Actually Manilius makes no reference whatsoever to the planetary rulerships of signs.
Strength of Planetary Joys
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Actually Manilius makes no reference whatsoever to the planetary rulerships of signs.
Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
EternalAutumn said:
I'm not. I'm calling you Morin because your triplicity scheme is off philosophically. You're still trying to conflate natural place and the qualities of the elements when they aren't the same concept. I'm also really taken aback by the hypocrisy in this statement. I'm "air for the article's author" while you're wanking your own fan theory, but you're trying to play it off as if there is bias on my part, but not yours? That's not going to fly here.
Ptolemy's triplicity scheme is only different from the Dorothean scheme in two ways 1) there is no participatory ruler 2) Mars rules water both by day and night. This doesn't contradict the natural place scheme.
The issue that Chris is discussing here is that Ptolemy does not relate the signs of the zodiac to the elements because their oppositional pairs go against the Aristotelian elemental qualities, but instead appear to favor the Stoic model.
I'm not sure what the issue here is, because the two ideas are distinct, though related by both being ideas attributed to Aristotle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
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tsmall
Premium Member
I just love conversations like this. 
I started one a while back but then got distracted by trying learn astrology.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099
Here is my little tiny idea to toss into the mix (and eternalautumn, I am completely familiar with the article you referenced.) Are we not perhaps trying to force a left shoe onto a right foot? Isn't that what happened to the Pterrible Ptolemy in the first place?
Which is older, the joys and exaltations or the Stoic/Aristotelian/Hermetic/Judean/worldphilosphyofthemoment view?
I initially read that article because I wanted to learn more about the joys and so Kai was gracious enough to share it with me...and it turns out that the article is really trying to find a reason for the triplicity rulers.
To really understand where Chris is coming from, it would help to read this other article...
http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf
What I find to be key here isn't the rationale so much as the ideas of emitting and receiving. If we stop playing rock, paper, scissors around the chart, we need to ask a few more questions. What came first, the signs, or the attributes associated to them? When we decided which planets were nocturnal and which were diurnal by nature, what was the rationale underlying that? Sun, ok, because hello, Sun decides day or night...unlike Moon who seems to want to be anywhere in the sky when she feels like it (often I've pointed to a very pretty Moon in a day sky and said "out of sect.") But at night it is the light of the Moon that decides if you can see where you are going or not. Jupiter in the day? Sure, I guess. Saturn in the day makes tons of sense because Saturn needs all the warmth he can get. Venus by night also makes sense, because this is Venus we are talking about. Venus' nature is to reconcile and unify. Actually, we have very good definitions of the nature of all of the planets.
The Sun’s nature is to select
The Moon’s nature is to gather and include
Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize
Venus’ nature is to reconcile and to unify
Mars’ nature is to sever and to separate
Jupiter’s nature is to confirm and stabilize
Saturn’s nature is to reject and exclude
If most of ancient astrology is based on observations then at night the cooling temperatures allowed dew to collect on grass and objects, bringing together like with unlike.
If the planet you mean is the one I'm thinking of, I'm in total agreement.
No kidding. What works better for people in general, Mars in a sign that tempers his nature, or Mars as a masculine planet? Mars may prefer Aries, but I sure don't prefer Aries for Mars.
Maybe this is why Dorotheus included him as participating trip ruler?
Maybe because the exaltations haven't got a thing to do with triplicity rulers? Because perhaps the exaltations have more to do with something older?
Let's really look at joys and exaltations.
Sun is exalted in Aries, ruled by Mars. Oh, wow, in the Thema Aries is the 10th, the Sun is the king, and the 10th is associated with what? And how exactly does the Sun keep power? Sun joys in 9th (the house of the god) and the 9th in the Thema is Pisces (does anyone else see the correleation here between the sign of the fishes and Christianity?) which is ruled by Jupiter, the greater benefic. Sun falls in the exaltation of Saturn, which again makes sense looking at the Thema, since Saturn is like the antethisis of the Sun.
Moon is exalted in Taurus (an Earth sign, for those watching..why? Because without Moon to counter balance Sun, life on Earth wouldn't even exist.) Taurus represents all the little critters that have ever evolved on Earth (how many times in my journies have I been reminded that Taurus rules animials?) Taurus is ruled by Venus, the divine godess, and Taurus in the Thema is the 11th sign...the one that provides all the resources to support the king. Let's be fey and substitute "king" for most dominant species on the planet....
Moon falls in Scorpio, which is the 5th in the Thema. Oh, wow. That's a prolific sign that rules children. And is ruled by Mars. What exactly is the population of humans on the Earth today?
Mercury (aka Hermes, or even Thoth in older texts) is as already described, an hermaphrodite. He is the only planet exalted in an house that he also rules, and Mercury is also everywhere said to represent the rational mind. He joys in the 1st house of Cancer, which is also represented as the primal, or reactive mind (and I'm pretty sure this is confirmed in traditional texts, since we want Merc, Moon, and the ruler of the 12th for mental illness.) Virgo is the 3rd in the Thema...and the third is the what? Neighbors, cousins, the people you are forced to associate with by tribe, and even in modern astrology..the development of the mind/early education. Why does Mercury get the years of rulership from what? I'm messing it up here, but does Moon get to age 4, and then Mercury after? If we wanted to determine prejudice from a chart, what house would we look to?
Venus Joys in the 5th..and in the Thema, the 5th is Scorpio, which rules among other things reproduction. Further, Venus is exalted in the 9th, Pisces, ruled by Jupiter (the planet of what? Er, pregnancy and childbirth.) Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth. Oh, heck yeah. Just in typing this eploratation I'm wondering about what happened to the dinosaurs. What exactly is the population of humans on planet Earth today?
Mars. Ok, Mars is exalted in Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, but it is an Earth sign. Saturn is a malefic, and Mars is a malefic...why of all the exaltations and joys is one malefic (the nature of Mars is to sever and separate) exalted in the house/sign of another. Mars joys in the 6th according to tradition, which in the Thema means that Mars joys in Sagittarius, a sign of Jupiter. Mars is exalted in the 7th house of open enemies and in what degree? A degree that is classified as masculine, dark, and lame.
I need to go to bed. Because I thought I was replying to one idea, and found another instead.
What if, in addition to the birth of humanity, the Thema contains the seeds of humanity's destruction as well?
I started one a while back but then got distracted by trying learn astrology.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099
Here is my little tiny idea to toss into the mix (and eternalautumn, I am completely familiar with the article you referenced.) Are we not perhaps trying to force a left shoe onto a right foot? Isn't that what happened to the Pterrible Ptolemy in the first place?
Which is older, the joys and exaltations or the Stoic/Aristotelian/Hermetic/Judean/worldphilosphyofthemoment view?
I initially read that article because I wanted to learn more about the joys and so Kai was gracious enough to share it with me...and it turns out that the article is really trying to find a reason for the triplicity rulers.
To really understand where Chris is coming from, it would help to read this other article...
http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf
What I find to be key here isn't the rationale so much as the ideas of emitting and receiving. If we stop playing rock, paper, scissors around the chart, we need to ask a few more questions. What came first, the signs, or the attributes associated to them? When we decided which planets were nocturnal and which were diurnal by nature, what was the rationale underlying that? Sun, ok, because hello, Sun decides day or night...unlike Moon who seems to want to be anywhere in the sky when she feels like it (often I've pointed to a very pretty Moon in a day sky and said "out of sect.") But at night it is the light of the Moon that decides if you can see where you are going or not. Jupiter in the day? Sure, I guess. Saturn in the day makes tons of sense because Saturn needs all the warmth he can get. Venus by night also makes sense, because this is Venus we are talking about. Venus' nature is to reconcile and unify. Actually, we have very good definitions of the nature of all of the planets.
The Sun’s nature is to select
The Moon’s nature is to gather and include
Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize
Venus’ nature is to reconcile and to unify
Mars’ nature is to sever and to separate
Jupiter’s nature is to confirm and stabilize
Saturn’s nature is to reject and exclude
If most of ancient astrology is based on observations then at night the cooling temperatures allowed dew to collect on grass and objects, bringing together like with unlike.
If the planet you mean is the one I'm thinking of, I'm in total agreement.
No kidding. What works better for people in general, Mars in a sign that tempers his nature, or Mars as a masculine planet? Mars may prefer Aries, but I sure don't prefer Aries for Mars.
Maybe this is why Dorotheus included him as participating trip ruler?
Maybe because the exaltations haven't got a thing to do with triplicity rulers? Because perhaps the exaltations have more to do with something older?
Let's really look at joys and exaltations.
Sun is exalted in Aries, ruled by Mars. Oh, wow, in the Thema Aries is the 10th, the Sun is the king, and the 10th is associated with what? And how exactly does the Sun keep power? Sun joys in 9th (the house of the god) and the 9th in the Thema is Pisces (does anyone else see the correleation here between the sign of the fishes and Christianity?) which is ruled by Jupiter, the greater benefic. Sun falls in the exaltation of Saturn, which again makes sense looking at the Thema, since Saturn is like the antethisis of the Sun.
Moon is exalted in Taurus (an Earth sign, for those watching..why? Because without Moon to counter balance Sun, life on Earth wouldn't even exist.) Taurus represents all the little critters that have ever evolved on Earth (how many times in my journies have I been reminded that Taurus rules animials?) Taurus is ruled by Venus, the divine godess, and Taurus in the Thema is the 11th sign...the one that provides all the resources to support the king. Let's be fey and substitute "king" for most dominant species on the planet....
Moon falls in Scorpio, which is the 5th in the Thema. Oh, wow. That's a prolific sign that rules children. And is ruled by Mars. What exactly is the population of humans on the Earth today?
Mercury (aka Hermes, or even Thoth in older texts) is as already described, an hermaphrodite. He is the only planet exalted in an house that he also rules, and Mercury is also everywhere said to represent the rational mind. He joys in the 1st house of Cancer, which is also represented as the primal, or reactive mind (and I'm pretty sure this is confirmed in traditional texts, since we want Merc, Moon, and the ruler of the 12th for mental illness.) Virgo is the 3rd in the Thema...and the third is the what? Neighbors, cousins, the people you are forced to associate with by tribe, and even in modern astrology..the development of the mind/early education. Why does Mercury get the years of rulership from what? I'm messing it up here, but does Moon get to age 4, and then Mercury after? If we wanted to determine prejudice from a chart, what house would we look to?
Venus Joys in the 5th..and in the Thema, the 5th is Scorpio, which rules among other things reproduction. Further, Venus is exalted in the 9th, Pisces, ruled by Jupiter (the planet of what? Er, pregnancy and childbirth.) Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth. Oh, heck yeah. Just in typing this eploratation I'm wondering about what happened to the dinosaurs. What exactly is the population of humans on planet Earth today?
Mars. Ok, Mars is exalted in Capricorn, ruled by Saturn, but it is an Earth sign. Saturn is a malefic, and Mars is a malefic...why of all the exaltations and joys is one malefic (the nature of Mars is to sever and separate) exalted in the house/sign of another. Mars joys in the 6th according to tradition, which in the Thema means that Mars joys in Sagittarius, a sign of Jupiter. Mars is exalted in the 7th house of open enemies and in what degree? A degree that is classified as masculine, dark, and lame.
I need to go to bed. Because I thought I was replying to one idea, and found another instead.
What if, in addition to the birth of humanity, the Thema contains the seeds of humanity's destruction as well?
E
eternalautumn
I know why you called me Morin, and you're wrong. However I was just trying to make a cute little joke; I apologize if it offended you. What I'm really trying to say is that I can see how Chris, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, and most everyone else back to Dorotheus can "see" the doctrine of natural place in the joy scheme. But consensus doesn't make something true, just easy. I don't think it's the correct philosophical lens. Viewing the joy scheme in this alternative way (which happens to agree with [I'm fairly certain] almost all other symbolism) produces something that is more logical, more beautiful, and uses the same basic method for it's determination. I don't even think natural place and the earth west point/water south point alternative triplicity scheme have to cancel each other out necessarily. It just requires looking at the joy scheme in a different way, which happens to be one that goes against the triplicity scheme that we know and love, which happens to be what the article is trying to connect to the joy scheme. Also, I'm aware of my narcissism and the fact that it flows from a void in my soul filled with self-hatred, so pointing it out isn't very effective in hurting me. I thought the smiley face would help indicate the joke. Perhaps you misunderstood.
Perhaps I misunderstood. I find his writing style difficult. My other points still stand.
E
eternalautumn
I just love conversations like this.
As do I.http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099
A fair point.
Do you disagree that the triplicity rulers can be inferred from the joys?
I appreciate your perspective but without some sort of philosophical skeleton, how can we have a precise astrology?
Tell me yours and I'll tell you mine.
But isn't that the best?
Isn't that implied, being the nativity of the world?
I found your entire post quite stimulating. Thanks.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
LikewiseI just love conversations like this.
I started one a while back but then got distracted by trying learn astrology.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099
Useful analogy
Then an Exalted planet in its own kingdom but Cadent is 'fortunate' due to being Exalted
BUT
- due to being Cadent
is nevertheless 'unfortunate' because modified regarding 'strength' and 'power' aka ability to act
1] Sun in 10th, 11th or 12th Houses = Masculine Quadrant
BUT
12th House is Cadent
SO Sun is modified regarding ability to act
so being in a Masculine Quadrant in that case does not exclude Sun from from being 'unfortunate' when Sun is in 12th
When Sun is
2] Sun in Quadrant I and in 10th or 12th Houses and in Masculine Sign
and so in Hayz
and therefore 'considered very competent to act'
YET
12th house is 'unfortunate' and modifies ANY planet's ability to act
SO
Sun is not very competent to act when in 12th and in Masculine Sign
yet Sun is in Hayz DESPITE not being very competent to act
Yet an In-Sect Sun in 12th in Masculine sign is nevertheless Cadent and so is NOT very competent to act
So 'a Planet not in-sect' is a completely different category from 'a Planet Out-of-Sect'
Such as Sun in 12th in a masculine sign
So Sun in 12th in Masculine Sign is a Fortunate Planet and In-Sect yet somehow unable to act - the film analogies are excellent - which film is that?
Albert Timashev
http://astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en
For all interested in ancient astrological techniques
THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE from an article by Russian Astrologer Albert Timashev, which he wrote in 2000:
"Many fundamental techniques and methods of ancient astrology are generally unknown to modern astrologers because they were lost as a result of a scientific revolution of the 17th century which claimed astrology was a pseudo-science.
One fundamental basis of astrology is the system of terms - the division of the ecliptic into 60 unequal sectors by 5 sectors per each sign of the zodiac - and the major Egyptian years directly following from terms"
SOURCE: http://astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en
BobZemco
Well-known member
I see that I have thoroughly confused everyone. Super. Let me see if I can untangle my mess here.
Let's start with the Houses. Some Houses are Fortunate in and of themselves; some are Unfortunate. The Unfortunate Houses are the 4th, 6th, 8th and 12th (and sometimes the 7th depending on context). The 12th House is in and of itself an Unfortunate House. It signifies Sorrow, Loss/Separation, Disease, extended long distance Travel or living outside your home land (including voluntary or forced exile), Imprisonment and Slavery. Another way of looking at it is the 12th House is Your Very Own Personal Hell & House of Horrors. The 12th House is what traps you, ensnares you, holds you back, imprisons you, makes you a slave, and so on. Because that is true, it holds special meaning when Aquarius is rising, because that makes Capricorn the 12th Sign, and Saturn rules both.....with the implication being that you are the cause of your own sorrows and suffering. When you delineate the 12th House, you look at the Sign, and then find the Ruler, because the location of the Ruler, the aspects it makes, and what the Ruler signifies will tell you what you need to know. Of course, I'm talking about an Aries 12th with Mars in Scorpio, Taurus 12th with Venus in Libra, Virgo 12th with Mercury in Gemini and so on. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Sun/Moon since they only have one Sign each. You can add Exaltation to that as well as Domiciles. What if the 12th Ruler is not domiciled? Then you'll have to look at the Dispositor. Taurus 12th, Venus in Cancer, you'll have to look at Moon. What if you have Planets in the 12th? They'll all have the same Dispositor, but rule different Houses, and that's where you'll have to look. Here's where the correct terminology is so critically important to chart delineation. Planets in the same Sign within a 15° span are Assembled. What does that mean? Dearly beloved, we are assembled here today, to bear witness to the union of Fred Flintstone and Betty Rubble.... People assemble for a common purpose, do they not? So, when Planets are Assembled, they have a common purpose, and that's where the idiotic "stellium" in Modern Astrology totally obfuscates the symbolism. You can have two Planets joined by body (conjunct -- another stupid word that destroys the symbolism) and assembled to a 3rd (or 4th) Planet. All those Planets in the 12th --- assembled or not -- will tell the story of how you built or you little comfy Hell, by looking at Sign Ruler and the Houses those Planets rule. I'm guessing you want to know about your Sun in the 12th..... In addition to all the other things I mentioned, the 12th House also signifies Secret Enemies. Sun -- amongst its significations -- represents authority figures and powerful people, governments, government officials, the father in a Day Chart, husbands and so on. The Sun in the 12th generally indicates powerful Secret Enemies. The Sun's Dispositor --- here Mars since Sun is in Aries --- will indicate tell you the who, what and where of those Secret Enemies, and you may have to weigh that against Mars' Dispositor (if Mars is not domiciled) and the House holding Leo, and whatever Planets are in Leo and the Houses they rule (since Sun is their Dispositor). Yes, it can be over-whelming, so you'll have to develop your style of procedure to sort things out. What is Sun's condition here? Sun is Exalted in Aries. So, is Sun Fortunate? Probably -- barring any other problems like Pitted or Azieme Degrees. What will Fortunate Exalted Sun do? Help protect you from your Secret Enemies. Is Sun competent to handle that task? Sun in 12th House is in a Masculine Quadrant, and therefore Sun is in-Sect and therefore Sun is competent to keep your Secret Enemies at bay. But more than that, in addition to being in-Sect, Sun is in a Masculine Sign, and thus in Hayz, and so Sun is very competent to protect you from Secret Enemies. Now....about this Cadent thing...how does that come into play? That's our Planetary Order and Planetary Speed. Sun can make applying aspects to which Planets? Only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.... .....but not from the 12th House. Here you have an Exalted Sun that is very competent, and it would be really, really nice if Sun was applying sextile or trine to Mars, Jupiter or Saturn --- because that would really help and benefit those Planets (since Sun is an Accidental Benefic here).... ...but that ain't gonna happen from the 12th House. Cadent House are weak, but the 12th is the weakest....Sun's applying aspects are almost non-existent (in terms of strength and effectiveness). Now if Sun is applying to Rx Mars, Rx Jupiter or Rx Saturn, that might hurt a bit, but not much since Exalted Sun is in it own Triplicity. uh, so what if Venus was in the 12th House? Well, Venus signifies a few things, including women. What kind of women? Depends on the condition of Venus. This might be a good time to mention Lots. When you're having difficulty sorting out Planets in the 12th (or any other House) and their Dispositors, Lots can help clarify things. Of course you want to cast Lots related to the House in question, although it wouldn't be out of line cast Lots to see which ones fall in the 12th (or the House in question). I'll give you another example, is I have Mars in Aries in the 6th. I got into Astrology because I wanted to know why I kept falling out of the sky, and why I was never really seriously injured (although others were and some died) and other things related to military service. Well, that's the answer: Mars in Aries in the 6th where Mars Rejoices. Get it? Someone asked about Saturn and Joys. Planets Rejoice in the Houses they signify. Venus signifies pleasure, and so Venus Joys in the 5th House, because it is the 5th House --- and not the stupid 8th House -- that represents sex, and also the cinema show, theatre, opera, the symphony, all other arts, restaurants, eateries, taverns, nightclubs and any place where people gather together for enjoyment, plus all public venues in general. Saturn is all about restricting, restraining, shackling, sorrow and so the 12th House is Sorrow, Slavery and Imprisonment (among things) and Saturn loves it there. Mars likes to injure people and destroy things....so he Rejoices in the 6th House. Except Mars is in Aries, Nocturnal, Oriental and such, so Mars is Fortunate, and I just ended up getting teased with repeated injuries, but none being serious or life-threatening (in part due to the benefic rays of Sun and Mercury in Gemini in the 8th), and that's mostly military things, machinery, metal things (especially those made of iron). I hope that straightens out the mess.
BobZemco
Well-known member
I have no idea it ended up getting formatted as one gigantic paragraph. Sorry.
I see that I have thoroughly confused everyone. Super.
Let me see if I can untangle my mess here.
Let's start with the Houses.
Some Houses are Fortunate in and of themselves; some are Unfortunate. The Unfortunate Houses are the 4th, 6th, 8th and 12th (and sometimes the 7th depending on context). The 12th House is in and of itself an Unfortunate House. It signifies Sorrow, Loss/Separation, Disease, extended long distance Travel or living outside your home land (including voluntary or forced exile), Imprisonment and Slavery. Another way of looking at it is the 12th House is Your Very Own Personal Hell & House of Horrors. The 12th House is what traps you, ensnares you, holds you back, imprisons you, makes you a slave, and so on.
Because that is true, it holds special meaning when Aquarius is rising, because that makes Capricorn the 12th Sign, and Saturn rules both.....with the implication being that you are the cause of your own sorrows and suffering.
When you delineate the 12th House, you look at the Sign, and then find the Ruler, because the location of the Ruler, the aspects it makes, and what the Ruler signifies will tell you what you need to know. Of course, I'm talking about an Aries 12th with Mars in Scorpio, Taurus 12th with Venus in Libra, Virgo 12th with Mercury in Gemini and so on. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Sun/Moon since they only have one Sign each. You can add Exaltation to that as well as Domiciles.
What if the 12th Ruler is not domiciled? Then you'll have to look at the Dispositor. Taurus 12th, Venus in Cancer, you'll have to look at Moon. What if you have Planets in the 12th? They'll all have the same Dispositor, but rule different Houses, and that's where you'll have to look.
Here's where the correct terminology is so critically important to chart delineation. Planets in the same Sign within a 15° span are Assembled. What does that mean? Dearly beloved, we are assembled here today, to bear witness to the union of Fred Flintstone and Betty Rubble.... People assemble for a common purpose, do they not? So, when Planets are Assembled, they have a common purpose, and that's where the idiotic "stellium" in Modern Astrology totally obfuscates the symbolism. You can have two Planets joined by body (conjunct -- another stupid word that destroys the symbolism) and assembled to a 3rd (or 4th) Planet. All those Planets in the 12th --- assembled or not -- will tell the story of how you built or you little comfy Hell, by looking at Sign Ruler and the Houses those Planets rule.
I'm guessing you want to know about your Sun in the 12th.....
In addition to all the other things I mentioned, the 12th House also signifies Secret Enemies. Sun -- amongst its significations -- represents authority figures and powerful people, governments, government officials, the father in a Day Chart, husbands and so on. The Sun in the 12th generally indicates powerful Secret Enemies.
The Sun's Dispositor --- here Mars since Sun is in Aries --- will indicate tell you the who, what and where of those Secret Enemies, and you may have to weigh that against Mars' Dispositor (if Mars is not domiciled) and the House holding Leo, and whatever Planets are in Leo and the Houses they rule (since Sun is their Dispositor).
Yes, it can be over-whelming, so you'll have to develop your style of procedure to sort things out.
What is Sun's condition here? Sun is Exalted in Aries. So, is Sun Fortunate? Probably -- barring any other problems like Pitted or Azieme Degrees.
What will Fortunate Exalted Sun do? Help protect you from your Secret Enemies.
Is Sun competent to handle that task? Sun in 12th House is in a Masculine Quadrant, and therefore Sun is in-Sect and therefore Sun is competent to keep your Secret Enemies at bay.
But more than that, in addition to being in-Sect, Sun is in a Masculine Sign, and thus in Hayz, and so Sun is very competent to protect you from Secret Enemies.
Now....about this Cadent thing...how does that come into play?
Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn
That's our Planetary Order and Planetary Speed. Sun can make applying aspects to which Planets? Only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn....
.....but not from the 12th House.
Here you have an Exalted Sun that is very competent, and it would be really, really nice if Sun was applying sextile or trine to Mars, Jupiter or Saturn --- because that would really help and benefit those Planets (since Sun is an Accidental Benefic here)....
...but that ain't gonna happen from the 12th House.
Cadent House are weak, but the 12th is the weakest....Sun's applying aspects are almost non-existent (in terms of strength and effectiveness).
Now if Sun is applying to Rx Mars, Rx Jupiter or Rx Saturn, that might hurt a bit, but not much since Exalted Sun is in it own Triplicity.
uh, so what if Venus was in the 12th House? Well, Venus signifies a few things, including women. What kind of women? Depends on the condition of Venus.
This might be a good time to mention Lots. When you're having difficulty sorting out Planets in the 12th (or any other House) and their Dispositors, Lots can help clarify things.
Of course you want to cast Lots related to the House in question, although it wouldn't be out of line cast Lots to see which ones fall in the 12th (or the House in question).
I'll give you another example, is I have Mars in Aries in the 6th. I got into Astrology because I wanted to know why I kept falling out of the sky, and why I was never really seriously injured (although others were and some died) and other things related to military service.
Well, that's the answer: Mars in Aries in the 6th where Mars Rejoices.
Get it?
Someone asked about Saturn and Joys.
Planets Rejoice in the Houses they signify. Venus signifies pleasure, and so Venus Joys in the 5th House, because it is the 5th House --- and not the stupid 8th House -- that represents sex, and also the cinema show, theatre, opera, the symphony, all other arts, restaurants, eateries, taverns, nightclubs and any place where people gather together for enjoyment, plus all public venues in general.
Saturn is all about restricting, restraining, shackling, sorrow and so the 12th House is Sorrow, Slavery and Imprisonment (among things) and Saturn loves it there.
Mars likes to injure people and destroy things....so he Rejoices in the 6th House. Except Mars is in Aries, Nocturnal, Oriental and such, so Mars is Fortunate, and I just ended up getting teased with repeated injuries, but none being serious or life-threatening (in part due to the benefic rays of Sun and Mercury in Gemini in the 8th), and that's mostly military things, machinery, metal things (especially those made of iron).
I hope that straightens out the mess.
I see that I have thoroughly confused everyone. Super.
Let me see if I can untangle my mess here.
Let's start with the Houses.
Some Houses are Fortunate in and of themselves; some are Unfortunate. The Unfortunate Houses are the 4th, 6th, 8th and 12th (and sometimes the 7th depending on context). The 12th House is in and of itself an Unfortunate House. It signifies Sorrow, Loss/Separation, Disease, extended long distance Travel or living outside your home land (including voluntary or forced exile), Imprisonment and Slavery. Another way of looking at it is the 12th House is Your Very Own Personal Hell & House of Horrors. The 12th House is what traps you, ensnares you, holds you back, imprisons you, makes you a slave, and so on.
Because that is true, it holds special meaning when Aquarius is rising, because that makes Capricorn the 12th Sign, and Saturn rules both.....with the implication being that you are the cause of your own sorrows and suffering.
When you delineate the 12th House, you look at the Sign, and then find the Ruler, because the location of the Ruler, the aspects it makes, and what the Ruler signifies will tell you what you need to know. Of course, I'm talking about an Aries 12th with Mars in Scorpio, Taurus 12th with Venus in Libra, Virgo 12th with Mercury in Gemini and so on. Obviously, that doesn't apply to Sun/Moon since they only have one Sign each. You can add Exaltation to that as well as Domiciles.
What if the 12th Ruler is not domiciled? Then you'll have to look at the Dispositor. Taurus 12th, Venus in Cancer, you'll have to look at Moon. What if you have Planets in the 12th? They'll all have the same Dispositor, but rule different Houses, and that's where you'll have to look.
Here's where the correct terminology is so critically important to chart delineation. Planets in the same Sign within a 15° span are Assembled. What does that mean? Dearly beloved, we are assembled here today, to bear witness to the union of Fred Flintstone and Betty Rubble.... People assemble for a common purpose, do they not? So, when Planets are Assembled, they have a common purpose, and that's where the idiotic "stellium" in Modern Astrology totally obfuscates the symbolism. You can have two Planets joined by body (conjunct -- another stupid word that destroys the symbolism) and assembled to a 3rd (or 4th) Planet. All those Planets in the 12th --- assembled or not -- will tell the story of how you built or you little comfy Hell, by looking at Sign Ruler and the Houses those Planets rule.
I'm guessing you want to know about your Sun in the 12th.....
In addition to all the other things I mentioned, the 12th House also signifies Secret Enemies. Sun -- amongst its significations -- represents authority figures and powerful people, governments, government officials, the father in a Day Chart, husbands and so on. The Sun in the 12th generally indicates powerful Secret Enemies.
The Sun's Dispositor --- here Mars since Sun is in Aries --- will indicate tell you the who, what and where of those Secret Enemies, and you may have to weigh that against Mars' Dispositor (if Mars is not domiciled) and the House holding Leo, and whatever Planets are in Leo and the Houses they rule (since Sun is their Dispositor).
Yes, it can be over-whelming, so you'll have to develop your style of procedure to sort things out.
What is Sun's condition here? Sun is Exalted in Aries. So, is Sun Fortunate? Probably -- barring any other problems like Pitted or Azieme Degrees.
What will Fortunate Exalted Sun do? Help protect you from your Secret Enemies.
Is Sun competent to handle that task? Sun in 12th House is in a Masculine Quadrant, and therefore Sun is in-Sect and therefore Sun is competent to keep your Secret Enemies at bay.
But more than that, in addition to being in-Sect, Sun is in a Masculine Sign, and thus in Hayz, and so Sun is very competent to protect you from Secret Enemies.
Now....about this Cadent thing...how does that come into play?
Moon Mercury Venus Sun Mars Jupiter Saturn
That's our Planetary Order and Planetary Speed. Sun can make applying aspects to which Planets? Only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn....
.....but not from the 12th House.
Here you have an Exalted Sun that is very competent, and it would be really, really nice if Sun was applying sextile or trine to Mars, Jupiter or Saturn --- because that would really help and benefit those Planets (since Sun is an Accidental Benefic here)....
...but that ain't gonna happen from the 12th House.
Cadent House are weak, but the 12th is the weakest....Sun's applying aspects are almost non-existent (in terms of strength and effectiveness).
Now if Sun is applying to Rx Mars, Rx Jupiter or Rx Saturn, that might hurt a bit, but not much since Exalted Sun is in it own Triplicity.
uh, so what if Venus was in the 12th House? Well, Venus signifies a few things, including women. What kind of women? Depends on the condition of Venus.
This might be a good time to mention Lots. When you're having difficulty sorting out Planets in the 12th (or any other House) and their Dispositors, Lots can help clarify things.
Of course you want to cast Lots related to the House in question, although it wouldn't be out of line cast Lots to see which ones fall in the 12th (or the House in question).
I'll give you another example, is I have Mars in Aries in the 6th. I got into Astrology because I wanted to know why I kept falling out of the sky, and why I was never really seriously injured (although others were and some died) and other things related to military service.
Well, that's the answer: Mars in Aries in the 6th where Mars Rejoices.
Get it?
Someone asked about Saturn and Joys.
Planets Rejoice in the Houses they signify. Venus signifies pleasure, and so Venus Joys in the 5th House, because it is the 5th House --- and not the stupid 8th House -- that represents sex, and also the cinema show, theatre, opera, the symphony, all other arts, restaurants, eateries, taverns, nightclubs and any place where people gather together for enjoyment, plus all public venues in general.
Saturn is all about restricting, restraining, shackling, sorrow and so the 12th House is Sorrow, Slavery and Imprisonment (among things) and Saturn loves it there.
Mars likes to injure people and destroy things....so he Rejoices in the 6th House. Except Mars is in Aries, Nocturnal, Oriental and such, so Mars is Fortunate, and I just ended up getting teased with repeated injuries, but none being serious or life-threatening (in part due to the benefic rays of Sun and Mercury in Gemini in the 8th), and that's mostly military things, machinery, metal things (especially those made of iron).
I hope that straightens out the mess.
BobZemco
Well-known member
Think about the word "Sect" and its connotations.
A Sect is like a Faction, which is a group of people acting together within a larger group, like a clan, a clique, a cabal, a bloc (like the East Bloc -- a faction, a sect, sub-set of Europe), a band of people, a crew, etc etc etc.
Astrology is based on ordered hierarchies, like charts, and then groups of Planets like the Nocturnal Planets and the Diurnal Planets, the Masculine Planes and the Feminine Planes, the Cold Planets and the Hot Planets, and so on.
So you have two factions: the Diurnal Planets ---the Day Crew, the Day Shift, the Day Bloc, the Day Clan, the Day Shift, and then you have the Nocturnal Planets -- the Night Crew, Night Shift, Night Cabal, Night Bloc, Night Clan and such.
Note that each Faction has a Light: Sun for Day; Moon for Night, and because of that, they have different conditions to meet.
The Planets in each Faction/Sect operate best when they are similarly situated, meaning the Day Planets are Above Earth with the Sun, in Masculine Signs/Houses and too the Night Planets when they are Below Earth in a Day Chart, but Above Earth in a Night Chart and in Feminine Signs/Houses.
Diurnal Planets like to be in Diurnal Signs, which are the same thing as Masculine Signs. Nocturnal Planets like to be in Nocturnal Signs, which is the same thing as Feminine Signs.
If you understand futboll, then a Planet in-Sect is like being in the "B" League. A Planet in Hayz is like being in the "A" League. And if the Planet is in Hayz, and also in a Masculine Quadrant/Degree, it's like the Planet is also on the National Team, competing in the World Cup.
A Planet (or Light) that is not in-Sect is not very competent and being Out-of-Sect makes it totally incompetent.
I think you might be confusing the concepts.
Sect tells you if a Planet (or Light) has the potential to perform the task(s) given to it in the Native's Chart.
The potential to act, is not the same as acting/performing.
Whether a Planet is Fortunate/Unfortunate will tell you if the Planet will actually perform.
As an analogy, think of you being in Hayz, you're very competent at what you do, be it a web-designer, engineer, chef, hair-dresser.....
....but because you are Unfortunate, you can't find a job, or there are long delays in finding a job (and then perhaps not in your career-field).
Think of the Planet representing Children in a Native's Chart. The Planet is in-Sect or in-Hayz and so competent, and therefore has the potential to produce Children for the Native, but because the Planet is Unfortunate, there are many delays, difficulties, problems in having Children, possibly to the extent that the Native might not ever have Children.
And you could say the same for Wealth, Health, Career, Travel and any other Topics.
I disagree with the Hellenistic concept, but that might be because I don't believe it is stated very clearly.
You have this Exalted in Hayz Sun in the 12th, and it's hampered to the extent that Sun cannot share his gifts with any other Planets, due to the fact that he is in the 12th House.
An Aries Sun in Hayz applying to the trine of Mars, Jupiter or Saturn in Leo would be a beautiful thing, but not from the 12th House....that just isn't going to happen. That trine will be so weak as to be barely noticeable in its effects.
Uh, okay, but that is exactly what you'd want an Exalted in-Hayz Sun in the 12th House to do --- direct its energy at others ---- like your Secret Enemies to keep them at bay and keep them from harming you.
That's no different than Aries Mars Rejoicing in the 6th protecting me from serious injuries.
Let me ask you this: someone with a dignified Planet in-Sect or in Hayz in the 9th, do you think the Native is likely to be involved in Scientology? Or part of a religious or ideological cult (like a terrorist group)?
Not likely.
I'm just not seeing that at all.
I've done way too many Forensic Charts.
Not only that, but in my own Chart, Venus is in Cancer in the 9th House and very obviously ruling the Libra 12th House...
....can you say "expatriate?"
Sure, I knew you could.
I've spent a good chunk of my adult life living outside of the US -- sometimes involuntarily due to military service; the rest of the time voluntarily -- like a self-imposed exile.
I'm guessing that's a typo and should read "6th" instead of "5th."
I have to categorically reject that.
One of the meanings often over-looked is Masculine/Feminine.
It has a secondary meaning of Active (Masculine) and Passive (Feminine). When you're judging a chart, there are 4 possibilities of Gender with Quadrants, Houses, Signs and Degrees.
A Planet sitting in 3 out of 4 (or all 4) Passive markers is going to be the recipient of action. I see that all the time in homicide charts, where the victim is often Cadent and in square/opposition to a Malefic or the significator of the perpetrator.
On the contrary, when a Planet is sitting in 3 of 4 (or all 4) Active markers (again Quadrant, House, Sign and Degree) that Planet will be the initiator of action, or the Planet that exerts the most action.
And when its middling --- any 2 out of 4 --- then the Planet is both the initiator of action, as well as the recipient of action.
That's an excellent example of why we read and compare texts to find how doctrines become corrupted.
The Arabs refer to that as "Halb." That's easy for me to remember, because the German word "halb" is "half." Not to get side-tracked, but I seriously doubt that's a coincidence. For one language or the other, it is a loan-word and it was picked up through trade.
So....a Planet in its "half" is in that half of the chart -- North/South Hemisphere -- where it ought to be with its Sect ---- faction, group, crew etc etc etc.
For the Arabs, a Planet that was in Halb --- in Sect --- was also Hayyiz (in Hayz) when it was in a Sign of its same Gender.
Then the Persians and later Medievals (like Bonatti) added the House conditions, and I accept that for now, but ultimately I'll most likely reject it, because I don't believe Houses confer any power...or take away power.
I believe that to be a concept that was mangled with the re-introduction of House Systems.
In other words, the 12th House has no powers at all, but the 12th Sign does, and due to the fact that the 12th Sign is the 12th Sign, and that it is falling away from the Angle (Cadent) and it is in aversion to the Ascending Sign is what reduces the strength of the 12th Sign, in exactly the same way that the 9th, 3rd and 6th Signs are also falling away from the angles, except that the 9th Sign trines the Ascending Sign and so has some power...the most power of all the Cadent Signs, followed by the 3rd Sign which sextiles the Ascendant giving the Sign -- but not the House -- some power, and then the 6th and 12th Signs which are in aversion and very weak with the 12th Sign being the weakest.
I see the function of House Systems as showing the extent Signs influence a given Topic. That is obvious when you see the 8th House "bleeding over" into the 9th House and encompassing in part the 8th and 9th Signs, which is an indicator of death in a foreign land, or at the hands of a foreigner etc.
That makes no sense.
If that's true, then I should be rich beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, because Jupiter rules my Sagittarius 2nd House/Sign.
What's Jupiter's major malfunction?
Direct Jupiter is in Pisces.
Jupiter is harmed by Saturn? Not possible since Aquarius Saturn is in aversion to Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by Mars? Again, impossible since Aries Mars is in aversion to Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by the trine from Cancer Venus? Yeah, right. No, Venus aids Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by the square from Sun? No, Jupiter receives Sun by Triplicity and Face.
Jupiter is harmed by Pisces Moon joining him? No.
Jupiter is in aversion to the 2nd Sign and/or the Ascendant? No, Jupiter trines the Ascendant and squares the 2nd Sign.
The what's the problem, why aren't I sitting on mountains of cash?
Because Jupiter is not in-Sect.
It's a Day Chart and is Jupiter sunning himself at Lloret de Mar on the Costa Brava? No, he's frigging freezing Below Earth.
Not only is Jupiter not in-Sect, but Jupiter is in a Feminine Sign and a Feminine Degree.....the only saving grace here is Jupiter is in a Masculine Quadrant.
Is Jupiter competent to manage my financial affairs? No way.
Jupiter is barely competent...I'll always have money in my pocket and a corrugated tin roof over my head, but nothing more.
I can't really buy into that, because that isn't seen in charts.
As far as the twilight thing, if you can't see Sun on the Horizon, it's a Night Chart.
That would be the long and short of it.
There are several components that determine a Planet's overall condition.
If you want, you can start by determining if a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate, because that in part will help you determine if the Planet is inclined to Good, or to Evil.
I don't really care for those terms any more than I care for Benefic/Malefic, but taken in the proper context, it does accurately convey what is taking place.
Benefic = Easy Street
Malefic = Hard Road
A Fortunate Benefic and you'll get to the end of the Rainbow in a chauffeured limousine.
A Fortunate Malefic and you'll still get to the end of the Rainbow, but you'll have to walk....up-hill both ways....in the snow...while raining...and being chased by lions and tigers and bears.
An Unfortunate Benefic and bad things come easy: excess, over-indulgence, hedonism and such.
An Unfortunate Malefic and you get bad things^2 (squared). Your home just doesn't burn down....it burns down, falls over, sinks into a swamp, gets eaten by rats (or I guess swamp rats) and then swallowed by a sink-hole and then a meteor lands and destroys the rest of it, and then you go to jail for not paying property taxes.
And then having made those determinations, you look at the Planet's ability to perform --- its competence --- it's Sect status.
I have a Benefic -- Jupiter --- that is very Fortunate, but then totally incompetent because Jupiter is not in-Sect and not in a Masculine Sign.
Jupiter in my chart is like the Black Adder or Mr. Bean.
Aries Sun in the 12th in that chart is in-Sect in a Masculine Quadrant = Competent --- and then in a Masculine Sign = Very Competent (and if also a Masculine Degree then Highly Competent), to perform the task it has been given, which appears to be protecting the Native from Secret Enemies.
The Sun is Fortunate, and very Competent, but badly placed in the chart, and the only thing that does -- being in the 12th --- is bar Sun from sharing his strength and gifts with other Planets, so just as Sun cannot aid or help any Planet through an aspect, Sun cannot harm any Planet either.
Hope that clears things up.
tsmall
Premium Member
What about number of degrees past an angle? This is probably a stupid question, but isn't that where the idea of the house systems came from? A planet more than 5* past up to 30* past an angle is "falling away" from it? And does that harm the planet's ability to function? As in oomph, or energy?
Second stupid question, though it relates to the first...what about a planet (let's say Sun) that is more than 5* above the ASC, but in the ascending sign? For example, Sun in the 3rd degree of Libra
Sun is in fall and "cadent" but otherwise (masculine sign, degree, quadrant) playing in the World Cup?I don't want to speak for others, but for myself I find that it isn't always easy, even though I completely understand your post about sect, joys, fortunate, unfortunate, what have you. Things like this...
Ok, the planet representing children in my chart is Saturn (5th house/sign is Aquarius) and Saturn is retrograde in Taurus in the 8th degree (Azemene) and 8th sign. About the only thing Saturn has going for him is that he is above the horizon in a day chart, and in masculine degree. Otherwise, he's in a feminine sign and quadrant, in a very unfortunate place, and this very unfortunate place is associated with childbirth. Just going by that it would be easy to come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to have children since Saturn is about as incapable as a planet can get. Yet I have three.
Why? Could it be (and I'm not being sarcastic) because I have Moon in Pisces, a very fruitful sign (and I am a woman, so we would expect Moon to be involved in fertility in some way) and ASC along with Jupiter (the planet naturally related to children) in Libra, a rather fruitful sign. Taurus, where Saturn finds himself, is also a rather fruitful sign. Venus applies to and receives Saturn by trine and getting back to the original topic of this thread Venus joys in the 5th, however it is from Virgo~her fall and a barren sign~ and Venus is in the 12th sign. So that should be no help. Mars applies by trine to Saturn (though Venus gets there first, so frustration.) Mars is exalted, but that's about the only thing going for him as he is in halb though not on the chart's "team" and in a pivot (4th sign) yet in feminine quadrant, sign (masculine degree though) as well as being more than 5* past the IC. Mars is on the "opposite team" so that should be a further hindrance, right? The nature of Mars is to sever and separate.
All of which to say is that having lived it I can almost see how I have been fruitful seven times but have three children. But I can't see it well enough to be able to apply it to another chart. Because Saturn shouldn't be able to deliver (pun intended) anything.
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DreamingTheSeas
Well-known member
So in a Nocturnal chart, 5th house(sign) in Aries a Masculine Sign, ruler Mars a Masculine planet is in Hayz, in (Scorpio a Feminine sign) 12th house can still give children. Right?
In a daychart, 6th house(sign) in Libra a masculine Sign, ruler Venus a feminine planet , in (Aries a Masculine sign) 12th house can not benefit health.
In a daychart, 6th house(sign) in Libra a masculine Sign, ruler Venus a feminine planet , in (Aries a Masculine sign) 12th house can not benefit health.
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BobZemco
Well-known member
No, there always was an House System. I have no idea what it was, except that it would have been a time-based system similar to the one used by al-Qabisi (for trivia, his Latinzed name was Alcabitius).
Some of the texts that have been translated make reference to star groups being in, uh, for lack of a better word, a "Temple." This star or star group rising in this "Temple" and so on.
Same with Planets: udu.idim.sag.us "appearing" (that's the word in the text) in this "Temple" and things like that.
They knew then, what we know now, and that is it's absurd and illogical that one Sign would have sway over a particular area of the Native's life. There's some spill-over into other areas. How much? That's what the House System would show.
Unfortunately, the Dark Ages ruins everything, and knowledge is lost.
For a long time, not only did they forget how to calculate the House System, they forgot how to calculate the Midheaven as well. I suspect the "Chaldeans" were actually Akkadian intelligentsia who ultimately migrated there after the decline the Assyrian Kingdom, and being all in one place, they were able to reconstruct some of the math and other concepts, and it isn't too long after that when they start calculating the Midheaven again.
From that point on, they try to re-invent the wheel, and too many wheels get re-invented and not enough of them work (especially the square wheels).
Anyway, the idea of power comes from the fact that the Signs move clock-wise in the chart, and so the Ascending Sign -- the 1st Sign -- is pushing the 12th Sign out of the way, and that's where you get the symbolism that Angular Signs are strong, and Cadent Signs are weak.
On the opposite side, the Descendant -- the 7th Sign -- is pushing the 6th Sign out of the way.
Whether you're using an MC or the 10th Sign doesn't matter, since both are moving clock-wise and the 10th Sign is pushing the 9th Sign out of the way, just as the 4th Sign is pushing the 3rd Sign out of the way.
And even though the it is usually translated as "Angles" the actual words or connotations are "Corners" and so these Cadent Signs are falling away from the "Corners" --- the Angles.
That's why Angular Houses are strong and signify beginnings, starting something new, a foundation etc etc, and why the Cadent Houses are weak and represent those things that are either coming to an end or changing, and then obviously the symbolism of the Succeedent Signs/Houses is that they are behind the Angular Houses, so that by the time the Succeedent Sign moves clock-wise to Corner/Angle it signifies something that has been on-going, in-progress, continuous and what not.
Then of course the Cadent Signs moving clock-wise eventually come to the Corners/Angles and so the circle/cycle is complete.
Bearing that in mind, the idea of the 5°/30° thing was created to compensate for the fact that they did not have an House System.
What I would suggest is that if you are using an House System, then abandon the 5°/30° Rule.
If you are using Whole Sign, then I recommend using the 5°/30° Rule
If you are using True Equal House and not Stupid Equal House, then I believe I would be inclined to apply the 5°/30° Rule there as well.
As far as "energy" I think that's a concept that was grossly misunderstood and not translated well over the course of time, because experience and reality prove otherwise.
The Houses in and of themselves are powerless.....meaning the Houses have no special powers and do not act on either the Sign or the Planets.
Think of roads, streets or highways....they are the same as the Houses.
What special power does a road have? None.
A car, truck, lorry, motorcycle on a road is the same as a Planet in an House.
But....aren't there roads that you prefer? Roads that are maintained better than others? Roads that have less traffic than others?
Aren't there roads you'd rather not be on?
Same with Houses. Some Houses you want to be in, and some you'd rather avoid altogether.
The power is inherent to the Sign and its relationship to other Signs in the chart.
The 6th and 12th Signs are weak in power, not because they are the 6th and 12th Houses, rather because they are the 6th and 12th Signs, and because they do not aspect the Ascending Sign which is where the power in the chart is.
The 1st Sign is so powerful, it is pushing all of the remaining eleven Signs clock-wise around the chart.
If the 1st Sign is the engine of the train, then the 12th Sign is the caboose.
Is it the Engine that pulls the train, or is it the caboose that pushes the train?
Yes, the 3rd Sign is Cadent, but it also sextiles the Ascending Sign and so the Ascending Sign can give/share some power, albeit it weakly, since it is a sextile, and so the 3rd Sign is stronger than the 6th Sign, and much stronger than the 12th Sign.
Likewise, the 9th Sign is Cadent, but it trines the Ascending Sign, and since a trine is more powerful than a sextile, the 9th Sign is stronger than the 3rd Sign, much stronger than the 6th Sign (in aversion to the Ascending Sign), and an helluva lot stronger than the 12th Sign (also in aversion to the Ascending Sign).
What about the Ascendant and the Midheaven?
I don't know. Those are Chart Points. There's nothing there but empty space. You'd be hard-pressed to suggest that they have power, because then you'd have to say the Head/Tail have power, and they don't -- since they are empty points in space. However, that doesn't mean a Planet cannot be harmed or aided by being in a particular point in space. Also you'd have to say that Lots have power, and they don't, since they are chart points as well.
So it isn't the Houses that have power, it's the Signs, and that power is derived from their relationship to the Ascendant Sign.
One other thing you'd need to look at is what is the Planet doing?
Planets joined or assembled in the 12th Sign, yes, something is happening there, but applying aspects they make are virtually useless, but...if a Planet is applying in aspect to a Planet in the 12th, there's going to be something happening there.
Second stupid question, though it relates to the first...what about a planet (let's say Sun) that is more than 5* above the ASC, but in the ascending sign? For example, Sun in the 3rd degree of Libra
Uh, I like to cook. I find it very relaxing and therapeutic. I especially like sauces and gravies, and things a garde manger would make like dressings for salads, condiments (like garlic mayonnaise) and glazes for cakes and pastries.
Lots of recipes on the internet, and as you peruse them looking at the ingredients used.... potentially.....and that's the key.....potentially they sound really tasty.
So I follow the directions hoping this potentiality is realized, and I end up with something that I would be embarrassed to feed to a maggot.
You have a Planet that is capable of producing results, and those results will be good or bad depending on whether or not the Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate.
You're actually the best qualified to make the particular judgment here, and this would also be a good opportunity to test some of the doctrines related to the 5°/30° Rule.
Aside from that, you already know I'd say Sun is in the 12th and capable of failing spectacularly from protecting you from Secret Enemies.
Well, there are very few things that cause total denial in a chart.
We make objective judgments based on the indications of the testimonies that we see. When the testimonies, or indicators or whatever you want to call them are overwhelmingly positive, then it is more than just a mere promise in the chart, it's practically a certainty, and the implication is that the Native has a fair degree of control over whatever topic your delineating that has such overwhelmingly positive indicators.
When the testimonies are mixed, that is not a denial, rather it falls more into the realm of a "promise" and the Native has less say in the matter.
Even when the indicators appear to be negative, it still isn't a total denial, rather it's something that is not within the Native's control, and it will be very difficult to attain whatever it is.
For total denial, you're typically talking about Feral Planets, a Feral Planet or Void of Course Planet in the Topic House and then the Ruler of that House is Combust, or sitting between Saturn and Mars (besieged) or in aversion, or aspects that don't perfect, or something like that.
For children, meaning the Native having children and we'll limit this to biological children, you are looking at the Ascendant, Planets in the Ascendant, the Ascendant Ruler, Planets in the 5th Sign/House and then the Rulers, and also the Dispositor of the Ascendant Ruler/5th Sign/House Ruler.
You're looking at the testimonies for all of them, and then basing your judgment on that.
When you are looking specifically at your children and their lives, and in particular your 1st Born, then you focus on the 5th Sign/House Ruler (the 7th Sign for the 2nd Born and the 9th Sign for the 3rd Born).
It's probably best to print the chart and turn it, or re-draw the chart on paper with turned Houses since you'd be using derived-Houses to delineate your children's lives (at least in part).
I just recently posted something showing two different methods for childbirth using Profections and Solar Returns with Princess Diana's Chart.
I showed how to use the 8th House for William (I think it was) and then the Lot of Conception for Harry, and then just for fun, went back and showed how to use the Lot of Conception on William.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
For those who require a link to the two different methods for childbirth using Profections and Solar Returns with Princess Diana's Chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=485551&postcount=21
tsmall
Premium Member
Thanks again Bob. Once more you have given me something to think about.
No kidding. Although I might be willing to say that this particular Sun is at least capable of mitigating the damage those secret enemies can cause. Since I know someone with Jupiter in Sagittarius, the 12th sign but 11th house who was also recently beset by secret enemies...what I'm starting to see is that it is indeed a confluence, or at least a need to blend the idea of both, correct?
The idea I'm thinking of most for this is that it is helpful to have benefics with potential in "bad" houses because they help to protect the native from the things associate with those houses, even though they may not be able to do much else.
All right. Do out of sign applications count? Or what if the planet applying is also cadent?
Every time you post about Feral planets I freak out a little. I spent about six months thinking that one through because there was a chart...Bing Crosby's son if I remember correctly...
I think feral planets would deserve another thread though.
No kidding. Although I might be willing to say that this particular Sun is at least capable of mitigating the damage those secret enemies can cause. Since I know someone with Jupiter in Sagittarius, the 12th sign but 11th house who was also recently beset by secret enemies...what I'm starting to see is that it is indeed a confluence, or at least a need to blend the idea of both, correct?
The idea I'm thinking of most for this is that it is helpful to have benefics with potential in "bad" houses because they help to protect the native from the things associate with those houses, even though they may not be able to do much else.
All right. Do out of sign applications count? Or what if the planet applying is also cadent?
Every time you post about Feral planets I freak out a little. I spent about six months thinking that one through because there was a chart...Bing Crosby's son if I remember correctly...
I think feral planets would deserve another thread though.
E
eternalautumn
This thread got slightly hijacked. Apologies, byjove! 
byjove
Account Closed
This thread got slightly hijacked. Apologies, byjove!
...
I have just finished reading the updates...I think there is a considerable amount of information on the strength and weaknesses of Joys - and related dignities and debilities. Anyone searching for that information will find a wealth of info to work with.
One issue I find with researching these details is that there appears to be no end. You drop the stone into the well and you never hear it hit anything. I think 50% of this is knowledge and experience but the other 50% is subjective - which school of thought do you work with? If you use them all, you surely arrive at modern astrology anyway?
tsmall
Premium Member
...
I think there is a considerable amount of information on the strength and weaknesses of Joys - and related dignities and debilities. Anyone searching for that information will find a wealth of info to work with.
One issue I find with researching these details is that there appears to be no end. You drop the stone into the well and you never hear it hit anything. I think 50% of this is knowledge and experience but the other 50% is subjective - which school of thought do you work with? If you use them all, you surely arrive at modern astrology anyway?
I doubt it. Both about being able to find delineative info on the joys, and getting back around to modern astrology. Not because modern astrology can't work, but perhaps because there is a way it can work better, by understanding the underpinnings.
To get back to the original query, regarding the strength of planetary joys, I did discover this interesting tidbit.
In Dykes’ IA, there is a quote from Abu Mashar cited as from the Abbreviation of the Great Introduction; “On the Impotence of the Stars.” Astrology is a language, no?
There is a difference between impotence and misfortune. This passage leads the reader to the idea that joy surpasses unempowered. Which could be why Mars, though cadent in the 6th, does not lack effectiveness in a chart. Nor Sun in 9th, Moon in 3rd, or Saturn in 12th. Misfortune is not the same as impotent.
Further evidence that sometimes cadent planets are infused with the ability to act?
If we follow this line of thought, what we are looking at re: the planetary joys is a way to be able to over come disempowerment. That wouldn't necessarily mean that we don't want to consider the planet's condition, but rather we want to look at what impedes the planet from perfecting it's significations, and then consider if being in joy is going to do it.
byjove
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Well the original query didn't ask about cadent planets at all, it was where in the ranks would joy fit.
While I appreciate the giants of the past, that quote is a great example of the ambiguity and elusiveness of some past authors. No doubt a common rebuttal would be that 'we don't understand' if we don't agree. No, I just don't use that approach or text.
While I appreciate the giants of the past, that quote is a great example of the ambiguity and elusiveness of some past authors. No doubt a common rebuttal would be that 'we don't understand' if we don't agree. No, I just don't use that approach or text.
byjove
Account Closed
This was the OP if anyone has forgotten or to keep on topic.