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  #1  
Unread 02-15-2014, 01:36 AM
Blue Lioness Blue Lioness is offline
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Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I'm very curious about Astrology and sometimes I try to understand my friends' behaviours by looking at their charts. So I would like to know if there are aspects that indicate people who talk a lot, but never listen to what others are saying.
I wouldn't say this is only connected with the way they were educated by their parents/families. I think there's more than this, and I was curious if we can see it through Astrology.
Anyone?

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Unread 02-15-2014, 03:00 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

This can turn into a slippery slope quick and wish to err on caution without generalizing. However, I will point out my observations. Having Mercury in a fixed sign that is afflicted (by aspect, degree and etc.) can generally indicate an unwillingness to consider the opinions of others to the point of callousness. This isn't to say that only people with a fixed Mercury don't listen. I have a fixed Mercury and while I am sensitive, it is not easy for me to change my mind. This is something that I continuously work on, but I know when I am wrong and fix it.

In my experience, almost all of the people whom I encountered that "don't listen" are Aquarius and have strong personal planets in that sign. Leo, another fixed sign, can have this problem as well. If we step outside of the personal and look at the roles that the 5th and 11th houses we may glean some insight. Succedent or fixed houses support the functions that were established in the preceding Cardinal houses. This may create a stubbornness that can become dogmatic and unimaginative due to insecurity or the desire to "keep power" as opposed to acquiring new power or relinquishing it (cardinal houses usually).

Maybe you can provide some examples of "problem" people that you have encountered and we can find some patterns.
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Last edited by kailaniatsea; 02-15-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 03:59 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

oh hey I know plenty of people like that, too bad I don't know their birth data -.-
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Unread 02-16-2014, 02:30 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailaniatsea View Post
This can turn into a slippery slope quick and wish to err on caution without generalizing. However, I will point out my observations. Having Mercury in a fixed sign that is afflicted (by aspect, degree and etc.) can generally indicate an unwillingness to consider the opinions of others to the point of callousness. This isn't to say that only people with a fixed Mercury don't listen. I have a fixed Mercury and while I am sensitive, it is not easy for me to change my mind. This is something that I continuously work on, but I know when I am wrong and fix it.

In my experience, almost all of the people whom I encountered that "don't listen" are Aquarius and have strong personal planets in that sign. Leo, another fixed sign, can have this problem as well. If we step outside of the personal and look at the roles that the 5th and 11th houses we may glean some insight. Succedent or fixed houses support the functions that were established in the preceding Cardinal houses. This may create a stubbornness that can become dogmatic and unimaginative due to insecurity or the desire to "keep power" as opposed to acquiring new power or relinquishing it (cardinal houses usually).

Maybe you can provide some examples of "problem" people that you have encountered and we can find some patterns.

Ok. I know two people who act a lot like this - to the point that they stay talking during hours and never listen to what others are saying.

[Person 1]
Sun in Taurus (1st house) / Mercury in Gemini (2nd house) / 5th and 11th houses are empty

[Person 2]
Sun in Libra / Mercury in Scorpio (I don't know the time birth)

Apparently none of them have planets in Aquarius or Leo, and the first has not their Mercury on fixed signs. but it's so weird, because they are so similar in this thing. when I'm talking to them, I can see in their eyes that they're not listening. but I notice it's part of their personalities - they act like this with other people as well.

do you think this could happen with people who have Air as the most dominant element?
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Unread 02-16-2014, 04:59 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lioness View Post
Ok. I know two people who act a lot like this - to the point that they stay talking during hours and never listen to what others are saying.

[Person 1]
Sun in Taurus (1st house) / Mercury in Gemini (2nd house) / 5th and 11th houses are empty

[Person 2]
Sun in Libra / Mercury in Scorpio (I don't know the time birth)

Apparently none of them have planets in Aquarius or Leo, and the first has not their Mercury on fixed signs. but it's so weird, because they are so similar in this thing. when I'm talking to them, I can see in their eyes that they're not listening. but I notice it's part of their personalities - they act like this with other people as well.

do you think this could happen with people who have Air as the most dominant element?
I know someone at work like this who just talks and talks and doesn't listen. He'll continue to talk while you are in the middle of a sentence. I'll have to find his birthday but it wasn't long ago, I think just before Christmas, meaning perhaps an Aquarius Mercury (fixed sign) - I think there may something to that with the Mercury in a fixed sign, perhaps with a negative aspect to something else like Pluto.
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Unread 02-16-2014, 07:11 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I know two people who do this and they are both Geminis who live in the bubble of illusion that they have obtained so much knowledge though the years, they can never be wrong, even if they are presented with a piece of information for the first time. And they don't stop talking about themselves, explaining useless to the others things. Seriously, they don't stop .
I also know a Scorpio who is like that. But there the reason is other - they may have just a few important(according to themselves) opinions about things but they don't stop repeating them over and over so others remember them and take them into consideration which most likely won't happen .
Of course, nobody can guess just from the Sun sign all the qualities and tendencies of a person and I can't lie - only in one of the cases the ego is involved.
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Unread 02-16-2014, 08:18 AM
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Lightbulb Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

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Originally Posted by Blue Lioness View Post
Ok. I know two people who act a lot like this - to the point that they stay talking during hours and never listen to what others are saying.
I've suffered with family and former friends who behaved like this. My dog is my best friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lioness View Post
[Person 1]
Sun in Taurus (1st house) / Mercury in Gemini (2nd house) / 5th and 11th houses are empty

[Person 2]
Sun in Libra / Mercury in Scorpio (I don't know the time birth)

Apparently none of them have planets in Aquarius or Leo, and the first has not their Mercury on fixed signs. but it's so weird, because they are so similar in this thing. when I'm talking to them, I can see in their eyes that they're not listening. but I notice it's part of their personalities - they act like this with other people as well.

do you think this could happen with people who have Air as the most dominant element?
Your experience apparently was different than mine. I was only speaking from personal experience and will cite more specific examples ranging from my grandmother to former friends. Yes, I loved these people dearly, but their stubbornness and inability to listen killed me. BTW- I posted the charts of my grandma, brother, friend "B" and friend "A" for review and commentary.

My grandmother had Mercury in Leo, but her Sun conjunct Pluto may have made her intensely emotional and closed minded (bless her heart though). My brother also has Mercury in Leo, but has the Moon in Aquarius, thereby creating an opposition to his Mercury. His moon makes him cool and rational (Aquarius), yet his thoughts are so tied into his pride (Leo) that it negates the latter.

Former friend "B" had Sun conjunct Mercury in Aquarius opposite Moon. She always tooted her horn on her own intelligence and it was virtually impossible to have a truly equal conversation. At first, I attributed it to her youth (we were high school classmates) and didn't think much of it, but as the years wore on it wasn't so innocuous. That and she liked to channel her thoughts (evil Mercury) to the dark side whenever a lover rejected her advances. "B" had a pyramid that she "manifested" curses into and apparently it worked because a boy that turned her down got into a car accident and injured his shoulder. Maybe it was coincidence; I never liked black magic. She later expressed remorse that she took things too far.

Former friend "A" (childhood friend) had Pluto in her 1st house and she was a bit controlling and relationship oriented (boys) from early on (Libra). Her Moon was in Taurus, a fixed sign in the 8th house, a possessive placement. Then, Mars, ruler of her DC was in Leo, a proud sign. My biggest issue with her was the compulsive lying and exaggeration (at best). I never asked her to prove anything to me, just be a good friend. Yet her insecurity (she was ridiculed a lot) skewed her like that. It's interesting to note that Neptune sits in her 3rd house, communication, and squares her Saturn in the 12th. "A" had problems with reality (Saturn in Virgo) and was deeply ashamed (maybe afflicted 12th and Virgo) of her mother's poor working class roots.

Oppositions can either improve us by challenging us or weaken us and turn us into a liability. One pattern that shows up in these charts is a prominent Pluto, afflicted Mercury, Moon and dominance of fixed signs in equally detrimental positions. Thanks to Blue Lioness for bringing up this subject. I didn't stop to think how important it is to consider this in a chart.
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  #8  
Unread 02-16-2014, 11:44 AM
Ebenia Ebenia is offline
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

There are so many forms of miscommunication and they all must have a different symbolism behind them.

One of the most interesting cases is my friend who has Mercury at 0 degrees Leo on the ASC and opposite the Moon and square Pluto. Mercury makes positive aspects to Mars and Jupiter. He is the most talented poet and he makes the most amazing poems and he is amazing listener for other people's problems....BUT when it comes to HIM, he does not listen to ANYTHING. He just mirrors it back to the other person and says that "you only see that in me because of yourself" and even though to some extent that is true, that attitude seriously impairs his ability to grow in relationships and in himself. He can keep a light relationship and has a wide circle of friends and many admirers, but close relationships are impossible with him because he is unwilling to question himself in relationship to anything.

Another example is a person who many people find very difficult to communicate with. He almost seems like he has some kind of deficit, cause he does not communicate really like normal people do in a conversational setting. When the other person talks, they might just skip to another subject all together and not notice the other persons previous message at all. It is hard to say if he is listening at all or not. He also thinks constantly that other people do not understand him, when in fact he might not understand other people He is also very very determined and single minded in things. He has Mercury in Cancer retrograde inconjunct Neptune and square Pluto. He does also have positive formations with Uranus and Mars.

Another example is a woman that always comes to me and purges her problems but never ever listens or comments much on what I have to say to the thing. She has Mercury conjunct Neptune in the 6th house in Capricorn. She does not have very determined ideas about anything, but she is very confused very often.
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  #9  
Unread 02-16-2014, 04:24 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailaniatsea View Post
I've suffered with family and former friends who behaved like this. My dog is my best friend.



Your experience apparently was different than mine. I was only speaking from personal experience and will cite more specific examples ranging from my grandmother to former friends. Yes, I loved these people dearly, but their stubbornness and inability to listen killed me. BTW- I posted the charts of my grandma, brother, friend "B" and friend "A" for review and commentary.

My grandmother had Mercury in Leo, but her Sun conjunct Pluto may have made her intensely emotional and closed minded (bless her heart though). My brother also has Mercury in Leo, but has the Moon in Aquarius, thereby creating an opposition to his Mercury. His moon makes him cool and rational (Aquarius), yet his thoughts are so tied into his pride (Leo) that it negates the latter.

Former friend "B" had Sun conjunct Mercury in Aquarius opposite Moon. She always tooted her horn on her own intelligence and it was virtually impossible to have a truly equal conversation. At first, I attributed it to her youth (we were high school classmates) and didn't think much of it, but as the years wore on it wasn't so innocuous. That and she liked to channel her thoughts (evil Mercury) to the dark side whenever a lover rejected her advances. "B" had a pyramid that she "manifested" curses into and apparently it worked because a boy that turned her down got into a car accident and injured his shoulder. Maybe it was coincidence; I never liked black magic. She later expressed remorse that she took things too far.

Former friend "A" (childhood friend) had Pluto in her 1st house and she was a bit controlling and relationship oriented (boys) from early on (Libra). Her Moon was in Taurus, a fixed sign in the 8th house, a possessive placement. Then, Mars, ruler of her DC was in Leo, a proud sign. My biggest issue with her was the compulsive lying and exaggeration (at best). I never asked her to prove anything to me, just be a good friend. Yet her insecurity (she was ridiculed a lot) skewed her like that. It's interesting to note that Neptune sits in her 3rd house, communication, and squares her Saturn in the 12th. "A" had problems with reality (Saturn in Virgo) and was deeply ashamed (maybe afflicted 12th and Virgo) of her mother's poor working class roots.

Oppositions can either improve us by challenging us or weaken us and turn us into a liability. One pattern that shows up in these charts is a prominent Pluto, afflicted Mercury, Moon and dominance of fixed signs in equally detrimental positions. Thanks to Blue Lioness for bringing up this subject. I didn't stop to think how important it is to consider this in a chart.

Most prominent about friend "A" is the Chiron conjunct the Moon opposite Sun nearly exact. This person was insecure because of a massive cover up of childhood pain, and with Chiron sesquiquadrate Saturn not much of chance of working through it easily and as you said, not much help or a hindrance from a parent. Venus is also badly afflicted so this person never feels safe. The Neptune in the 3rd and quincunx the Moon was the only outlet, and a poor one - using skewed and fake communication as a mask. Mercury is square the Node so this is a life path and life lesson.

Friend "B"'s insecurity likely from a T-square of Venus-Chiron-Moon with Venus on the ASC and Chiron in the 3rd. Again another person who never feels comfortable or safe in the world and highly influenced by what other people say and think. The Moon is conjunct the node and square Chiron so again another life lesson and life path.

For grandma having Pluto conjunct Sun and both square Mars makes her very possessive and controlling, especially with Mars in Aries. With Neptune on the ASC she never saw the world clearly and it probably seemed very ephemeral and fleeting and over-compensated by being controlling in her own little sphere. Vertex in 4th in Sag is opposite Venus so maintaining stability and security in the home was paramount yet her outside world likely didn't reflect that so again an over-compensation.

The brother has Saturn right on the DSC which I assume is never a great place (struggles in relationships), and Venus is in the 7th in a near exact square with Uranus - love relationships are very erratic or short, and with Venus in Cancer feeling worthy of love is very important but with square to Uranus, this feeling is constantly just out of reach. Sun conjunct Mars both square Neptune cloud judgment and actions and make one susceptible to easy outs (drugs, alcohol, sex, etc). Chiron is right on the IC and square Venus so what he learned about bad relationships apparently came from the home life some how, and this pain is carried forward into his current relationships. Not a great chart.
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Unread 02-16-2014, 06:49 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
But.... Geminis are never wrong!
Of course, except for when they are xD.
You don't say it to them, a change in the opinion won't occur because they either continue explaining why they are not wrong or why they are innocent and their position was such that they simply weren't able to know the complete truth because of the circumstances and if they were presented with it, they would know better than anyonse else, according to them. You just don't do what they say is right and move on. There is a little secret - geminis are actually more fixed than they are mutable. Not that their airy cousins are always so objective as they are said to be....
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Unread 02-17-2014, 02:01 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

If this is posted twice sorry my pc is acting up again Merc rx as usual
I also think there is no one person never wrong
there is no one planet, sign etc that is flawless
what one lacks, one will make up in another
natally I have Mars on Dsc no wonder I keep meeting people who don't listen, and when they do, never allow me finish my sentence
it's either I do what they want me to do, agree what they want me to agree with, or I'm done
it's either I follow their religion, or I am evil.
funny thing is the Scorpio sun/mercury I know are the ones that listen (observant, what they do with the information I don't know lol)
also Libra sun/mercury (well I have Pluto Libra 11th sextile Sun/mercury 10th )
so I make up for it. if they listen, I listen. if they don't, I don't. if I don't listen, I don't expect them to listen. if this is evil, well so be it.
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Unread 02-17-2014, 04:25 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Thank you very much for your wonderful insight and comments.

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Most prominent about friend "A" is the Chiron conjunct the Moon opposite Sun nearly exact. This person was insecure because of a massive cover up of childhood pain, and with Chiron sesquiquadrate Saturn not much of chance of working through it easily and as you said, not much help or a hindrance from a parent. Venus is also badly afflicted so this person never feels safe. The Neptune in the 3rd and quincunx the Moon was the only outlet, and a poor one - using skewed and fake communication as a mask. Mercury is square the Node so this is a life path and life lesson.
This sounds about right; friend "A" complained about how strict her mother was and wished she could be as free as me when we were kids. I imagine that she was in a lot of pain because she grew up without a father and her early years were poor after Dad walked out on them. You know how cruel kids can be. It wasn't until her maternal grandmother purchased a home with her pension and Social Security in the early 1990's and took them in that they lived better. Granny was very outspoken and perhaps it was an unspoken sentiment that she had to rescue the daughter who could never get it together. Her other children rose up the socioeconomic ranks based on Granny's own accounts.

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Originally Posted by mdinaz View Post
Friend "B"'s insecurity likely from a T-square of Venus-Chiron-Moon with Venus on the ASC and Chiron in the 3rd. Again another person who never feels comfortable or safe in the world and highly influenced by what other people say and think. The Moon is conjunct the node and square Chiron so again another life lesson and life path.
This is interesting because friend "B" struggled to fit in after her parents immigrated to the United States. Back home, she was discriminated against for being dark skinned and sickly and here in the States she was unable to find her place establish her place in the community.

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For grandma having Pluto conjunct Sun and both square Mars makes her very possessive and controlling, especially with Mars in Aries. With Neptune on the ASC she never saw the world clearly and it probably seemed very ephemeral and fleeting and over-compensated by being controlling in her own little sphere. Vertex in 4th in Sag is opposite Venus so maintaining stability and security in the home was paramount yet her outside world likely didn't reflect that so again an over-compensation.
This was very true, yet she hid her insecurity very well. I would have never guessed. She resented my mother's strength (Moon in Aries) and resilience (Virgo ASC, Saturn in Scorpio), but she gravitated towards her children with more issues than herself....

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The brother has Saturn right on the DSC which I assume is never a great place (struggles in relationships), and Venus is in the 7th in a near exact square with Uranus - love relationships are very erratic or short, and with Venus in Cancer feeling worthy of love is very important but with square to Uranus, this feeling is constantly just out of reach. Sun conjunct Mars both square Neptune cloud judgment and actions and make one susceptible to easy outs (drugs, alcohol, sex, etc). Chiron is right on the IC and square Venus so what he learned about bad relationships apparently came from the home life some how, and this pain is carried forward into his current relationships. Not a great chart.
Bro's been married for over 20 years, but has complained of incompatibility with his wife. Deep down, I believe that he idealizes casual sex (Venus square Uranus and Sun-Mars square Neptune) with easy women, but can't publicly bring himself to it because it doesn't look good. I based this on certain comments that he has made. My brother has never been an alcoholic or drug addict, but he is a fitness nut. His home life was not ideal, I can imagine. We were born several years apart. The problem is that he has treated me poorly (his Saturn opposes my Moon and Neptune) and projects his pain onto me thereby emotionally and verbally abusing me (his Aries Chiron makes a Grand Cross with my natal Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto, ASC and DC in my 3rd house). This is the reason why I keep distance from him.
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Unread 02-17-2014, 03:13 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

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This is interesting because friend "B" struggled to fit in after her parents immigrated to the United States. Back home, she was discriminated against for being dark skinned and sickly and here in the States she was unable to find her place establish her place in the community.
Venus on the ASC would make one very conscious of not only safety and security but beauty and self-image to the outside world. The ASC is not only what we put out to the world, but what the world inputs to us. With the negative aspects to Venus, a person would be negatively self-conscious about themselves and very sensitive to criticism.


Quote:
Bro's been married for over 20 years, but has complained of incompatibility with his wife. Deep down, I believe that he idealizes casual sex (Venus square Uranus and Sun-Mars square Neptune) with easy women, but can't publicly bring himself to it because it doesn't look good. I based this on certain comments that he has made. My brother has never been an alcoholic or drug addict, but he is a fitness nut. His home life was not ideal, I can imagine. We were born several years apart. The problem is that he has treated me poorly (his Saturn opposes my Moon and Neptune) and projects his pain onto me thereby emotionally and verbally abusing me (his Aries Chiron makes a Grand Cross with my natal Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto, ASC and DC in my 3rd house). This is the reason why I keep distance from him.
Sun conjunct Mars would make one very active and focused on the body, and perhaps with the square to Neptune, gives him a skewed image of his body - perhaps it is never good enough or the issues he sees are overblown in his mind and he overcompensates with being a fitness nut. Perhaps because of poor relationships he views relationship rejection as a rejection of himself as a whole, and he blames his body (his "self") as the problem so overcompensates to make his body as perfect as possible not realizing its the inner that needs work, not the outer.

Venus square Uranus is interesting. With Venus in the 7th house, security is important, but Venus also reflects morals and beliefs. With the square to Uranus those morals are out of whack as they apply to relationships. Uranus is where we want to escape and perhaps the casual sex idea (you assume he's never strayed) is his way to escape the oppression of relationships as he always feels rejected there.

This is also possible - because of the strong identification with the masculine (Sun conjunct Mars), but square Neptune, and with Venus square Uranus - perhaps he's also attracted to men and can't deal with the idea?
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Unread 02-17-2014, 10:17 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

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Originally Posted by mdinaz View Post
Venus on the ASC would make one very conscious of not only safety and security but beauty and self-image to the outside world. The ASC is not only what we put out to the world, but what the world inputs to us. With the negative aspects to Venus, a person would be negatively self-conscious about themselves and very sensitive to criticism.
Friend "B" did have and probably still has an eating disorder. She was obsessed with supermodels and described her body in the most exacting and bizarre terms such as deriding her thighs for being too muscular, flabby and not liking the fat between them as the industry ideal was to have thighs that "stand apart." I never understood what the big deal was, but I was aware that she wanted to become a model. She had the looks for it, but focused on the wrong things appearance wise in order to succeed. In retrospect, I think it was more of an obsession because when one decides to become a professional they engage in proactive behaviors to increase their chances for stable employment.


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Sun conjunct Mars would make one very active and focused on the body, and perhaps with the square to Neptune, gives him a skewed image of his body - perhaps it is never good enough or the issues he sees are overblown in his mind and he overcompensates with being a fitness nut.
This could be true; our mother was an athlete as a child. He always wanted to be taller, but looks great the way he is.

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Venus square Uranus is interesting. With Venus in the 7th house, security is important, but Venus also reflects morals and beliefs. With the square to Uranus those morals are out of whack as they apply to relationships. Uranus is where we want to escape and perhaps the casual sex idea is his way to escape the oppression of relationships as he always feels rejected there.
His attitude towards females is messed up. He is quick to judge our (meaning women) sexual history and taste in partners. And when he has discussed women in sexual terms he has expressed himself in derogatory terms, yet he fails to mention men...He always told me to never get married because all men are controlling dogs. I am unmarried, but for different reasons (my Venus in Virgo afflicted with Moon and Neptune, maybe).

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(you assume he's never strayed)
It isn't something that I assume; I just prefer to not think about it too much because it is his life at the end of the day. I have told our mother that I suspect he strays from his wife given his natal chart and she has concurred.

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This is also possible - because of the strong identification with the masculine (Sun conjunct Mars), but square Neptune, and with Venus square Uranus - perhaps he's also attracted to men and can't deal with the idea?
My mother and I have discussed the possibility that my brother could secretly be gay. We never put too much stock into it, but left the possibility open. I always told my mother that he focuses too much on gay people (e.g. jokes and parodies and antagonistic attitudes). He was not taught this at home. It's one thing to be conservative and disagree with homosexuality, but it's another thing all together to be hung up on it. At home, my grandmother did express conservative attitudes (she was born in the 1920's), but neither grandma nor Mom ever told him that if he were gay that he would expelled from the house or disowned. They loved him the best way that they could given the circumstances.
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Unread 04-20-2014, 04:28 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Imho:

- Mercury in bad aspects.
- mercury in fire signs.
- 5th house (self)

-Things in the chart what indicates that the person is stubborn (taurus, scorpio, aquarius,just for example) or has lots of self esteem / Proud (leo, gemini, aries, sagittarius,just for example) they think never need know what others have to say, because of somehow judge their thoughts / interests best than other people.

Of course,I'm talking about these signs or their corresponding houses and planets in badly aspect.
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Unread 04-20-2014, 06:24 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I'm an old cab driver. One of my entertainments while driving is studying the minds of my passengers, how they think and thus act.

Sometimes I will run an infomal survery, a poll, or accumlate observations in order to see what percentages of people behave in certain ways. For example, half of all people, when asked whether to turn right or turn left will invariably say "Your side," of My side", but don't know right from left.

Another similar survey showed that of all people fully half go yakkity-yakkity-yak and have no capacity for listening. These people get in the back seat of the cab and begin letting all the rocks in their head roll around, and let them fall out of their mouths one by one. They have nothing to say and can't listen. The cab driver dutifully says "Uh-huh" or "Interesting" every minute and thirty seconds and lets the avalanche of gravel continue.

Perhaps a taxicab survey is not exactly scientific, but it is illuminating. Whatever the case, a large percentage of people fall into the type being discussed here. This would suggest that the indicators, whatever they may be, should be found in the charts of a significant percentage of the population.
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junoisuppose (04-20-2014)
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Unread 04-20-2014, 02:28 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I'm an old cab driver. One of my entertainments while driving is studying the minds of my passengers, how they think and thus act.

Sometimes I will run an infomal survery, a poll, or accumlate observations in order to see what percentages of people behave in certain ways. For example, half of all people, when asked whether to turn right or turn left will invariably say "Your side," of My side", but don't know right from left.

Another similar survey showed that of all people fully half go yakkity-yakkity-yak and have no capacity for listening. These people get in the back seat of the cab and begin letting all the rocks in their head roll around, and let them fall out of their mouths one by one. They have nothing to say and can't listen. The cab driver dutifully says "Uh-huh" or "Interesting" every minute and thirty seconds and lets the avalanche of gravel continue.

Perhaps a taxicab survey is not exactly scientific, but it is illuminating. Whatever the case, a large percentage of people fall into the type being discussed here. This would suggest that the indicators, whatever they may be, should be found in the charts of a significant percentage of the population.
There are probably a lot of possible reasons why this might manifest, but I'm guessing that one big reason is having mercury conjunct the sun, this is one of the most common aspects, people might even be more likely, statistically, to have their sun conjunct mercury than not, I'm not sure. In a horary we would say that mercury is "combust" and therefore a little debilitated. The mercury function is fused with the ego, which might manifest in a person tending to talk about him or herself or his or her opinions more than any other topic, and also when listening the ego is involved, thinking things like "How does this affect me?" or "What can I say about this to sound witty/knowledgeable etc" rather than actually listening to the other person.

P.S. I have this aspect
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Unread 04-21-2014, 05:36 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote from junoisuppose --
The mercury function is fused with the ego, which might manifest in a person tending to talk about him or herself or his or her opinions more than any other topic, and also when listening the ego is involved, thinking things like "How does this affect me?" or "What can I say about this to sound witty/knowledgeable etc" rather than actually listening to the other person.

This is probably one of the most common mental processes involved in not listening to others. I think there are others as well.

In my opinion, we are on the wrong track when we try to find some "general indicator" of some partiicular trait in a chart. Too often, traits are shown by indications that don't seem to be related to the trait. It is a backwards approach to the problem.

What I have found more effective is to read the chart, understand the inclinations of the personality, and then draw conclusions (inferences) from what we know.

I don't interpret Sun as "ego". Perhaps it is that; I may be wrong. But I think that "ego" is found primarily at the Ascendant. The Sun is "I" -- the true Self at the center of being, but in my view this is not the same as the "Me" found at the Ascendant.

I have a combust Mercury. I like to think that I'm a good listener. Assuming that I am not deluding myself in this matter, then to ascribe "poor listening" to a combust Mercury is a sweeping generalization that may not apply consistently enough. Also, it matters whether Mercury rises before or after the Sun.

What about charts that show a person in whom Empathy is strong? Or is lacking? Wouldn't this be one example of an apparently unrelated trait that might affect listening habits? There are others.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 07:02 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

You guys are all describing my placements. Stop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailaniatsea View Post

My grandmother had Mercury in Leo, but her Sun conjunct Pluto may have made her intensely emotional and closed minded (bless her heart though). My brother also has Mercury in Leo, but has the Moon in Aquarius, thereby creating an opposition to his Mercury. His moon makes him cool and rational (Aquarius), yet his thoughts are so tied into his pride (Leo) that it negates the latter.

Former friend "B" had Sun conjunct Mercury in Aquarius opposite Moon. She always tooted her horn on her own intelligence and it was virtually impossible to have a truly equal conversation. At first, I attributed it to her youth (we were high school classmates) and didn't think much of it, but as the years wore on it wasn't so innocuous. That and she liked to channel her thoughts (evil Mercury) to the dark side whenever a lover rejected her advances. "B" had a pyramid that she "manifested" curses into and apparently it worked because a boy that turned her down got into a car accident and injured his shoulder. Maybe it was coincidence; I never liked black magic. She later expressed remorse that she took things too far.

Oppositions can either improve us by challenging us or weaken us and turn us into a liability. One pattern that shows up in these charts is a prominent Pluto, afflicted Mercury, Moon and dominance of fixed signs in equally detrimental positions. Thanks to Blue Lioness for bringing up this subject. I didn't stop to think how important it is to consider this in a chart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post

One of the most interesting cases is my friend who has Mercury at 0 degrees Leo on the ASC and opposite the Moon and square Pluto. Mercury makes positive aspects to Mars and Jupiter. He is the most talented poet and he makes the most amazing poems and he is amazing listener for other people's problems....BUT when it comes to HIM, he does not listen to ANYTHING. He just mirrors it back to the other person and says that "you only see that in me because of yourself" and even though to some extent that is true, that attitude seriously impairs his ability to grow in relationships and in himself. He can keep a light relationship and has a wide circle of friends and many admirers, but close relationships are impossible with him because he is unwilling to question himself in relationship to anything.

Another example is a person who many people find very difficult to communicate with. He almost seems like he has some kind of deficit, cause he does not communicate really like normal people do in a conversational setting. When the other person talks, they might just skip to another subject all together and not notice the other persons previous message at all. It is hard to say if he is listening at all or not. He also thinks constantly that other people do not understand him, when in fact he might not understand other people He is also very very determined and single minded in things. He has Mercury in Cancer retrograde inconjunct Neptune and square Pluto. He does also have positive formations with Uranus and Mars.
I have Rx Leo Merc, combust, opposition Moon, square Pluto, inconjunct Neptune.

Lots and lots of problems with communication through my life. I don't know if everyone who "doesn't listen" is like this, I believe they are not generally because I know the type that you're talking about, but sometimes I have problems listening because (to break it down):

1. Rx Mercury - it takes time to process thoughts. So I tend to be "still processing" while someone is talking. Like a lagging computer. Yet my expression is very quick (Gemini ASC). I often realize what people are saying much later after the processing is complete. Writing as a form of communication is very helpful in this regard.

2. Mercury Leo sq. Pluto - I feel like this placement causes me to be dramatic/forceful in expression, which can sometimes make people feel I won't listen to them or won't change my mind. I've been very stubborn in the past, but...

3. Mercury opp. Moon - This actually saves it, I believe. Moon forces reconsideration constantly. It "balances" mercury with empathy and mindedness that wouldn't otherwise be there. The struggle with this placement is that it creates an ability to see "both sides" of issues, and find both have merit. I was actually asked to be a class counciler/mentor in grade school because I was diplomatic and listened to everyone's side. Even if I'm forceful in how I express myself, I am always willing to change my mind and entertain another point of view. However, it's easy to get "lost" in other people's opinions and feelings OR in my own, and creating a real dialogue can be difficult because of that (Sun opposition to Moon as well; and I think Gemini ASC also has to do with this). Like kailaniatsea says, oppositions can be helpful or hurtful depending on how they are handled.

4. Mercury inconjunct Neptune - This causes communication blind spots. My mind can often "check out" without my realizing it. It's very frustrating. It's not that I'm not trying to listen, or too caught up in myself, it's just my brain will literally involunatrily shut off for small periods of time. What it's doing, I don't know. Maybe time traveling? I think this also feeds back in the Rx "processing", because I know this happens and have to review information over and over to make sure I didn't miss something. Ebenia, this may be what's happening with the person you describe with this placement, as well.

Another really important point about how Mercury is positioned is that an afflicted Mercury might actually help a person who has it in a fixed position, combust or otherwise shows signs of being self-centered. This is because it signals difficult communication, and if that is the case, such a person may come to be a better communicator with others because they are forced to through these difficulties.

One person that was notable for their lack of listening skills was a friend of mine who, no matter how hard you tried, would not listen to you if they didn't like what you were saying. Often they would create a problem, and then blame others and ignore their role in it to an extreme degree. Someone finally got him to listen by literally writing a 40-point list of everything that was wrong with how he was behaving (i.e. "beating on my door for 10 minutes because you are mad" type of wrongs), sat him down like a child and read him the list in blistering anger. It was quite a sight. I think that was the first time he was quiet and listened. Of course, it was an Aries Sun/Moon woman that did this!

He has Aquarius stellium: Sun, Mercury, Venus and Jupiter conjunct in 11th house, square Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sag, Aries Asc. Moon has no major aspects in Capricorn, Neptune on MC. It's a very interesting chart actually!
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junoisuppose (04-21-2014)
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Unread 04-21-2014, 02:51 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
What about charts that show a person in whom Empathy is strong? Or is lacking? Wouldn't this be one example of an apparently unrelated trait that might affect listening habits? There are others.
It would be. But what in a chart shows that a person is empathic? Water signs? Strong moon or neptune?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
to ascribe "poor listening" to a combust Mercury is a sweeping generalization that may not apply consistently enough. Also, it matters whether Mercury rises before or after the Sun.
I was just giving one example of what it might be.

This is just in my experience, but the very best listener I have met was one of the few people I know who did not have mercury combust.

Last edited by junoisuppose; 04-21-2014 at 03:01 PM.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 03:37 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I understand that you were giving an example.

Please don't take what is intended as a comment as a criticism.

There are many things that can show "empathy". That's the trick in chart interpretation, to find those things, even though no cookbook mentions them.

When we say (as an example) that a combust Mercury indicates a poor listener, we are promoting a cookbook approach to chart interpretation. Yes, I agree that the possibility is there...a combust Mercury may be one indication of "poor listening." But it is insufficient and not a reliable indicator in and of itself,

We can look at many threads in this forum, such as:
"Aspects indicating people who don't listen"
"Which aspects show lesbianism"
"Depression in the horoscope".....

And what we see over and over is the "cookbook mentality" which attempts to ascribe certain characteristics to specific aspects or positions. I am simply trying to point out that this approach to chart interpretation is simplistic, reductionist, and myopic...and doesn't work very well.

I recently posted to the thread titled "I hate my birth chart." (I was not happy with myself due to the harshness of the post... but, that notwithstanding, I think it is a positive contribution). I first referred to experts in psychiatry to provide a definition (symptoms of) of the psychopathic personality. I then found that the chart as a whole showed that these symptoms, all of them, were present in the chart. This does not involve "looking for" indicators of psychopathy in the chart, but rather in understanding and realizing that the chart does in fact contain a constellation of indications (character traits) that as a whole point toward the condition. This approach to astrology demands that the astrologer be aware of the constellation of symptoms that constitute any given condition and that the diagnosis of that condition results from a thorough reading of the chart as a whole first, rather than seeking to diagnose a condition based on one or a couple of supposed indicators, a method that gives very questionable results in most cases.

I have Venus trine Jupiter in my own chart. Read any cookbook description of this aspect. Nothing of what the books say is true of my life. The reasons for this are quite clear in my chart-as-a-whole, but no textbook on astrology will explain this anomaly...the student would read the cookbook and make pronouncements about my life that are simply not true, not pertinent, not useful. That is the problem with the "Which aspects indicate _x___?" approach; it doesn't really work. There are too many exceptions to the rule, too many modifying factors.

Last edited by greybeard; 04-21-2014 at 04:00 PM.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 07:14 PM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

greybeard,

"Indicators" are still used in that approach, but it requires more qualifiers. I think that's where the big-picture complexity comes from: what if you have two conflicting indicators, for example? Well, you could say that it means astrology is worthless or conflicts with itself; or you could realize that people often conflict with themselves and show such complexity.

To take the cookbook analogy... it's like saying that gathering your ingredients for your recipe is not a useful method for baking a cake because the cake does not taste like an egg, or like flour, or like butter. But you still need to figure out that you need those things to make it... and in astrology you also need to know what placements might indicate even if they don't cause a particular trait in themselves. So I find these threads useful in that respect.

Unless you have a completely different, secret method of figuring these things out.
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Unread 04-21-2014, 08:03 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Agreed, these threads can be useful...

Provided we are aware that the goal is to learn to see a chart as a whole
And I'm afraid that gets kicked off to the side of the road and into the weeds.

See Zarathu's thread "Two kinds of astrology."\

Most of the new (beginning & intermediate) students in this community (I would guess) can't calculate the Ascendant and house cusps. Take them out on a beautiful starry night and ask them to correlate the horoscope in their hand and the sky above their head and you'll get a blank stare. Sorry, but those skills are important. Astrology is based on the motions of the heavens.

When I was teaching English, one of my tasks at the beginning of a new class was to locate those folks who had studied English before, so that I could "unteach" them -- clean off the slate as it were. What's the point in developing bad habits of thought? And that's what this way of looking at astrology does.
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Unread 04-22-2014, 01:45 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
One of the most interesting cases is my friend who has Mercury at 0 degrees Leo on the ASC and opposite the Moon and square Pluto. Mercury makes positive aspects to Mars and Jupiter. He is the most talented poet and he makes the most amazing poems and he is amazing listener for other people's problems....BUT when it comes to HIM, he does not listen to ANYTHING. He just mirrors it back to the other person and says that "you only see that in me because of yourself" and even though to some extent that is true, that attitude seriously impairs his ability to grow in relationships and in himself. He can keep a light relationship and has a wide circle of friends and many admirers, but close relationships are impossible with him because he is unwilling to question himself in relationship to anything.
Wow, that is so me with a couple twists. Relationships and friendships develop fairly easily for me once they're started. It's getting them started and then being able to feel as though I am not the only one putting effort into sustaining them that's the problem.

I am very able to listen to advice from others when it comes to me. That's how I know what the polar opposite follow-through I will most likely use will be. It's not a very healthy roundabout way of self-growth and nearly always causes trust issues. My closest friends even tend to change their minds regarding their advice for me very shortly after I change my mind to take their considerations to heart without telling them I have done so. It's become maddening to the point I've begun to cut people off from giving me advice and swayed towards as hermit a lifestyle as being a father will allow.

My older daughter is old enough to feel secure to offer advice (and she likes reading deeply and informing others of what's best), and there are no mirroring issues between she and I in this regard.

Mars, Jupiter, Sun all at sequential critical 29 deg. in Cancer, Leo, Virgo respectively. Mercury conjunct Venus and Moon in 11th house Libra. ASC conjunct Uranus.
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Unread 04-22-2014, 02:23 AM
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Re: Aspects indicating people who don't listen?

I was discussing this thread with someone and came to a thought: It might be better to phrase this question in light of differing types of "non-listening" presented. Everyone here so far has talked about a slightly different listening problem or even differing communication styles (I think everyone actually has listening problems, just manifesting differently and to varying degrees).

If we're opening up to the broader question of "difficult communication" with others, some other things should be taken into account (and mostly is, but it seems worthwhile to point it out directly): What situations do these types of communications occur in, and with what people? What subjects cause difficulty (we've cited "themselves" and "others" mostly).

This conversation seems to be mainly Mercury centered, which brings in more ideas than just how a person listens... but also how they speak, think and perceive. That could provide more clues for which placements are affected by looking at why listening isn't occurring in a particular instance.
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