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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #51  
Unread 01-26-2015, 03:37 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpb...f=2&t=2&t=1989

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  #52  
Unread 01-26-2015, 04:36 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!


http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpb...f=2&t=2&t=1989
Thanks Monk
would be great if you would say what you think that the quintiles show
these quintiles involve the seven visible plane
ts solely?
or are 'the outers'/dwarf planet pluto involved?
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  #53  
Unread 01-26-2015, 04:42 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Hi Konrad,

Please note i'm being nice, but you have a few charts, and i'm looking for Pluto on an angle pretty tight for a birth chart, so charts that have Pluto on an angle within one and a half degree's.

Can we say you have one?

Please note i am known for research with tight orbs regarding fixed stars, and parans, that is traditional astrology and older than anything else!

However i'm only looking for tight orbs on angles for Pluto, for research thus looking for anyone that has this, unconnected to wide orbs!
Yes, we can say I have one.

Here is the chart anyway, in the Tropical zodiac and Placidus houses:



If you have any questions about it ask here or via PM. Same goes for any requests in making the image bigger.

As for Monk's chart, JupiterASC, I don't really have the time to delineate it, but I am very interested in his Mercury ruling Spirit while in the bounds of Saturn - always a good sign of one able for deep research, especially in this sort of subject.

Just to be clear, the offer of the charts earlier was not only limited to Monk.
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  #54  
Unread 01-26-2015, 04:54 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yes, we can say I have one.

Here is the chart anyway, in the Tropical zodiac and Placidus houses:




If you have any questions about it ask here or via PM. Same goes for any requests in making the image bigger.

As for Monk's chart, JupiterASC, I don't really have the time to delineate it,
but I am very interested in his Mercury ruling Spirit while in the bounds of Saturn
- always a good sign of one able for deep research, especially in this sort of subject.


Just to be clear, the offer of the charts earlier was not only limited to Monk.
Good observation Konrad, thanks for that
I wonder whether Monk has studied Hellenistic and/or traditional methods?
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  #55  
Unread 01-26-2015, 06:55 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Ok the posts are getting long , but I'm going to try to break down the Pluto argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, I challenge you to show me how the orb of the planet Saturn, when visible in the night sky, equals 5 degrees, or whatever other value you choose to put on it. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html Here is a quick-and-dirty backyard astronomy guide to calculating degrees from a given point in the heavens, used by "backyard" or amateur astronomers: http://oneminuteastronomer.com/860/measuring-sky/

Of course Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune (plus many asteroids) have "visible disks of light." Again, this is how they were actually discovered, not just theorized. However, they were discovered with the aid of telescopes. And we're not talking Hubble, here, either. Telescopes prior to the 20th century were not terribly sophisticated. If you own a beefy "backyard astronomy" telescope and camera, you, too, can observe Pluto; but the trick will be distinguishing it from the stars in its proximity. This article tells you how: http://www.spaceanswers.com/astronom...n-i-see-pluto/
1) Regarding the Light of planets:

a) Ok I think you are mistaking what i said about an "orb", with the medieval concept of orb as a degree of influence within the signs. But I agree it may be my fault, because it is a confusing subject.

The general term of orb, is the hellenic one, which is just the light around a planet (disk of light).

From hellenic perspective, for example, planets inside a water sign, are always in "aspect" with planets inside other water sign (trine), regardless if one is at the end, and the other at the beginning of said signs, the orb carries no influences.

The medieval astrologers invented the concept of "degree of influence within the orb", to try to establish a base for the aspect's strenght. But this is something that comes from the 9th century and so on, and isn't really used much.

b) The concept of an aspect, which is the purpose of having an "orb", and this is important so everyone should read, is this: Aspects unite Signs, not planets. This is the traditional interpretation of an aspect. Basicly, aspect comes from the word "aspectum", which means to observe. A planet in aspect thus gives a testimony of the planet he is beholding.

A planet in aspect with another planet, testifies, or gives opinion, about the planet it aspects. And it is the sign that modules the planets opinion regarding the other planet. And the medium in which such testimony is given, is by the "rays of light" the planets cast towards each other.

So in order for a planet to give a testimony regarding another planet, said planet must have an "argument" moduled by the sign. This is done through the essential dignities and debilities, and the reception among the planets.

If Pluto has NO essential dignities, thus pluto can't act accordingly to the sign it is placed in. Thus, aside from not having any light, it also forms no opinion.

For example a mars in Virgo and a Jupiter in Cancer are in negative reception towards each other, and in sextile aspect (they recieve each other through detriment and fall). So, doesn't matter how good the aspect is, they won't be helping each other.

THIS IS WHY, we don't consider fixed stars to cast aspects, and are only relevant through conjunction. Because fixed stars also can't be moduled by a sign, they don't rule any sign and have no essential dignities or debilities, thus their influence falls down only to their nature (benefic or malefic), and thus only influence the planet when they are extremely close to each other.

c) The point in argument regarding the light of the outer planets, falls down to an incompatibility with astrological system in general

It is mostly nit picking what to believe and what not.

As I showed above>

Aspects represent one thing (planets uniting signs). That is their use. A planet that has no sign, and no light, can't cast an aspect (I will further the topic on Pluto as ruler of nothing below).

Saying that outers indeed make aspects, "just because", is choosing what do use and what not to, without basing the decision on the logical reasoning behind astrology.

Aspect are not just mathematical degrees uniting the planets, they have a certain significance. The concept of the outers doing that, goes against that meaning.

-----

2) The concept of Pluto
:

And here is were the argument for Pluto can be broken down into why we consider it invalid.

a) The first thing we notice is how all, and I do mean all of pluto's attributes, belong to other planets in the first place. I'm going to name the most common ones. Lets analyze the association of pluto and what he represents:

sex, death, money, change, violence, revolution, etc.

Sex = Venus
Money = Jupiter
Change = Saturn
Violence = Mars
Death = Mars

The Venus being the natural ruler of sex is very well known, with its companion and opposite Mars being the representation of the sexual act. Jupiter as the great benefic, represents the concept of wealth, so money is something attributed to jupiter. Saturn, with its long cycles, and its "malefic" influence represents the change and stages we all go through life. Mars represents violence, war, anger and death.

So with all these attributes assigned to other planets, as natural rulerships, why do we need pluto?

The 7 hellenic lots, and what they do, is expand this concept. This is why each and every one of the parts is assigned to a specific planet.

b) The lack of essential dignities for pluto, as I said in point 1, means that pluto's nature can't be compared to that of the planets. Thus his nature can't be modulated for good or bad, and has to act solely through his natural attributes. But since he has no natural attributes (given the fact that they are all stolen from other planets), pluto's significance is meaningless.

c) The assignment of Pluto to Scorpio, aside from random, is imperfect because it goes against the natural essence of the table of dignities.

And this is not because of sign rulership or anything, but because of the triplicity system and the sect behind the signs.

Each planet rules a sign that belongs to a different sec: day and night.

Triplicity's divide themselves between day signs (fire and air) and night (water and earth). This is why the triplicities are ruled by specific planets, diurnal or nocturnal.

Lacking a sect (as either nocturnal or diurnal planet), can't also be assigned to the table of triplicities. Of course I understand modern astrology doesn't employ triplicity.

Yet triplicity and sect is one of the corner stones for astrology in general.

----------------------------

To sum up:

- Pluto doesn't fit with almost NONE of the astrological beliefs
- Each meaning pluto has can be assigned to another reason, established 2000 years ago

Of course, here the modern astrologer comes and claims:

"-But I don't believe in the triplicity system, or the concept of sect, or that aspects are because of signs. So I will use Pluito regardless."

Well, going by that, then we can question everything, then:

- why does the sun rules Leo?
- why are squares "bad" aspects and trines "good"?
- why is uranus malefic?
- why does venus represent love?
- why does the moon represent feelings?
- why is the 9th house, the one of higher learning?
- why is the 7th house the one of the spouse?

Why?

Modern astrology disregards a lot of astrological teachings, only for the sake of preference.

If one is to disregard a lot of this things, why not the rest? why keep some, and throw away the others?

I've actually said in many posts, what hurts the Pluto argument the most is the lack of reasoning on modern astrology.

I must say waybread, that by far, you are the most convincing and logical with the Pluto argument. I do give you that.

But the problem, at least for me, is that still the dissection of the astrological system ir order to make room for pluto, still lacks a logical perspective.

PS: I'm not trying to offend anyone with this post, just trying to put the argument together, and trying to show the reasoning behind the well established classical principles.

EDIT: just fixed a few things on the post, was pretty long and I missplaced some words/sentences.
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Last edited by Dirius; 01-26-2015 at 11:46 PM.
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  #56  
Unread 01-26-2015, 10:24 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Sight is not the only sense with which to experience the sky. Surely you are aware if it rains or snows through your sense of touch!


nevertheless
comparing dwarf planet pluto to rain or snow is misleading
dwarf planet pluto is far beyond 'your sense of touch'


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


The Greeks combined meteorology with astrology: see Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos for example.
The relationship between moon phases and tides was well known.
You know the expression "lunacy."


The moon visibly and obviously reflects the light of the sun
unlike dwarf planet pluto

there is no evidence that dwarf planet pluto has any effect on tides


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


Your mistrust of telescopes, however, really doesn't hold up.
Ancient and medieval astrologers used quadrants, astrolabes, sundials, water clocks, the antikythera mechanism, perapegmata, and armillary spheres.
They didn't restrict themselves to their eyeballs.
In fact, as soon as reliable ephemerides became available in ancient times, they used them instead of star-gazing to note planetary positions.

They would have had to rely on ephemerides in northern Europe, frankly, because the sky is overcast so much of the tme
.


It is incontrovertible that astrology began with observation of the skies
thousands of years ago
long before the invention of artificial aids to vision
such as for example, telescopes

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


I'll say here in a note I posted to Dirius that wiped out, that the modern outers do cast visible light.
Of course they do. They reflect the light of the sun just like the traditional planets do.


That's misleading
because
IF the outers reflected the light of the sun with the same level of magnitude that the seven traditional planets do
THEN
the outers would be as visible in the night skies as the seven traditional planets are

BUT

in contrast with the seven traditional planets
the outers are invisible in the night skies
SO
the outers were not 'discovered' until the invention of powerful artificial aids to vision such as telescopes


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


In fact, on a good night with some homework under your belt, you can see Uranus with the naked eye.
If you have a reasonably beefy telescope at home with a camera designed for night sky photos
(advertised in amateur astronomy magazines)
you can see Pluto.

This isn't about the Hubble telescope. Many of the asteroids were discovered in the 19th century,
when telescopes were primitive by modern standards. Galileo discovered the moons of Jupiter in the early 17th century.

It IS about the LOWELL OBSERVATORY


in fact
dwarf planet pluto is so faint
that unless
In 1894, businessman Percival Lowell had built the Lowell Observatory to study Mars.
and then in 1905, turned the telescope toward the search for the elusive Planet X
dwarf planet pluto would not have been found
it was only because
the telescope at the observatory was equipped with a camera
that would take two photographs of the sky on different days
that Clyde Tombaugh
using a device known as a blink compactor rapidly flipped back and forth between the two photographs
that meant
Stars and galaxies essentially remained unmoving in the images
but
anything closer could be visually identified by its motion across the sky.
AND it was only after Tombaugh spent approximately a week studying each pair of photographs
which contained over 150,000 stars
and sometimes nearly a million.
that finally on 18 February 1930
Clyde Tombaugh noticed movement across the field of a pair of images taken a month beforehand.

After studying the object to confirm it,
the staff of Lowell Observatory officially announced the discovery of a ninth planet on 13 March 1930


It's misleading to claim
that dwarf planet pluto is somehow easily visible to anyone from their backyard IF they have a telescope


dwarf pluto is invisble to unaided vision

AND
a fairly large telescope, at least 10 inches aperture is required
That 'reasonably beefy camera complete with camera' you mentioned
costs ten thousand dollars plus and that is when on sale
http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes...8198+11038.cfm


A very good chart of stars through which Pluto is passing is also required.
The best printed star atlases go down to 11th magnitude, which is not faint enough
http://astronomy.starrynight.com/

keep in mind that
light pollution
excludes backyards in all major cities and towns as places from which to even attempt to view dwarf planet pluto

furthermore

unless skies are remarkably clear
pluto remains invisible even if one has a telescope

the clearest skies are in the countryside
so
in order to view dwarf planet pluto then take time off work

or
maybe take a hike at the weekend
to a rural location with very clear skies
essential to pack a powerful telescope costing a minimum
$7000 at the sale price

and that's just the cost of the telescope

add the cost of accommodation away from home

and

if there are cloudy skies
then re-book your holiday
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  #57  
Unread 01-26-2015, 11:36 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Waybread,

You either don't get it or don't want to. It's fine, I'm not going to waste any more time repeating the same idea over and over. I find your misrepresentation of ideas during debate to be a turn-off, and it seems one ends up spending more time correcting "misunderstandings" of one's positions than working through them.

I hope for others reading that the idea of using a telescope to view an object contradicts a basic tenet of ancient astrology isn't too difficult to understand.
Oh, I get it perfectly well, Konrad. Your point is simple to understand. I just disagree with you. I wonder if you understand my points.

Your quarrel is really with the whole of modern astrology.

Konrad, are you willing to post your chart here, ideally using an Astrodienst chart (much easier to read)? Again, a modern astrologer probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in angular houses and much more interested in aspects-- and more.
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Last edited by waybread; 01-27-2015 at 12:00 AM.
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  #58  
Unread 01-26-2015, 11:58 PM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Obviously JupiterAsc,

I'm interested in research over Pluto, but as you know if i show research it is more than just a few charts, thus i'm interested in tight alignments.

My Birth chart is on link below but is about quintiles which isn't the subject here, but as the first to show a tight M.C/Pluto alignment about approx, one and a half degrees.

I'm not trying to create dispute but enlarge data pool, thus would like others to post tight Pluto alignments!

http://www.mauricefernandez.com/phpb...f=2&t=2&t=1989
Monk, I found your chart on that linked thread. At the risk of falling flat on my face, I would read your Pluto as influencing the following personality features. You can let me know if I am "on" or "off." I am doing this mainly to suggest to the trads how they could use Pluto in a horoscope interpretation.

I think you would like to be known as a deep and penetrating thinker. I see you as someone with the soul of the philosopher-- regardless of where your formal education took you. You don't like to settle for sloppy thinking, either. In your quest, you do suffer from a sense of personal limitations, yet you can use your innate sense of self discipline to make the progress you desire. As a "boomer" in the Pluto in Leo sextile Neptune generation, you have got a sense of self-transformation. (Pluto conjunct Mercury/MC, Pluto in the 9th ruled by the moon (conjunct Jupiter) in the 10th, Mercury strong in Virgo, Saturn in the first square Pluto.)
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  #59  
Unread 01-27-2015, 12:24 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Monk, I found your chart on that linked thread.
At the risk of falling flat on my face,
I would read your Pluto as influencing the following personality features.
You can let me know if I am "on" or "off."
I am doing this mainly to suggest to the trads how they could use Pluto in a horoscope interpretation.

I think you would like to be known as a deep and penetrating thinker.
Not much of 'a risk of falling flat on one's face'
That comment could apply to almost anyone on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I see you as someone with the soul of the philosopher regardless of where your formal education took you.
Another generalisation.
Everyone has their own philosophy, regardless of their formal education

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You don't like to settle for sloppy thinking, either.
another comment that could apply to almost anyone on this forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
In your quest, you do suffer from a sense of personal limitations,
yet you can use your innate sense of self discipline to make the progress you desire.
Few if any on this forum do NOT 'suffer from a sense of personal limitations'
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
As a "boomer" in the Pluto in Leo sextile Neptune generation, you have got a sense of self-transformation.
(Pluto conjunct Mercury/MC, Pluto in the 9th ruled by the moon (conjunct Jupiter)
in the 10th, Mercury strong in Virgo, Saturn in the first square Pluto.)

'you have got a sense of self-transformation'
is not exclusive to any particularly generation

many with completely different natal charts to Monk
may relate to these observations as well
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  #60  
Unread 01-27-2015, 01:19 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi JupiterAsc,

To be fair, i only posted my chart to show i had a tight alignment to Pluto on the M.C., thus a person that has the aspect is allowed to speak.

Obviously with Scorpio rising, i would have Scorpio features, picture below from the mid-seventies, sorry about the moustache, but they were in then ha ha!

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...7068&mode=view

I don't see anything wrong with Waybread's interpretation, it was how i was taught at the Faculty of Astrological Studies, link below, obviously only one school of many:-

http://www.astrology.org.uk/

I make no secret that i'm disabled, but i can see why waybread would think that!

I have studied Hellenistic and traditional methods, however i now specialise in fixed stars, parans and mundane electional astrology, however i could be wrong, it may be synchronicity, parans are the oldest of astrology techniques and can be followed back to at least the 13th Century BC

Everything in my life/soul that isn't needed gets burnt off!

Obviously as parans have tight orbs to angles, my research is geared to studying tight Pluto orbs, however i think i will start a new thread regarding planets tight on angles when i can get to it!

I find it strange that Vesta hasn't been mentioned in traditional astrology, for it must have been visible to the ancients when there wasn't any light pollution, it is only 326 miles in mean radius, but under some conditions is visible to the naked eye, link below please scroll down to "Visibility":-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
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  #61  
Unread 01-27-2015, 03:53 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

It is highly likely that Waybread knew my "Personal Limitations"= disablement, as i don't make a secret of it, as listed below, isn't it refreshing that Pluto involved in secrets is so open?

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...7174&mode=view

However i agree how she saw those limitations by astrology!

A forum is to love, but debate, i like both Waybread and JupiterAsc, but i can disagree, it doesn't stop the friendship!

Obviously i will debate on the energy of evil with Waybread in the future, however she knows i have been witness to extreme paranormal experiences, it may cloud my judgement, but at least i was there as a researcher at location and i don't lie about personal experience!

Too many hitting each other on the head on this thread for me to continue, last post!
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  #62  
Unread 01-27-2015, 04:36 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Monk, I had no idea you had a disability from anything I've read previously from you. I've not read or interacted with such posts from you. Ideally the chart itself indicates to the astrologer the level or direction through which to communicate with the native.

My sense of your Saturn in the first is that it can well bring a sense of limitation or "something wrong" with the body, regarding those systems (bones, for example) that Saturn rules. But it can also operate at a more intuitive, even spiritual level-- which has to do with how the native feels about himself. My sense, with your Saturn square Pluto, is that your body has been a source of limitation or disappointment to you; yet in its own way, Saturn keeps goading you to think more deeply, less superficially, to strip away any pretense that obscures the truths that you have within you to understand. Maybe if you had been more able-bodied, you wouldn't have felt the desire to probe so deeply into life's mysteries.

And one thing that all of this foofaraw about naked-eye astronomy has obfuscated is how modern astrology, ideally, deals with the inner person.
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  #63  
Unread 01-27-2015, 05:15 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Dirius, re: your recent post-- I have to say that your apparent efforts to change this thread into an all-out critique of modern astrology, using the pretext of Pluto, is a hijack. If people do not want to use Pluto in their own practice, all well and good; but then this thread is about understanding Pluto in the chart for people who do use it and think they have some grasp of how it operates.

Again, modern astrology does not constrain itself with the same rules as traditional astrology, any more than my children feel necessarily constrained with the rules by which their great-grandparents lived. To traditional astrologers on this thread: get over it.

If you don't want to practice modern astrology or use modern outers in your practice, then don't use them. Why should you? But your efforts to persuade (browbeat?) others to your camp with some kind-of astronomical "evidence" is not convincing. For one thing, modern astrology focuses more on the inner person than on planetary magnitudes. Our rules are somewhat different. Please respect that difference. Our aspects go by degree, not by sign or house.

So I can tell you, as an amateur modern western astrologer, what orbs I use and why. These are not related to invisible "disks of light" but to the impact (or not) of an aspect (or conjunction) on the person's life. However, modern western astrologers do not entirely agree on whether orbs need to be narrow or whether wider orbs should be used. It is putting the cart before the horse to insist on some arbitrary rules based upon what's "up in the sky" without really probing into what is going on with the person's life. Again, sometimes you have to synthesize more information: two planets that seem out-of-orb may actually be connected through a midpoint, minor aspect (might be a quintile, septile, or novile,) or parallel.

I don't practice traditional astrology, but I've read enough about it, both via recent texts and Hellenistic originals in translation, to have some sense of how it works. Again, modern astrology doesn't use most of the essential dignities. It's a different system. So there is no point in telling modern astrologers that we need to look up tables of essential dignities. I am familiar with them. I might use them in horary, but certainly not for a natal chart interpretation.

Frankly, I would love (on some other thread, not this thread on Pluto) for someone to explain the logical origin of the ancient table of essential dignities. Nobody knows where the Babylonian or Egyptian systems even came from, or why these micro-divisions of signs, which are invisible in the sky and shed no light whatsoever, should mean anything. The faces were the old Egyptian decans, which were highly significant in their star-calendars, yet these got utterly lost in a streamlined 10-degree system.

Deborah Houlding has an interesting article on the history of the terms: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html

Please stop trying to convert people like myself. How would you feel if I launched a frontal assault on traditional astrology? It would be easy enough to do so. Again, this is a thread about Pluto in the horoscope, not an opportunity for a "teaching moment" on essential dignities. (Which, by the way, was my insight as to why purist traditionalists can't use Pluto.)

Your "concept of Pluto" does not grasp Pluto in the horoscope. Yes, there is schlock modern astrology about Pluto, just as there was schlock traditional astrology. What you have presented is a classic straw man. I do recommend to you Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto; and Robert Hand, Planets in Transit and Planets in Youth.

What your "concepts of Pluto" demonstrate to me is that you have yet to gain a working understanding of Pluto in the horoscope--as reflected in human personalities and lives.

Would you like me to spell these out for you?
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  #64  
Unread 01-27-2015, 05:15 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by HYS View Post
I didn't say few thousand. Modern pace of acquiring knowledge is multiple times faster then in ancient times .. I don't dismiss traditional astrology at all, but ignoring new inventions is not the way to go for my MC. Clearly there is more then the old system knew, why leaving it out?
Yeah, the approach 'this is how we've done it for the last 5000 years, so this is how we are going to do it for the next 5000 years too' doesn't work for me either.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 05:24 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

I think you would like to be known as a deep and penetrating thinker. I see you as someone with the soul of the philosopher-- regardless of where your formal education took you. You don't like to settle for sloppy thinking, either. In your quest, you do suffer from a sense of personal limitations, yet you can use your innate sense of self discipline to make the progress you desire. As a "boomer" in the Pluto in Leo sextile Neptune generation, you have got a sense of self-transformation. (Pluto conjunct Mercury/MC, Pluto in the 9th ruled by the moon (conjunct Jupiter) in the 10th, Mercury strong in Virgo, Saturn in the first square Pluto.)
This isn't an in-depth delineation, which is fair, as that's difficult to do both on the fly and over the Internet. Such is the nature of forums.

But what are you seeing that can only be discerned by delineating Pluto? Deep and penetrating thought, philosophy can be seen by Merc exalted conjunct the MC and Jupiter, backed up by Sun in rulership in 9.

As for the sense of personal limitation, JupiterASC is correct that many, many people have that. I'll add that a peregrine Saturn in the first house could certainly lead to a conclusion like this as well.

'Self-transformation' is - every planet ever? One of the things we can discern by astrological means, or that we attempt to discern, is change, either by circumstance, or by self-direction. Is self-transformation, however you define it, exclusive to those born with Pluto in Leo, or only under the Neptune-Pluto sextile that took place during much of Pluto's stay in Leo? Is there some specific meaning to the term that I am not understanding?

I don't mean to dismiss what you say. It's just I can't see anything in it that requires outer planets to explain.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 05:25 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by Monk View Post
It is highly likely that Waybread knew my "Personal Limitations"= disablement, as i don't make a secret of it, as listed below, isn't it refreshing that Pluto involved in secrets is so open?

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...7174&mode=view

However i agree how she saw those limitations by astrology!

A forum is to love, but debate, i like both Waybread and JupiterAsc, but i can disagree, it doesn't stop the friendship!

Obviously i will debate on the energy of evil with Waybread in the future, however she knows i have been witness to extreme paranormal experiences, it may cloud my judgement, but at least i was there as a researcher at location and i don't lie about personal experience!

Too many hitting each other on the head on this thread for me to continue, last post!
It's an interesting thread, for sure. And I think the reason why it is getting a little heated is because the more recently discovered planets point at the astrologer's sore spot. Both the modern astrologer and the traditional astrologer don't actually know why astrology works. If they knew, they would have no problem dealing with those newly discovered objects. The new discoveries force the astrologers to rethink their models.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 05:38 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post


What your "concepts of Pluto" demonstrate to me is that you have yet to gain a working understanding of Pluto in the horoscope--as reflected in human personalities and lives.

Would you like me to spell these out for you?
I'd like you to spell it out. No snark intended at all. This, I think, is the thing we've been going round and round about, and also it's the concern of the OP - what to do with Pluto?

I studied modern psychological astrology for twenty years, as that was all that was on offer back when I learned, so I do have some famiiarity with the subject. I found it dissatisfying for a number of reasons, most of them philosophical. The incredibly nebulous 'definitions' given to the outer planets were part of that, and I don't see that that has changed much in the past twenty years or so. If anything, it seems to have got even fuzzier.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 06:12 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

For anyone who needs a primer on Pluto in the natal horoscope, here is my synthesis: other sources may vary.

First, Pluto often operates as a planet of the subconscious, sort of like the moon. We can talk about the moon, but fundamentally our emotional nature is different than the domain of words and intellect (Mercury.) Mercury can talk all around the moon, but it doesn't operate in the domain of deep-seated feelings. So we cannot draw a precise verbal, mental bead on a planet like Pluto that operates more on the level of a primal scream.

I like some of the early books by Steven Forrest, in which he explains planets as symbolising two personalities: the teacher and the trickster.

As teacher, Pluto can be a powerful stand for self-transformation. This is the energy of the phoenix, the survivor, the catharsis in a Greek tragedy, the poem Invictus, the rugby player at the bottom of the scrum, or circular time in which death is followed by resurrection or new life. Pluto can test us to the limits of endurance, but when we have no escape-pod, we learn that all along we were far stronger than we knew. If Pluto strips away our innocence, it also unmasks us, and strips away our pretenses, and our shallow goals.

I don't follow the notion that the modern outers are "higher octaves" of traditional planets, but for what it's worth, Mars rules our innate aggression and assertiveness; as well as people like warriors and athletes. Mars is to warfare as Pluto is to holocausts or Hiroshima. One might counter someone else's aggressive Mars with a bigger, stronger Mars; but Pluto (like death) carries with it the certainty of inevitability.

Saturn rules old age and decay. Pluto is about the energy of old-into-new, death into rebirth, the bottoming-out despair into new options.

Pluto deals with power-relations. Not Martial, "Agree with me, or I'll bash your head in" talk, but high-stakes jockeying for power; and the type of alpha male who ages into the immoveable object. Plutonian people often see life as a zero-sum game, in which "A's" win necessarily indicates "B's" loss. As trickster, Pluto becomes the ruthless bully or victim of the ruthless bully; the underworld figure, or the victim of the underworld figure.

(If we suppress Pluto, he tends to show up as other people who embody his negative traits.)

Pluto carries with it a much stronger sense of fate or destiny than the traditional inner planets.

If we consider the Roman god Pluto as ruler of the underworld and inevitability of death, Pluto carries some of these qualities. Mars might fight passionately for what it wants, but Pluto must have it. Wanting to hide from public view (metaphorically going underground) is a feature of hard Pluto transits.

When we find Pluto in association with Jupiter or the 9th house, the person needs to dig deeply for the truth that lies beneath superficial materiality.

The association of Pluto with wealth is not with wealth per se, but riches that come from under the earth's surface, such as minerals.

The association of Venus with sexuality has to do with its pleasurable and affectionate, romantic nature. Mars is more the go-getter principle. To the extent that Pluto is involved in sexuality, it is more in its attunement to life's profound mysteries. Jupiter teaches faith and optimism: Pluto says, "Your house was bombed and your family is now dead. You will never see them again. Yet you are stronger than you know."

I am traveling tonight and away from the books that might have enabled me to structure this post better-- but then, Pluto laughs at our ephemeral structures.

In dwarf planet Pluto's outer realm of the dark solar system, our little structures and logic do not mean very much. Pluto asks, "Who are you, really, when all that superficiality is stripped away?"
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Unread 01-27-2015, 06:51 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Hi Waybread,

I will only come back for humour, please note i'm stronger than i look Ha Ha!

You are a bad girl, you will give me nightmares regarding H.R. Giger ha ha!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Nyg03z0pQ

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Unread 01-27-2015, 07:02 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Actually the reason I'm posting this is because of the OP's original post:

Quote:
I am very confused about Pluto after reading the following... and what I can't understand or grasp is why Pluto was assigned as ruler of Scorpio? Obviously in Greek myth he is known as God of the Underworld and is dark and destructive in nature like Scorpio, but what appears to be misleading for me is that many scientists have debated over whether or not Pluto is even a planet, and from my understanding, a decision was actually cast that Pluto is not in fact a planet as there are other objects that are known to be bigger that have also been discovered.
So everything I say about pluto not being the ruler of Scorpio, and the proof it carries, fits perfectly for the post. The OP herself casts doubts about why Pluto would supposedly rule scorpio. I'm merely answering her the truth> it doesn't, and there is no explanation to why he should.

And with my posts I'm merely trying to explain to her, why Pluto doesn't rule scorpio, since this is the original argument.


MissScorpio: "Why does pluto supposedly rule Scorpio?"

Dirius: "It was a random asignment, for no reason. Here, you have 30 reasons to why pluto doesn't fit into astrology, and thus, doesn't rule scorpio."

I'm not saying you shouldn't use pluto. I never actually said that.

I said that pluto, according to traditional astrology, is meaningless. And this point is directed to the op. If I give logical proof of it, is to further reinforce my statement of pluto for the OP's sake. It wasn't me the one who casted the doubts.

PS: seriously, can you guys stop doing that?

every time a thread like this is created, and we post the polarizing views, at some point the modern side stops debating, says they like their method, and play the victim card of "OMG YOU ATTACK MY VIEWS!"

We are not attacking your views. We are explaining ours. I'm sorry that our views regard a concept of yours as an inexsistant thing, but that is what it is to us. Just like to you, triplicity's are inexistant.

If I use words like "meaningless" or "irrelevant", I say it in the traditional perspective (and I think, or at least tried, to made that clear). The reason I use those words...its because in all honesty, that is what pluto means in tradition. And I apologise, but those are the most polite words to describe pluto in the classical scene.

If you don not wish to have a debate, then stop posting please. But don't come playing the victim. No one is attacking you.

Op made a question. We answered. She posted about doubts of Pluto ruling Scorpio. Saying Mars rules scorpio, is actually a fair thing to say. If we then give proof of that, what is wrong with that?

The purpose of the forum is to learn and debate. This is actually called the "research and development" section.


PS2: Oh and I would gladly explain the concept of face and term, if you want on another post, or this one. your choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, re: your recent post-- I have to say that your apparent efforts to change this thread into an all-out critique of modern astrology, using the pretext of Pluto, is a hijack. If people do not want to use Pluto in their own practice, all well and good; but then this thread is about understanding Pluto in the chart for people who do use it and think they have some grasp of how it operates.

Again, modern astrology does not constrain itself with the same rules as traditional astrology, any more than my children feel necessarily constrained with the rules by which their great-grandparents lived. To traditional astrologers on this thread: get over it.

If you don't want to practice modern astrology or use modern outers in your practice, then don't use them. Why should you? But your efforts to persuade (browbeat?) others to your camp with some kind-of astronomical "evidence" is not convincing. For one thing, modern astrology focuses more on the inner person than on planetary magnitudes. Our rules are somewhat different. Please respect that difference. Our aspects go by degree, not by sign or house.

So I can tell you, as an amateur modern western astrologer, what orbs I use and why. These are not related to invisible "disks of light" but to the impact (or not) of an aspect (or conjunction) on the person's life. However, modern western astrologers do not entirely agree on whether orbs need to be narrow or whether wider orbs should be used. It is putting the cart before the horse to insist on some arbitrary rules based upon what's "up in the sky" without really probing into what is going on with the person's life. Again, sometimes you have to synthesize more information: two planets that seem out-of-orb may actually be connected through a midpoint, minor aspect (might be a quintile, septile, or novile,) or parallel.

I don't practice traditional astrology, but I've read enough about it, both via recent texts and Hellenistic originals in translation, to have some sense of how it works. Again, modern astrology doesn't use most of the essential dignities. It's a different system. So there is no point in telling modern astrologers that we need to look up tables of essential dignities. I am familiar with them. I might use them in horary, but certainly not for a natal chart interpretation.

Frankly, I would love (on some other thread, not this thread on Pluto) for someone to explain the logical origin of the ancient table of essential dignities. Nobody knows where the Babylonian or Egyptian systems even came from, or why these micro-divisions of signs, which are invisible in the sky and shed no light whatsoever, should mean anything. The faces were the old Egyptian decans, which were highly significant in their star-calendars, yet these got utterly lost in a streamlined 10-degree system.

Deborah Houlding has an interesting article on the history of the terms: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html

Please stop trying to convert people like myself. How would you feel if I launched a frontal assault on traditional astrology? It would be easy enough to do so. Again, this is a thread about Pluto in the horoscope, not an opportunity for a "teaching moment" on essential dignities. (Which, by the way, was my insight as to why purist traditionalists can't use Pluto.)

Your "concept of Pluto" does not grasp Pluto in the horoscope. Yes, there is schlock modern astrology about Pluto, just as there was schlock traditional astrology. What you have presented is a classic straw man. I do recommend to you Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto; and Robert Hand, Planets in Transit and Planets in Youth.

What your "concepts of Pluto" demonstrate to me is that you have yet to gain a working understanding of Pluto in the horoscope--as reflected in human personalities and lives.

Would you like me to spell these out for you?
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Unread 01-27-2015, 07:30 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Dirius, re: your recent post--
I have to say that your apparent efforts to change this thread into an all-out critique of modern astrology,
using the pretext of Pluto, is a hijack.
If people do not want to use Pluto in their own practice, all well and good;
but then this thread is about understanding Pluto in the chart for people who do use it and think they have some grasp of how it operates.

That's a misleading critique on Dirius
keep in mind that the OP clearly stated

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScorpio View Post

Hi everyone,

I am very confused about Pluto after reading the following...
and what I can't understand or grasp is why Pluto was assigned as ruler of Scorpio?
Obviously in Greek myth he is known as God of the Underworld
and is dark and destructive in nature like Scorpio,
but what appears to be misleading for me is that many scientists have debated over whether or not Pluto is even a planet,
and from my understanding, a decision was actually cast that Pluto is not in fact a planet as there are other objects that are known to be bigger that have also been discovered.

I also read the following:

Due to the extremely slow and eccentric orbit of Pluto, its effect on the individual personality has yet to be fully determined by astrologers.
It takes approximately 248 years to make one complete round throughout the zodiac and can spend between 15 and 20 years in a sign.
This is why those who argue against its use in delineating the personal horoscope, will say it is more generational than personal,
as literally millions of people are born during its transit through one sign.
We observe however, in practice, that Pluto does in fact have a tangible and long lasting impact on us.

So we know it has an impact on us, and I myself have experienced uncanny changes when Pluto conjunct my Venus, all typical , classical cases of transformation..
So I am bemused, as clearly Pluto's energy is integrating and formulating in some way , causing profound impacts on our life journeys..
But I also vastly aware that there must be unrecoginsed sources and bodies that we have not yet even discovered that are also unwittingly affecting our soul path.

So do we continue to believe in Pluto's force?
Personally, everything I read about from an astrological point of view on Pluto I relate to, notoriously so.

Clearly the OP invites elucidation
and is interested to discuss reasons why dwarf planet pluto is considered by modern astrologers to 'rule Scorpio'

obviously Dirius very apposite discussion of the traditional perspctive is helpful
and required in order to find potential answers to such a question

i.e.
the OP is clearly aware that
traditionally Mars rules Scorpio
so
far from 'hi-acking'
Dirius has provided useful comment in that regard

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Again, modern astrology does not constrain itself with the same rules as traditional astrology,
any more than my children feel necessarily constrained with the rules by which their great-grandparents lived.
To traditional astrologers on this thread: get over it.

If you don't want to practice modern astrology or use modern outers in your practice, then don't use them.
Why should you? But your efforts to persuade (browbeat?) others to your camp with some kind-of astronomical "evidence" is not convincing.

This is a discussion
Discussions include different opinions
furthermore
the OP has invited the astronomical "evidence" you deride

i.e.
the originator of this thread has clarified
that their interest includes a discussion that considers science/scientific thought
therefore all of Dirius posts are clearly very much on topic
so far as the OP is concerned

if you would prefer to focus on your own personal modern astrological opinion
to the exclusion of all traditional astrological opinion
then you have the option of commencing your own thread elsewhere on the forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScorpio View Post
Bunraku
- I think it is important to leave your ears open to science
- this is the issue, it's augmenting a blend of the two together as astrology is an empirical science.
Dirius has made useful comments that are clearly very much on-topic regardig various scientific aspects of this discussion
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Frankly, I would love
(on some other thread, not this thread on Pluto)
for someone to explain the logical origin of the ancient table of essential dignities.

Nobody knows where the Babylonian or Egyptian systems even came from, or why these micro-divisions of signs,
which are invisible in the sky and shed no light whatsoever, should mean anything.
The faces were the old Egyptian decans,
which were highly significant in their star-calendars, yet these got utterly lost in a streamlined 10-degree system.

Deborah Houlding has an interesting article on the history of the terms:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html
Nothing prevents you from commencing such a thread

by the way
THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE from an article by Russian Astrologer Albert Timashev, which he wrote in 2000:

"Many fundamental techniques and methods of ancient astrology are generally unknown to modern astrologers
because they were lost as a result of a scientific revolution of the 17th century
which claimed astrology was a pseudo-science.

One fundamental basis of astrology is the system of terms
- the division of the ecliptic into 60 unequal sectors by 5 sectors per each sign of the zodiac
- and the major Egyptian years directly following from terms"


SOURCE: http://astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en
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Unread 01-27-2015, 07:44 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
Hi Waybread,

I will only come back for humour, please note i'm stronger than i look Ha Ha!

You are a bad girl, you will give me nightmares regarding H.R. Giger ha ha!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Nyg03z0pQ
The link says that video 'does not exist' Monk

Here's more on Giger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83kJOl06ikk

by the way just last year H R Giger 'died from injuries sustained in a fall' http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5314408.html
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Unread 01-27-2015, 07:59 AM
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

Hi JupiterAsc,

To be fair, i only posted my chart to show i had a tight alignment to Pluto on the M.C.,
thus a person that has the aspect is allowed to speak.

Obviously with Scorpio rising, i would have Scorpio features, picture below from the mid-seventies,
sorry about the moustache, but they were in then ha ha!


http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...7068&mode=view
Hi Monk
'Scorpio features' is a broad generalisation

i.e.
It's possible your features are similar to those of others with an ascendant other than Scorpio

because

planets conjunct the ascendant have an influence on appearance
as do planets aspecting the ascendant by square, opposition, sextile and trine as well


Ron Bippus 40 years of research on Physical appearance indicatiors
may be of interest to you as well
http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post

I don't see anything wrong with Waybread's interpretation,
it was how i was taught at the Faculty of Astrological Studies, link below, obviously only one school of many:-


http://www.astrology.org.uk/

I make no secret that i'm disabled, but i can see why waybread would think that!

I have studied Hellenistic and traditional methods,
however i now specialise in fixed stars, parans and mundane electional astrology,
however i could be wrong, it may be synchronicity, parans are the oldest of astrology techniques
and can be followed back to at least the 13th Century BC

Everything in my life/soul that isn't needed gets burnt off!

Obviously as parans have tight orbs to angles,
my research is geared to studying tight Pluto orbs,
however i think i will start a new thread regarding planets tight on angles when i can get to it!

I find it strange that Vesta hasn't been mentioned in traditional astrology,
for it must have been visible to the ancients when there wasn't any light pollution,
it is only 326 miles in mean radius,
but under some conditions is visible to the naked eye, link below please scroll down to "Visibility":-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
Being 'visible to the naked eye only under some conditions'
is clearly the reason Vesta was not noticed even in modern times until 1807

Obviously, poweful telescopes with cameras attached
make the finding of asteroids and dwarf planets childsplay
and as an astronomer
you would be aware of that

HOWEVER

that does not mean these objects were clearly visible in night skies around the world at all times
as were fixed stars, Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 01-27-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 08:14 AM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Re: Confused about Pluto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
It is highly likely that Waybread knew my "Personal Limitations"= disablement, as i don't make a secret of it, as listed below, isn't it refreshing that Pluto involved in secrets is so open?

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/...7174&mode=view

However i agree how she saw those limitations by astrology!

A forum is to love, but debate, i like both Waybread and JupiterAsc, but i can disagree, it doesn't stop the friendship!

Obviously i will debate on the energy of evil with Waybread in the future, however she knows i have been witness to extreme paranormal experiences, it may cloud my judgement, but at least i was there as a researcher at location and i don't lie about personal experience!

Too many hitting each other on the head on this thread for me to continue, last post!
Monk,

when did you begin to be affected by your illness, and when was it diagnosed? I ask because charts such as yours (Moon culminating, Sun in 10th whole-sign yet retreating from an the angle) often prove difficult for me to identify the Hyleg and those dates would help my own research.
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