Why am so feminine (a cis gendered, heterosexual male)?

Deleted by request

Why are you so feminine? Because you use terms like cis gendered unironically.

Your chart doesn't scream feminine to me, but nevertheless there seems to be some hits to your issues.

- Venus is angular in the 10th house. This shows that you may be known for being softer, affable, pleasant and in some sense, it *could* speak to your "girlyness". Also, you have both your MC degree and degree on the Pleiades, a star constellation that allegedly has ties to homosexuality.

According to Ptolemy they are of the nature of the Moon and Mars; and, to Alvidas, of Mars, Moon and Sun in opposition. They are said to make their natives wanton, ambitious, turbulent, optimistic and peaceful; to give many journeys and voyages, success in agriculture and through active intelligence; and to cause blindness, disgrace and a violent death. Their influence is distinctly evil and there is no astrological warrant for the oft-quoted passage Job (xxxviii. 31) "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades…?" which is probably a mistranslation. [Robson*, p.182.]

A note about the above: It has been said that many of the negative interpretations given by astrologers in the past to the Pleiades and other stars with feminine qualities was caused by prejudice against men with a homosexual leaning. Words like "evil influence", as in the above case, is likely to relate to homosexuality in men, an unmentionable word in Robson's days. Other substitutions were: "not a good omen with regard to relationships to the opposite sex", "disgrace", "immoral", "evil disposition". Homosexuality (in men) is only one of the many likely influences of the Pleiades, but not the predominant influence.

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The MC, as you might be aware, has to do with your reputation, among other things.

Mars is domiciled, but is averse to the ascendant (houses/signs averse to the ascendant are the 12th, 6th and 8th as they don't "see" the ascendant from these positions). So, your ascendant is unable to pick up the masculine energy that a pure Mars Aries would ideally bestow. Mars makes no contact with your ascendant ruler either, although it does dispose your moon which would put your deeper cognitive factors connected to a very masculine essence.

some things to chew on there.

I read your OP again, and it's interesting that you blame your feminine tendencies on your father's rearing style toward you. The ruler of your 4th house ,Jupiter, is also conjunct the Pleiades - showing how the early circumstances of your life might result in effeminate behaviour when grown.

based on the temperament of your chart (predominantly Phlegmatic) it can said that you wouldn't react with to your father's behaviour through active opposition or teasing rebelliousness (like a choleric or sanguine temperament might be inclined to) but internalizing it and going with the flow in as the phlegmatic isn't prone to conflict and dislike disruptive circumstances.

Temperament in astrology (specifically the astrology that I practice) is not the same as personality. Temperament is the underlying "psychological structure" of the personality. A person can have a fiery personality and still have a melancholic temperament, someone with a phlegmatic temperament can be expressive and very friendly etc. If you're interested, I can link you to a thread on another site that went really deep into temperament theory.

After sharing more, it seems that my quick appraisal of your chart wasn't too off the mark i.e. it doesn't scream femininity to me. Sure, your MC is conjunct a highly feminine constellation and you also have the two benefics angular, culminating and in a gregarious sign. Your ascendant ruler and a domiciled Sun is located in the 11th house, the house of friendships.

The insecurity and over cautiousness with women seems to be as a result of your Venus being opposed by Saturn. You can look it up to get a sense as to what is happening to you regarding the females in your life.

Some of what you're saying too, sounds like a coming of age period and you recently had a Saturn return which is seen as a maturation point in everyone's lives. Your dad seems a little too involved in your life for someone your age. What's that all about?

Strange how even your tastes in cars changed.

I think it's time you get into sports cars

Hi Hutch!

You have Jupiter opposite Moon, it does create an intense emotional life and may make you feel like a bipolar person. Your moon is also semisextile Uranus. I have Jupiter quincunx Moon and Moon opposite Uranus and I used to move all the time when I was younger. It was not a bad idea, it made me expand and learn, but I did not manage to avoid difficulties. I felt seriously challenged everywhere I went and I kept trying to move when I felt stuck to try to start over. Now I know that I have found the right location and I recently discovered that my moon is exactly conjunct the asteroid of the town I live in currently. I also felt a need to move away from my dad, it is definitely a good idea for you to avoid having contact with your father. It is not possible to fix relationships to narcissists.

I see that you have Uranus, Neptune and Saturn square Mars as well as Sun and Moon trine Mars and Mars quincunx ascendant. Neptune is in the fifth house. Have you ever felt drawn to dancing? It is a good way to express emotions and become more assertive, confident and spontaneous. It also gives you a good posture and body control. It makes it easier to choose how you want to present yourself physically. Some people that feel drawn to the Latin culture start to dance. There are for example many salsa communities everywhere in the world and joining them feels a bit like traveling to Latin America since people there are more open. With Jupiter opposite Moon you have the capacity to feel thrilling exciting sensations of joy as well as feeling really bad. You need to find a physical outlet for your emotions and stimulate your joy. And since your moon is in the third house you need to communicate your emotions. Therapy perhaps?

Moon trine Mars is a lovely aspect. Protective, nurturing, passionate.

You should try to find out which kind of masculinity you are drawn to. Men in Latinamerica, Italy, Greece and so on can be pretty good at courting women and at taking initiative and they are more emotionally expressive than men from colder climates.

I will post a link to a video of a man who has the same dancing style and personal vibe as someone I know. To me he is super manly, but within some social contexts he does not fit in at all and some have believed that he is gay. He has Moon opposite Jupiter like you and Mars in harsh aspects to Neptune and Uranus and his Mars is biquintile Pluto. Observe the man in the video. Within the social context he is in he is very popular and seen as an alpha male.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo-qLfloPA4

Dancing is very liberating in my opinion. However it may not be for you, you need to find what feels right for you.
You could make a long list of traits you see as manly and find male role models. Be critical of your own opinions because they are influenced by the society you grew up in.

Regarding your testosterone levels I have the following advice: Eat three organic brazil nuts per day, they contain zink and selenium needed for the testosterone production. Stress reduces testosterone and also your B-vitamin levels. You could buy a mix of B-vitamins and take them until the bottle is finished. They are important for your ability to absorb the food you eat, build muscles, have strong hair and so on. Also take D-vitamins if you are not exposed to the Sun, VERY important for your mood as well. Sugar and fast carbohydrates reduce the testosterone levels so avoid it as much as you can. Don´t eat lots of carbohydrates and make sure to eat enough protein. Exercise boosts your testosterone levels.

Your Sun is cusp Leo close to Cancer conjunct androgynous Mercury, Moon in Scorpio cusp Sag, rising sign Virgo and Venus in midheaven (Gemini) has an effect on males to have a personality not typically or average masculine. You identify as cisgendered and heterosexual male, while I'm a genderfluid male who is also straight. I'm a 8th house sun/moon Aquarius, Cancer ascendant, Venus in midheaven (Aries), sign ruler Uranus in Scorpio, Mercury in Pisces and Mars conjunct Jupiter and Saturn in Virgo while your Mars placement is in Aries . My natal chart exhibits a male who identifies as "half-female" or doesn't exclusively stay within the lines of biological sex.

generally mars square to Neptune will weaken the masculine characteristics in a man's chart.

rhau

Your mercury in cancer (feminen sign) semi-sextiles venus and also trines your moon.

Mercury is the way you think and communicate in (cancer) wouldn't that make someone more motherlike/receptive (feminen) in their expression of thoughts? trining the moon would just accentuate that.

moon is also in 3 house bringing the qualities of your (scorpio feminen) to your expressions.

venus in 10th = venusian public image and venus is a feminen planet.

neptune screams feminen to me for some reason and you have it trining your ASC.

also virgo rising is a feminen sign. Your node is in a feminen sign.

All those mars squares feel like blocks of marsian energy to me which would make you *feel* like your more feminen when you're actually just blocked in masculine or not allowing it to come through.

Honestly check out your mars, saturn and chiron for answers... I am not a professional at all but I notice that a lot of what's restricting/blocking us is within saturn, chiron and pluto.

hutch said:

Hello, I had a very belated puberty. In fact I've become more masculine just in the past several years and finally started putting muscles, etc. I'm 28, almost 29. I suspect I had a estrogen dominance for a while but thankfully my last tests showed my estrogen levels are normal and my testosterone levels are that of a 17 y/o guy (at 24, they were like those of a 50 y/o man, not nice).


I wonder if it was diet (I ate mostly carbs and sweets before) or something else? Mentally I feel a bit stronger, less anxiety, but still I feel like my feminine side/Anima is fighting for dominance with my male side all the time. Why is that, can you see it in my chart? Why did it overdevelop in my teens (coinciding with the 20 years of bad luck due to past life karma due to some astrologist) and why did my masculine side take a backseat? Will I ever reclaim it and embrace it? I sure hope so because even my gay friend told me I act/walk in a effeminate way lol. No wonder girls only take me as a friend.

I still have problems identifying with male celebs and listen mostly to female singers for example, but could that be due to my jerk of a dad (dad issues)? He's been verbally abusive and would often hit me. Will I ever become more masculine and embrace myself as I feel like living hostage to my female side? I definitely dig girls romantically and sexually but my behavior and gestures make them make assumptions so my love life has been non-existent.

I guess somehow my dad made me think all guys are jerks down there or his criticism made me feel not good enough of a man, so I subconsciously avoided/couldn't relate to other guys? Fortunately, lately I've made more and more male friends, so apparently I started relating to/with them more, which is just what I've always wanted. I train more, do more sports and I actually enjoy them. In my "dark ages", I just listened to music but now I can finally do something I really enjoy. I remember loving playing sports as a kid and I loved watching wrestling on TV and even horror movies, which much later, in my bad days I find too scary haha. And my female friends no longer act like I'm just one of the girls, which is welcome.

I know I have bad karmic deed to pay since age 10 till age 30 (totally unfair if you ask me and why I'll never visit a church again) so the past almost 20 years have been very very sad, depressing, rocky. I was called all possible names, emotionally abused (my whole high school hated me for no reason and I was emotionally bullied, surprisingly mostly by females, even later in uni I was bullied by them...so I have trouble with trusting groups of girls/women but I let go of the resentment). Anyway, why are my masculine/feminine energies so volatile?

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Venus in Gemini is the wife. Gemini Twins masculine energy. There is probably a split between masculine and feminine in that energy.

Mars is masculine, the warrior, and in Aries which is masculine. There is masculinity there to be a military/spiritual warrior mentally.

Moon Scorpio Is mother and feminine energy. Scorpio tends to be dominate and more masculine to me when I deal with Scorpio Moons. Scorpio is listed feminine energy, but in my experience, it’s the disciplinarian feminine and controlling. Stubborn and in the ego. Temper tantrums. Emotion and water.

Jupiter Gemini. Is the husband and again Gemini Twins, and Split, two sides and inner struggle.

Mercury Cancer usually does play into sexuality, and Cancer is feminine energy, and related with the Moon and Mother.

Saturn in Sagittarius is Karma, and also Masculine energy.

Pisces is passive and feminine energy. Chiron Cancer feminine energy.

I can see why you would be conflicted with all the water Pisces, Cancer, Scorpio being feminine and Gemini in the mix.

With Virgo as your AC, this is purity, purification and the way you appear to the world. Virgo is Masculine energy. With North Node in Pisces as your descendent you can either appear to abandon other people in relationships, not showing up in life, by escaping into entertainment, addictions, or others around you can being the same thing mirroring you.

Self-abandonment vs. being abandoned. Rejecting self, vs. Rejecting others. Being Rejected by them. Aries in 8th house can draw plutonian/mars relationships, and you’ll have to decipher what is healthy and not healthy for you. It can be very transforming in the sense, it’s getting a grip on your emotions, thoughts, and feelings, setting personal boundaries with other Aries/Scorpio’s and not allowing yourself to be caught in the domination versus submission co-dependent relationships. Emotional and mental power struggles.

Taurus/Sagittarius will be your teachers in some of these relationships.
Uranus in Sagittarius may have something to do with being hurt be religious/spiritual/psychological theories, dogma, beliefs, and having to heal those inner wounds within yourself. Not allowing it to get to you emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically, and staying true to your authentic self.
Neptune in Capricorn in the 5th house of Leo is seeing through the illusions of Entertainment, Systems, Structures, your Peers, and it seems to be something Scorpio Pluto Generation uses is fantasy, fiction, and illusion. Who are they behind the scenes. Dig deeper than face value of their Leo Role Playing on the Internet, Chats, Media. What’s their agenda and motivation.

Scorpio Pluto and Scorpio Moon in the third house has a lot to do with higher communications, thoughts, what you’re thinking, what you believe, and how you process this information in your mind. Are you warring with yourself with negative inner criticism and taking the external worlds inner criticism and turning it on yourself? As third house would also be your neighbors, peers, people you work with, surround yourself. Not allowing them to influence your thoughts, emotions, and feelings.

Saturn in Sagittarius in 4th may be what you’ve inherited within your family tree as negative and positive beliefs, or dysfunctional ways of relating through their jobs, careers, family tree from past generations, and sifting through the religious/philosophical/psychological karma they’ve passed down to you and taking out what doesn’t apply. You may have had educational parents.

You have to heal your Venus (Feminine) The women who have harmed you emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, sexually. You may be denying this somewhat, but also Cancer is gravitating toward the feminine, because it’s more nurturing, sensitive, giving, receiving to your Identity.

You have to heal your Mars/Jupiter by accepting you may be the Feminine Masculine.

I would encourage you to go take a Meyer’s Brigg’s Personality Test, because I don’t know if I’m right but you may be an INFJ/INFP, INTJ/INTP, ESFP, ESFJ, and this tends to be the feminine and women and men on the planet, versus the masculine who are ISTJ, ISTP, ESTJ, ESTP, ENTJ, ENTP. Introverts vs. Extroverts. And this all about dominance versus submission in the world.

That will probably give you some answers. Jung found the psychological types from Astrology, it’s just easier to break down that way how it impacts your life.

To be honest I think you're going to be the type who finds out he's gay in his 30's when he's married or something. I get a strong gay vibe from you too! lol and I'm gay.

Hi,

You have a Virgo Asc., and, Virgo is a sign known to be a bit shy and submissive. Also, the ruler of the Asc. is in Cancer, which, is also a feminine sign known for being soft and emotional. So, those qualities come naturally to you, and, as you know, in our society, we live a lot by stereotypes, so these qualities are not per se associated with men. Have you have people tell you that you come across as soft and shy?

Luckily (depends\ing on the way you look at it), your Venus (likes and dislikes) is not in a water sign as well, but in Gemini - a rather boisterous sign.

hutch said:

Yep, no wonder I have this thought it might be better to just end it. If there's reincarnation I might have better luck next time. But seriously, as a chart cannot be changed I prefer to destroy and start anew, with a new chart...because this is not a life, this is pure hell. Especially since the asc. becomes stronger with age.<br />
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Having a Virgo asc. is terrible. I wonder how can its energy be destroyed/diminished? Move to a Mars line (astrocartography)? What can be done with this disgusting chart before I get violent with me (or someone else).<br />
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I was thinking of going to work for the army (less feminine energy there). I get pukey in female-dominated environment and I am fed up with the way they talk, their interests, their behavior. In fact the women I root for in movies are always those strong ones that treat other females as **** and don't have many friends. I'd love to have a GF or wife but the more time I spend with more than a few females the worse I feel. Worst thing is all those fem people wanting to be my friend, that's disgusting. "I don't want to be your friend, either be sth more, a gf to me or get the hell outta my life!" I'm so glad I started dropping female friends like that, next time I will be more violent and break sth. <b>Why do they assume I'm that kind?</b> I NEVER had any female friends in my childhood when I was happy. And the more fem friends I ghost/ditch, the better I feel. They just suck all my energy. Ok it's certain I'll never had a Gf as they all just see me as their friend (beta orbiter haha), so maybe it's time to show them I don't want their f***** friendship.<br /><br />
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Btw it might be a coincidence but Virgo, Cancer and Gemini people always cause me much suffering, drama and pain and I often get physically sick from their energies. Most of my abusers were those signs along with Libra (my dad) and Taurus (feminine). My flatmate causes me much drama and it turned out he's a Cancer...I can barely stand him.

But I fear my repressed anger. I fear I might physically attack someone if I get pushed again. There is only so much drama and emotional abuse you can take and in the last 16 years I've had enough. I am really scared how much anger I've accumulated but don't know any way to chall3nge it rather than (self)destruction.

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Remember that the 7th house rules projections.. (what we do not claim within ourselves and project onto others) and your DSC is PISCES. <------- Big big culprit. I know because I share the same asc/dsc.

Feminen qualities are receptive. It's creative and formless, as well as empathetic. leaving the allowance of things to happen. Are you like this? Are you more passive? do you LISTEN more then speak?? do you REACT more than ACT? Do you ALLOW things to occur or MAKE them occur.

You want to balance. Not diminish one by overcompensating the other. I think you have an out of balance yin energy which is making you feel like you're less masculine.

First.. the people in your life (woman) regardless if they're feminen; if they're not contributing to your well being or causing blocks- they should not be there in the first place...

An independant/strong hero type of women displays more YANG energy then yin which is considered MASCULINE. She is not displaying a yin energy.

I personally don't think it's right to value one modality because union and balance need BOTH polarities.

I'm speaking from a similar perspective. As I am a girl, I had thought I had displayed an immense amount of masculine traits.. as well as being surrounded by it my entire life (which is very true with pluto conj. ic and mars trine asc). The key was to balance my out-of-wack yang energy. Expressing it properly instead of negatively.. which began to eradicate my hate for masculine type energy.. because I would want to over power/dominate the boys around me because I disliked that they were like that...

and are you 100000000% sure youre hetero? If you are cool, but if you are not make sure not to suppress.. it's a pain in the *** when you're doing innerwork.. and you should probably really evaluate.

OH AND WELCOME TO THE GEMINI LIFE BABY. Gemini is androgynous.... so we like to flip the gender topic around and play both polarity expressions with ease.

And might I add that you have free will. Your chart is karma you're dealing with... don't project your chart.. these are natural influences; not fate.


Oh and...My dad is a TAURUS, CAP LIBRA... definitely impacted a lot for me... but the more you blame others for your internal conditioning the more you fall into the victim complex.

Because you're a scorpio moon.. the only thing you can do is LET GO. Seriously. The whole 'self sabotage/ repressed anger' is pointless. Literally. Pointless. What are you going to get from that? nothing but more *feelings*. How about instead you start working/healing on yourself instead of destroying... but honestly that's YOUR choice not mine.

Root chakra work. Yin balancing. Healing of father issues. That's what I suggest.

hutch said:

Yes I am hetero. In fact that was the only reason I get close to females - expecting either love or sex. I started avoiding/ditching friends with too much feminine energy, even if male and I really feel better. I often have verbal fights with my gay flatmate, he's too feminine for me to live without getting sick. Don't get me wrong - I love feminibe energy but in girls I share the bed with and as I'm not into guys, I am leaving this accomodation soon. A person is the sum of the 5 people most often around them so if you're always surrounded with female energy your masculine side gets repressed. It's high time I rebel and ditch those influences as they always make me feel bad. I need just few feminine people in my life - my mom and a gf/wife, maybe a daughter too.

But I am angry as there are less and less male only clubs etc. How can you grow up and become a man when you have no masculine role models? And at school the teachers (all female) repressed boys' natural masculinity. I was taught that it's bad.

Anyway, let's focus on solutions. I wonder how does one work on roit chakra and balance the yin? Binaural beats, sports? I already shoot my T levels through the roof lol. I avoid sweets, sugar, anything too emotional like love movies. I avoid them also because I never liked them in the first place. One of my theories is that excessive masturbation might be to blame lol as I turn asexual when I overindulge. When I keep my hands off from me I like breasts more and more. Maybe wanking diminishes the yang? Strangely when I sleep with a girl I don't have the same loss of maleenergy? In fact I feel recharged. But when I do it alone I get all kinds of emotional and physical problems. My happiest days were before I discovered masturbation and when I took a break from it. But everyone says I should do it as it's good?!

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I think it's important to heal your perception on the feminine. There has to be balance of the yin and yang. The Middle way. One way or the other, you're swinging to much to the right and to much to the left.

All feminine are not bad. What you're talking about is the Introvert women versus the Extrovert women. Basically nurturer vs. disciplinarian. Both women and men hold that feminine and masculine energy within themselves. You're missing the point.
There is the physical gender, but this is not the feminine and masculine energy within the masculine and feminine. There is both Venus and Mars in all of us. There is both light and dark in ever zodiac.
There is no easy way out of balancing the yin and yang. And it's your healing that liberates you from other people's projections and beliefs about you. Hating women or men is not the answer.

There are plenty of men groups out there. You probably just aren't finding them. Which is the spartan warrior mentality. And fortunately, the ego gets way out of control when you swing to much into the masculine and it becomes domineering, violent, and destructive.

What we're all trying to accomplish equilibrium. Equal balance of the feminine and masculine instead of swaying to much in Matriarchy and to much into the Patriarchy. The end of dominance and submission, and slavery.

I read through the rest of the replies and they are a bit funny. Whether your hiding your homosexuality is a non-issue to me, but if you want an objective eye as to how your posts are coming off, it's almost as if you want to jump into a masculine environment because you're into them. It's important that you don't go to other extreme and discard women out of your life. That would be counter-productive.

You have a problem that you want to remedy and it seems like the best steps to take is action oriented and not more introspection. In lieu of that here are a couple of things I will suggest to you that you can act upon.

1. Watch more masculine oriented movies. Two recent movies I watched that I'd say has a true masculine spirit to them is The Gladiator, No Country for Old Men and The Counselor. Don't just "root for the hero" or whatever, look crtitically at how the men in these movies operate and see if you can gain a better understanding of what being masculine is. If you can also assume the skin of the characters in the movie and feel it, all the better. Notice the philosophy of the characters and how they view the world.

Masculine movies, in my mind, are those ones that treat the material with a certain dryness and starkness, not over the top and overly dramatic, but raw unvarnished, unapologetic and real. High crescendo music and explosions is not my idea of masculine movies.

2. If you can, find ways to work on blue collar job sites. This will put you in touch with men of a certain ilk. No one will be there to cheer-lead you or baby you, you learn what you need to learn to do the job and you do the job accordingly. Observe the men in these environments and learn from them.

3. Study the four chief virtues and try to apply them in your life. Also take up any philosophy that teaches how to have equanimity and strength in the face of the most life altering crises in your life. For example, Buddhism, Stoicism or Bushido. (NB - even Christianity can teach you this but you're more likely to get sucked into the modern day cotton candy version of Christianity which is counterproductive to what you want to achieve.)

4. Don't shun females completely.

5. Learn to stand on your own. Learn to stop seeking validation from others. be content with being the odd man out if that means holding strong to your convictions.

6. Take up hiking or mountain climbing.

7. Take vacations in difficult environments and learn how to cope.

8. Don't aim to mimic or put on an image masculinity. Embody it.

9. Remove every single politically correct term out of your lexicon. You can have respect for people without resorting to belittling/babying them because of their supposed faults. Inherent in politically correct circles is a psychology of victimhood and being tossed about your circumstances due to inherencies in your character/life situation. Get out of that thinking process and you're on your way to achieving your aims. Ceding any ground there is an implicit acceptance to that philosophy on life. Is that how you want to live?

conspiracy theorist said:

Temperament in astrology (specifically the astrology that I practice) is not the same as personality. Temperament is the underlying "psychological structure" of the personality. A person can have a fiery personality and still have a melancholic temperament, someone with a phlegmatic temperament can be expressive and very friendly etc. If you're interested, I can link you to a thread on another site that went really deep into temperament theory.

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Can you link me? I'm interested.

I don't understand how temperament and personality are different.

Is it like the difference between Mercury (temperament) and Sun (personality)?

Could you also give an example. How does a fiery person have a melancholic temperament? Like how...

AppLeo said:

Can you link me? I'm interested.

I don't understand how temperament and personality are different.

Is it like the difference between Mercury (temperament) and Sun (personality)?

Could you also give an example. How does a fiery person have a melancholic temperament? Like how...

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I'll link here so everyone can get up to speed.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3878

Ct, thanks for the link. Very interesting read. I do like the idea of ones general temperament channeling through focal points. So, is temperament gauged by the strength of elements? The thread didnt make it that clear. One poster said that its not so simple as tallying up the planets in signs, but obviously some planets will be stronger than others.

Also,

conspiracy theorist said:

9. Remove every single politically correct term out of your lexicon. You can have respect for people without resorting to belittling/babying them because of their supposed faults. Inherent in politically correct circles is a psychology of victimhood and being tossed about your circumstances due to inherencies in your character/life situation. Get out of that thinking process and you're on your way to achieving your aims. Ceding any ground there is an implicit acceptance to that philosophy on life. Is that how you want to live?

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This is so true. Great for not only men but ladies too.

Phoenix Venus said:

Ct, thanks for the link. Very interesting read. I do like the idea of ones general temperament channeling through focal points. So, is temperament gauged by the strength of elements? The thread didnt make it that clear. One poster said that its not so simple as tallying up the planets in signs, but obviously some planets will be stronger than others.

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Not exactly. The amount of planets/points in an element will have an influence on the temperament only if those planets/points are key in finding out the temperament.

For example - http://i.imgur.com/Y25CMcD.gif

Say you have a person with 3 planets in water and that's the most planets in a single element. You wouldn't automatically peg them as having a phlegmatic temperament. Why? Because those 3 planets might not have any relevance to the temperament at all. Looking closer at the chart, we see that the ascendant (which is seen as a major personal point in the chart more so than the Sun in traditional practice) is in Leo. That raises the amount of choler (fire) in the chart. The Sun is a naturally choleric planet so more choler is added as the Sun rules the chart. The sign of the Moon (another important personal point) is in fire - so more choler. The element of the ruler of the moon is important to look at when gauging temperament. We see that the Moon's ruler, the Sun, is located in a water sign, so some phlegm is added to the chart.

The season is also important when looking at the temperament. They divide like so:

- Spring (Sun in Aries, Taurus, Gemini) is sanguine
- Summer (Sun in Cancer, Leo, Virgo) is choleric
- Autumn (Sun in Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius) is melancholic
- Winter (Sun in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces) is phlegmatic

In this chart, the Sun is in Cancer so therefore we add more choler to the temperament.

Overall then, we have a chart that is predominantly choleric with slight phlegmatic. There is also some slight melancholy picked up due to Saturn's partile aspect to the ascending degree.

Or in the case of my own chart which is predominantly fire, yet still my temperament is 50/50 Sanguine/Choleric.

One major disagreement in regard to temperament analysis is the whole matter of the importance of 1st house planets and there effect on the temperament (in this case, planets that are in the same sign as the ascendant). Some count them and some don't. In the example chart, if you were to count the first house planet, you would have gotten some more phlegmatic in the final temperament, if you don't then you have a very pure choleric temperament.

As was stated in that thread, temperament is rough work so good enough is usually good enough.

Interesting Ct. I'll have to chew on this and let it marinate some. What would you say my temperament is based on my chart? Why dont you have a melancholic temperament with that stellium you have?