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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #226  
Unread 02-02-2015, 03:54 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Re: the recent Dirius-Muchacho debate:

Sadly, people do not always understand themselves very well. And probably you see this with a few people you know. Maybe they tend to act badly or strangely around other people, then wonder why they have few friends. The abusive alcoholic who doesn't understand why his wife left him.

A common type of question in "read my chart" threads is, "What career am I best suited for?" or "What would be a good major for me in college?" Periodically you see OPs from women saying, "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or from anyone, "Why doesn't my money work out?" They might be perplexed about their romantic or parent-child relationship, and hope for some insights.
I could go on in this fashion-- but, no-- many people do not understand themselves very well and they hope that astrology will help them with some answers.

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Unread 02-02-2015, 04:07 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

I think I explained this above, but for anyone whose short-term memory is comparable to mine-- no, Pluto does not equal Mars plus Saturn.

Mars is your innate aggression and assertiveness. In a man's chart it indicates his type of masculinity. In a heterosexual woman's chart, it indicates the type of man she finds attractive. We could also review its list of rulerships, like soldiers and athletes.

Mars isn't subtle. His aggression might be of the, "I'll punch your lights out!" variety.

Saturn shows where and how we feel frustrated and inadequate; but with attention to Saturn's lessons of frugality, hard work, patience, &c it can give us tremendous strengths of self-discipline. So actually Mars plus Saturn could be a good combination for a professional athlete who needs raw talent, but who also needs hours of practice and discipline. Saturn rules old age and decay.

If you read my longer posts on pp. 3-4, I've tried to explain Pluto in a way that distinguishes it from Saturn and Mars. But briefly, neither Saturn or Mars are into a transformation of one's self or society. A dysfunctional Pluto is a lot more underhanded and scheming than Mars, and lacks the not-good-enough feeling of Saturn.

In my yesterday's list of Plutonian people and events, I gave the example of Elizabeth Smart. She made a splash in the news as a young teenager, when she was abducted from her home by a mentally ill man who kept her a prisoner and repeatedly raped her. She was finally able to free herself, and eventually face this man in court, where he was convicted. Today she runs a foundation dedicated to helping victims of kidnapping, imprisonment, and sexual abuse. Very transformative. http://elizabethsmartfoundation.org/

The thing about transformation is that oftentimes "they way out is the way through." Something has to metaphorically decay and die for something new and better to take it's place. But this isn't a simplistic "Aries is to Spring as Capricorn is to Winter" schema. With transformation, the new event of more mature person is significantly more aware, or more powerful. With Plutonian events like the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima, society can never undo its terrible power unleashed on humanity. But we can try to use nuclear power for positive good, such as nuclear medicine dedicated to saving lives.

I sometimes wonder if people who don't think Pluto makes a difference in horoscope interpretation simply gave up on it too early in their studies. Ditto for Uranus and Neptune.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-02-2015 at 04:17 AM.
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  #228  
Unread 02-02-2015, 04:19 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Re: psychological astrology, I agree, you don't need astrology to tell you who you are. Ideally, the question "Who am I?" shouldn't even arise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDbPYoaAiyc

My apologies for interjecting this sound clip but the lyrics are relevant. lol.....

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  #229  
Unread 02-02-2015, 05:29 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

[QUOTE=waybread;598986]
Quote:
The thing about transformation is that oftentimes "they way out is the way through." Something has to metaphorically decay and die for something new and better to take it's place. But this isn't a simplistic "Aries is to Spring as Capricorn is to Winter" schema. With transformation, the new event of more mature person is significantly more aware, or more powerful.

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if people who don't think Pluto makes a difference in horoscope interpretation simply gave up on it too early in their studies. Ditto for Uranus and Neptune.
I sometimes have a hard time grasping how one can not see the relevance or the actual energy in action that correlates with the essence of these planets. However, all of my inner planets are affected by the outer planetary bodies with Uranus being my personal planet, so I know first hand how they play out with in me. Pluto, I most certainly recognize and is one of the first planets that I look for in all charts. It has a very intense signature whether it be by transit, solar arc, or progression. or transiting Pluto affecting a progressed planet. For me I can not simply see how to explain all of the events in my life without using the outer planets at all. I can not even see how to leave them out of the natal interpretation...I just can't. even in Horary...I see their effect quite beautifully, so.... to those who offer guidance without there use; I wonder; do you look at a person and only see the flesh, the eyes, the nails, the hair....Do you know that there is something more that the eyes do not see? Muscle, Bone, sinew........energy...soul....
We have stared at the heavens for as long as breath has been granted to our race, always knowing that there is something more that explains what the eye can not see.

In my chart; If I were to only see venus sitting in the 8th descending into the 7th / the western horizon, I could not explain the very depths of love that I am capable of within all of my relationships. How I am able to reach inside of another and show them who they are and accept them with love. I could not explain this feeling of what I am willing to do to enact what I feel is just for me and for those that I love with out Pluto's involvement. The pain that I feel as the planet transits now even is something much more intense than the energy of mars or saturn combined. It offers something much more in depth, then being cut with a blade or smashed by a stone. It is like a burn that travels to the bone. It feels like ice. It renders me speechless at times and I witness the change through all of this pain on such a level that is purely intimate with death. When I have looked at my chart and others with out the outer planets and have put forth an honest effort to delineate in a traditional sense, I just don't see how any other planetary combination can combine to create the same sense of energy that pluto or the other planets do. So; can any "traditional" astrologers provide an intimate look that is effective in description that can truly mirror the intensity that I have reflected here?
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Unread 02-02-2015, 05:57 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...35&postcount=1

Farah Fawcett passed away on June 25, 2009 shortly before 9:30 AM local time in Santa Monica, California.

Was it Jupiter sextile her Venus, or it's nasty square to her Jupiter that signaled her death? Maybe it was the Sun conjunct her Moon? Or could it have been dangerous Mercury's trine to her Sun? I can't leave out the hard opposition of the Moon to her Sun, even though it occurs every month. Such a plethora of tight orbed aspects but none of them or any others in the charts as tight as transit Pluto conjunct the natal Descendant within 2 minutes of arc, whether they are measured in longitude or right ascension.

And where were transit Mars and Saturn at the time?
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Unread 02-02-2015, 06:36 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I actually did comment. I see the influence of Pluto but I disagree with a lot of what the modern interpretations say about what that influence actually is. That's why I said the notion to see Pluto as just a mixture of Mars and Saturn is interesting but not actually valid. I can see, however, how folks can come to that conclusion after reading the usual modern cook books. So in that sense, I can understand the traditionalists and appreciate your (plural 'you') comments. Current definitions of Pluto in astrology are not very satisfying. Point taken. To then say that Pluto is irrelevant and doesn't have anything to add because it doesn't fit into the tried and tested models is a rather bold statement, especially since no one here knows with absolute certainty why astrology actually works (myself included), we all just know how it works, and Pluto (and the other outer planets) force us to rethink our model and approach. With the emergence of the electric universe model, the old cosmological models seem to be outdated now, and with it the old astrological models. So, there's a lot of research and development to do.
Well said, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There's somethings correct with the current beliefs pertaining to Pluto.
At least two Astrological Parts utilizing the Ascendant have been given rather appropriate titles of influence. {How anyone figured those out prior to the internet, computer ephemeri that can cast a chart in seconds instead of the hours it used to take and with assured accuracy, internet astrological forums, such as AW's right here, where-in one can share results, findings, observations and opinions with other Astrologers in numbers even in the hundreds in a single day, is quite amazing, to me anyways.}

The Part of Libido which is derived from the formula Asc. + Pluto - Venus, has been revealing itself to be rather appropriate...although I believe the "Part" in question to be somewhat more than just that.

I find it to be about self gratification of such degree that one takes no thought as to anyone elses' interests or consideration as to their feelings or even repercussions if the desired has become a fixation.
Thus with only just that much about said 'Part" being satisfactorily accepted a few members of this forum, along with my self, were able to hypothesize what the opposite formula, i.e. Asc. + Venus - Pluto, represents.

We've tested this to about a couple of dozen natal charts to date and have yet to see one result that gave me any reason to doubt the theory is correct.
That particular formula for an Astrological part was titled the "Part of Influence". What we hypothesized is that while the other formula produces a point on the natal horoscope is about self gratification at someone else's expense, the opposite formula produces a point that is about "Self Sacrifice" even 'Martyrdom'.
We have had only positive results with this theory so far.

Just because it is small doesn't mean it has no weight of influence. As it sits on a single degree of the Zodiac for an average of 248 days a year it is of indomitable will. Yet I also believe it is imbued with a powerful influence that is independent of it's orbital positioning.

Also, I found the two author/astrologers Sakoian and Acker to be highly accurate in their description of the natal aspect of Pluto conjunct the Ascendant in their "Astrologer's Handbook" and as to date, as near as I can tel that is also true as to their assessment of Pluto conjunct the mid haven, as well. ...and not to mention most of the other aspects Pluto has in effect with the other eight planets, the Luminaries and the Moons' Nodes, that is those that I have personally and those that I've been able to find in other folks natal horoscopes that show Pluto is of affect upon them to begin with.
As I stated earlier not everyone is affected by all the planets.
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Last edited by piercethevale; 02-02-2015 at 06:52 AM. Reason: I added the last two sentences.
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  #232  
Unread 02-02-2015, 06:40 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...35&postcount=1

Farah Fawcett passed away on June 25, 2009 shortly before 9:30 AM local time in Santa Monica, California.

Was it Jupiter sextile her Venus, or it's nasty square to her Jupiter that signaled her death? Maybe it was the Sun conjunct her Moon? Or could it have been dangerous Mercury's trine to her Sun? I can't leave out the hard opposition of the Moon to her Sun, even though it occurs every month. Such a plethora of tight orbed aspects but none of them or any others in the charts as tight as transit Pluto conjunct the natal Descendant within 2 minutes of arc, whether they are measured in longitude or right ascension.

And where were transit Mars and Saturn at the time?
You can determine your date of death and cause by utilizing the app found at this link. http://www.hukkubandar.com/dapp/


That is if you aren't fearful to know of which.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 06:48 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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No, it's a married man. Sorry!
Alas, I never get the breaks.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 06:58 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
You can determine your date of death and cause by utilizing the app found at this link. http://www.hukkubandar.com/dapp/


That is if you aren't fearful to know of which.
I am going to die some day. That is all I need to know about that.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 07:28 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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I am going to die some day. That is all I need to know about that.

My thoughts exactly.
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  #236  
Unread 02-02-2015, 07:54 AM
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Konrad, since this hospital record does not appear to have been rounded, I think it's pretty close. This person definitely comes across to me as Sagittarius rising. He got married in late September, 2007-- I think the 29th or 30th.
Waybread, a few minutes difference would change the sign, and no offence, but your definition of Sagittarius rising would be different to mine. I can't do any rectification so the dates are not of use.
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  #237  
Unread 02-02-2015, 08:52 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...35&postcount=1

Farah Fawcett passed away on June 25, 2009 shortly before 9:30 AM local time in Santa Monica, California.

Was it Jupiter sextile her Venus, or it's nasty square to her Jupiter that signaled her death? Maybe it was the Sun conjunct her Moon? Or could it have been dangerous Mercury's trine to her Sun? I can't leave out the hard opposition of the Moon to her Sun, even though it occurs every month. Such a plethora of tight orbed aspects but none of them or any others in the charts as tight as transit Pluto conjunct the natal Descendant within 2 minutes of arc, whether they are measured in longitude or right ascension.

And where were transit Mars and Saturn at the time?
[deleted/modified attacking comments - Moderator] Don't use transits alone to time things. Here is my explanation of Fawcett's death:

Moon is Hyleg, Jupiter Alcocoden. Valens states that the bounds of the malefics and, via its role as Alcocoden, Jupiter can kill the native. Doubly so since Jupiter rules the setting sign. Signs of death are planets in the 8th, and the 8th from Fortune. Fortune in Capricorn, 8th from Fortune is Leo. Sun in Leo conjoined Fortune and in the 8th sign seems pertinent. Its opposition to Saturn should be noted.

At the time of death, the lord of the directed Hyleg was Jupiter/Leo partnered by Venus. The annual profection had moved into Leo. In the Solar Revolution (see chart at the end of the post), Jupiter was transiting Capricorn, in fall and in the 8th sign. The Sun was returning to the 8th sign in conjunction with this Jupiter. Saturn was transiting Leo, and this without the aspect of a benefic. So to sum up, we have the larger time-lord and the smaller (bound lord of directed Hyleg and lord of the annual profection) transiting the 8th sign. We have lord of the natal 8th, Saturn, transiting the sign of the annual profection which itself is unprotected by benefics.

At the time of death, the native moved into a Sagittarius monthly profection thus bringing forth Jupiter's significations that month (death). 9 days before the death, Jupiter stationed in the sign opposed to the annual profection (stakes of the sign of the profected ASC are important for timing) and also opposed to the current bounds of the directed Hyleg (Jupiter/Leo). The daily profection on the morning of the 25 of June 2009 was in Leo with transiting Saturn.

If one understands the seven visible planets and applies them logically, life events become easier to see. Transits become important in showing when happenings already foretold by the governing time-lords will manifest. Even then, as Fawcett's chart shows, tight degree aspects are not always necessary and planet-to-planet aspects are not either.


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  #238  
Unread 02-02-2015, 09:23 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Lets see if this link works to facebook, before i comment, or i need another link:-

https://www.facebook.com/robert.hand...80093985446750
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  #239  
Unread 02-02-2015, 09:36 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

It must be noted that i follow mundane astrology, so can be rusty with birth charts, but i love Robert Hand, and always follow his links to mundane astrology, as an overall astrologer i find him the best, for fixed stars i follow Bernadette Brady!

With the Ingress Charts above, i find the Washington Chart fascinating regarding the Ukrainian Crises, tap on chart on previous link thread section to make larger.

Robert Hand uses Pluto in mundane astrology, and JupiterAsc will be interested in the parans regarding Washington DC , as Jupiter and Alnilam, Belt of Orion are rising at location at 12:53:06.

Obviously different ways to value mundane astrology, but Robert Hand wouldn't have come by insight by not using Pluto!
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  #240  
Unread 02-02-2015, 09:47 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

When you buy a programme, you must keep up with Summer time changes, Brady's Starlight i bought before 2007, when USA changed Summer Time, link below:-

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.co.uk/d...a/dst-2007.htm

Thus as Robert Hands Chart shows 12:57:06 for Washington DC, my chart shows 11:57:06, i hope it is obvious for hour difference, fixed star chart on private members download, showing Alnilam rising with Jupiter at location:-
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Unread 02-02-2015, 10:09 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Sorry wrong chart on members download, right one below, last one above four minutes out:-
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

It must be noted that i follow mundane astrology,
so can be rusty with birth charts, but i love Robert Hand, and always follow his links to mundane astrology,
as an overall astrologer i find him the best,
for fixed stars i follow Bernadette Brady!

With the Ingress Charts above, i find the Washington Chart fascinating
regarding the Ukrainian Crises, tap on chart on previous link thread section to make larger.

Robert Hand uses Pluto in mundane astrology,
and JupiterAsc will be interested in the parans regarding Washington DC ,
as Jupiter and Alnilam, Belt of Orion are rising at location at 12:53:06.

Obviously different ways to value mundane astrology,
but Robert Hand wouldn't have come by insight by not using Pluto!

One orbit of the sun by pluto requires 248 years approximately

therefore

no human being can experience a pluto return in one lifetime

thus the dwarf planet has nothing to add to natal astrology
since the seven classical planets already provide answers

and even for MUNDANE ASTROLOGICAL DELINEATION the seven classical planets provide more than sufficient data


pluto is only one object of many similar objects in the Kuiper Belt
many more similar objects are being discovered daily
so if dwarf planet pluto is relevant then so are all the other dwarf planets
yet no one is creating a furore and demanding that all dwarf planets form part of natal chart delineation
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Unread 02-02-2015, 10:53 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

For those following and reading the topic (without commenting), what konrad posted might sound a bit confusing actually, if one has never read about hyleg/alcocoden/anareta.

**just adding this for any newby readers, a short basic description of the technique

The predominant planet in the chart, usually known as "reagent of the chart" is called the Hyleg. It is usually one of the 2 luminaries (sun or moon). Most of the life longevity predictions techniques are done by following the path from the Hyleg's initial starting point, up to a 90° arc.

For example with the hyleg at 2° Aries, it would travel up to 2° Cancer..(if not killed before by anaretas)

Essentially:

- the hyleg is the planet representing life (it is usually the predominant luminary).
- the alcocoden, the planet that acts as reagent of the hyleg.
- anareta de planets that hurt the hyleg (the malefics + the other luminary).

The hyleg falling into malefic terms, aspecting anaretas, etc through its 90° pathway will hurt or kill the hyleg. The hyleg passing through benefic terms, aspected by benefics, save the hyleg.

Basicly, the technique tries to find out if the Hyleg will die before reaching the 90° arc.

----------------------------------------

Btw I was chekcing both charts, I must ask though, in the chart posted by Konrad the moon is at gemini? (the one posted by unique_astrology is at cancer)....could any of the charts be wrong with daylight saving time or something?

In the original chart posted, pluto doesn't ever actually touch the descendant degree.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 11:01 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
For those following and reading the topic (without commenting), what konrad posted might sound a bit confusing actually, if one has never read about hyleg/alcocoden/anareta.

**just adding this for any newby readers

Most of the life longevity predictions techniques are done assuming a path from the Hyleg's initial starting point, up to a 90°.

Essentially:

- the hyleg is the planet representing life (it is the predominant luminary).
- the alcocoden, the planet that acts as reagent of the hyleg.
- anareta de planets that hurt the hyleg (the malefics + the other luminary).

The hyleg falling into malefic terms, aspecting anaretas, etc through its 90° pathway will hurt or kill the hyleg.

----------------------------------------

Btw I was chekcing both charts, I must ask though, in the chart posted by Konrad the moon is at gemini? (the one posted by unique_astrology is at cancer)....could any of the charts be wrong with daylight saving time or something?

Btw I checked the original chart posted, pluto doesn't ever actually touch the descendant degree.
Dirius,

I use the Sidereal zodiac, Lahiri measurement. And yes, thank you for clarifying the terms. I sometimes forget that these techniques are not as common as they should be. In time, when we are better able to reconstruct the older systems and, more importantly, are better able to apply their principles to the current age then I believe more people will go to them due to their profoundness in talking of our human experience.

You know, you're right. Pluto turned Retrograde before touching the DSC, by longitude anyway. Thanks for that, I never even bothered checking. I think I'm a little too trusting.

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Unread 02-02-2015, 11:04 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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I only posted in direct response to the querent's first post,
thus I haven't followed any of the extraneous discussion that is occurring here,
but if I may intrude just to say... ?

...That the chart you posted waybread is most interesting to me personally
as I see a unique synastry beween it and my own natal chart.


...by the oddest of coincidences,
the Sun is conj. my Pluto which was at 20* Leo 48' when I was born.

In addition, Mars conj. my Part of Play, Venus trine my Mars in the 5th deg. of Gemini, Uranus conj. my Part of Nobility & Honor, Chiron conj. my natal Venus, Jupiter conj. my vertex and the I.C. conj. my Part of Libido/Energy, have certainly piqued my interest... and I use the term "piqued" most conservatively.

If the chart native is a woman and single... introduce me... I promise to be on my best behavior, trust me.
The 'oddest of coincidences has an obvious explanation

pluto's journey around the sun already takes 248 long years
and so
when retrograde, pluto is found at the same degree for many months

and in fact
pluto was at the same degree due to retrogradation from 1951 - 1952

so then
tens of hundreds of millions of people born 1951 - 1952 all have pluto at the same degree


so much for 'the unique synastry of pluto'
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

No, it's a married man. Sorry!
A married man with pluto at the same degree as tens of hundreds of millions of others born during 1951 - 1952 specifically
the married man in question also has Neptune almost at the same degree as you piercethvale

i.e.
within two degrees of all people born 1951 - 1952
and in the same sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Konrad, since this hospital record does not appear to have been rounded, I think it's pretty close.
This person definitely comes across to me as Sagittarius rising.
He got married in late September, 2007-- I think the 29th or 30th.
born 1951 - 1952 and so got married aged approximately 56
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Unread 02-02-2015, 11:07 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

I was just thinking that perhaps we have some newby readers that are interested in the hot topic, and throwing words like "alcocoden" at them would be confusing. A short explanation from our part was in order
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  #247  
Unread 02-02-2015, 11:50 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

I was just thinking that perhaps we have some newby readers that are interested in the hot topic,
and throwing words like "alcocoden" at them would be confusing.
A short explanation from our part was in order

Good thinking Dirius, and thank you for that ~ of course ours is an astrological learning forum
where we all learn by exchange of astrological opinion
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Unread 02-02-2015, 12:15 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

It seems we have a different definition of inner guidance.
It seems you have misunderstood my comments

i.e.
Inner guidance = guidance from within


Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

The way I use the term,
inner guidance means guidance coming from within
the way you use the term is the way the term is designed to be understood

we agree then that Inner guidance = guidance from within


Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

and not guiding what is within (which I guess is how you meant it).
Your guess is incorrect

as I stated
inner guidance simply means guidance from within


Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

In that sense, astrology is not guidance that is coming from within,
but it can be used as guidance for what is within.
obviously astrology is 'a form of guidance for what is within'

HOWEVER
keep in mind that 'inner guidance' in and of itself
is dependent on being reliable guidance
if it is to be constructive guidance as well

however
you seem to be claiming that 'inner guidance' is automatically reliable

and clearly this is patently not the case

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Sure, if a new model is introduced, it should deliver consistent results before we can adapt it.
'new models' require extensive proof
rather than not unquestioning acceptance by all and sundry
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

And the new model doesn't have to invalidate the old model necessarily.
since your comment states that the old model remains valid
then there's no need for a new model
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Unread 02-02-2015, 01:20 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Monk, I've never been much of a rock fan (after I outgrew the Jefferson Airplane, that is )
but after looking at Prince's chart & bio-sketch, it seems to me that Prince is known for (10th house) being a prolific writer and performer
(which would be true of many singer-songwriters,)
but also for a bad-boy image that pushes the boundaries of "acceptable" sexuality, dress, and gender mores.

So perhaps its the sexual provocation of Prince's music where we might expect to see a Plutonian influence.
Rock music has 'a bad-boy image' since its inception
for example
'The Warden threw a party in the County Jail'
tut tut, bad Warden


furthermore popular music thrives on sexual provocation in one form or another





Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

This doesn't deny Mars as the "guy" planet, or Venus as the attractant.
With Pluto, however, we'd expect to see more upheaval, and perhaps even a transpersonal kind of influence.


In fact, the sexual lyrics to some of Prince's songs led to the following, excerpted from Wikipedia:

"After Tipper Gore heard her 12-year-old daughter Karenna listening to Prince's song "Darling Nikki", she founded the Parents Music Resource Center.The center advocates the mandatory use of a warning label ("Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics") on the covers of records that have been judged to contain language or lyrical content unsuitable for minors. The recording industry later voluntarily complied with this request.[Of what is considered the Filthy Fifteen Prince's compositions appear no. 1 and no. 2, with the fourth position occupied by his protégée Vanity."
Parents protesting against sexuality in music is nothing new
and may be explained by the seven visible planets rather than blaming everything on pluto


When Elvis Presley performed on the Ed Sullivan Show 1956,
the cameras only showed him from the waist up because of the hip-shaking

In the mid 1960’s, parents were shocked by the mop-top haircuts..... how plutonian is a mop-top haircut?

'....More shocks were in store as groups like the Rolling Stones and the Animals
popularized a more coarse, gritty, and vulgar style of blues-influenced rock.
The psychedelic explosion brought new controversy to the world of rock.
Bands such as the Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead
openly lived a hippie lifestyle and freely admitted to the use of drugs like marijuana and LSD...'


This was a new source of alarm for parents as young people adopted hippie ways and the abuse of drugs became epidemic.
Rock ‘n’ rollers have continued to try to keep the shock waves coming with the violent aggressiveness of “heavy metal” rock,
the open rebellion of “punk” rock, and music advocating sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, drug abuse,
and finally, Satanism, the worship of the devil
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute...ock_n_roll.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Modernly, Pluto has a lot to do with sexuality,
because of its (shared) rulership of Scorpio.
so shared rulership of Scorpio is the sole reason for pluto conenction with sexuality then
And yet the explanation of why pluto is modernly associated with Scorpio
is simply as Paul_ commented

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post

Just as an historical interlude that some people may find interesting,
it's note worthy that modern rulerships were assigned not because of some arduous research and investigation
- as you often hear from many modern astrologers, but instead
by astrologers of the time, cogniscant of the tradition of rulership,
basically went ahead and followed Ptolemy's logic, by assigning the next planet out with the next sign out. So flowing from the Sun is the rulership scheme which normally reflects back to the Moon, but breaking this they just carried on projecting out from the sun. So the next out from the Sun is Mercury, then Venus, then Mars, then Jupiter and then Saturn, and then when Uranus was discovered we see astrologers explicitly invent the rulership to Aquarius because Aquarius is the next sign out after Capricorn, then when Neptune comes along it's assigned the next one out which is Pisces.

This is explicitly stated in the very earliest sources we have for modern rulership.

So the outer planetary rulerships came about by trying to stay true to the tradition at large, and absolutely not by channelling or study of numerous charts.

Then Pluto was discovered and by this stage in the history our understanding of astrology, already getting watered down by the time of Uranus' discovery, find itself in a time where astrology is no longer in the hands of the educated as it once was, but in the hands of the masses, during a time when it was already simplified and watered down and projected through a pseudo-religious lens of the Theosophical movement.

Pluto is discovered and the pattern continues.
It is assigned to Aries
and
there is a conference in Germany to discuss the matter more fully.
UNANIMOUS agreement dictates that Pluto rules Aries,
and the counter idea, that some were positing at the time, that it should rule Scorpio are squashed.


Until someone beats them to print, and writes up the attributions of Pluto and that it rules Scorpio.
The author beat them to print and published a successful book and the rest is history.
It stuck, and from that day forth Pluto magically started ruling Scorpio.


I point this out because in the context of rulership even the modern rulership scheme bows to the traditional logic as much as it can. It does not reinvent anything, instead it recognises the superiority of the traditional schema and tries to accommodate itself into it as much as it can.

The only exception is that the general lack of understanding of the broader tradition by the time of Pluto amongst the basic astrologer, thanks to a deliberate watering down of astrological technique coupled with the unlucky timing of Pluto coming out when the astrological world was still struggling to emerge from the mini-dark period it underwent meant that one of the outers went to another sign.
So the fact that pluto is 'modernly connected with Scorpio'
is because one author beat another author to the print

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

If we extend this a bit further, medical/anatomical astrology is one area where signs and houses do overlap.
When you see someone with Scorpio rising, Pluto conjunct the MC, and the sun in the 8th house,
I think it is fair enough to consider him to be an "8th chord" (8th key) type of person.
Scorpio and the 8th house rule the sexual organs
So for you the sexual connection of pluto is entirely dependent on pluto being co-ruler of Scorpio
and yet
pluto unanimously ruled Aries
until one author beat another to the print

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Pluto has a ruthless quality to it that I wouldn't get from Prince's Mars in Aries alone.
An Aries Mars is an aggressive, independent kind of guy,
but other factors in the chart might suggest some concern about the impact of his music on little kids.
Whereas a domineering Pluto is more, "I am going to be me regardless of what you think, or who gets damaged in the process."

We get some cross-currents, as well with Prince's late-degree MC and Pluto in Leo, ruled by an 8th house sun;
the sun's house ruled by a domiciled Mercury square Pluto; and Pluto aspecting a domiciled Venus (trine,) Mars (quincunx,) moon (opposition,) and Saturn (trine.) He's also got the generational Pluto-Neptune sextile. Pluto is a big focalizer in Prince's chart. Pluto/MC quintile sun confers a huge amount of ambition.

If we look at Mars as the traditional ruler of Scorpio (rising sign) we see it domiciled and as the tip of a yod, and also as aspecting multiple planets.

Certainly there's more in Prince's chart that relates to his life that I could discuss, but it does seem to me to be a good illustration of how Pluto functions.
The flaw in your argument is that Prince is only one of many popular 'rock stars'
and
even if some rock stars do have pluto in Leo with an Aries Mars
not all rock stars have Mars in Aries and Pluto in Leo

King of Rock and Roll Elvis Presley has pluto in Cancer
by the way King of Rock and Roll's Moon is Pisces
and
Mars is in Libra
the flaw of your argument is that it is far too generalised


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  #250  
Unread 02-02-2015, 01:42 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

So perhaps its the sexual provocation of Prince's music where we might expect to see a Plutonian influence.

In fact, the sexual lyrics to some of Prince's songs led to the following, excerpted from Wikipedia:

"After Tipper Gore heard her 12-year-old daughter Karenna listening to Prince's song "Darling Nikki", she founded the Parents Music Resource Center.The center advocates the mandatory use of a warning label ("Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics") on the covers of records that have been judged to contain language or lyrical content unsuitable for minors. The recording industry later voluntarily complied with this request.[Of what is considered the Filthy Fifteen Prince's compositions appear no. 1 and no. 2, with the fourth position occupied by his protégée Vanity."
Modernly, Pluto has a lot to do with sexuality, because of its (shared) rulership of Scorpio
.
by the way, there are 'bad girls' as well as 'bad boys'

In 2009 The Parents Television Council, a non-profit organisation with a mission
"to promote and restore responsibility to the entertainment industry"
said airing Britney Spears song 'IF YOU SEEK AMY 'between 6:00am and 10:00pm
"would violate the broadcast indecency law."
http://www.nme.com/news/britney-spears/42250

Britney Spears Pluto is in Venus-ruled Libra

The claim that pluto's sexual connection is due to co-rulership of Scorpio with Mars
is based on unconfirmed assertions that pluto co-rules Scorpio


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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-02-2015 at 01:56 PM. Reason: clarification
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