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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #176  
Unread 02-01-2015, 05:35 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

I hope Waybread, that there is no confusion in myself attacking you, although we may agree to disagree on some subjects.

I'm not at ease on this thread, so will not be posting anymore!

Calm down Waybread, this thread doesn't help blood pressure ha ha!

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  #177  
Unread 02-01-2015, 05:36 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Yes, but that is sort of part of the problem.

Personality is, while unique, a mixture of very common things every people can share. Everyone will be afraid of something, or have problems, and usually about similar stuff. At some point we all experience disatisfaction with our jobs, our relationships, our family, etc.

For example, I've never met someone that didn't blame his or her parents about something, regardless of how insignificant the issue could be.

Thus I believe that, at some point, we could find an explanation to everything, regarding anything. We could use only the asteroids such as chiron, and relate him in some way towards any type of doubts we could have.

What shows up in astrology, is the predictive power of it. Even using modern techniques, most of the information provided by outer planets when using predictions, is of little help.

I know for example, most people will atribute pluto transits to certain stuff, but there is usually a much more reliable explanation to such things by traditional standards.
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  #178  
Unread 02-01-2015, 06:16 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

We shall see, Dirius!

I think the main value of modern astrology is in using it as a tool for self-awareness. It's OK if our maturing selves aren't as predictable as an engineer might like!

I don't think a nativity will show whether a person blames her parents for some small issue, but it should show if there were a persistent dysfunctional relationship. Transits can explain a lot of this-and-that about people's lives, but the natal chart should indicate persistent life themes.

Incidentally I was compiling a list, with links, to charts at the Astro-DataBank at www.astro.com that I thought were notably Plutonian, with Rodden AA or A ratings. There were a lot more that I thought were Plutonian, but with lower time ratings. I accidentally deleted my post-in-progress (a problem when I keep too many windows open at once,) but I recall the following, for anyone who would like to follow up on them:

Benito Mussolini, Hans Bethe, Billie Holiday, Elizabeth Smart, Jim Jones, Hiroshima first atomic bomb, Chernobyl accident.

The people were Plutonian in different ways-- the brief bio-sketches accompanying the charts should explain why.

"Birth charts" for mundane events are tricky, because something like a civil disaster could strike one place, yet leave a neighbouring place untouched. However, the two nuclear events selected had greater global impacts, having to do with nuclear war and concerns the safety of nuclear power plants.

As a modern astrologer I would use both Mars and Pluto as rulers of Scorpio. I would look at major chart patterns (such as buckets and funnels,) and be less concerned about angularity.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-01-2015 at 06:22 AM.
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  #179  
Unread 02-01-2015, 06:22 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

In terms of personality, angularity isn't actually that important.

Traditional astrology pretty much uses the same rules that modern astrology when analyzing personality. This is because personality is given by sign placement, aspect, and the planet themselves.

The concept of an angular house relates more to the ability of a planet to succesfully accomplish a birth chart "promise". For example a ruler of 10th house in an angular or favourable house, would help, or increase the chances of someone actually achieving that succes.

Personality is more of a given. If someone is short tempered....he is short tempered.

Things surrounding life are not, if someone is ment to be succesful or not, its a hard road, even if you have a lot of potential or a priviliged background.
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  #180  
Unread 02-01-2015, 08:23 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

In Research, i will not debate, but Oddity mentioned tight on angles, and at the time i did give Prince as a tight Pluto M.C., no one seems to have connected?

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Prince

He does sing songs about under age or taboo sex, perhaps Pluto traits?

I'm too polite to go there!
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  #181  
Unread 02-01-2015, 08:37 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Monk, Prince's Oikodespotes is Venus in Aries in the 7th sign, deviant sexuality is a given.
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  #182  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:03 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Then be sure to show that in any more tight angle Pluto observations, i hate using my stinger but it is waiting!

Most people value tight asc or mc values, it connects to location, like nothing else!
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  #183  
Unread 02-01-2015, 09:47 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Waybread,

if you're not going to post the chart details, can you post the chart in Lahiri with Porphyry houses? I will look when I get the opportunity.
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  #184  
Unread 02-01-2015, 10:44 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Hi everyone, with Wilson TC watching, i'm at least polite on threads, obviously i have never had warnings or posts cut, in my stay at community astrology forum.

Konrad Wrote" There really is nothing to discuss about it, at least not in this thread anyway, Monk and i look at charts differently, thats all.

I agree that nothing is brutal, i've been called worse than a Sloppy Thinker", but i wouldn't expect a LIBRA Rising capable of being offensive anyway"!!!!

Both JupiterAsc and TC Wilson thanked Konrad for this useful post!

OBVIOUSLY I'M SCORPIO RISING, so am now finding this thread sloppy in extreme, and have no wish to continue!

Hopefully JupiterAsc, you will in future as a buddy, check information before you thank posters!

In a polite way i hope this is brutal enough, a sting can be polite!
Hi Monk ~ on stings ~ 'Oh Death where is thy sting? Oh grave thy victory?'
Clearly you missed the multiple posts that have now been deleted from this thread by moderator wilsontc
- they were deleted around 01:00AM. When posts are deleted threads do appear 'sloppy' with little coherence.
But late last night/early hours trolls posted a number of lewd comments on this thread,
those posters have now been banned by wilsontc and their comments deleted from this thread.
There were several pages of dialogue between posters on the topic of forum rules
regarding protection of private information when third party charts are posted.
because Konrad posted an anonymised chart which was then re-calculated by a member using their own software
and then posted on the forum with an inclusion of both the year and the date of birth of the third party.
The year and the date of birth of the third party had previously been obscured and anonymised by Konrad.
The member was asked politely to alter the re-posted chart, but refused, the chart remained posted showing date and time of birth.
Eventually, moderator wilsontc acted and the offending chart has now been anonymised in accord with forum rules.
Here is a link to that chart
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=169
which is now named 'James Bond' and has neither date of birth nor time of birth
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  #185  
Unread 02-01-2015, 10:58 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Then be sure to show that in any more tight angle Pluto observations,
i hate using my stinger but it is waiting!

Most people value tight asc or mc values,
it connects to location, like nothing else!
Monk at your request, a chart with dward planet pluto on ascendant is posted earlier on this thread
and as I just explained
due to issues that required a moderator to step in, you may have missed it,
so I'm reposting the link for you so you can find it easily
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=169

meanwhile sting humor currently seems apposite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op2U-qGUDkg
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  #186  
Unread 02-01-2015, 11:33 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Dirius, thank you so much for responding! I'll wait to reveal more about the person behind my "mystery chart"
until I see whether or not anyone else (like Konrad) will try to read it.

My questions may sound a bit odd,
but they relate to where I think Pluto does show up in this person's life.


I've got posts on pp. 3 and 4 where I try to explain how I think Pluto operates in a horoscope--
which give away massive tips on this chart-- and then there is a lot of material on the Internet, as well.

In terms of sports or movies
-- we kind of have to deconstruct what it is about a particular sport or genre
that would likely appeal to someone with a particular placement.

To give a facile zodiac-sign example, we might imagine a Mars in Aries liking heavy metal music,
or a Capricorn Venus preferring the old classics.

But I think you hit a rather hidden nail on the head. Modern astrology (and it is not all "modern psychological astrology", by any means,)
deals more with the person's character or personality-- or even life-purpose. Many modern astrologers do focus on predictive or horary work,
but so often, people want to understand themselves better. They want to know if they can become something more in this life.
These questions of personal self-awareness are what modern astrology developed to address.

Any more takers? Konrad?
Your questions are not 'odd' but rather remarkably focused on generalised factors
as you yourself have admitted

i.e.
you comment that to imagine that all Mars in Aries like heavy metal music
or
all Venus in Capricorns prefer the old classic movie genre
is
in your own words
'a facile zodiac-sign example'


clearly, Mars in Aries may be located in any one of twelve houses of a natal chart
and
may be differently aspected by natal planets,
dependent on the individual natal chart

Venus in Capricorn is delineated according to the sign placement of ruler Saturn
as well as the house placement of ruler Saturn
not to mention aspects to natal Saturn from other natal planets
and that's just skimming the surface

so

to then imply that dwarf planet pluto
is a somehow 'stand-alone' universal explanation for preferences in sport or films
is clearly not in line with tried and tested astrological practice

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  #187  
Unread 02-01-2015, 12:15 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Gosh, Oddity-- I can't think of what I've said that could be construed as an attacking post,
nor do I find 90% of Konrad's posts in general to be attacking.
However, I might construe your latest to me as an attacking post, and have reported it as such.
If the mods agree, we'll see a bunch of this material disappear.
Konrads posts are reasonable, matter-of-fact and informative
and
Oddity was merely drawing attention to the fact
that it was Monk who requested charts with dwarf planet pluto angular

which was certainly not an attack of any kind on anyone

Multiple threads were deleted during the early hours of this morning
for two reasons
1. trolls posting lewd comments
2. a lengthy dialogue concerning the protection of third party charts
vis a vis forum rules stating that these require anonymisation
unless the owner has said they are happy to have their natal chart details publicised on an online forum
therefore
much material has already 'disappeared'

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

To the real Tim Wilson, if you are reading this
-- I blocked personal messages from tcwilson until the troll issue was resolved.
Once I am aware that the troll (leviathan?) has been countered, you'll be back in my PMs whenever or if you care to send me any
.
early this morning leviathan was banned by wilsontc http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=81789

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

To Konrad-- I am not being disrespectful when I say I do not recall some of your posts
or cannot be expected to go back and look for them.
At this stage in my life, I believe that I am dealing with a cognitive impairment.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20026392
If it gets worse, I will seek medical treatment for it.
But please do not become annoyed if I lack perfect recall of your recent, let alone all of, your posts.
I sincerely wish that my memory were better than it is.
Cognitive impairment is for some an almost inevitable experiences of aging
however no one is expecting anyone to 'have perfect recall of all posts'
hence it is useful to occasionally scroll back and re-read earlier comments
unless you are unable to do so.
However, one does 'scroll back and refresh' in order to verify
and confirm the gist
mainly simply because many members are generally posting on any thread
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-01-2015 at 12:18 PM. Reason: clarification
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  #188  
Unread 02-01-2015, 12:37 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Muchacho, I've previously discussed Pluto in a way that distinguishes it from Mars and Saturn, particularly with my post of 1/27 on page 3, and of 1/29 on p. 4.

I think it's incumbent upon the doubters to show how Mars and Saturn precisely replicate Pluto.
Okay, thanks. Maybe I should start a separate thread about this later.
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  #189  
Unread 02-01-2015, 01:12 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Muchacho, I've previously discussed Pluto in a way that distinguishes it from Mars and Saturn, particularly with my post of 1/27 on page 3, and of 1/29 on p. 4.

I think it's incumbent upon the doubters to show how Mars and Saturn precisely replicate Pluto.
as Konrad has quite correctly stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post

Not really. The established planets are the seven visible ones
- it is one aspect of practice that both camps use

- if you want to add more bodies to the rulership system and in general practice
the onus of proof is actually on the person proposing the modification
.

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  #190  
Unread 02-01-2015, 01:47 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
We shall see, Dirius!

I think the main value of modern astrology is in using it as a tool for self-awareness. It's OK if our maturing selves aren't as predictable as an engineer might like!

I don't think a nativity will show whether a person blames her parents for some small issue, but it should show if there were a persistent dysfunctional relationship. Transits can explain a lot of this-and-that about people's lives, but the natal chart should indicate persistent life themes.

Incidentally I was compiling a list, with links, to charts at the Astro-DataBank at www.astro.com that I thought were notably Plutonian, with Rodden AA or A ratings. There were a lot more that I thought were Plutonian, but with lower time ratings. I accidentally deleted my post-in-progress (a problem when I keep too many windows open at once,) but I recall the following, for anyone who would like to follow up on them:

Benito Mussolini, Hans Bethe, Billie Holiday, Elizabeth Smart, Jim Jones, Hiroshima first atomic bomb, Chernobyl accident.

The people were Plutonian in different ways-- the brief bio-sketches accompanying the charts should explain why.

"Birth charts" for mundane events are tricky, because something like a civil disaster could strike one place, yet leave a neighbouring place untouched. However, the two nuclear events selected had greater global impacts, having to do with nuclear war and concerns the safety of nuclear power plants.

As a modern astrologer I would use both Mars and Pluto as rulers of Scorpio.

I would look at major chart patterns (such as buckets and funnels,)
and be less concerned about angularity.
For thousands of years of astrological practice
angularity is a proven important consideration

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

For me (as a working hypothesis only),
the most I can do is assign an affinitive relationship of the outer planets to signs based upon elemental resonance:
Uranus, air, so affinitive to the air signs; Neptune, water, and so affinitive to water signs;
Pluto, fire, and so affinitive to the fire signs (here I differ even from the greats like Charles Carter, and do not assign co-affinity of Pluto to Scorpio: but realize that all Modernists do assign Pluto to Scorpio)

However, this entire subject (affinities/rulerships of the outers) is very speculative and highly theoretical,

and so

is a rather nebulous area open to many varied opinions.
the speculative and hightly theoretical nature of affinities/rulerships of the outers
is the reason for being 'confused about pluto'
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  #191  
Unread 02-01-2015, 01:53 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I must say though, that "personality/psichological" astrology to me is redundant, since I focus more on predictive techniques, which I find is the real use of astrology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
What shows up in astrology, is the predictive power of it. Even using modern techniques, most of the information provided by outer planets when using predictions, is of little help.
Astrology is just a tool for the mind. There's nothing wrong with predictive astrology. It's just that if you use astrology only for predictions, you'll just use a fraction of it's actual potential and are likely underestimating or even totally unaware of the power of conscious thought in people's lives.

Also, I've noticed that it's usually people who feel disempowered and not in charge of their lives that gravitate to predictive astrology. Which is logical. If people want to get back their power and back in charge of their lives, however, then I suggest to stay away from predictive astrology.
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  #192  
Unread 02-01-2015, 02:03 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I think the main value of modern astrology is in using it as a tool for self-awareness.
Precisely.
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  #193  
Unread 02-01-2015, 02:04 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Astrology is just a tool for the mind.
There are a myriad 'tools for the mind'
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

There's nothing wrong with predictive astrology.
It's just that if you use astrology only for predictions, you'll just use a fraction of it's actual potential
and are likely underestimating or even totally unaware of the power of conscious thought in people's lives.

Also, I've noticed that it's usually people who feel disempowered
and not in charge of their lives that gravitate to predictive astrology. Which is logical.
If people want to get back their power and back in charge of their lives, however,
then I suggest to stay away from predictive astrology.

And yet when advising 'disempowered people how to be in charge of their lives'
obviously one is predicting that if these disempowered people
take the advice of modern psychological astrologers
then the prediction is that they shall then 'be in charge of their lives'
either way prediction is involved
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  #194  
Unread 02-01-2015, 02:10 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
to then imply that dwarf planet pluto
is a somehow 'stand-alone' universal explanation for preferences in sport or films
is clearly not in line with tried and tested astrological practice
I don't see the implication.
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  #195  
Unread 02-01-2015, 02:17 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

I don't see the implication.
you did not quote the entire comment

i.e.

to imagine that all Mars in Aries like heavy metal music
or
all Venus in Capricorns prefer the old classic movie genre
is
'a facile zodiac-sign example'


clearly, Mars in Aries may be located in any one of twelve houses of a natal chart
and
may be differently aspected by natal planets,
dependent on the individual natal chart

Venus in Capricorn is delineated according to the sign placement of ruler Saturn
as well as the house placement of ruler Saturn
not to mention aspects to natal Saturn from other natal planets
and that's just skimming the surface

THAT'S WHY

to then imply that dwarf planet pluto
is a somehow 'stand-alone' universal explanation for preferences in sport or films
is clearly not in line with tried and tested astrological practice
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  #196  
Unread 02-01-2015, 02:19 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
There are a myriad 'tools for the mind'

And yet when advising 'disempowered people how to be in charge of their lives'
obviously one is predicting that if these disempowered people
take the advice of modern psychological astrologers
then the prediction is that they shall then 'be in charge of their lives'
either way prediction is involved
Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

What I'm saying is that astrology, as any other tool, is outside guidance which is no match to our inner guidance. Some folks here seem to think it's the other way around.
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Unread 02-01-2015, 02:29 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

What I'm saying is that astrology, as any other tool, is outside guidance which is no match to our inner guidance.
Some folks here seem to think it's the other way around.
Some folks seem to think that inner guidance is the sole province of pluto and modern astrology
whereas clearly
ancient and traditional astrology also provides inner guidance

furthermore
some modern astrologers use modern astrology for predictive purposes
and
traditional astrologers definitely use astrology for predictive purposes
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Unread 02-01-2015, 02:35 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
you did not quote the entire comment

i.e.
to imagine that all Mars in Aries like heavy metal music
or
all Venus in Capricorns prefer the old classic movie genre
is
'a facile zodiac-sign example'

clearly, Mars in Aries may be located in any one of twelve houses of a natal chart
and
may be differently aspected by natal planets,
dependent on the individual natal chart

Venus in Capricorn is delineated according to the sign placement of ruler Saturn
as well as the house placement of ruler Saturn
not to mention aspects to natal Saturn from other natal planets
and that's just skimming the surface

THAT'S WHY

to then imply that dwarf planet pluto
is a somehow 'stand-alone' universal explanation for preferences in sport or films
is clearly not in line with tried and tested astrological practice
Well, whatever. I'm not here for the bickering. I'm here to test and refine my own concepts and models and I've already learned a great deal from all you guys, be it traditionalists or modernists. I also realize that there's a turf war going on here.
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Unread 02-01-2015, 02:40 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Well, whatever. I'm not here for the bickering.
I'm here to test and refine my own concepts and models and I've already learned a great deal from all you guys, be it traditionalists or modernists.
I also realize that there's a turf war going on here.
Bickering? Turf war?
On the contrary this is a lively discussion thread on apparent 'confusion about pluto'
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Unread 02-01-2015, 02:59 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Some folks seem to think that inner guidance is the sole province of pluto and modern astrology
whereas clearly
ancient and traditional astrology also provides inner guidance

furthermore
some modern astrologers use modern astrology for predictive purposes
and
traditional astrologers definitely use astrology for predictive purposes
I don't like typical Pluto interpretations in modern astrology either. That's why I was interested in a comparison between Pluto, Mars and Saturn by both modernists and traditionalists to work out specific differences. I'm going to create a separate thread on that later. So, your input will be welcome.

A sheet of paper with a drawing on it is not what I'd call inner guidance, really. What I mean with inner guidance is intuition which is guidance right here right now, no tools required.

Yes, both camps use astrology for predictive purposes.
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