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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #101  
Unread 01-28-2015, 11:28 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Dirius, back again with just a few more comments on your post of 7:08.

I think you've really got a straw man argument going about modern astrology. Also, the fallacy of over-generalization. If modern astrology were as inconsistent and wrong-headed as you suggest, I wouldn't practice it, either.

I don't think you have a solid grasp of the modern outers. Significations given to the outer planets were made on the basis of how they were observed to work in many natal and mundane horoscopes, on mythological meanings associated with them (which is equally true for traditional planets,) or via its sign associations, once those links became established.

Just as you went to some pains to enlighten me on the differences between the moon and Venus, I could enlighten you on the differences between Neptune and the rest of the solar system. But that is constantly turning us away from the topic of this thread.

I could equally explain just what the Hellenistic astrologers took from Babylon and Egypt, and what they didn't-- but again, this is getting us a long way from Pluto.

Further, it's not that I lack a basic understanding of traditional western astrology methods. It is that I have looked at it (neglecting to mention my copy of Dykes, Traditional Astrology for Today,) and it just doesn't resonate for me the way modern astrology does. I don't care for its concerns with the micro essential dignities, the idea of "bad" houses, or its philosophy (as set forth by Dykes and others I could name.)

Having said that, if others wish to practice it and get good practical results, more power to their wheel.

But this isn't good enough for some trads, who don't want anyone to practice modern astrology. One wonders what they make of Vedic or Chinese astrology.

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  #102  
Unread 01-28-2015, 11:34 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Of course, the example of america just as proof of a time of change, and the shift on perspective.

The issue of planets being benefics or malefics, is just about their usual nature. The logic behind it is regarding how they can act according to this nature.

Imagine a good person (venus) that usually helps other people (benefic in nature), having an awful day and being in a bad mood (in its detriment), will probably not be able to be much help to anyone right? The same goes for a malefic (saturn), that usually harms others, having a great day, making him behave a little better.

The point in comparison is that planets act according to their nature if they can, but depending on circumstances.

The problem with the outer planets, and modern astrology, is that outers seem to be treated according to the authors will. Thus, planets like pluto or neptune can be treated to represent good or bad things at will, and aspects to this planets are treated as either good or bad, depending on the author's choice. There is no "real" guideline, so the general theory behind the authors seems shady, rather than "well researched".

The thing about concept VS technique, is that the concepts in traditional astrology are pretty clear, the thing is about how to employ the concepts.

In modern astrology, it usually seems most people arrive at different conclusions, based on the same aspect or placement. Some will, for example, see a pluto in the 10th as something good, as something bad, and will have a different description about how it affects the individual.

Furthermore, the very loose and abstract concepts that are used to describe the outers, combined with the very free interpretation authors use of them, makes it seem pretty unrealistic.

I'll give you an example:

I can say that someone who has a pluto in the first house is "a very deep thinker that reinvents himself at any given moment".

But I'm not really saying much...just making abstract comments about something that my by true to some degree to any person.
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  #103  
Unread 01-28-2015, 11:56 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Konrad, I can look at the chart you posted on page 3 if you don't mind using another format: some of the glyphs were too faint for me to make out. The Astrodienst charts are by far the easiest to read. Then can you clarify whose chart this is? Yours?

You mentioned orbs in another post. Generally with conjunctions and major aspects, I use 10 degrees for the luminaries, but by the time an orb is9-10 degrees out, I like to see if anything else is going on to reinforce it. I use 5-7 degrees for the planets. If using a minor aspect or parallels/counter-parallels, the orbs shrink to just a couple of degrees. I would do this for the modern outers, as well; but with something like the boomer Neptune-Pluto sextile or the current Uranus-Pluto square, I recognize these more as generational effects.

Miss Scorpio-- exactly. I dismissed Chiron until I had a dramatic example of it working. Many horary astrologers use/d the outer planets as supplementary data. Olivia Barclay did. Modern horary astrologers would look at the modern outers as sign rulers.

Oddity, thanks for the correction on the correct book in Ptolemy. But look-- the point is that nobody talks to or about anybody that way today when doing a horoscope reading. I've read several previous posts from trads saying that the Hellenists meant their doom-and-gloom statements to be suggestive, not factual; but the Hellenistic astrologers themselves do not qualify their writings in that manner. (At least, not that I can recall.) The softening-around-the-edges seems to be a modern gloss on some very dire predictions.

Which is why I sometimes call today's traditional astrology neo-traditional. Because it isn't identical to the astrology of past historical periods anymore than neo-colonial architecture is actually colonial architecture. If you're going to take what a historical author wrote but then make it more acceptable for us today, then a change is taking place.

Incidentally, I happen to have Mars opposite Saturn. In most unequal house systems, they're in the 6th and 12th houses, respectively, which I don't think Ptolemy saw as good placements. Incidentally, I don't equate him with other Hellenistic authors, anymore than I equate all modern authors. We have to look at what each of them said in his own words.
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  #104  
Unread 01-28-2015, 11:58 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, back again with just a few more comments on your post of 7:08.

I think you've really got a straw man argument going about modern astrology. Also, the fallacy of over-generalization. If modern astrology were as inconsistent and wrong-headed as you suggest, I wouldn't practice it, either.

I don't think you have a solid grasp of the modern outers. Significations given to the outer planets were made on the basis of how they were observed to work in many natal and mundane horoscopes, on mythological meanings associated with them (which is equally true for traditional planets,) or via its sign associations, once those links became established.
There are a few problems with this argument>

First of all there is no "mythological" concept awarded to the outers. For example Uranus was at one stage named Hershel, at another George. The name "uranus" wasn't applied for some relation to the greco-roman deity, but rather to keep it in line with the general name of the planets.

For instance, Mercury is the representation of the god Hermes, because hermes was "the messenger of the gods", and this is associated with the movement of Mercury in the sky, following the Sun. The same is applied to for example, Saturn, with its long cycles, naming him after the god of time.

The outers were NOT named for mythological reasons. They have greek names just because is seemed better to keep naming them that way. Uranus could have been easily called "neptune". It is a random ocurrence that it shares the name of Uranus.

Quote:

Just as you went to some pains to enlighten me on the differences between the moon and Venus, I could enlighten you on the differences between Neptune and the rest of the solar system. But that is constantly turning us away from the topic of this thread.

I could equally explain just what the Hellenistic astrologers took from Babylon and Egypt, and what they didn't-- but again, this is getting us a long way from Pluto.
But again, most descriptions are abstract meanings. I can also invent and say that for example, the moon Europa (jupiter's moon), represents:

"the exasperation of tired mothers and their awuful children"
"the renovation of youthfull goals in adulthood"

And so on, and so on. Most of them, abstract overcomplicated meanings.

Quote:
Further, it's not that I lack a basic understanding of traditional western astrology methods. It is that I have looked at it (neglecting to mention my copy of Dykes, Traditional Astrology for Today,) and it just doesn't resonate for me the way modern astrology does. I don't care for its concerns with the micro essential dignities, the idea of "bad" houses, or its philosophy (as set forth by Dykes and others I could name.)

Having said that, if others wish to practice it and get good practical results, more power to their wheel.

But this isn't good enough for some trads, who don't want anyone to practice modern astrology. One wonders what they make of Vedic or Chinese astrology.
We don't care what you practice. The op made a topic about the practice in question, we merely explain our view. Obviously, by association, our views would obviously encourage anyone to drop the outers. But that would be your choice, we are not trying to impose it.
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  #105  
Unread 01-29-2015, 12:32 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Oddity, thanks for the correction on the correct book in Ptolemy. But look-- the point is that nobody talks to or about anybody that way today when doing a horoscope reading. I've read several previous posts from trads saying that the Hellenists meant their doom-and-gloom statements to be suggestive, not factual; but the Hellenistic astrologers themselves do not qualify their writings in that manner. (At least, not that I can recall.) The softening-around-the-edges seems to be a modern gloss on some very dire predictions.

Which is why I sometimes call today's traditional astrology neo-traditional. Because it isn't identical to the astrology of past historical periods anymore than neo-colonial architecture is actually colonial architecture. If you're going to take what a historical author wrote but then make it more acceptable for us today, then a change is taking place.

Incidentally, I happen to have Mars opposite Saturn. In most unequal house systems, they're in the 6th and 12th houses, respectively, which I don't think Ptolemy saw as good placements. Incidentally, I don't equate him with other Hellenistic authors, anymore than I equate all modern authors. We have to look at what each of them said in his own words.
I think you missed my point, but we seem to do that a lot here, sadly. Yes, when you look at the cookbook parts of ancient and medieval texts, you will see both stunningly bad and good extreme delineations. When you look at ancient and medieval authors delineating an actual chart that belongs to someone, you don't see many of the extremes. So it's not me who's changing things, and again, I think the extremes were there to help students remember principles - nobody's chart is just Saturn opposite Mars, for example. Which, by the way, in 12-6 is possibly the best place for it - unfortunate houses, but neither of them see the ascendant, so it's not something that's going to act out a lot. And you've probably got some other mitigating factors.

We've got textual evidence against the idea that the ancients and medievalists simply read off the 'cookbook definition' for each of the planetary placements as their delineations, because we have quite a few of those delineations. Not as many as we'd like, obviously, but enough to say that they were looking at things within the context of the entire chart.

As for mythology, it might have arisen because of the movements and perceived effects of the planets, instead of the other way around. It's an intriguing possibility. We don't know. But we do know that most discussion of planetary placement and effect in the old literature is refreshingly myth-free. I think it's safe to say that it wasn't until the romantics, and God help us, the theosophists came along, and then the Jungians, that myth played a significant role in astrological interpretation.
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  #106  
Unread 01-29-2015, 12:44 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

But I certainly empathise with not being able to see charts very well on account of age or bad eyesight!

So I guesstimated the date and co-ords and ran up the chart in Janus (which is the easiest to read format I've yet found).

Placidus, with outer planets. If it isn't big enough when you open it, clicking should enlarge it.
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JUPITERASC (01-29-2015)
  #107  
Unread 01-29-2015, 01:19 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
There are a few problems with this argument>

First of all there is no "mythological" concept awarded to the outers. For example Uranus was at one stage named Hershel, at another George. The name "uranus" wasn't applied for some relation to the greco-roman deity, but rather to keep it in line with the general name of the planets.
Dirius, a terrific site on Greek mythology is www.theoi.com . I am not sure what you mean by "the general names of the planets," but I assume you mean the reason that, internationally, non-British astronomers did not agree with the name George's Planet, and reasoned (from inner to outer) according to Greek mythology (theogeny) in which Jupiter (Zeus) was the father of some of the inner planets' namesake gods, Saturn (Kronos) was the father of Jupiter, and Uranus (Ouranos) was the father of Saturn. Note that in ancient Greek the name Ouranos also meant the starry sky, or dome of heaven. In some texts, Ouranos means both the god and the sky. This explains why modern astrologers gave the modern rulership of astrology to Uranus.

Quote:
For instance, Mercury is the representation of the god Hermes, because hermes was "the messenger of the gods", and this is associated with the movement of Mercury in the sky, following the Sun. The same is applied to for example, Saturn, with its long cycles, naming him after the god of time.
Mercury is an excellent example of the role of mythology in assigning planets' meanings. I note that Mercury stays so close to the sun that Jupiter and Saturn apparently do not communicate through it very often. The first samesake for the planet Mercury was the Sumerian goddess Nisaba (or Nidaba,) who ruled counting, star-records, scribes, and grain-stores. Over time her role was usurped by the Babylonian god Nabu, and subsequently by Hermes. To understand why Mercury traditionally rules astrology you have to go back to Sumer.

Quote:
The outers were NOT named for mythological reasons. They have greek names just because is seemed better to keep naming them that way. Uranus could have been easily called "neptune". It is a random ocurrence that it shares the name of Uranus.
Not so, for reasons explained above. Let me know if you need references on this.

Quote:
But again, most descriptions are abstract meanings. I can also invent and say that for e xample, the moon Europa (jupiter's moon), represents:

"the exasperation of tired mothers and their awuful children"
"the renovation of youthfull goals in adulthood"

And so on, and so on. Most of them, abstract overcomplicated meanings.
Not so, Dirius. Which example would you like me to take? There is a well developed mythology about the characters who became Jupiter's satellites. You are aware of the myth of Europa and the Bull. Please realize that there is a way that history happened, and we have detailed records of Greek mythology. Until the mid-20th century, Latin was a normal part of university-bound students' education. In many places, ancient Greek was required for university graduation.

I note that Greek astronomers call planets by their ancient Greek names.

But by all means, if you think the moon Europa is astrologically meaningful, do the research on it. Read hundreds of charts in which you have plotted Europa, and see what pans out.

Quote:
We don't care what you practice. The op made a topic about the practice in question, we merely explain our view. Obviously, by association, our views would obviously encourage anyone to drop the outers. But that would be your choice, we are not trying to impose it.
Dirius, you are sounding more and more moderate and reasonable as your posts progress. Keep up the good work.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #108  
Unread 01-29-2015, 02:05 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Well waybread, if you are going to twist around every word I say for your own convinience, then obviously you are going to find something to protest.

If you'd rather assume that the naming of the outers was because of some astrological implication, that is fine, utterly wrong, but fine.

I never said the names were chosen at random, but rather that the names were not named after the movement of the planet across the sky (which is the origin of the myths). They merely follow the patern of naming celestial bodies after greco-roman myth, not that the new planets themselves actually carry any type of significance with said myths.

The myths of the gods develop by the passing of the planets through the constellations, and association with each other through their simbolic movement in the sky.

The outer planets were named, just to be in accordance with tradition. There was no astrological influence in the naming of the outer planets.

In classic planets:

movement of the planets ---> myth of the gods ---> definition in astrology

In modern outer planets:

pick the name that you like ---> apply to astrology

--------

The europa example was a bad one, but I wasn't trying to exemplify the Europa myth, it was rather the first none astrological body that came to my mind.
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  #109  
Unread 01-29-2015, 02:06 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Oddity, I like to think I'm not a temple-robber or "utterly depraved." However, in a whole-signs house system, the type most common in Antiquity, my Mars-Saturn opposition shifts to the first and 7th houses, where presumably they could create more problems.

I have read the horoscopes in Valens and delineated five of them according to the dating given in Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes, although I had to modify it to get it to work out. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8120 Valens's delineations of his horoscopes are incredibly brief compared to the more detailed delineations characteristic of Hellenistic "cookbooks." Since most of his charts were for eminent people, unsurprisingly he didn't focus on utter miscreants who never amounted to much.

On a thread other than one devoted to Pluto, I would be happy to discuss Hellenistic horoscopes with you.

There is a serious literature on the history of ancient astrology. My go-to book on Babylonian astrology is Francesca Rochberg, The Heavenly Writing. She is a professor of ancient languages with an endowed chair at UC-Berkeley. But essentially in ancient Sumer, the planets were gods. The Babylonians had different names for gods and their planets, yet often used them interchangeably. They particularly saw planets as omens from the gods. We get more separation with the Greeks, but even so, planets were under the particular care of one or more gods. (References available upon request.)

As for ancient astrology being myth-free, this is true of Ptolemy, but not of Manilius. But the ancient Hellenistic astrologers were steeped in the mythology. Why else do we have not only planetary gods, but good and bad daemons (spirits) Firmicus Maternus thought the lore was so sacred that he feared to discuss it. At the risk of offending Muslims and Christians by grouping their theologies with myths (I. e., the gods of Antiquity,) you cansee their religious beliefs, as well.

Oddity, thanks for recasting the chart. It is easier to read, but I'm not sure who's it is. Konrad's?
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Unread 01-29-2015, 02:26 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

It's the chart that Konrad posted for delineation, yes. I don't think it's his own birth chart.

I still haven't seen evidence that it wasn't from the observation of the planets that we got mythology - and the concept of gods. Divine revelation if you prefer.

The basic delineations go so far back that I don't think we can know for certain. The delineations we see in early and medieval works don't rope in much, if any myth to justify them. That didn't come until much, much later.
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  #111  
Unread 01-29-2015, 02:43 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Well waybread, if you are going to twist around every word I say for your own convinience, then obviously you are going to find something to protest.

If you'd rather assume that the naming of the outers was because of some astrological implication, that is fine, utterly wrong, but fine.

I never said the names were chosen at random, but rather that the names were not named after the movement of the planet across the sky (which is the origin of the myths). They merely follow the patern of naming celestial bodies after greco-roman myth, not that the new planets themselves actually carry any type of significance with said myths.

The myths of the gods develop by the passing of the planets through the constellations, and association with each other through their simbolic movement in the sky.

The outer planets were named, just to be in accordance with tradition. There was no astrological influence in the naming of the outer planets.

In classic planets:

movement of the planets ---> myth of the gods ---> definition in astrology

In modern outer planets:

pick the name that you like ---> apply to astrology

--------

The europa example was a bad one, but I wasn't trying to exemplify the Europa myth, it was rather the first none astrological body that came to my mind.
Dirius, I am not trying to twist your words. I do read what you write. It is always possible that I misunderstand what you write, or that your words are not a clear indication of what you mean. If this has happened, please clarify what you mean, rather than blaming me.

So far as I know, based on your earlier posts, you are perfectly fine with someone disagreeing with you.

I have explained to you how Uranus was named. This wasn't a random "pick a god out of a hat" process, but was based upon ancient Greek theogeny.

Would you mind citing your references on your belief that planets got their names from their observed motion across the sky? Although this thesis doesn't agree with what I've read in the history of ancient astrology, possibly I've missed some valuable sources that inform your post.

There was an older interpretation about myths being largely based on planetary movement (cf. Max Müller) but mythographers have largely discredited it. (I think it has merit, but not to the extent of making extreme claims.)

Keeping in mind that a pre-astrology began in Sumer, was developed in Babylon, and diffused to the Greek and Roman worlds with much of its lore and mathematics intact. Roman and Greek mythology also diffused in large part from Babylon, but this happened centuries prior to the introduction of astrology. We have records of Greek mythology beginning ca. 800 BCE (some would say earlier,) long before the development of horoscopic astrology.

You are probably familiar with the books by Tamsyn Barton and Nicholas Campion on the history of ancient astrology-- there is an academic journal literature on it, as well, that I can cite.

You wrote:
Quote:
the names were not named after the movement of the planet across the sky (which is the origin of the myths). They merely follow the patern of naming celestial bodies after greco-roman myth, not that the new planets themselves actually carry any type of significance with said myths.
I clarified above with the example of Mercury, that the planet rules liars and thieves, because of stories about the young god Mercury as a real rascal. These myths pre-dated the introduction of astrology to Greece from Babylon in the 4th century BCE. Mercury was the ancient ruler of astrology because of myths about the god. Mercury.http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesGod.html#Astronomy

Mythology also influenced the names of constellations from which we get astrological signs. Prior to the introduction of astrology, the Greeks had a large weather lore related to the celestial star-calendar. (Cf. Aratus Phaenomena.)

Prior to the introduction of astrology, the Greeks were apt to name the planets after their appearance, not their orbits. For example, the planet Mars was "the fiery one," a decent representation of its light orange colour.
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Unread 01-29-2015, 03:00 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Thanks, Oddity--

Konrad, can you say why you posted this chart or what you hope to get out of posting it? You haven't mentioned if it belongs to a male or female, just for starters! As Liz Greene once said, or words like it, when we see a "blind" chart, we don't know whether it belongs to a person or a chicken.

On the pitfalls of blind chart readings by senior respected astrologers, both traditional and modern, see Rafael Nasser, ed., Under One Sky.
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Unread 01-29-2015, 03:20 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Here's what Konrad wrote. The chart is male, and to the rest:

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
It is getting to the point where this thread is endless opinion and theory, I believe the proof in the pudding is in the eating. There is a chart there I have left on p3 that should be able to be read as significant by all parties in regard to the father and the native himself in his manner and appearance. Waybread already made some comments about Sun/Pluto combinations and without knowing the orbs she uses, even without the conjunction if the two, I'm sure Pluto on a solar-ruled ASC would still be considered significant. There is also plenty there for the Traditionalist. If there is interest, I will be as candid as possible.
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JUPITERASC (01-29-2015)
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Unread 01-29-2015, 03:58 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc, and Waybread,

I'm glad to see this is less heated now, perhaps you can work together, i don't like my chart being noticed too much, i am a God investigator and irrelevant, no one can agree on that!

In regards to Pluto, i would have to find a chart that has a M.C. conjunct Pluto and Regulus, as i have, either by paran or Projected, because Regulus actually sits on the Ecliptic, so both processes will show the same!

Although i went to good schools, since then i have always followed mundane electional astrology, therefore i'm rusty with birth charts!

However Prince, musician, has Regulus/Pluto M.C aligned, however some of his music has been taboo sexual:-

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Prince

I also was in music, but not to the same success as Prince obviously, but my way was though my many quintiles, i am not forward in sexual matters!!!

Hi Konrad, i have only one child, my daughter!

Hi Waybread, many obsessive people have made my life a misery, especially when i only try to help them!

I didn't have a good relationship with my father, he was a top flight mason, not all in esoteric are bad and this also applies to masons, however at a young age i was investigating Pythagoras, golden ratio etc, JupiterAsc will show meaning of that and Grand Quintiles, please note if i die tomorrow, i don't lie!

My mother is a Scorpio, i love her to bits, however she is 87, born on 5th November 1927, although i don't have time, poor dear she suffers from dementia, as many of us will at her age, so Pluto influence can come out as emotianal blackmall.

However as you have read, i have severe dis-ablement, but look after her and myself!

I could talk about my Daughter, however i'm not keen to do so, obviously by what happened in Paris recently, i write about secret societies as JupiterAsc knows, you don't really want to say too much about yourself if you do that with a Pluto M.C. ha ha!

Hi WayBread, thank you for interpretation, it was very true.

Can you do me a favour, bring up a chart for myself, that only shows Quintiles, Bi-Quintiles and Conjunctions, using planets, Ceres, Vesta, Juno, Pallas and Chiron....it isn't a crime to use Mean Node, so change to Mean Node as a point over True mode for the Moon.

The first completed Grand Quintile is completed by the Moon, by midpoints, however i nearly have another one, therefore look to the midpoint between, Look at degrees of the Sun and Moon, doesn't that make the mid-point the angles???

It explains my career in Music before i was disabled and i travelled across Europe, however as far as Pluto being my M.C. we must look at other factors, conjunct Regulus, but also being midpoint of Quintile cluster, energy comes up from Pallas on Nadir, to Pluto/Regulus M.C. i do suffer from Truama from Obsessive influences, however this isn't a normal Pluto M.C., so other factors to make it more influencial must be observed!
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Unread 01-29-2015, 05:31 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Ok, here goes. A blind chart-reading.

Konrad, I assume this is not your chart. I need to stress that the birth chart shows only a potential-- I'd have to take a lot more time to progress the chart and look at transits to get some sense as to how a 60 year-old man developed over the life course. Also, I come from the God Doesn't Make Mistakes school of chart interpretation. A chart could look really difficult, as reflected in the life of the native or the people who live with him, but I think people come into the world with particular charts for a reason, which has to do with soul growth.

Also, I am not standing in here for the whole of modern astrology. I can make mistakes in interpretations that other modern astrologers might do much better.

I've highlighted in brown material relating to Pluto.

With Pluto smack on the ascendant and so close to the sun, however, I wonder of this was a difficult birth, and if the native had some life-threatening or at least highly troublesome events in his early childhood around the ages of 3 (progressed Pluto conjunct sun and 6.5 (solar arc Pluto.) In modern astrology, Pluto would rule the 4th house of early childhood conditioning, moreover. But the native just seems like such a fighter and survivor, probably learning early in life that the best defense is a good offense. (Pluto/sun trine Mars, sextile Saturn.)

This is a very strong chart, actually, with several exalted/domiciled planets (if we want to get traditional about it,) and with Saturn and Mars in mutual reception.

I get the feeling of a lot of emotional pain in this person's life, with the hope that wisdom or learning will help to make sense of it all and to heal the way out of it. (Moon/Uranus/Jupiter square Venus/Neptune.) Women, too, might seem like more trouble than they're worth! (Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.)

That big old Cancer moon is just so strong, but conjunct Uranus and square Neptune and Venus, this man might feel that his rapidly moving emotional roller-coaster causes more pain that it is worth. Sometimes people with Neptune squaring the moon or other personal planets develop drinking or drug habits. The teetotalers either seem to need religion or a form of escapism. The moon conjunct Uranus can indicate some mental instability, such as a highly unpredictable temper. That Jupiter-moon in Cancer looks so loving, yet there is a flip side to it.

This person comes across to others as extremely intense. (Sun-Pluto in the first conjunct ascendant. He identifies with his intelligence, and to come extent, with his ability to bend (I won't say persuade, which is more sociable) others to his views. (Mercury-Pluto orb is wide, but the sun is near their midpoint, so they kind of hang together. Mercury conjunct sun, sextile Saturn.) There is an enormous amount of energy behind this man's desire to project (enforce?) his personality onto others. (Sun trines Mars. Out-of-sign but no matter.) It doesn't help his family members that Virgo can get highly critical of others.

One bright spot for the intense sun is the sextile with Saturn conjunct IC. With Mercury sextile Saturn this could almost be someone with a love of old houses, family history-- or old astrology!

With Venus ruling the MC and Venus domiciled in Libra, together with moon/Neptune/Jupiter-- I'd give this man some artistic talent.

Konrad said we should be able to say something about the father. It's a little tricky with this chart. Saturn is technically the father in a night birth, but with the sun so close to the AC and the modern ruler of the 4th conjunct the AC-- it's tempting to go with a dysfunctional sun-Pluto. But I'll stick with Saturn, which looks like a good relationship.

Of course, a whole lot more could be said about this chart if we take it by each of the houses or major life themes, but I attempted to focus on Pluto.
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Unread 01-29-2015, 05:51 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc,

Thanks for H.R. Giger Link, however my drawings are about Phi, Dodecahedrons and Pentagrams, obviously not on the level of H.R. Giger, however we both show skulls and teeth ha ha!

Perhaps my drawings are more esoteric?

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...4649&mode=view
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Unread 01-29-2015, 06:55 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

So many quintiles and bi-quintiles in my my birth chart at least points to a career in Music, even Angles are quintile between Asc. and M.C. ha ha!

I will show my career in music, under being forced, if you like, you know i'm refreshingly open!

Link again to Quintile chart:-

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpb...f=2&t=2&t=1989

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Re: Confused about Pluto

Thanks for your input, Waybread. If I miss anything out of your post it is because I either don't know, or in the case of some of the internal stuff, can't know what is going on with this native.


Quote:
With Pluto smack on the ascendant and so close to the sun, however, I wonder of this was a difficult birth, and if the native had some life-threatening or at least highly troublesome events in his early childhood around the ages of 3 (progressed Pluto conjunct sun and 6.5 (solar arc Pluto.) In modern astrology, Pluto would rule the 4th house of early childhood conditioning, moreover.
I have no idea about the birth, and his mother is much too old to remember that now. The childhood was fine, just a normal kid by all accounts. Was very attached to his mother initially.

Quote:
But the native just seems like such a fighter and survivor, probably learning early in life that the best defense is a good offense. (Pluto/sun trine Mars, sextile Saturn.)
No, the native is very passive, not submissive, but not at all assertive or confrontational. Very quiet and softly spoken.

Quote:
I get the feeling of a lot of emotional pain in this person's life, with the hope that wisdom or learning will help to make sense of it all and to heal the way out of it. (Moon/Uranus/Jupiter square Venus/Neptune.) Women, too, might seem like more trouble than they're worth! (Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.)
No unusual emotional pain, the native doesn't express emotions publically at all really. I can't talk for the inner life, but the native expresses no desire for learning and wisdom though is interested in general knowledge game shows and the like however I'm not certain that is what you meant here.

No issues with women, had one wife, still married and have been together for almost 40 years. Does have all female siblings.

Quote:
That big old Cancer moon is just so strong, but conjunct Uranus and square Neptune and Venus, this man might feel that his rapidly moving emotional roller-coaster causes more pain that it is worth. Sometimes people with Neptune squaring the moon or other personal planets develop drinking or drug habits. The teetotalers either seem to need religion or a form of escapism. The moon conjunct Uranus can indicate some mental instability, such as a highly unpredictable temper. That Jupiter-moon in Cancer looks so loving, yet there is a flip side to it.
Again, can't speak for the inner life, but, externally, very steady emotionally. You can always be sure of his mood which is neither up nor down.

No substance abuse issues.


Quote:
This person comes across to others as extremely intense.
Quote:
(Sun-Pluto in the first conjunct ascendant. He identifies with his intelligence, and to come extent, with his ability to bend (I won't say persuade, which is more sociable) others to his views. (Mercury-Pluto orb is wide, but the sun is near their midpoint, so they kind of hang together. Mercury conjunct sun, sextile Saturn.) There is an enormous amount of energy behind this man's desire to project (enforce?) his personality onto others. (Sun trines Mars. Out-of-sign but no matter.) It doesn't help his family members that Virgo can get highly critical of others.
Values general knowledge and practical knowledge..

Doesn't enforce himself at all on things, in fact his lack of assertion does lead to some regrets. Is very critical.

Quote:
One bright spot for the intense sun is the sextile with Saturn conjunct IC. With Mercury sextile Saturn this could almost be someone with a love of old houses, family history-- or old astrology!
No interest in astrology or old things, does have an interest in the Western genre of film.

Quote:
With Venus ruling the MC and Venus domiciled in Libra, together with moon/Neptune/Jupiter-- I'd give this man some artistic talent.
No, he values pragmatism over flair. To use an example from something you mentioned earlier, if you asked him to build a house it would be warm, dry and be somewhere to live, but it wouldn't look anything more than the four walls and a roof it was.

Quote:
Konrad said we should be able to say something about the father. It's a little tricky with this chart. Saturn is technically the father in a night birth, but with the sun so close to the AC and the modern ruler of the 4th conjunct the AC-- it's tempting to go with a dysfunctional sun-Pluto. But I'll stick with Saturn, which looks like a good relationship.
Good relationship which got better towards the end, as far as I know some distance early on in life.

Again, thanks for your opinions. Feel free to go further into it. As I said, blind reading is unnatural both in its application and its difficulty, so I respect your act in doing it publically.
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JUPITERASC (01-29-2015)
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Unread 01-29-2015, 12:45 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Hi JupiterAsc, and Waybread,
I'm glad to see this is less heated now, perhaps you can work together,
i don't like my chart being noticed too much,
i am a God investigator and irrelevant, no one can agree on that!


In regards to Pluto,
i would have to find a chart that has a M.C. conjunct Pluto and Regulus, as i have,

either by paran or Projected,

because Regulus actually sits on the Ecliptic, so both processes will show the same!



Although i went to good schools, since then i have always followed mundane electional astrology, therefore i'm rusty with birth charts!
However Prince, musician, has Regulus/Pluto M.C aligned, however some of his music has been taboo sexual:-
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Prince
I also was in music, but not to the same success as Prince obviously, but my way was though my many quintiles, i am not forward in sexual matters!!!

Hi Konrad, i have only one child, my daughter!

Hi Waybread,

many obsessive people have made my life a misery, especially when i only try to help them!


I didn't have a good relationship with my father, he was a top flight mason, not all in esoteric are bad and this also applies to masons, however at a young age i was investigating Pythagoras, golden ratio etc, JupiterAsc will show meaning of that and Grand Quintiles, please note if i die tomorrow, i don't lie!

My mother is a Scorpio, i love her to bits, however she is 87, born on 5th November 1927, although i don't have time, poor dear she suffers from dementia, as many of us will at her age, so Pluto influence can come out as emotianal blackmall.

However as you have read, i have severe dis-ablement, but look after her and myself!

I could talk about my Daughter, however i'm not keen to do so, obviously by what happened in Paris recently, i write about secret societies as JupiterAsc knows, you don't really want to say too much about yourself if you do that with a Pluto M.C. ha ha!

Hi WayBread, thank you for interpretation, it was very true.

Can you do me a favour, bring up a chart for myself, that only shows Quintiles, Bi-Quintiles and Conjunctions, using planets, Ceres, Vesta, Juno, Pallas and Chiron....it isn't a crime to use Mean Node, so change to Mean Node as a point over True mode for the Moon.

The first completed Grand Quintile is completed by the Moon, by midpoints, however i nearly have another one, therefore look to the midpoint between, Look at degrees of the Sun and Moon, doesn't that make the mid-point the angles???

It explains my career in Music before i was disabled and i travelled across Europe, however as far as Pluto being my M.C. we must look at other factors, conjunct Regulus, but also being midpoint of Quintile cluster, energy comes up from Pallas on Nadir, to Pluto/Regulus M.C. i do suffer from Truama from Obsessive influences, however this isn't a normal Pluto M.C., so other factors to make it more influencial must be observed!
Being a recent discovery, there is no consensus regarding dwarf planet pluto
although
opinon regarding the possible 'influence' is plentiful
but unfortunately
as yet untested over a longer period of time than approximately 80 years

in contrast, for thousands of years, astrologers of ancient times have delineated fixed stars such as REGULUS

If REGULUS is culminating this indicates Honor, preferment, good fortune,
high office under Government, military success. [Robson*, p.196.]

HOWEVER Monk
keep in mind
this is qualified by:

REGULUS with Sun = Power, authority, great influence over friends, honor and riches,
but violence, trouble and ultimate disgrace and ruin, sickness, fevers
benefits seldom last. [Robson*, p.196.]


THE FIXED STARS IN NATAL ASTROLOGY
http://constellationsofwords.com/cat...atalrobson.htm

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Unread 01-29-2015, 01:08 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

For what it's worth, I have noted that planets on the angles which have stars conjoined tend to colour the manifestations of the star involved. With Jupiter, Mercury and the Moon there, Mars in aversion and cadent I would expect less pronounced Martial traits in Monk's life. This sort of thing is definitely a good research project, one for the future as far as I personally am concerned. I'm not too fond of Ecliptial degree conjunctions of stars though unless the star is on the Ecliptic, so even if I saw some use in Pluto, I doubt I would use it with stars as it is so far from the Ecliptic a lot of the time. In Monk's case, Pluto is over 10 degrees north of the Ecliptic, the Moon around 4 south of it, so even she I wouldn't consider as modifying Regulus too much. Mercury and Jupiter though, for sure. In fact, looking at that conjunction in Porpyhrius Magus, if it wasn't for both being under the beams, it would have been a very powerful sign in a nativity.
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
For what it's worth, I have noted that planets on the angles which have stars conjoined tend to colour the manifestations of the star involved.
With Jupiter, Mercury and the Moon there, Mars in aversion and cadent I would expect less pronounced Martial traits in Monk's life.

This sort of thing is definitely a good research project, one for the future as far as I personally am concerned.

I'm not too fond of Ecliptial degree conjunctions of stars though
unless the star is on the Ecliptic,
so even if I saw some use in Pluto, I doubt I would use it with stars as it is so far from the Ecliptic a lot of the time.


In Monk's case, Pluto is over 10 degrees north of the Ecliptic, the Moon around 4 south of it,
so even she I wouldn't consider as modifying Regulus too much.

Mercury and Jupiter though, for sure.
In fact, looking at that conjunction in Porpyhrius Magus, if it wasn't for both being under the beams,
it would have been a very powerful sign in a nativity.
I mostly use Porphyrius Magus as well as DELPHIC ORACLE

According to:
THE FIXED STARS IN NATAL ASTROLOGY
http://constellationsofwords.com/cat...atalrobson.htm

QUOTE

'.....The nearer a star may be to the ecliptic the greater is its power,
and in the northern hemisphere a star with north declination is more powerful than one with south
the reverse holding good in the southern hemisphere.

It has frequently been said that stars with great latitude cannot affect us
but it is very doubtful if this assumption is correct
and experience, particularly in the case of comets, seems to indicate
that bodies in all parts of the celestial sphere are capable of exerting an influence upon the earth and its inhabitants...'


QUOTE

'.....Nature of planet through which they operate:
As already pointed out
the fixed stars give strength and energy to the planets and modify their effects
but at the same time the nature of the planet exercises a strong controlling influence upon the result.

The greatest effect is obtained when the star and planet are both of the same nature
and in such cases the influence of the planet is raised to a vehement pitch
though at the same time the malefic effect of the star is diminished.....'




'....Thus if the planet Mars fall upon a star of its own nature its power is increased
BUT
if upon a star of the nature of Jupiter or Venus it is reduced and modified


while if upon one of the nature of Saturn it is greatly changed.

In other words if a planet falls upon a star of similar nature to its own it acquires intensity
while if upon one of contrary nature it becomes quiescent or distorted
and may give a kind of sodden or dull effect to the character......'
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Ok, thanks for that JupiterASC. I haven't seen it before.

I would disagree on two points: first, the comment on stars far from the Ecliptic. I don't think they do effect nativities. Sirius is a good example of this. Second, I don't see Mars conjoined a Martial star as somehow limiting Mars malefic tendencies, in fact I would see the opposite. I have a rather startling example here of Mars at the MC conjoined Antares and the native almost died at the hands of criminals and criminal activity when Mars became lord of the distributions. I also wouldn't see it as augmenting or reducingpower, but that's just me, planets conjoined stars on angles will be powerful anyway due to their position.
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Unread 01-29-2015, 06:26 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Thanks for your input, Waybread. If I miss anything out of your post it is because I either don't know, or in the case of some of the internal stuff, can't know what is going on with this native.


I have no idea about the birth, and his mother is much too old to remember that now. The childhood was fine, just a normal kid by all accounts. Was very attached to his mother initially.

No, the native is very passive, not submissive, but not at all assertive or confrontational. Very quiet and softly spoken.

No unusual emotional pain, the native doesn't express emotions publically at all really. I can't talk for the inner life, but the native expresses no desire for learning and wisdom though is interested in general knowledge game shows and the like however I'm not certain that is what you meant here.

No issues with women, had one wife, still married and have been together for almost 40 years. Does have all female siblings.

Again, can't speak for the inner life, but, externally, very steady emotionally. You can always be sure of his mood which is neither up nor down.

No substance abuse issues.


[COLOR=darkred][B]Values general knowledge and practical knowledge..

Doesn't enforce himself at all on things, in fact his lack of assertion does lead to some regrets. Is very critical.

No interest in astrology or old things, does have an interest in the Western genre of film.

No, he values pragmatism over flair. To use an example from something you mentioned earlier, if you asked him to build a house it would be warm, dry and be somewhere to live, but it wouldn't look anything more than the four walls and a roof it was.

Good relationship which got better towards the end, as far as I know some distance early on in life.

Again, thanks for your opinions. Feel free to go further into it. As I said, blind reading is unnatural both in its application and its difficulty, so I respect your act in doing it publically.
Thanks for the feedback, Konrad, but I feel like we're "the blind leading the blind" in a blind reading! You can't comment on this man's inner state, yet that is what modern astrology was designed to do best.

I won't try to back-pedal on mistakes, but I will say that your comments and mine on some points are not necessarily contradictory. Someone can be married to the same woman for 40 years, for example, because he's either found someone who is compatible or perhaps they share views about traditional marriage. This doesn't mean he feels comfortable in the presence of "liberated women" inclined to challenge his traditional way of thinking (Mercury sextile Saturn.)

I mentioned that Neptune square moon doesn't necessarily manifest as alcoholism-- spirituality or escapism (perhaps through film?) would be common alternatives. (I believe I posted earlier that I think Neptune is the modern ruler of film.)

It appears that I totally mistook the first house meaning, yet we also have Leo rising and a first house sun, so even if we blot out Pluto, how would you see these features correlating with a retiring personality? In traditional astrology, Mercury is angular and has a lot of essential dignity, although combust.

One thing that you see occasionally in modern astrology is someone with a chart that suggests a very strong or feisty personality: and if you put this to the native, s/he says either, "I used to have a horrible temper when I was young, but I had to learn to control it;" or else they deny the characterization, but then you learn that the suppressed energy either shows up as an illness related to the suppressed planet, or else the person tends to attract people who do personify the suppressed planet's negative qualities. The chart will normally "out" in some fashion.

I should mention that after I worked out the man's birth date, I went on-line to see whether anyone else had it, by way of getting some biographical sense of how such a chart might manifest. I found two people: one, a Scottish political leader (born later in the morning,) and the other, the rock musician Elvis Costello (no known birth time.) The politician's Wikipedia bio said nothing about his personal life. However, I learned from a New Yorker article that Costello indeed had an alcohol problem until he was able to give up drinking-- so planetary potentials can manifest differently over the life course.

(A clever astrologer could also have determined the birth location. Not me.)

One thing that is hard to read off a blind chart is the native's social context. If this man had been born in an upper middle class family in the US, it would have been expected that he would attend university after completing high school, as a matter of course, and been exposed to opportunities to develop his talents. But if we are looking at a working-class or poor family in a coal-mining town where higher education wasn't valued because it was seen as unobtainable (and even suspect,) then you could easily have an intelligent man with some artistic ability who was never able to use his mind beyond engaging in TV quiz shows, and whose artistic abilities (Venus domiciled in Libra, ruling the MC) were never encouraged or developed. In the third house, a Libra Venus might merely manifest as a soft speaking voice.

We can well imagine a 60-year old man, growing up in a non-demonstrative culture (like northern Germany or Britain!) where men were taught to control their feelings as part of what it meant to be masculine, and harshly ridiculed if they didn't. And maybe here is where we see a little bit of that Pluto showing through: like its modern sign Scorpio, Plutonian people can be secretive, and liking to show that they have their emotions in check: the "observer who is not observed."

I didn't suggest "flair," although this could be a trait of Leo rising.

If you know or knew this person well, Konrad-- do you suppose he really repressed the strong, vibrant, and dominating qualities that he had within him to express? Put differently, do you think he felt/feels disappointed in his life?

Once in a great while I have seen charts of hyper-Capricorns, who are just so cautious that they let life pass them by. Just possibly this man's life absolutely expressed the "keep a lid on it" potential of Pluto conjunct AC.

Thanks again for the feedback, Konrad. It is how I learn astrology.
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  #124  
Unread 01-29-2015, 07:30 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Ok, thanks for that JupiterASC. I haven't seen it before.

I would disagree on two points: first, the comment on stars far from the Ecliptic.
I don't think they do effect nativities.

Sirius is a good example of this.


Second, I don't see Mars conjoined a Martial star as somehow limiting Mars malefic tendencies, in fact I would see the opposite. I have a rather startling example here of Mars at the MC conjoined Antares and the native almost died at the hands of criminals and criminal activity when Mars became lord of the distributions. I also wouldn't see it as augmenting or reducingpower, but that's just me, planets conjoined stars on angles will be powerful anyway due to their position.

Monk may find your perspective of interest Konrad
since Monk has spent many years researching SIRIUS in particular
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  #125  
Unread 01-29-2015, 09:36 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Monk View Post
So many quintiles and bi-quintiles in my my birth chart at least points to a career in Music, even Angles are quintile between Asc. and M.C. ha ha!

I will show my career in music, under being forced, if you like, you know i'm refreshingly open!

Link again to Quintile chart:-

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpb...f=2&t=2&t=1989
Monk, would you like to start a new thread on quintiles? If so and I don't catch it, please PM me the link.

I think quintiles to chart angles have meanings, but I don't make the major chart patterns using points vs. actual planets. To me, a grand quintile would need planets (modern OK, including Chiron) in each of the 5 points.


If you go to Astrodienst www.astro.com and run your chart via its free charts pages, it will show quintiles in the aspectarian, and you can also do a 5th harmonic chart, if you wish. They also have options for inputting any of the asteroids and dwarf planets.
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Last edited by waybread; 01-29-2015 at 09:56 PM.
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