Indications of Homosexuality

wintersprite1

Premium Member
astrologer50 said:
Sorry i dont buy this ALL 7th house stuff, cos its 8th house of sex, conception, orientation. I've seen few with uranus their, but again uranus can go years without sex (say with frigid wife) then when it gets sex again, becomes insatiable for a while. Could also swings both ways....


What RA was suggesting makes great sense. The 7th house portrays and describes our partners. As for the 8th house as rulership over sex, that is just a modern interpretation with no real basis except as a way to tie in Pluto to the eighth. The eighth house has to do with anguish and fears, death and decay, and of course other's resources. I will agree there is 8th house sex... the not very good for you kind that changes you forever... just as there is 3rd house sex, that is very mentally inclined and so on through the houses. But sex is the domain of the 5th house. It is proven over and over historically with horary questions and results. The 8th always brings some sort of obsessive anguish or a loss.

TK
 

Natasha

Well-known member
Over here in Oz many get all PC about this kind of question. But I would like to approach it without getting locked into the PC implications and from the more technical point of view.
From my experiance I have noticed that some gay men (whose charts I have seen) have Sun Neptune aspects, sometimes Venus in the 12th and sometimes Mars in a watery sign like Pisces.
I definately dont think that all people are potentailly gay or straight or bi. We actually dont know as we cant get any evidence with the knowledge we have today but I feel inclined to beleive that we come in having predicided on a soul level what our sexuality will be for this incarnation.
The Sun Neptune aspect in the charts of gay men seems to show some image of the masculine parent being absent on some level.
Venus in the 12th especially if you see it repeated in familial charts (which I have seen) seems to sometimes indicate that a significant female in the family archytypically accessed the Venus principal and somehow pushed down other family members from accessing their Venusian principal.
Mars in a watery sign of a guys chart can sometimes show some ambivilance in putting that masculine energy out there in his societial expected manner. He will still access it tho and as he gets older he will find power within it.

They do say we decide our time of birth to give us the personality images for what we what to do. This is an intersting subject when we put aside political correctness and view the actual images. Corresspondinly one may also ponder the astrologcal significators of other material personality traits in the same way eg someone who rises to power in the corporate world or a great scientic mind etc etc
 

waybread

Well-known member
Natasha, I think the evidence you have given would actually cover a large swath of the human population. If we throw in all major possible sun-Neptune aspects (squares, trines, conjunctions, oppositions, what have you) and give the sun a decent orb, plus 1/12 of the male population with Venus in the 12, plus another 1/4 with Mars in a water sign, this is more people than the stats generally indicate as the gay population in places like the US where homosexuality is increasingly accepted.

Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio, a water sign, in which it should be very strong.

I increasingly think that sexual orientation is one of those attributes that astrology just can't detect. Astrology cannot tell what is someone's skin or eye colour, religion at birth, mother tongue, and socio-economic class. I think gay/straight is comparable.
 

Natasha

Well-known member
waybread said:
Natasha, I think the evidence you have given would actually cover a large swath of the human population. If we throw in all major possible sun-Neptune aspects (squares, trines, conjunctions, oppositions, what have you) and give the sun a decent orb, plus 1/12 of the male population with Venus in the 12, plus another 1/4 with Mars in a water sign, this is more people than the stats generally indicate as the gay population in places like the US where homosexuality is increasingly accepted.

Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio, a water sign, in which it should be very strong.

I increasingly think that sexual orientation is one of those attributes that astrology just can't detect. Astrology cannot tell what is someone's skin or eye colour, religion at birth, mother tongue, and socio-economic class. I think gay/straight is comparable.
Good points. This occured to me also whilst I was completing my post. Perhaps how the person feels or experiances their sexual orientation and experiances in erotic intimate relationship are more likely to be reflected within the chart than their actual sexual orientation.
 

The_Sundance_Kid

Well-known member
lillyjgc said:
Looking at a natal chart, we might be able to see that a person could be inclined to be, say, opinionated, but we can't see *what opinions* he will hold.Same with gender preference-we might be able to tell if a person is very interested in sex, but not what kind.:)

Real astrology focusses on the whole person.A chart is an integrated unit-you can't just take out an aspect and claim it means any one thing-because in isolation of the other relationships it will tell you nothing meaningful.
Lillyjgc

I just wanted to say I agree with this as far as astrology goes. But I think one can deduce a little more if one makes the jump from astrology into real life. For instance I think Capricorn is often said to show established institutions and social status and order. Aquarius is on the fringe of this. In the 1800s the established institutions were on the whole liberal (in the classical sense) and conservative. Now they are much more socially and opportunity orientated, not really left or right wing in the traditional sense. So the astrological Capricorn has not changed, but how we apply it has. I think Waybread came up with a similar idea regarding the Venus square Uranus thing. When you apply that to the 1770s the odd thing was same-sex relationships. But it isn't today. Today we still think that unreliability, infidelity and deceit are negative values so we might apply the aspects with a different interpretation. Its all about the application.

So if I saw a chart which showed for instance a highly opinionated individual, I might make the non-astrological jump in application and associate the opinions to what the current climate of opinions are, depending on whether the chart shows an inclination to the current climate. For instance in an 11th house orientated chart I might think these opinions are very popular among large swathes of interest groups. But in the 2nd house I might think these opinions are rather unusual and highly personal.

These non-astrological jumps and applications are the ethically contentious part of astrology, and you mentioned them in your post and I mentioned them in my post above. Should we make them at all? That discussion has barely begun :)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Astrologer4U said:
@Sundance Kid

Post #45 was a great Post. All that you said was humbley and respectfully stated. Mercury is retrograde and that coupled with negative ego and personal feelings, is probably what is getting you misunderstood by some. However, I understand you and appreciate your honesty.

@EJ53 I apreaciate your position in post #47


Now, I wish to try my best to make some things very clear as I am sure it most likely will not work. I keep hearing people saying that the entire natal chart of an individual should be taken into consideration when researching so called indicators. In the thread I started "The chart of a gay man" The full chart of that individual was taken into consideration. His child hood was talked about as well as his mother, siblings and so forth. However, people who wish to take things personally and wish to muscle other Astrologers into believing that looking at a gay mans chart for gay indicators is a waste of time, they wish to harass Astrologers for doing such. I don't think those individuals will ever be objective about looking at a chart to study such a case because they are to busy feeling subjective.


I do not believe that anyone is born gay, as I have said many times in this thread and in other threads...

I believe that gay, homosexual and bisexual is a subconscious choice based on the Natal chart indicating possible leanings towards, coupled with enviromental issues. I do agree that two people can be born at the same time in the same place and one can be gay, yet the other is not gay. This woud be due to that fact that they each have different enviromental backgrounds.


I have twin cousins for example, one is a boy and the other is a girl. The now woman is gay and the man is not gay. However the girl didn't start practicing the gay lifestyle until after several dissapointments from men. I know for a fact she will never date a guy again because she is still with the woman she came out with over 7 years ago and she is very much so in love with the woman. I wrote about this somewhere in this site but I will write it again, my cousin felt neglected and rejected by her mother who showed more attention towards her older sister. Funny thing now is, the woman who my cousin has been with for the past 7 years, has the same birthday as my cousins mother, that is not a coincidene to me. Although my cousins are twins, they are biological twins, not identical nor same sex. The female twin must have experienced her Moon sign differently from her male twin.

Slightly off topic but still pertaining to:
I used to be a preschool teacher working at a non profit agency. I had access to birth certificates and I observed the children for a while, then I would go a do their charts. I did the charts of twins, one a boy and the other a girl. I will post those charts for you all to see at a later date. In the charts, the children have some slight differences which I will wait to show you all. However, I will say this one part now, the girl is agressive passive and the boy is passive agressive. This is also why I said somewhere, maybe in this thread, that some leaning gay indicators are general but some are different in comparison to boy and girl.

Astrologer4U, please carefully consider the ethics of posting the charts of people whom you "diagnose" and who have not given you their permission to do so--possibly because they are minors. If you are not a licensed psychologist or social worker, you may not have the educational and clinical credentials to diagnose children. As I am sure you are aware, posting one chart of one gay man does not a case make for a "gay signature" in a chart. Also, due to societal pressures against gays and lesbians coming out, especially at an early age, many people with same-sex orientations have been involved in heterosexual relationships.
 

2xVirgo

Active member
On the Venus square Mars aspect, I'm a homosexual with a trine between Venus in Mars. Uranus doesn't have major aspects to either, I don't think. But it's in a Fire sign, like Venus and Mars, if that makes a difference...lol


I think sun-signs might have some influence. I've noticed that a LOT of air-sign people I meet have a tendency toward bisexuality.
 
Last edited:

2xVirgo

Active member
Astrologer4U said:
Were you always homosexual, or did you experience with the opposite sex first? Also, as a homosexual person, what if any problems do you have with people looking for indicators of homosexuality in a persons natal chart, does it bother you at all, if so, please be honest. You are a Virgo so I am sure you will analyze the question carefully. By all means, take your time.
Don't forget, my Mercury is retrograding :D So if I don't make sense, just ignore me lol

I haven't ever had sexual experiences with women, and since I was a child I knew and felt I was different, but it took reaching puberty to realize what that meant. I have yet to discover any kind of pattern between my hetero/homo/bisexual friends. I know one gay guy with Sun and Moon Libra, Mercury and Venus Scorpio, Mars Capricorn. (I don't remember their exact positions and aspects, unfortunately.)

If I had to go out on a limb and guess, I would say Pluto probably plays a subtle but important part in this. But I'd have to look into it some...
 

waybread

Well-known member
Keep in mind that it is unethical to post charts of people without their permission unless they are either (a) celebrities/public figures or (b) the charts and verbal descriptions are rendered highly anonymous. More to the point, if your former employer knew that you were using birth data contained in confidential records in order to diagnose children for psychological disorders (regardless of your professional qualifications to do so) and would be posting them on an international astrology discussion board, I think they would take a very dim view of it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

wilsontc

Staff member
please stay on topic, to all

all,

Please stay on topic. I have deleted all the off-topic responses. If anyone has any question why any moderator has posted a suggestion on forum behavior, please respond OFFline in a PM and do not disrupt the flow of the discussion. If anyone has a problem with how or what someone has posted, please PM a moderator and do NOT post your issue online.

Moderately,

Tim
 
Last edited:

sageofaquarius

Well-known member
The_Sundance_Kid said:
Now I think if we want to do the same for sexuality then one of us will have to take the lead and post a chart and be willing for people to discuss it.
OK, Sundance, in the interests of astrological research and since I seem to have at least three if not more of the "indicators" mentioned in this thread, I'll be the penguin who gets pushed off the iceberg to see if there are any sharks in the water! :eek:

Personally, I think starlink accurately summarised the complexity surrounding this subject in an earlier thread - there are many social, psychological and conditioning factors which contribute - and I particularly liked a comment by the much-missed Draco that you might as well expect the natal chart to tell whether you prefer brown bread or white!

I would also echo lillyjgc's cautionary advice to those living in countries where homosexuality is taboo or illegal. Reading this thread may comprise your safety; contributing to it may seriously do so. And to those subscribers in Western liberal democracies let me just say - Things can change! Beware and be aware.

This is not an ego trip. I am an openly gay man and have been for years. I offer this chart for astrological study, analysis and comment, and I promise to respond truthfully to serious questions relating to it.

sage

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/imagehosting/50994975d46ed14a0.gif
 
Last edited:

EJ53

Banned
Hi Sage,

I have not a clue about what might indicate sexuality in a chart.

However, your Sun/Mars/Neputune/Pluto kite is probably what gives you the courage to openly be yourself.

EJ:)
 
Last edited:

sageofaquarius

Well-known member
Thanks for the comment, EJ53.:)

I, too, have no idea how one might investigate sexuality in a chart, but if lack of data is the problem then it seems a good idea to follow up Kaiousei no Senshi's suggestion and collect 500 or so charts for analysis.

I've always felt my openness was a part of my Aquarian nature - adding one's life experiences to the general sum of human knowledge is only valid if one is truthful. I shall look into the kite formation with a new perspective. Thank you.

sage
 

gaer

Well-known member
sageofaquarius said:
Thanks for the comment, EJ53.:)

I, too, have no idea how one might investigate sexuality in a chart, but if lack of data is the problem then it seems a good idea to follow up Kaiousei no Senshi's suggestion and collect 500 or so charts for analysis.

I've always felt my openness was a part of my Aquarian nature - adding one's life experiences to the general sum of human knowledge is only valid if one is truthful. I shall look into the kite formation with a new perspective. Thank you.

sage
First of all, thank you for sharing your natal chart.

You have to understand that most people are reluctant to post their birth data. That makes finding 500 charts that are reliable very difficult.

My point in such discussions is that we can't depend on honesty to lead us in the right direction. For instance, what are the astrological indicators of homophobia? When people are afraid of gays, how much of that is linked to being "in the closet?" That's only one of a thousand problems.

Supposing, for instance, we are looking for indications of people being happy with who they are. Supposing we take the emphasis off being different (in any way) and put it on feeling comfortable, well-adjusted, and so on?

I don't know you at all, but by glancing at your chart, I would guess I could learn a thing or "three" from you about taking life as it comes, being able to "go with the flow". As an astrologer and as a human being, I look at sexual preference as just another detail about people, though obviously a very important one, so perhaps that's why I can't spot sexual preference in a chart. I still doubt that anyone can find it, reliably, but perhaps we can only find things that we see clearly AND that are important to us!
 
Last edited:

sageofaquarius

Well-known member
Hi gaer, nice to make your e-quaintance. My apologies for not replying earlier - yesterday was rather eventful, and I wound up with too many concurrent active threads too late at night to give yours the concentration I felt it deserved.

I was a bit mystified by your initial statement that:
gaer said:
we can't depend on honesty to lead us in the right direction.
What can we then depend on to lead us in the right direction? Aspects to Neptune? Or are you arguing that it is unrealistic to expect someone to be honest about their sexual desires?

gaer said:
For instance, what are the astrological indicators of homophobia? When people are afraid of gays, how much of that is linked to being "in the closet?"
I would associate fears with Saturn and/or Pluto. Saturn, the structuring disciplinarian, says "For your own good and that of society, thus far and no further." If you are a modernist and ascribe Pluto rulership of sexual matters, then I would look to aspects between these two planets for indications of homophobia. The political aspect of homophobia must also be considered - people will believe and behave in what they see as their best interest. Denial and projection are well attested psychological mechanisms, but I have been very impressed by the way in which some of the accomplished astrologers on this forum have cut through this smokescreen on the thread entitled "The chart of a gay man."

One of the problems is the pervasive nature of sex and sexuality in our societies today - and this thread is a part of that. It seems that everyone must have an opinion on the subject, but is that not part of the process by which public opinion comes to terms with a subject which for so long has been beyond the pale? Why it should concern anyone else what consenting adults do in private has always seemed a bit of a mystery to me.

I have already stated that I don't know the astrological answers to your questions. Horarists, in particular, seem already to have evidence that sexual orientation cannot be determined from a chart, but I posted mine so that it might be used for comparative analysis as one among many. Having three aspects in my natal which have been mentioned as "indications" in this and other threads, while at the same time not having others which were also mentioned, is personally interesting but may not be generally significant.

gaer said:
I don't know you at all, but by glancing at your chart, I would guess I could learn a thing or "three" from you about taking life as it comes, being able to "go with the flow".
:38: I invented the phrase! Haven't used it in a while, though. Second nature by now, I guess.

Best wishes.

sage
 

2xVirgo

Active member
I dunno how everybody feels about asteroids and other smaller bodies, but maybe they can play a part? Does anybody know much about the asteroids in general?
 

sageofaquarius

Well-known member
Hello 2xVirgo

Eric Francis is the man who seems to know most about asteroids, their mythology and interpretation. He is also very astute on the subject of sex and astrology, and is the opposite of a prude. Yesterday I received his sun-sign forecasts for February, and the reading for Aquarius contained the following:

"In the mythology of the New Age, the Guaranteed Soul Mate comes along with Purity, Growth and Enlightenment. In a slightly old-timer Christian framework, if we are good and moral people, God will love us enough to send us our beloved. It is basically all the same lie. In truth, everyone deserves love, and notably, everyone has different needs relating to love. Some people need one lover and some need many. Some need same sex partners, some need opposite sex and some need both. Some people need only friends, some need their friends to be their lovers, and some people need to be left alone."

It seemed very appropriate in the light of current discussions on this forum.

Some of his web pages are free, others require a subscription.

The home address is:
http://www.planetwaves.net

February horoscopes for all signs can be accessed at:
http://www.planetwaves.net/smallworlds/contents/horoscopes

I love your location address, by the way. It sounds very romantic.

Best wishes.

sage
 

starlink

Well-known member
Astrologer4U, you said:
I have two friends that are gay. I will post their charts just as soon as I dig them up, and I will give background on the individual the chart belongs to.

I do hope your friends know about your intentions?
We have a rule in this Forum, please adhere to this:

Astrological data are highly sensitive. We therefore ask you to take the protection of personal data of third persons very seriously. If you wish to post the chart of a person known to you, you must have their permission to do so or anonymise the name and all birth / personal data. If this is not the case, please refrain from posting this chart.
Also remeber that this is a public forum, indexed by search engines (Google, for instance), so basically everything you post here is not only viewable by any other person, but it also can be retrieved by a simple internet search.

Just so you (and others likewise) know!

Starlink
 

2xVirgo

Active member
sageofaquarius said:
Hello 2xVirgo

Eric Francis is the man who seems to know most about asteroids, their mythology and interpretation. He is also very astute on the subject of sex and astrology, and is the opposite of a prude. Yesterday I received his sun-sign forecasts for February, and the reading for Aquarius contained the following:

"In the mythology of the New Age, the Guaranteed Soul Mate comes along with Purity, Growth and Enlightenment. In a slightly old-timer Christian framework, if we are good and moral people, God will love us enough to send us our beloved. It is basically all the same lie. In truth, everyone deserves love, and notably, everyone has different needs relating to love. Some people need one lover and some need many. Some need same sex partners, some need opposite sex and some need both. Some people need only friends, some need their friends to be their lovers, and some people need to be left alone."

It seemed very appropriate in the light of current discussions on this forum.

Some of his web pages are free, others require a subscription.

The home address is:
http://www.planetwaves.net

February horoscopes for all signs can be accessed at:
http://www.planetwaves.net/smallworlds/contents/horoscopes

I love your location address, by the way. It sounds very romantic.

Best wishes.

sage
The location's just a translation of the nickname of the city I live in. I might change the language.

That's an awesome link, by the way... Much less tangible than other horoscopes seem to be. More astrological, in a way. It's almost poetic lol



As for the topic we started on...
Here's a few aspects some of my other gay friends have.

1
Sun Taurus11, Moon Pisces2, Asc Libra4
Venus Taurus18, Mars Cancer1, Uranus Capricorn5
Sun conjunct Venus, Mars opposite Uranus.

2
Sun Capricorn16, Moon Capricorn1, Asc Pisces0
Venus Sagittarius23, Mars Aries24, Uranus Capricorn2
Sun square Mars, Venus trine Mars, Moon Conjunct Venus and trine Mars

3
Sun Libra10, Moon Libra15, Asc Cancer1
Venus Scorpio17, Mars Capricorn27, Uranus Sagittarius18
No major aspects between Venus, Mars and Uranus.
 

gaer

Well-known member
sageofaquarius said:
Hi gaer, nice to make your e-quaintance. My apologies for not replying earlier - yesterday was rather eventful, and I wound up with too many concurrent active threads too late at night to give yours the concentration I felt it deserved.
I don't get on every night myself.

I was a bit mystified by your initial statement that:

>>we can't depend on honesty to lead us in the right direction.
I was inplying that it is unrealistic to expect the majority of people to be honest about their sexual desires, even with themselves. I don't expect this to fully change within my lifetime. I hope that our children and grandchildren will live in a world where they no longer fear being honest about such matters. But there is has been an incredible improvement from when I was born, 1948, and I see you were born only four years earlier. :)
I would associate fears with Saturn and/or Pluto. Saturn, the structuring disciplinarian, says "For your own good and that of society, thus far and no further." If you are a modernist and ascribe Pluto rulership of sexual matters, then I would look to aspects between these two planets for indications of homophobia. The political aspect of homophobia must also be considered - people will believe and behave in what they see as their best interest. Denial and projection are well attested psychological mechanisms, but I have been very impressed by the way in which some of the accomplished astrologers on this forum have cut through this smokescreen on the thread entitled "The chart of a gay man."
In general I would look to anything in a chart that shows a deep attachment to conservative thinking, to inflexibility, and to insensitivity, in general. The bottom line is always fear, so of course we need to look for that. It seems to me that bigotry is the real problem. I grew up with a great deal of this in my own family. I've struggled my entire life with trying to understand where thier opinions came from. My conclusion at this time is that most people born in any time period reflect the thinking that prevails, and only a small minority is able to think outside that "box".
Why it should concern anyone else what consenting adults do in private has always seemed a bit of a mystery to me.
To me also. We see a bit more tolerance at present because it is actually somewhat PC now to be more tolerant. To me this just means that the exact way bigotry manifests itself continually moves to other areas. Most people will always fear what they don't understand.
I have already stated that I don't know the astrological answers to your questions. Horarists, in particular, seem already to have evidence that sexual orientation cannot be determined from a chart, but I posted mine so that it might be used for comparative analysis as one among many. Having three aspects in my natal which have been mentioned as "indications" in this and other threads, while at the same time not having others which were also mentioned, is personally interesting but may not be generally significant.
My experience is that these indicators have shown up many times in "straight" charts, so unless people who have those charts have not been telling the truth, I remain skeptical. :)
("go with the flow".)

I invented the phrase! Haven't used it in a while, though. Second nature by now, I guess.
The strong grand trine in air and planets involved seem to point that way. Even Pluto opposite the Sun is softened by the way both Sun and Pluto are easily aspected to several other planets. ;)

g
 
Top