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  #126  
Unread 01-29-2015, 10:45 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Since this is a thread about (cough, ahem) Pluto, I wanted to share some information from astrology texts that I find most meaningful. I don't claim allegiance to either "psychological" or esoteric astrology. My views tend towards the pragmatic, with a commitment to choice-centered astrology vs. fatalism.

The trads here can decide if some other planet covers Pluto's beat.

In a natal chart reading:

"breaking down the reality structure of ordinary consciousness....radical transformation of consciousness and being....archetype of death and resurrection..... Pluto is hard to handle if one is bound up in the universe of Saturn [structures]....Pluto operates with extreme power, being a force beyond the ego.... Pluto can symbolize a complete breakdown of ordinary reality."

Pluto is often associated with underworld figures, organized crime, terrorism, nuclear war, the would-be magus, and power-hungry people who are willing to break the law to keep or expand their power. (Hand gives the example of Richard Nixon.) The commonality is a break-down of our ordinary taken-for-granted structures and rules. Pluto, according to Hand, is associated with metaphorical death: something might be "dead" or "dying" in your life but its purpose is to make way for new understandings.

Robert Hand, Horoscope Symbols, p. 79-83.
[Yes, he's moved into traditional astrology, but a published book stands or falls on its own merits.]

----------------------

"Function: The realization of one's destiny. The recognition of the absurdity of all narrow pursuits. The development of the capacity to discern truth.
"Dysfunction: Megalomania, ...violence,...dogmatism,...dictatorial behaviour, hunger for power, ...end-justifies-the-means thinking."
"To face Pluto is to face the ultimate futility of life." "...lives given transpersonal meaning..."
Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky, 134-137.

Forrest subsequently talks about all of the terrible things that happen in individual and collective lives, which are often categorized as evil. Where Pluto falls in the horoscope is where we must confront these difficult realities.

Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto, p. 5.
-----------------------------------
Fairfield describes Pluto as "the transformer." She stresses its old-into-new qualities, but uses words like "chaos," "destruction," and "purging" to describe its un-gentle methods of operation. When people "own" their Pluto, they know they have considerable power, but try to use it wisely. With a dysfunctional Pluto, someone can be power-hungry and abusive towards others.

Gail Fairfield, Choice Centered Astrology, pp. 226-230.

--------------------------
Of course, there's a lot more on Pluto, in print and on-line. The main source I'm not crazy about is Jeff Green's books on Pluto (which he seems to have channeled,) so I won't go there.

I would add to the above that strongly Plutonian people (except Konrad's example, apparently!) tend to demand being the powerful one in interpersonal relationships. Power becomes a zero-sum game, in which A's expansion of power is necessarily B's loss of power.

Pluto, if conjunct or afflicting the moon, often deals with shame, taboos, and skeletons in the family closet. Saturn traditionally rules shame, but the traditional world was far more public and shame often accompanied a loss of standing and public reputation. Pluto, like its kin Scorpio, wants to do its work secretly. Pluto deals with obsessions that people fear to admit publically.

Pluto by transit, asks us to kill off whatever is metaphorically dead or dying in our lives. We can do this deliberately and consciously, or else we can cling to the familiar and watch our structures crumble, anyway. The purpose is so that something new and more supportive for us can take place.

Anyway, there's much more that could be discussed, but that's a start.

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  #127  
Unread 01-29-2015, 11:19 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Thanks for the feedback, Konrad, but I feel like we're "the blind leading the blind" in a blind reading! You can't comment on this man's inner state, yet that is what modern astrology was designed to do best.
Yes, it is an issue, to be sure. Looking at your later post than the one I am replying to, you ask if the Traditional astrologers could assign another planet to act for what Pluto is said to. I don't speak for anyone but myself here, but I would question whether or not a lot of this consciousness transformation and such like is happening in the first place. How do we even set such a thing conceptually to even begin to talk of it never mind describe it to another on the basis of an astrology chart? The other things like crime are traditionally associated with the malefics and Mercury, particularly Mars and Mercury together.

Quote:
I won't try to back-pedal on mistakes, but I will say that your comments and mine on some points are not necessarily contradictory. Someone can be married to the same woman for 40 years, for example, because he's either found someone who is compatible or perhaps they share views about traditional marriage. This doesn't mean he feels comfortable in the presence of "liberated women" inclined to challenge his traditional way of thinking (Mercury sextile Saturn.)
Right, but I should clarify he is happily married, they are not together "for the kids" or anything like that. If by traditional, you mean the old "woman in the kitchen, man at work" paradigm, no he doesn't view himself or women that way. While not liberal, he does not express gender specific roles at all. Remember, with all female siblings, he is used to being around women constantly.


Quote:
It appears that I totally mistook the first house meaning, yet we also have Leo rising and a first house sun, so even if we blot out Pluto, how would you see these features correlating with a retiring personality? In traditional astrology, Mercury is angular and has a lot of essential dignity, although combust.
If you're asking me, I would look at the lord of the Hyleg, the Sun, which is actually the Sun (I use the Sidereal zodiac). In Hellenistic astrology, this planet is the oikodespotes or Lord of the Nativity and it was seen to describe the life of the native. Added to this, the Sun is also ASC lord so doubly important. I have mentioned this planet before in posts both here and on my blog, and also that Valens had an issue with Petosiris' view that this planet was the only one we should pay attention to for the whole life. Without putting words in Petosiris' mouth, I would suggest that if this planet is not doing so well then the whole chart is dragged down by it despite other significations. On my blog, I looked at Amy Winehouse's chart and her oikodespotes was Venus. In Cancer and conjoined Mars in fall, she had a short, troubled life despite her material success and fame. That said, this native's chart ruler is the Sun who is besieged by the malefics, separating from Mars and appplying to the out of sect Saturn and in kollesis with both (that being the 3 degree aspect spoken of by Porphyry). Furthermore, Saturn is in the Sun's fall, and this is a not a good state of affairs. I believe Sahl describes it as interacting wth one's enemy or one in the place of one's enemy. That Saturn is rejoicing in a masculine sign, in the same hemisphere as the Sun and exalted is the only thing that stopped the life from being very, very trying. To answer a later question, yes the native has many regrets, and most are due to his inability to assert himself and take a risk. The fact that the lord of Spirit is averse to Spirit doesn't help in that regard either.


Quote:
I should mention that after I worked out the man's birth date, I went on-line to see whether anyone else had it, by way of getting some biographical sense of how such a chart might manifest. I found two people: one, a Scottish political leader (born later in the morning,) and the other, the rock musician Elvis Costello (no known birth time.) The politician's Wikipedia bio said nothing about his personal life. However, I learned from a New Yorker article that Costello indeed had an alcohol problem until he was able to give up drinking-- so planetary potentials can manifest differently over the life course.
Without a birthtime, I don't want to comment more than saying a lot of people will have that configuration and not have any problems, we need some way to discern when it will show up and when not.

Quote:
One thing that is hard to read off a blind chart is the native's social context. If this man had been born in an upper middle class family in the US, it would have been expected that he would attend university after completing high school, as a matter of course, and been exposed to opportunities to develop his talents. But if we are looking at a working-class or poor family in a coal-mining town where higher education wasn't valued because it was seen as unobtainable (and even suspect,) then you could easily have an intelligent man with some artistic ability who was never able to use his mind beyond engaging in TV quiz shows, and whose artistic abilities (Venus domiciled in Libra, ruling the MC) were never encouraged or developed. In the third house, a Libra Venus might merely manifest as a soft speaking voice.
Yes, social context is important for some things, but not for something like creativity. If one is creative, one finds ways to express it even if it is something as simple as wearing exotic shoes. But believe me here, this native is pragmatic in the extreme with no apparent creativity. He uses what works the most effectively with no care for appearance or style. His is very much a life dominated by this Saturn.

Quote:
If you know or knew this person well, Konrad-- do you suppose he really repressed the strong, vibrant, and dominating qualities that he had within him to express? Put differently, do you think he felt/feels disappointed in his life?
I know him well, and no there is no repression of vibrance or dominance. He has a playful side, but that is to be expected with Mercury rising and Venus conjoined Spirit. As I said, I think he holds some regrets due to previous inaction or fear of taking a risk.


Quote:
Thanks again for the feedback, Konrad. It is how I learn astrology.
You're welcome, I'm glad I could help. Again, I have a lot of respect for you being willing to read the chart blind, it is an intimidating thing. Looking at how you practice astrology, it is not the best thing either since you are focused very much on the internal person. Who knows, perhaps if the native was here, he would refute what I am saying. I am only going off of my observation and my own experience of him which, of course, has its own limitations.
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  #128  
Unread 01-29-2015, 11:21 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

I won't respond at great length, but one traditional astrology seminar I attended had Richard Nixon's birth chart as an example, and we worked through a fair bit of it.

Needless to say, it was quite descriptive without Pluto.

Saturn has always ruled death, as far as I know, and death-rebirth can be seen a couple of ways, most commonly Saturn-Sun, a bit more esoterically in the idea that souls enter the world by way of the gate in Cancer (moon) and leave by way of Capricorn (Saturn again). Why anyone would need to see death and rebirth in an individual's nativity is somewhat beyond me. I'm assuming you're using it as a metaphor for extreme change in the native's life.

Breakdowns - probably an afflicted Moon or Mercury, but you'd need to see the whole chart. I think modern astrology agrees here, at least I hope it doesn't immediately look to only Pluto!

Crime and trauma can show up in the malefics, also Mercury, some of the lots can indicate this stuff, again, you would want to see the whole chart. Go look at that Ptolemy passage you so object to - he's describing criminals there, though I think you missed a lot of the implied technique.

I disagree with the bit about power dynamics, or at least I think it's far more involved than that, and can be judged in a chart with traditional planets, albeit it is a devilishly complicated thing to do. Pluto in no way simplifies it down. By your lights, Pluto is wildly active in my chart. I have no power in the world, and don't particularly desire it. But the study and understanding of power has been a lifelong fascination.

I think Pluto may be more applicable to psychological or humanistic astrology than to traditional astrology. I strongly suspect that there's also an issue in how language is used in modern astrology vice traditional that makes it seem that Pluto is so important. In my own work, the outers have been 'dumb notes' way too many times, or doing nothing in a chart when they should have been doing something - so I don't use them. But my experience is obviously not yours.
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  #129  
Unread 01-30-2015, 12:09 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Konrad and Monk, thanks for the feedback.

Just to give you an example of how Pluto works in my life, is that I have natal Pluto opposite the sun. It is wide, but connected by a midpoint with Saturn. The dysfunctional father definition of Pluto was operative in my case.

I was fortunate to have parents able to look after my material needs, and after I went away to college, I continued with graduate studies and eventually landed a very responsible job. I did a lot of things "right"-- married, two beautiful children, home ownership, active in the community, optimistic about life, and on an upward career trajectory.

Then I went through a very difficult period when the center just didn't hold. I didn't know why I was on the planet or what I was supposed to be doing with my life. All of the things that I thought were so important just seemed superficial.
I was starting to "split" under enormous stress, and got myself into the hands of a psychiatrist. I was diagnosed with PTSD related to childhood trauma, and began regular sessions with a clinical psychologist. She recommended residential treatment program, but at the time my husband was woefully under-employed, and I needed to support and co-raise our children.

At this point, I picked up astrology-- and modern was pretty much all that was available. This difficult period commenced with a transiting Pluto square natal Pluto, and became really intense with Pluto square natal sun. Pluto square Mars was equally difficult. Transiting Pluto square sun has been described as feeling "stripped of your skin," which I think is pretty accurate. But as my old self-image was sloughing off, I discovered a whole new world of astrology and metaphysical studies that had no place in my prior more conventional life.

Interestingly, I had another minor Plutonian-type kerfuffle a few years ago, and sure enough: transiting Pluto semi-square sun.

So personal experience is one reason why I think Pluto does have a place in the horoscope. I don't relate in the same way to Saturn: I view him as my wisest teacher. Saturn's lessons are pretty straight-forward. But with Pluto, you can follow Saturn's rules (frugality, hard-work, deferred gratification, patience, &c,) and still have your life fall down around your ears.

I've posted my "close enough" chart here. I don't post my real chart or birth data for privacy purposes.
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  #130  
Unread 01-30-2015, 05:03 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Waybread, while what you say is fair, traditional astrology can find other explanations to, for example, your "plutonian" father.

In a whole sign house system, your Sun would be placed inside the 6th house, not a good position, and in detriment (Aquarius), making it a very "weakened" planet (which can be translated as problematic in your life).

You can also extract the same info from Jupiter, ruler of the 4th, in its fall, as problems in the home enviroment.

The personal problems are attributed, to a large amount of planetary placements and debilities/dignities, but mainly the ruler of the asc in the 6th isn't always a good place for stability.

The bad reception from Mercury (ruler of the Asc) towards the sun also gives testimony of it.

Now the pluto transits could be counter-argued with the profection technique of year-->day + a solar return, but that can't be done without a proper ascendant degree.
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  #131  
Unread 01-30-2015, 05:29 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Yes, of course one could get a good interpretation of my chart using traditional methods, minus Pluto. Also using Vedic, Chinese, or some other methods. As I indicated above, if we find repetition in a chart, then we've probably got something.

You might disagree with this, but I have seen good interpretations stemming from traditional, modern, and Vedic, yet their methods are different. So I don't make a case for one method as being independently, objectively better than another: merely that each astrologer should work with the method that resonates best with her or him.

Also, as a 60-something, I've already lived most of my life, so I have a good sense has to how it has worked out. I really find Pluto to be an efficient explanation. With a night birth, I've also used Saturn as a symbol of my father, and I find this works well.

In terms of the deficiencies of my poor chart using traditional methods, I might mention that I have 3 university degrees, had a responsible, decent-paying career for over 30 years, I've been married (2x) for a total of 38 years, I have two super adult children, and was able to retire early at a comfortable if not lavish lifestyle. My life has had its share of speed bumps, but then most people's lives do.

I am happy with my horoscope and wouldn't change it if I could. Where you see Jupiter in its fall in Capricorn in the 4th, for example, I see a lot of enjoyment (Jupiter) from antiques, genealogy, some old house restorations, and studying ancient religions. I grew up with very old-fashioned parents (Capricorn), but also in a house full of books, where higher education was prized (Jupiter). With Sagittarius on the cusp of my 4th house in the quadrant house systems, I see reinforcement for these life experiences. Plus, after I left home to go away to college, I lived in 4 different states and in 3 different countries. These have all been "broadening" experiences. My husband and I have a small RV, and have made numerous long-distance trips in it.

I haven't found a 6th house sun (and it's in the 5th in quadrant systems) to be problematic. I have long had a big commitment to service in various forms. Only lately have I dropped service commitments to professional and non-profit organizations. (Hey, I'm retired!)

I could go on in this way, but let me just say that with Saturn-Pluto opposite my sun (typical of boomer Aquarians) I learned to stick up for myself at a young age. So sometimes chart difficulties force the individual to develop and grow in those areas more strongly than the "easy" aspects do. (Cf. Harding and Harvey, Working with Astrology, on 2-series aspects.)

Some modern astrologers think that planetary aspects tend to run in families. Thanks to my family history records, I've been able to trace sun-Pluto contacts through several generations. My father (chart attached) was a very Plutonian person. The Pluto-sun-Mercury conjunction extends to his moon via midpoints.

I have no doubt that traditional astrologers can give fine interpretations without Pluto, but I find it adds a lot of interpretive value.

Dirius, thanks for the reading-- I'll mull it over further when I have a moment.
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  #132  
Unread 01-30-2015, 06:56 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Please Note JupiterAsc,

I buy my Programmes regarding fixed stars, and test them regarding astronomy, can you please show how much money you have spent or show programmes that you have regarding astrology, obviously they cost money, and the world wide web isn't the place to go to get FREE astrology, usually if you want it without cost you have problems, you shouldn't have an opinion, buy it or don't have an opinion!

I don't expect anything by my insights regarding mundane astrology but have lots of input, so may be curious about the reasons for input.

Obviously i may test the water over a birth chart regarding input, there are many combinations both traditional and modern, however i look to myself with input, but not that i'm interested regarding ego, but am with what comes to me regarding mundane astrology, DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPENSIVE FIXED STAR PROGRAMMES, what it costs you against hearsay on the WWW is a factor!

I understand Waybread, a lot of astrologers don't use asteroids, or Quintiles/Biquintiles, i can understand that, i'm only trying to understand my input regarding Mundane Matters, there is no ego in that!

Hell i'm only trying to find an answer to why i could find fixed star placements to many events in history, but you wouldn't know that by going to the "doesn't give you a clue but freebie/often wrong, WWW"

To be respected please buy astrology then buy astronomy programmes to compare, however it will cost you a lot of money, to have an opinion regarding fixed stars, it is the way to go in dealing with someone that will go through 2000 years of mundane fixed stars history, obviously i will go through the modern Olympic history on another thread.

Please note i'm not about ego regarding fixed stars, but trying to understand, thus i might have questions regarding my birth chart, but only to understand my input regarding what i write, not about ego!
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  #133  
Unread 01-30-2015, 07:35 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Oh, gosh, Monk-- I would never think that an interest in fixed stars is about ego!

I think we get bitten by an astrology bug, but it's not the same bug for everyone. I wish you all the best, wherever your studies may take you.

Speaking of which, Dirius, maybe I'll switch to sidereal astrology. Jupiter, no longer in its fall, will be domiciled in Sagittarius; and then my moon picks up a Cancer domicile, as well.

This is part of the reason why I don't have a "one size fits all" belief bout astrological schools of thought.
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  #134  
Unread 01-30-2015, 08:11 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Please Note JupiterAsc,

I buy my Programmes regarding fixed stars, and test them regarding astronomy,
can you please show how much money you have spent or show programmes that you have regarding astrology,
obviously they cost money, and the world wide web isn't the place to go to get FREE astrology,
usually if you want it without cost you have problems, you shouldn't have an opinion, buy it or don't have an opinion!


I don't expect anything by my insights regarding mundane astrology but have lots of input, so may be curious about the reasons for input.

Obviously i may test the water over a birth chart regarding input, there are many combinations both traditional and modern, however i look to myself with input, but not that i'm interested regarding ego, but am with what comes to me regarding mundane astrology, DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPENSIVE FIXED STAR PROGRAMMES, what it costs you against hearsay on the WWW is a factor!

I understand Waybread, a lot of astrologers don't use asteroids, or Quintiles/Biquintiles, i can understand that, i'm only trying to understand my input regarding Mundane Matters, there is no ego in that!

Hell i'm only trying to find an answer to why i could find fixed star placements to many events in history, but you wouldn't know that by going to the "doesn't give you a clue but freebie/often wrong, WWW"

To be respected please buy astrology then buy astronomy programmes to compare, however it will cost you a lot of money, to have an opinion regarding fixed stars, it is the way to go in dealing with someone that will go through 2000 years of mundane fixed stars history, obviously i will go through the modern Olympic history on another thread.

Please note i'm not about ego regarding fixed stars, but trying to understand, thus i might have questions regarding my birth chart, but only to understand my input regarding what i write, not about ego!
Monk I bought Solar Fire, Kepler, found them disappointing
so
then bought PORPHYRIUS MAGUS
http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1

and

DELPHIC ORACLE
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/

prices are on the websites
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  #135  
Unread 01-30-2015, 08:28 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc,

Then Great, but i found Brady's parans accurate by parans and astronomy programmes you still ask for advice about the oldest of astrology being parans, including mystery parans that were asked for recently, is this you?

By being so honest myself, who are the mystery fixed parans for?

Hi Waybread, obviously i'm very active in mundane parans, obviously the oldest of all astrology regarding fixed stars, in being only curious about why, i might see why in a natal chart, which is nothing to do about ego, but i do have Bernedette Brady's paran fixed star parans, obviously to find one that corresponded to astronomy this cost mega money, that was accurate!


Obviously i do post many links about mundane electional astrology criteria that is accurate whether electional or to do with synchronicity, however it is valuable however way you look at it, and obviously many charts that show a connection is better than one!
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  #136  
Unread 01-30-2015, 08:54 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Hi JupiterAsc,

Then Great, but i found Brady's parans accurate by parans and astronomy programmes you still ask for advice about the oldest of astrology being parans, including mystery parans that were asked for recently, is this you?

By being so honest myself, who are the mystery fixed parans for?

Hi Waybread, obviously i'm very active in mundane parans, obviously the oldest of all astrology regarding fixed stars, in being only curious about why, i might see why in a natal chart, which is nothing to do about ego, but i do have Bernedette Brady's paran fixed star parans, obviously to find one that corresponded to astronomy this cost mega money, that was accurate!


Obviously i do post many links about mundane electional astrology criteria that is accurate whether electional or to do with synchronicity, however it is valuable however way you look at it, and obviously many charts that show a connection is better than one!
Hi Monk, it's simply a natal chart with very interesting parans to several fixed stars
I've considered purchasing Bernadette Brady's program on fixed star parans
but Rumen Kolev's program that I previously mentioned
PORPHYRIUS MAGUS http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1
gives paranatellonata
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-30-2015 at 10:11 PM. Reason: correction
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  #137  
Unread 01-30-2015, 08:58 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc,

It isn't my fault that you buy programmes that you find inaccurate, i could and did tell you that, over the years you have known me.

If you buy an accurate expensive astronomy programme, you nearly always have to tap in longitude and latitude yourself, summer time, if before at location regarding date etc etc. so is better that you buy a good paran fixed star astrology programme to help you.

Obviously there are few as respected as Bernadette Brady in this field to compare regarding fixed stars, obviously her programme has faults as in the summer time reajustment to summer time in America in 2007, which effects midnight daymarkers.

But you are not buying the best, to compare, as i have always told you through the years we have been in contact?

Obviously you are not satisfied with programmes you have bought, one would perhaps wonder why you didn't buy Brady to compare?

http://www.zyntara.com/

Last edited by Monk; 01-30-2015 at 09:38 PM.
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  #138  
Unread 01-30-2015, 10:04 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Kolev's program is fantastically accurate, but does not list parans. It lists paranatellonta which is the Ecliptical degree that rises with the specified star. Brady's parans are a misunderstanding of Mesopotamian observational astronomy. You'll not find her parans (which is a mistaken use of the term anyway) in any ancient text.
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  #139  
Unread 01-30-2015, 10:10 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post

Kolev's program is fantastically accurate, but does not list parans.
It lists paranatellonta which is the Ecliptical degree that rises with the specified star.
Brady's parans are a misunderstanding of Mesopotamian observational astronomy.
You'll not find her parans (which is a mistaken use of the term anyway) in any ancient text.

Monk for your interest shall upload a screenshot after inputting your data for time and place of birth as given on the link
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  #140  
Unread 01-30-2015, 10:51 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Ancient Text about Paranatellonta below:-

Obviously the most ancient of all astrology:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10705808

Now this is interesting, as Brady's parans explains most terrorist attacks that are meaningful in the West, most important dates regarding a democratic process in most countries, a great deal of assassinations, many aspects of war during the last 2000 years, many aspects of religion, and calendars, however i'm not completely sure this is electional astrology or synchronicity, however if it was synchronicity it would prove astrology beyond doubt!

Obviously my parans can be found on link #9 on link below:-

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44021

It must be noted that i'm trying to find other measures other than Pluto for my own threads regarding birth chart, thus in effect trying to make traditional astrologers job easier to find something else, however i don't see why i should try regarding my threads about electional mundane astrology Ha Ha!
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  #141  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:02 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Ancient Text about Paranatellonta below:-

Obviously the most ancient of all astrology:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10705808

Now this is interesting, as Brady's parans explains most terrorist attacks that are meaningful in the West, most important dates regarding a democratic process in most countries, a great deal of assassinations, many aspects of war during the last 2000 years, many aspects of religion, and calendars, however i'm not completely sure this is electional astrology or synchronicity, however if it was synchronicity it would prove astrology beyond doubt!

Obviously my parans can be found on link #9 on link below:-

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44021

It must be noted that i'm trying to find other measures other than Pluto for my own threads regarding birth chart, thus in effect trying to make traditional astrologers job easier to find something else, however i don't see why i should try regarding my threads about electional mundane astrology Ha Ha!
Monk - screenshot of your natal paranatellonata
as noted by Kolev's PORPHYRIUS MAGUS
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MONK PARANATELLONATA.jpg (72.1 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg MONK PARANATELLONATA 2.jpg (54.4 KB, 5 views)
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  #142  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:13 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

As JupiterAsc knows, the ecliptic measure is called Projected and isn't accurate with fixed stars, parans use location and use angles, projected measure will only show the same as parans if a star is actually sitting on the ecliptic.

Most stars don't sit on the ecliptic so isn't accurate to parans or astronomy, example would be using projected, then all stars would be on the line of the apparent path of the Sun, thus in a line, which they are not.

Actually as my M.C. is aligned to Regulus, it is the same for projected or paran, only because Regulus sits on ecliptic or apparent path of the Sun through the Constellations in a course of a year!
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  #143  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:18 PM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Ancient Text about Paranatellonta below:-

Obviously the most ancient of all astrology:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10705808

Now this is interesting, as Brady's parans explains most terrorist attacks that are meaningful in the West, most important dates regarding a democratic process in most countries, a great deal of assassinations, many aspects of war during the last 2000 years, many aspects of religion, and calendars, however i'm not completely sure this is electional astrology or synchronicity, however if it was synchronicity it would prove astrology beyond doubt!

Obviously my parans can be found on link #9 on link below:-

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=44021

It must be noted that i'm trying to find other measures other than Pluto for my own threads regarding birth chart, thus in effect trying to make traditional astrologers job easier to find something else, however i don't see why i should try regarding my threads about electional mundane astrology Ha Ha!
Right, Monk. Do you have access to the article and can you read German? The abstract doesn't prove anything in itself. That the ancient cultures used the appearance and disappearance of stars as markers of time is not in doubt, but that is a little bit away from attaching astrological significance to the planets rising, setting and culminating with stars. I don't know your research, and I am not an mundane astrologer, so I am not doubting your findings, just that the practice as Brady presents it is not really ancient. Of course, this doesn't validate it or invalidate it in anyway. When I firt heard what she was doing, I was reminded of the Mesopotamians' ziqpu stars which were used to measure time.

Paranatellonta as listed in the Brill Online Reference:

"(παρανατέλλοντα; paranatéllonta), stars 'rising alongside' (or συνανατέλλοντα/synanatéllonta, 'rising simultaneously') are constellations, parts thereof (also of the signs of the zodiac) or especially bright individual stars, which become visible or invisible at the same time as certain degrees or decanal sections (segments of 10 degrees) of the ecliptic. They were first described by Aratus [4] who was criticized by Hipparchus [6]. In antiquity, they were used for determining the seasons and for distinguishing zodiacal prognoses by astrologers. In addition to the four basic types (acronycal and heliacal (= cosmic) rise or descent: i.e. evening's first, evening's last, morning's first, and morning's last visibility), there are the constant ecliptic lengths, which are dependent on latitude, and, especially for the circumpolar constellations, also the two culminations. Teucer of Babylon created speculative links between the signs of the zodiac and the paranatellonta, with specific annual dates of particular importance [1; 2]. He was followed by Manilius [III 1], Firmicus Maternus, Rhetorius and others who also personified the paranatellonta (e.g. as stellar deities). A rich iconography (illuminations in manuscripts as well as descriptive texts) developed from this, which continued into the 16th cent."

http://referenceworks.brillonline.co...llonta-e907920
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  #144  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:21 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc,

Yes a lot is the same, but very confusing without star pictures that show stars on angles, i can only think you have been confused by readout, or you would have agreed to my many mundane postings regarding countries!

Buy Brady's Starlight, it will clarify, then you will see how silly projected measure is with fixed stars especially on asc/desc!
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  #145  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:43 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi Konrad,

Actually if Sirius rose with the Sun too far back regarding Egyptians or Greeks, they would look towards an amber light in the East, while they could still see Sirius along horizon, however when the Greeks invaded Egypt, they set mathematics in place and leading up to 0045BC they were, i'm sure being able to set Sirius and Sun together on horizon however they couldn't see it, the sky was too bright on date!

This exact process has followed us down the ages regarding mundane astrology in a great deal of charts up to modern times, JupiterAsc can lead you to many of my threads, ask him, it is fascinating, however although i think it is electional mundane paran astrology, i could be wrong and being synchronicity! It would be very exciting if it was synchronicity for proving astrology!

Obviously my intention regarding my birthchart was to find many observations regarding why i make posts regarding my area of interest, pushing away from Pluto influence.

After all, one that makes a lot of posts regarding mundane astrology and i'm a good investigator, we must see why by birthchart!
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  #146  
Unread 01-30-2015, 11:50 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi Konrad,

Keep your eye on thread below, all modern Olympics from 1896 have a connection to either Sirius or Alnilam up to 2012, it will take me time to complete, but i will, it will fascinate JupiterAsc as well!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=81618
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  #147  
Unread 01-31-2015, 12:10 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Hi Konrad,

Actually if Sirius rose with the Sun too far back regarding Egyptians or Greeks, they would look towards an amber light in the East, while they could still see Sirius along horizon, however when the Greeks invaded Egypt, they set mathematics in place and leading up to 0045BC they were, i'm sure being able to set Sirius and Sun together on horizon however they couldn't see it, the sky was too bright on date!

This exact process has followed us down the ages regarding mundane astrology in a great deal of charts up to modern times, JupiterAsc can lead you to many of my threads, ask him, it is fascinating, however although i think it is electional mundane paran astrology, i could be wrong and being synchronicity! It would be very exciting if it was synchronicity for proving astrology!

Obviously my intention regarding my birthchart was to find many observations
regarding why i make posts regarding my area of interest,
pushing away from Pluto influence.

After all, one that makes a lot of posts regarding mundane astrology
and i'm a good investigator,
we must see why by birthchart!

Hi Monk, keep in mind Konrad said earlier on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post


As for Monk's chart, JupiterASC, I don't really have the time to delineate it,

but I am very interested in his Mercury ruling Spirit while in the bounds of Saturn

- always a good sign of one able for deep research, especially in this sort of subject.

and also
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post

For what it's worth, I have noted that planets on the angles which have stars conjoined tend to colour the manifestations of the star involved. With Jupiter, Mercury and the Moon there, Mars in aversion and cadent I would expect less pronounced Martial traits in Monk's life. This sort of thing is definitely a good research project, one for the future as far as I personally am concerned. I'm not too fond of Ecliptial degree conjunctions of stars though unless the star is on the Ecliptic, so even if I saw some use in Pluto, I doubt I would use it with stars as it is so far from the Ecliptic a lot of the time.

In Monk's case, Pluto is over 10 degrees north of the Ecliptic, the Moon around 4 south of it,
so even she I wouldn't consider as modifying Regulus too much.

Mercury and Jupiter though, for sure.
In fact, looking at that conjunction in Porpyhrius Magus, if it wasn't for both being under the beams,
it would have been a very powerful sign in a nativity
.

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  #148  
Unread 01-31-2015, 12:14 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Please note Konrad, links that appear in different countries can come up in a different lanquage, as in German, however the link i gave should come up in English in the U.K.

JupiterAsc had trouble with an H.R. Giger link i gave, but i don't have any trouble bringing it up, i'm afraid with members from different countries, links may not be in synch?

I'm rusty with German although i worked there for several years, many years ago!
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  #149  
Unread 01-31-2015, 12:29 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Please Note JupiterAsc, i was born on 08/08/1956, at 13:59pm, in London, M.C. is 29*:32' Leo, and Regulus is conjunct M.C., Pluto is 27*53' Leo, thus approx. 1 Degree 39' from M.C., you are at fault with calcalation

How can you with planets regarding astrology think of Pluto not being close to M.C. whether or not it has influence?

The ecliptic because planets are close to the Sun, are how we value them on any astrology programme, no reason to mention ecliptic with planets that revolve around the Sun???

I'm confused by your statement.

The problem arises when we use the ecliptic for stars that don't orbit the Sun!

Last edited by Monk; 01-31-2015 at 12:32 AM.
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Unread 01-31-2015, 02:10 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Obviously my Moon is approx. 15 degrees off M.C. in Virgo, i have no idea what chart you are looking at, if you quote people make sure the research is correct, rule No.1.

Sorry for being brutal JupiterAsc, but i don't like sloppy thinking or research especially with my own chart!

I hope we are still talking?....humour?
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