Strength of Planetary Joys

Hi,

I did a search for "joys" in all the threads and got nothing, perhaps it's been phrased differently?

Do many modern astrologers here use the joys? How strong do you consider the planetary joys?

e.g.
Domicile
exaltation
joy / triplicity
term
face

something like this? I've just come across a bounty - my 1st ruler which has only two aspects, both of which are strong and harsh, is actually in joy...so 1st ruler in joy opposing an exalted planet and both square a third planet. Many the chart ruler has some saving grace......

I observe planetary Joys and consider them to be important elements in a chart.

There are a lot of "Joys" from what I've read. By Joys do you mean this?

h1 - Saturn
h2 - Jupiter
h3 - Mars
h4 - Sun
h5 - Venus
h6 - Mercury
h7 - Moon
h8 - Saturn
h9 - Jupiter
h10 - Mars
h11 - Sun
h12 - Venus

...Probably not, because there are a billion house-based Joy systems. I've heard Venus is in the 12th and Saturn in both the 1st and 8th so I inferred this.

Do you mean the first paragraph of this? I can hardly read that. Does Venus Joy Saturn only in Venus's signs or also in Saturn's signs? "Also when the Moon or Mars are in their respective Signs or Triplicities." ...What? Also, aren't triplicities only supposed to apply to the day/night rulers of triplicites, such as the Sun in Saggi or the Moon in Cappy, not Jupiter or the Moon in Scorpio?

Well in the title I have planetary joys, and I could be wrong but I thought there was only one dominant system today and I have only witnessed one used by traditional astrologers - the one William Lilly uses.


Planet Joy
Mercury 1st
Moon 3rd
Venus 5th
Mars 6th
Sun 9th
Jupiter 11th
Saturn 12th

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1e.html

Yes, I adhere to the traditional Joys that byjove listed above.

wow we're typing and responding within the same minute lol

I was just about to edit my previous post and ask you how high a dignity do you consider it? Maybe not on par with domicile, maybe not exaltation, maybe on rank with triplicity or what do you think?

In special cases these can overlap. For instance, I have Mercury in Virgo in the 1st House. It's Rx though.

How many points is a Joy?

Lilly proposed certain Houses as joys for the planets too. For example Saturn rejoices in the First House, because "he is the first among the planets" (according to the Chaldean Order). Hellenic Astrology featured a different, House-based system, now recognised due to recent translations of ancient works. Rarely used in modern astrology.

Click to expand...

http://www.astrologycom.com/glossj.html

Manilius (14 AD) gave much importance to the planetary joys (actually though he attributed the 4th house to Saturn's joy; Valens and subsequent Hellenists moved this to the 12th; I myself consider BOTH 4 and 12 to be joys of Saturn)

Manilius and Valens (and other Hellenists) give the following as the other planetary joys:
Mercury joys in 1st
Moon joys in 3rd
Venus joys in the 10th
Mars joys in the 6th
Jupiter joys in the 11th
Sun joys in the 9th

As I have posted elsewhere, I just give either +1 or -1 for any and all essential and accidental dignities/debilities' however, using the 1 to 5 points scoring method, in my opinion a planetary joy would be
a) an accidental dignity
...and
b) likely given a +3 score.

Opposite houses constitue the planetary "sorrows" (according to later Hellenists and early Islamic-transitional era authors)
Mercury sorrows in the 7th
Moon sorrows in the 9th
(Saturn sorrows in the 10th and/or Saturn sorrows in the 6th)
Mars sorrows in the 12th
Jupiter sorrows in the 5th
Sun sorrows in the 3rd
Venus sorrows in the 4th

These would be regarded as accidental detriments (and probably scored in the 1-5 point scoring method as -3)

So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

And yes, I was just wondering would there be a sorrow lol.

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect? Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

Please explain how Saturn finds its Joy in the 4th House.

byjove said:

So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

And yes, I was just wondering would there be a sorrow lol.

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect?

Click to expand...

I've wondered that. The joy schema that you linked above connects the planets with the sect concept in that the day sect planets find their joys in houses above the earth, and night sect planets find them under the earth.

Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

Click to expand...

I think with a lot of these questions you either need to find an authority who knows, or examine a lot of charts with these ideas in mind and see what seems to correlate. Or both.

I might adress some of these questions to a friend of mine who is very well read in the old stuff.

Maybe we could find examples of out of sect planets also in their joys in celebrity charts. I might see what I can rustle up later.

Edit: I didn't see Dr. Farr's post, thanks for that... very interesting.

RaptInReverie said:

Please explain how Saturn finds its Joy in the 4th House.

Click to expand...

Please do 'cuz I have it and I think Saturn would be much more useful in the 10th house of power/work than the 4th house of core being/family.

byjove said:

So at least a planet can be saved from peregrination with Joy?

I don't have this case, but just to test importance, what if one had a planet in joy but out of sect? Or in sorrow but in sect? Just mixed dignity or one overcomes the other?

Click to expand...

I second all of them.

Personally, I use my own system of joys based on what the houses do to the planets' energies. I don't know if this is an established system or not, though.

Houses
1. Sun
2. Moon
3. Mercury
4. Venus
5. Mars
6. Jupiter
7. Saturn
8. Saturn
9. Jupiter
10. Mars
11. Venus
12. Mercury

Sun joying in first because planets in the first tend to draw attention from other people, and what other planet draws attention more than the Sun?

Moon in second because it's about values. And what is the Moon if not a representation of what you value most?

Mercury in the third, for obvious reasons.

Venus in the fourth, comfortable home life, easy-going father, sets the stage for a happy life.

Mars in the fifth, romance, creativity, sex, gambling. Mars all the way.

Jupiter in the sixth I haven't worked out as well... but honestly, would you rather anything else there?

Saturn in the seventh. Marriages are serious affairs, meant to last a life time. Saturn is seen as bad here because marriages that are forged too hastily don't last, but that's not a bad thing. Other close relationships do well with the lord of time there keeping them together for long periods.

Saturn in the eight. Other people's money. 'nuff said.

Jupiter in the ninth for obvious reasons.

Mars in the 10th. Authority, career, and the drive for both. Right up Mars' alley.

Venus in the 11th because Venus gives you pleasant friends, hopes, wishes, blah blah.

Mercury in the 12th... well, again, haven't worked this one out yet...

The signs opposite the joys would be their sorrow. Sun wouldn't shine so bright in a marriage, Venus isn't so pleasant when gambling, Saturn isn't so pleasant to your values... etc.

This undoubtedly could be written better, but my Merc squares my AC

@MSO - That is basically the system of planetary rulership through the signs of the Zodiac, except rotated and applied to houses rather than signs. Your system also has a lot of overlap with the one I posted on my first post on this thread.

Interesting... you're quite right.

Oh well, works for me.

MSO,

I think its commendable that you’ve come up with your own system of Planetary Joys. We need more innovate astrologers like you out here. However, I think you might benefit from hearing some different views on your system. I’m not attacking you, but, contrarily, I am presenting different views for you to take into consideration--constructively, of course.

While the Sun in the 1st House may be a good placement, I think it could foster superficiality, a lack of depth, and egocentrism.

The Moon, in my opinion, expresses our needs--what we cling to for security. In the 2nd House, it could predispose the native to insecurities and self-worth issues, causing them to seek emotional security in material possessions. I would see this as a very vulnerable placement, especially if the Moon was in a water sign.

Mars in the 5th might exert too much energy into fun and games, leaving them little energy for work and other important obligations. Perhaps they might be adulterous and irresponsible in marriage.

Mercury in the 12th might not be vocal enough. A native with this placement might feel like their voice isn’t heard, or like they can never express themselves to others sufficiently. It could also suggest learning disabilities.

I think you’re on the right track, though. Let me know your thoughts on this.

RaptInReverie said:

MSO,

I think its commendable that you’ve come up with your own system of Planetary Joys. We need more innovate astrologers like you out here. However, I think you might benefit from hearing some different views on your system. I’m not attacking you, but, contrarily, I am presenting different views for you to take into consideration--constructively, of course.

While the Sun in the 1st House may be a good placement, I think it could foster superficiality, a lack of depth, and egocentrism.

The Moon, in my opinion, expresses our needs--what we cling to for security. In the 2nd House, it could predispose the native to insecurities and self-worth issues, causing them to seek emotional security in material possessions. I would see this as a very vulnerable placement, especially if the Moon was in a water sign.

Mars in the 5th might exert too much energy into fun and games, leaving them little energy for work and other important obligations. Perhaps they might be adulterous and irresponsible in marriage.

Mercury in the 12th might not be vocal enough. A native with this placement might feel like their voice isn’t heard, or like they can never express themselves to others sufficiently. It could also suggest learning disabilities.

I think you’re on the right track, though. Let me know your thoughts on this.

Click to expand...

Good points, all of them.

However, what you're explaining sounds a lot like the planets being in their own rulership. Leos are superficial, egocentric, etc. The Sun does well there. Same for the Moon being in Cancer, it leads to them being insecure, and Cancers are known horders (security in material possessions). And so forth with Mars in Aries/Mars in 5th House.

So I wonder if domicle rulerships are indeed "good" if the joys I've described aren't.

And let it be noted that I fight for my created philosophies until I'm proven wrong, but I hold nothing against people who do the proving. It's all part of the process, putting forth an idea and letting others bash it to prove it's worth! That's why my sig says what it does!

Your comment reminded me of this article.

I've actually been trying to find out what the actual best conditions and placements for planets are. The Moon in Cancer is good, at least if it's afflicted by malefics but not really otherwise, and really all that does is improve the condition of the malefics for the native and certainly not the condition of the Moon. There's a lot of weird and counter-intuitive, counter-common-belief stuff out there that I can totally see working more than what is commonly believed. People are too attached to archetypes and sentiment to pay enough attention to measurement and method. I started astrology in order to make measurements.

All the Hellenists referred to the 4th place as the "house of the fathers" (ie, ancestors) It was also referred to as "under the earth": hence Manilius connection (most likely) of Saturn being "in joy" in the 4th (fathers/ancestors/being under the earth)

Each factor (joy, sorrow, domicile, sect, etc) modifies the net situation of a given planet, hence the scoring method (what I refer to as a "totality of testimonies") It is quite appropriate to use several variant joy/sorrow/ allocation schema's, in making an evaluation.