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  #201  
Unread 02-01-2015, 03:01 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Bickering? Turf war?
On the contrary this is a lively discussion thread on apparent 'confusion about pluto'
You know what I mean.

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  #202  
Unread 02-01-2015, 03:13 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

I don't like typical Pluto interpretations in modern astrology either.
the 'one-size-fits-all-schools' of generalised cookbook astrology
are indeed best avoided

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
That's why I was interested in a comparison between Pluto, Mars and Saturn
by both modernists and traditionalists to work out specific differences.
I'm going to create a separate thread on that later.
So, your input will be welcome.
by all means do the comparison if you are familiar with traditional delineation
Konrad earlier commented that
'The established planets are the seven visible ones
- it is one aspect of practice that both camps use

- if you want to add more bodies to the rulership system and in general practice
the onus of proof is actually on the person proposing the modification
...'


Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
A sheet of paper with a drawing on it is not what I'd call inner guidance, really.
Clearly, that 'drawing on that sheet of paper'
would require interpretation in order to discern the meaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

What I mean with inner guidance is intuition
Intuition is not dependent on a knowledge of modern astrology
or even of a knowledge of traditional astrology either
in order to find inner guidance

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

which is guidance right here right now, no tools required.
If 'no tools are required'
then the matter is beyond the province of both modern and traditional astrology
and seems better suited to the Spiritual Realm board of this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Yes, both camps use astrology for predictive purposes.
Certainly
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  #203  
Unread 02-01-2015, 03:15 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

You know what I mean.
Whether discussion is experienced as 'bickering' or not
appears to be a personal issue
dependent on mind-set/perspective
i.e.
even if discussion is lively, it is important to discuss
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  #204  
Unread 02-01-2015, 04:20 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
. . . Konrad posted an anonymised chart which was then re-calculated by a member using their own software and then posted on the forum with an inclusion of both the year and the date of birth of the third party. The year and the date of birth of the third party had previously been obscured and anonymised by Konrad.

The member was asked politely to alter the re-posted chart, but refused, the chart remained posted showing date and time of birth.

Eventually, moderator wilsontc acted and the offending chart has now been anonymised in accord with forum rules.
Here is a link to that chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=169 which is now named 'James Bond' and has neither date of birth nor time of birth
Get your facts straight before you continue to spread misinformation. There was no communication between the moderator and myself. I acted on my own. Seems you just can't miss an opportunity to cast someone in a bad light when you think you can get away with it. Quite the informed poster you are.

Attached are my natal chart and a list of aspects found in it. Please don't steal my identity, clean out my bank account, cause me sleepless nights, or harm me in any other meaningful way with the information provided and I promise not to do any of that to any of you.

2/3's of my natal aspects are less than 5°. 5 are less than 3°, 2 less than 2°, and 4 less than 1°.

The 17 aspects consist of

1 conjunction - 1 opposition
5 trines - 5 squares
2 sextiles - 3 inconjuncts

My hair is now grey/silver.

Bob
Attached Images
File Type: gif RN Birth.gif (16.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: png MYsmall.png (46.0 KB, 2 views)

Last edited by unique_astrology; 02-01-2015 at 04:32 PM.
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  #205  
Unread 02-01-2015, 06:21 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post

Get your facts straight before you continue to spread misinformation.
There was no communication between the moderator and myself.
I acted on my own.
Seems you just can't miss an opportunity to cast someone in a bad light when you think you can get away with it.
Quite the informed poster you are.

That's misinformation
- here's the complete quote of my actual post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


Hi Monk ~ on stings ~ 'Oh Death where is thy sting? Oh grave thy victory?'

Clearly you missed the multiple posts that have now been deleted from this thread by moderator wilsontc
- they were deleted around 01:00AM. When posts are deleted threads do appear 'sloppy' with little coherence.
But late last night/early hours trolls posted a number of lewd comments on this thread,
those posters have now been banned by wilsontc and their comments deleted from this thread.
There were several pages of dialogue between posters on the topic of forum rules
regarding protection of private information when third party charts are posted.
because Konrad posted an anonymised chart which was then re-calculated by a member using their own software
and then posted on the forum with an inclusion of both the year and the date of birth of the third party.
The year and the date of birth of the third party had previously been obscured and anonymised by Konrad.
The member was asked politely to alter the re-posted chart, but refused, the chart remained posted showing date and time of birth.
Eventually, moderator wilsontc acted and the offending chart has now been anonymised in accord with forum rules.
Here is a link to that chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=169
which is now named 'James Bond' and has neither date of birth nor time of birth
The words there was 'communication between the moderator and yourself' cannot be found anywhere
check it


the actual words posted were:


'The member was asked politely to alter the re-posted chart, but refused, the chart remained posted showing date and time of birth'

And you were asked politely by Konrad to anonymise the chart
but his request has been deleted by the Moderator
'because the poster has anonymized chart
'


Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Well yes, we agree on the influence of Saturn, but for different reasons.

[deleted comment since poster has anonymize chart - Moderator]

and so Konrads request to you to anonymize the chart has been deleted
because you did eventually anonymize the chart at 01:01AM
more than two hours after Konrad began dialogue with you on this thread specifically asking you to anonymize the chart
Those posts of that dialogue are now deleted by the Moderator
simply because you anonymized the chart
no doubt by complete co-incidence precisely at the time when a Moderator logged in
and began deleting trolling posts made on this thread by leviathan and tcwilson

Quote:
Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post
Attached are my natal chart and a list of aspects found in it. Please don't steal my identity, clean out my bank account, cause me sleepless nights, or harm me in any other meaningful way with the information provided and I promise not to do any of that to any of you.

2/3's of my natal aspects are less than 5°. 5 are less than 3°, 2 less than 2°, and 4 less than 1°.

The 17 aspects consist of

1 conjunction - 1 opposition
5 trines - 5 squares
2 sextiles - 3 inconjuncts

My hair is now grey/silver.
Bob
No one is interested in stealing your identity
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  #206  
Unread 02-01-2015, 06:29 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

Yes, but that is sort of part of the problem.

Personality is, while unique, a mixture of very common things every people can share. Everyone will be afraid of something, or have problems, and usually about similar stuff. At some point we all experience disatisfaction with our jobs, our relationships, our family, etc.

For example, I've never met someone that didn't blame his or her parents about something,
regardless of how insignificant the issue could be.

Thus I believe that, at some point, we could find an explanation to everything, regarding anything.
We could use only the asteroids such as chiron, and relate him in some way towards any type of doubts we could have.


What shows up in astrology, is the predictive power of it. Even using modern techniques, most of the information provided by outer planets when using predictions, is of little help.

I know for example, most people will atribute pluto transits to certain stuff,
but there is usually a much more reliable explanation to such things by traditional standards.

Exactly
pluto has nothing different to add to delineation using the seven visible planets
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  #207  
Unread 02-01-2015, 07:20 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Waybread, please reveal the info regarding the chart you posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Also, I've noticed that it's usually people who feel disempowered and not in charge of their lives that gravitate to predictive astrology. Which is logical. If people want to get back their power and back in charge of their lives, however, then I suggest to stay away from predictive astrology.
Useless comments without astrological discussion.
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Last edited by Dirius; 02-01-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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  #208  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:00 PM
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piercethevale piercethevale is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

MissScorpio.
Not everyone is affected by all the planets. most are affected from 3 to 5. Some more some less. A few by all, I am one of those few.

Yet!...and here's the rub. All angles to the Ascendant are of affect.
What that mean is all Astrological Parts {Arabic Parts, Trans-Saturnian Parts and Hermetic Lots} that utilize the Ascendant as the "Personal Point" have an effect upon you.
So, those "Trans-Saturnian Parts" are of profound influence. The Astrological Part derived from the formula Asc. + Mars - Pluto is in fact what can be identified as the "Part of War"... or Part of Volatile Anger" or some term that conveys the same concept.
Also, Pluto conjunct the Ascendant is of profound influence and bestows remarkable proclivities when conjunct within a half of a degree of orb or less, but does have influences within the allowable orb for all Planets. It also has quite an influence conj. the mid haven...same rule applies as to half degree conjunctions.

I met a women in 1999 that has Pluto conj. her Asc by less that a half degree of conjunction. She has "healing hands' and the ability to see energy.
I have Pluto conj. my M.C. by just under 3* 30', and that gives me an acute sense as to where and from which energy arises {I can only imagine what it would be as like if I had been born with Pluto within a half degree of orb conjunction...and I imagine it to be quite awesome} The woman I mention and I became lovers, we were to be wed at one time.
Early in the relationship, fully clothed, sitting on her living room sofa, we had a tantric experience... souls merged... quite the experience. I was able to nudge it that way as I have that sense of form where-in the energy arises.
I didn't tell her I was going to "try something" , I just did it to see what would happen. It happen alright...irrefutably, as she was quite startled..as I was a bit. I had never tried such a thing before or since. I just had a good idea that with such a person as her it could be done, knowing that Pluto is so strong in both our natal charts.

The discovery of this woman, her proclivities and just how profound the implications of Pluto conj. the Ascendant are led to my doing some historical research and application of what I learned... and subsequently a book.
I was interviewed on the radio, station KOA am, Denver, Colorado, on the Rick Barber radio program on Dec. 22nd, 2005 about this discovery. Radio station KOA can be picked up by most all the lower 48 States. The following year, at the first convention of the IAU to follow, Pluto was demoted in a most suspicious and deceptive manner....which I highly doubt was just mere coincidence.
Th book wasn't published until March of 2008. It is in need of some revision due to subsequent additional discoveries and a couple of errors not astrologically related on theological matters....otherwise it is of sound and useful information. I'm not trying to sell you a book, I give away all the information on the internet anyways...effectively nullifying my contract with my publisher whom then gets to keep all monies from sales...which he does.

I not doing this for money.

...and please note that the Sabian Symbols are quite genuine and of inestimable value when utilized with Astrology. Astrological Parts are "symbolically active".
For example: The Part derived from the formula Asc. + Venus - Pluto is an 'Astrological part' signifying "Self Sacrifice". The Sabian Symbol found for the degree of the Zodiac that your said Part can be found to be within, symbolizes that as to which you will, quite willingly, give your very life for...or as close as you might actually go so far as to give your own life for.

Those that deny the influences of the trans-Saturnian planets are either adherents and staunch supporter of pre 17th century astrological practices that have existed since the "Dark Ages", when knowledge in general for all of Mankind was at its' lowest point... or they are just simple fools....imho, of course.
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  #209  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:20 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Monk View Post
In Research, i will not debate, but Oddity mentioned tight on angles, and at the time i did give Prince as a tight Pluto M.C., no one seems to have connected?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Prince

He does sing songs about under age or taboo sex, perhaps Pluto traits?

I'm too polite to go there!
Monk, I've never been much of a rock fan (after I outgrew the Jefferson Airplane, that is ) but after looking at Prince's chart & bio-sketch, it seems to me that Prince is known for (10th house) being a prolific writer and performer (which would be true of many singer-songwriters,) but also for a bad-boy image that pushes the boundaries of "acceptable" sexuality, dress, and gender mores.

So perhaps its the sexual provocation of Prince's music where we might expect to see a Plutonian influence. This doesn't deny Mars as the "guy" planet, or Venus as the attractant. With Pluto, however, we'd expect to see more upheaval, and perhaps even a transpersonal kind of influence.

In fact, the sexual lyrics to some of Prince's songs led to the following, excerpted from Wikipedia:

"After Tipper Gore heard her 12-year-old daughter Karenna listening to Prince's song "Darling Nikki", she founded the Parents Music Resource Center.The center advocates the mandatory use of a warning label ("Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics") on the covers of records that have been judged to contain language or lyrical content unsuitable for minors. The recording industry later voluntarily complied with this request.[Of what is considered the Filthy Fifteen Prince's compositions appear no. 1 and no. 2, with the fourth position occupied by his protégée Vanity."

Modernly, Pluto has a lot to do with sexuality, because of its (shared) rulership of Scorpio. If we extend this a bit further, medical/anatomical astrology is one area where signs and houses do overlap. When you see someone with Scorpio rising, Pluto conjunct the MC, and the sun in the 8th house, I think it is fair enough to consider him to be an "8th chord" (8th key) type of person. Scorpio and the 8th house rule the sexual organs.

Pluto has a ruthless quality to it that I wouldn't get from Prince's Mars in Aries alone. An Aries Mars is an aggressive, independent kind of guy, but other factors in the chart might suggest some concern about the impact of his music on little kids. Whereas a domineering Pluto is more, "I am going to be me regardless of what you think, or who gets damaged in the process."

We get some cross-currents, as well with Prince's late-degree MC and Pluto in Leo, ruled by an 8th house sun; the sun's house ruled by a domiciled Mercury square Pluto; and Pluto aspecting a domiciled Venus (trine,) Mars (quincunx,) moon (opposition,) and Saturn (trine.) He's also got the generational Pluto-Neptune sextile. Pluto is a big focalizer in Prince's chart. Pluto/MC quintile sun confers a huge amount of ambition.

If we look at Mars as the traditional ruler of Scorpio (rising sign) we see it domiciled and as the tip of a yod, and also as aspecting multiple planets.

Certainly there's more in Prince's chart that relates to his life that I could discuss, but it does seem to me to be a good illustration of how Pluto functions.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-01-2015 at 09:25 PM.
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  #210  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:38 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Waybread,

if you're not going to post the chart details, can you post the chart in Lahiri with Porphyry houses? I will look when I get the opportunity.
Here it is, Konrad. While I trust your confidentiality absolutely, we learned from yesterday's little episode with "tcwilson" (aka leviathan) that there are trolls about; and identity theft is a huge problem internationally.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #211  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:49 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Waybread, please reveal the info regarding the chart you posted



Useless comments without astrological discussion.
Oh, I assuredly will, Dirius! As I noted in my thanks to you, though, I wanted to wait for a bit to see if there were any other takers. It looks like Konrad will have a look at it, so I'll wait till he's posted something.
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  #212  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:51 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Here it is, Konrad. While I trust your confidentiality absolutely, we learned from yesterday's little episode with "tcwilson" (aka leviathan) that there are trolls about; and identity theft is a huge problem internationally.
Can you PM me some life events since his ASC is so close to a sign boundary? I would need to rectify the chart before I use it.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered that I can't since I don't have the details. Leave it with me, I need to think about how I can do this.
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  #213  
Unread 02-02-2015, 12:18 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Here it is, Konrad. While I trust your confidentiality absolutely, we learned from yesterday's little episode with "tcwilson" (aka leviathan) that there are trolls about; and identity theft is a huge problem internationally.
I only posted in direct response to the querent's first post, thus I haven't followed any of the extraneous discussion that is occurring here, but if I may intrude just to say... ?

...That the chart you posted waybread is most interesting to me personally as I see a unique synastry beween it and my own natal chart.

...by the oddest of coincidences, the Sun is conj. my Pluto which was at 20* Leo 48' when I was born.
In addition, Mars conj. my Part of Play, Venus trine my Mars in the 5th deg. of Gemini, Uranus conj. my Part of Nobility & Honor, Chiron conj. my natal Venus, Jupiter conj. my vertex and the I.C. conj. my Part of Libido/Energy, have certainly piqued my interest... and I use the term "piqued" most conservatively.


If the chart native is a woman and single... introduce me... I promise to be on my best behavior, trust me.















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  #214  
Unread 02-02-2015, 01:54 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
the 'one-size-fits-all-schools' of generalised cookbook astrology
are indeed best avoided

by all means do the comparison if you are familiar with traditional delineation
Konrad earlier commented that
'The established planets are the seven visible ones
- it is one aspect of practice that both camps use

- if you want to add more bodies to the rulership system and in general practice
the onus of proof is actually on the person proposing the modification...'


Clearly, that 'drawing on that sheet of paper'
would require interpretation in order to discern the meaning

Intuition is not dependent on a knowledge of modern astrology
or even of a knowledge of traditional astrology either
in order to find inner guidance

If 'no tools are required'
then the matter is beyond the province of both modern and traditional astrology
and seems better suited to the Spiritual Realm board of this forum

Certainly
It seems we have a different definition of inner guidance. The way I use the term, inner guidance means guidance coming from within and not guiding what is within (which I guess is how you meant it). In that sense, astrology is not guidance that is coming from within, but it can be used as guidance for what is within.

Sure, if a new model is introduced, it should deliver consistent results before we can adapt it. And the new model doesn't have to invalidate the old model necessarily. So, relax.
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  #215  
Unread 02-02-2015, 02:07 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Useless comments without astrological discussion.
How so? It was about your model of astrology. You've made some bold statements which I find very questionable. So I commented accordingly.

I'd say before anyone can say anything definite about which celestial bodies should be used and which bodies shouldn't, we should actually know why astrology works. So, I'm curious, do you actually know why astrology works? If not, you're just speculating.

Also, does conscious thought play any role in your model? If not, you leave out an important part of reality.
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  #216  
Unread 02-02-2015, 02:20 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
How so? It was about your model of astrology. You've made some bold statements which I find very questionable. So I commented accordingly.

I'd say before anyone can say anything definite about which celestial bodies should be used and which bodies shouldn't, we should actually know why astrology works. So, I'm curious, do you actually know why astrology works? If not, you're just speculating.

Also, does conscious thought play any role in your model? If not, you leave out an important part of reality.
EDIT: going to edit the post a bit, because I don't want to sound offensive or provoke an argument.

I didn't say psichological astrology was useless, or untrue. I just said it was, at least to me, a bit redundant. Personality readings usually just tell you things you already know. Perhaps some people need help regarding this, but it is something that can be done so without even looking at someone's chart (ex: an aggresive person doesn't need to check his or her chart to know he is aggresive). Knowing that a certain personality flaw is caused by a bad planetary placement, doesn't really help much in my opinion.

If you consider predictive astrology to be for the "powerless", I applaud you, to me it is a better investment of ones time, and a much more usefull tool, that can help people in a much better way. Horary itself is amazing.

What I said wasn't a statement, rather an opinion regarding the chart reading in question.
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You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 02-02-2015 at 02:42 AM.
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  #217  
Unread 02-02-2015, 02:39 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
My bold statement regarding psichological astrology, was regarding its uses. I said it was redundant. It is.

Telling someone how his personality works, so he can make adjustments, can be done so with or without astrology. You can go to an actual therapist. Hell, you can actually stand in the mirror and reflect about the flaws in yourself without ever looking at your chart. Astrology doesn't really play a big part in anything, rather than at most a confirmation of what you may already know about yourself.

Predictive astrology takes a handle on things that are otherwise unknown. Horary for example, on missing items. Amazing how it works. A very usefull tool.

I never said psichological astrology is useless, or that it didn't work. I believe it is clearly something that can be extracted from a birth chart. I just said it is redundant, which means that its uses aren't that many, because at most it can tell you things you already know, or that people already know from you. To me it is not a practical use of a person's time or money.

I'm not trying to be hurtfull here. To give you an example, a VCR is still usefull, plays videos. Today it is redundant, because we don't really need VCR's anymore. Of course you can watch an old movie tape in it.

But that comment, rather than a statement, was a personal view, regarding the chart reading in question.


it seems to me that my comment bothered you, so you decided to say something similar regarding predictive astrology. To me its fine if you want to believe predictive astrology is for "powerless people", I really don't care about your opinion regarding it.

Thus my quote to your comment: Useless comment without astrological implication

Would be nice if an admin could strip both these 2 comments of mine, and yours, because they don't really add to the conversation.
Well, I take your reply as a "No, I don't really know why astrology works, I'm just speculating like everybody else here"... is that okay with you?
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Exactly
pluto has nothing different to add to delineation using the seven visible planets
Temporarily, maybe. I'd be careful with such absolute statements.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Well, I take your reply as a "No, I don't really know why astrology works, I'm just speculating like everybody else here"... is that okay with you?
You see your basicly trying to troll the post, haven't seen you make an actual comment on either theory or practice.

I wonder why.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You see your basicly trying to troll the post, haven't seen you make an actual comment on either theory or practice.
I actually did comment. I see the influence of Pluto but I disagree with a lot of what the modern interpretations say about what that influence actually is. That's why I said the notion to see Pluto as just a mixture of Mars and Saturn is interesting but not actually valid. I can see, however, how folks can come to that conclusion after reading the usual modern cook books. So in that sense, I can understand the traditionalists and appreciate your (plural 'you') comments. Current definitions of Pluto in astrology are not very satisfying. Point taken. To then say that Pluto is irrelevant and doesn't have anything to add because it doesn't fit into the tried and tested models is a rather bold statement, especially since no one here knows with absolute certainty why astrology actually works (myself included), we all just know how it works, and Pluto (and the other outer planets) force us to rethink our model and approach. With the emergence of the electric universe model, the old cosmological models seem to be outdated now, and with it the old astrological models. So, there's a lot of research and development to do.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I actually did comment. I see the influence of Pluto but I disagree with a lot of what the modern interpretations say about what that influence actually is. That's why I said the notion to see Pluto as just a mixture of Mars and Saturn is interesting but not actually valid. I can see, however, how folks can come to that conclusion after reading the usual modern cook books. So in that sense, I can understand the traditionalists and appreciate your (plural 'you') comments. Current definitions of Pluto in astrology are not very satisfying. Point taken. To then say that Pluto is irrelevant and doesn't have anything to add because it doesn't fit into the tried and tested models is a rather bold statement, especially since no one here knows with absolute certainty why astrology actually works (myself included), we all just know how it works, and Pluto (and the other outer planets) force us to rethink our model and approach. With the emergence of the electric universe model, the old cosmological models seem to be outdated now, and with it the old astrological models. So, there's a lot of research and development to do.
But the assertion that you are making is that we at least know how it works. And that working knowledge comes from the old classical teachings we traditionalists are defending. Granted you are not defending pluto, rather stating that it could "perhaps" mean something, and we shouldn't disregard it just because we have no evidence of what it might be doing.

But if we accept that what we are doing within the traditional framework is indeed something that works in the practical sense, adding pluto or any outer wouldn't really give us much more new information that we couldn't actually get from the planets we are already employing.

Thus, my statement: pluto has no relevance. Perhaps it might carry some particular significance for some specific issue, so far this is unkown (because I agree with you that modern definitions are indeed biased), but at least for the time in which life on earth continues the way it does, whatever significance pluto could have is still irrelevant.

Astrology within the traditional sense can already pretty much predict/describe anything, given that astrology is in essence, a symbolic practice.

I think it was me who described the modern attributes of pluto as Mars/Saturn mix. But I wasn't saying those are attributes pluto has. I was just saying that, a lot of the modern attributes given to pluto, are combinations of mars/saturn, stolen from other planets in an attempt to make pluto relevant.
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Last edited by Dirius; 02-02-2015 at 03:22 AM.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
EDIT: going to edit the post a bit, because I don't want to sound offensive or provoke an argument.

I didn't say psichological astrology was useless, or untrue. I just said it was, at least to me, a bit redundant. Personality readings usually just tell you things you already know. Perhaps some people need help regarding this, but it is something that can be done so without even looking at someone's chart (ex: an aggresive person doesn't need to check his or her chart to know he is aggresive). Knowing that a certain personality flaw is caused by a bad planetary placement, doesn't really help much in my opinion.

If you consider predictive astrology to be for the "powerless", I applaud you, to me it is a better investment of ones time, and a much more usefull tool, that can help people in a much better way. Horary itself is amazing.

What I said wasn't a statement, rather an opinion regarding the chart reading in question.
Okay, just saw your edit.

I don't feel attacked, you are always welcome to hit my models and concepts as hard as you can as long as you have an actual point. My approach is rather unorthodox anyway.

Yes, horary is amazing, astrology in general is. And I can see how predictive astrology can help calm folks down. So, as a temporary fix, to get back into balance, any tool anyone believes in should be welcome. As a way of life, however, I say it's fostering disempowerment and in the long run not doing any good in terms of peace of mind.

Re: psychological astrology, I agree, you don't need astrology to tell you who you are. Ideally, the question "Who am I?" shouldn't even arise. That's the ideal state of being perfectly in alignment with oneself. Unfortunately, people slowly but surely spend more time out of alignment than in alignment over time as they grow up and move through time. They usually don't even know anymore what is inner guidance and what is just conditioning. And that's where I see astrology can help, it can point back to one's core personality minus the conditioning. It should be clear, however, that astrology, like any other outside guidance or tool, is just the finger that is pointing to the moon and not the moon itself. IMO, there's a tendency to take astrology more serious than one actually should and ask it to deliver answers to question that it actually can't. That's why I am always pointing at the power of conscious thought which I see modern astrology doing as well, and traditional astrology not at all.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Can you PM me some life events since his ASC is so close to a sign boundary? I would need to rectify the chart before I use it.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered that I can't since I don't have the details. Leave it with me, I need to think about how I can do this.

Konrad, since this hospital record does not appear to have been rounded, I think it's pretty close. This person definitely comes across to me as Sagittarius rising. He got married in late September, 2007-- I think the 29th or 30th.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
I only posted in direct response to the querent's first post, thus I haven't followed any of the extraneous discussion that is occurring here, but if I may intrude just to say... ?

...That the chart you posted waybread is most interesting to me personally as I see a unique synastry beween it and my own natal chart.

...by the oddest of coincidences, the Sun is conj. my Pluto which was at 20* Leo 48' when I was born.
In addition, Mars conj. my Part of Play, Venus trine my Mars in the 5th deg. of Gemini, Uranus conj. my Part of Nobility & Honor, Chiron conj. my natal Venus, Jupiter conj. my vertex and the I.C. conj. my Part of Libido/Energy, have certainly piqued my interest... and I use the term "piqued" most conservatively.

No, it's a married man! But I hope you will interact with the chart based on your life experiences.

If the chart native is a woman and single... introduce me... I promise to be on my best behavior, trust me.
No, it's a married man. Sorry!
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
But the assertion that you are making is that we at least know how it works. And that working knowledge comes from the old classical teachings we traditionalists are defending. Granted you are not defending pluto, rather stating that it could "perhaps" mean something, and we shouldn't disregard it just because we have no evidence of what it might be doing.

But if we accept that what we are doing within the traditional framework is indeed something that works in the practical sense, adding pluto or any outer wouldn't really give us much more new information that we couldn't actually get from the planets we are already employing.

Thus, my statement: pluto has no relevance. Perhaps it might carry some particular significance for some specific issue, so far this is unkown (because I agree with you that modern definitions are indeed biased), but at least for the time in which life on earth continues the way it does, whatever significance pluto could have is still irrelevant.

Astrology within the traditional sense can already pretty much predict/describe anything, given that astrology is in essence, a symbolic practice.

I think it was me who described the modern attributes of pluto as Mars/Saturn mix. But I wasn't saying those are attributes pluto has. I was just saying that, a lot of the modern attributes given to pluto, are combinations of mars/saturn, stolen from other planets in an attempt to make pluto relevant.
Sure, no need to toss out the traditional model. So far it's the only one that seems to really work and it's somehow 'complete'. But fact is also that we have evolved and discovered a bunch of new planets and so the question arises, "What to do with it?" And we can only really answer that question if we know not only the how's of astrology, but also the why's.

And as long as we don't understand the why's, we can't really say anything with absolute certainty and only speculate. To ignore the new discoveries is one way of dealing with it and fine with me. But I'm wired differently, I try to get to the bottom of things, so there we go.

Yeah, I think it was you who introduced the Pluto = Mars + Saturn equation, which I think is absolutely valid given the current cookbook interpretations of Pluto. I usually thought that modern astrologers would just look at Scorpio and construct themselves a planet from the material they've found there, but as you've pointed out, they didn't really do that, haha.
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