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Degree Symbols Discuss your experiences with all symbol systems based on astrological degrees in the chart (i.e., Sabian Symbols, Kozminsky Symbols, etc.): the symbols for the transiting Sun and Moon and the events of your life, the symbols of your natal chart...


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Unread 12-10-2011, 07:29 PM
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The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Hi,

I've few questions. I googled the related terms to the above caption of the thread and simply couldnt get how to use Sabian symbols and what to think of that short lines that are written about some degrees.

First, If i've a planet say, Venus at 5' 05'' in Aquarius. Okay, i got that i'll round it to Venus at 6 degrees. Now, should i look at that short line as interpretation of this? For example, at Cafe Astrology,
http://cafeastrology.com/sabiansymbo...emeanings.html
the following is written about it,

5-6 deg Aquarius

A Masked Figure Performs Ritualistic Acts In A Mystery Play


Or for my Pluto in Scorpio at 7' 17''

7-8 deg Scorpio

A Calm Lake Bathed In Moonlight



Is this the reading? What does it mean?

I read on different websites that you round up the 'even degrees', if the degrees are odd, do you read them as such? Like my Moon in Cancer at 13'3'' will be read at 13 degree or at 14 degree cancer? I've read it as 13-14 degree cancer though, based on how the degrees are given at Cafe astrology.

How will it relate to the planets (like in above example Venus, Pluto or Moon or any other planets in the chart)?

Is there something to do with the House position also? Or like 7th house represent 'Others' in our chart, if we read some degrees in 7th house, will they explain about us or 'others'?

How do they relate to us in our daily lives? do we read them as transits?

Do we see the degrees for NN, SN and Chiron also?

Any guidance will be appreciated.
Regards,
Sanaqua.

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Unread 12-10-2011, 07:51 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Sorry Mods, i refreshed the post and it was duplicated by mistake. From my side, it looked like my first message to initiate the thread wasnt posted in the forum. I hit the submit button again and the post was duplicated. You can delete one from these two similar ones. Currently, i cant find a delete button to delete the replicated thread.
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Unread 12-11-2011, 09:30 AM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Hi, there is a 'Sticky' at the top of the column for the 'Degree Symbol' forum on 'Understanding the Enumeration of the Degrees.' You should read it.
The four points of the chart axis are the most important thing you could do with Sabian Symbolic interpretation to a natal chart.
The Asc., Desc., I.C. and M.C. are symbolically [in the same order] "WHO", "WHERE-TO" [or whom you are to become in this lifetime], 'HOW", and "WHY".
this is explained by Dane Rudhyar in his book "The Sabian Symbols. An Astrological Mandala." I recommend his book,for both the understanding of the symbols and the technique and methods of use and for his particular gift for altering a few of the symbols slightly and the layers of meaning he finds in them and His excellent writing skills that give him such ease of communication ...conveying them to the reader. If you stay with the study and practice you'll eventually want a copy of the symbols by Marc Edmond Jones as well.
Then figure the Sabian Symbols for the more major Astrological Parts. The Part of Fortune, Spirit, Intelligence, Increase and Benifits, Service, Inheritance,Catastrophe, Sudden Advancement, Love.
[Note ...recent revelations and understandings in support of Dane Rudhyar's implications and the 'Esoteric School of astrology' that is associated with the Theosophists. Gives all support and reason to read the I.C. as "WHY" ...and the M.C. as "HOW". The difference being that the one direction leads one more meshed in Maya [Involutionary]...the other is the 'yogi' way...the Spiritual aspirants way...the way out of the illusion and entrapment in Maya/materiality. [Evolutionary].
The symbol you find for your Part of Fortune is that attitude, action, outlook, frame of mind, whatever...that you must actively keep conscious of and always in a continuous effort of manifestation to provide you with the most fortunate cycles of events that will aid and assist your everyday goals and trials too.
The Part of Catastrophe is the symbol you don't want to activate...but all indication so far has shown that the 'Catastrophe' symbolized is inevitable...but being forewarned will let you at least mitigate it... control the damages...so to speak. President Obamas Part of Catastrophe is the 1st degree of Pisces
[from Rudhyars' book] "IN A CROWDED MARKETPLACE FARMERS AND MIDDLEMEN DISPLAY A GREAT VARIETY OF PRODUCTS.

KEYNOTE: The process of commingling and interchange which at all levels demonstrates the health of a community.

..... In this section of the cycle a man reaps what he has sown. But it may also be honors, social prestige, the interests of well-managed wealth. In this.....scene what is stressed is the coming together, ...... In a practical sense, the symbol, whenever it is found, emphasizes that the time has come to take full advantage of the social opportunities to bargain and to trade.

This is the first stage of the process related to the sixty-seventh five-fold sequence of symbols. It refers to all that can be gained from social interplay and especially, in the broadest sense of the word, from COMMERCE."
[full text of the symbols and more at this link: http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Sy...20Contents.htm

Dubyas was in a degree of the Zodiac for which the symbol is of a man standing up for his own integrity and making his own decisions and voicing his own opinion.

...I think you can agree that each one is that particular Mans catastrophe...Obama's is the economy.

The symbol you find for your Part of Increase will assist you in prompting the $$$ flow into your life way more easier [there are a few exceptions...as My brothers' Part of Imprisonment is the same degree of the Zodiac as his Part of Increase...as the part of Imprisonment has been shown to be 'That form which we are kept from...[Imprisoned away from it...or you can think of 'it' being imprisoned from you...another example would be Taurus 18*...as it is a symbol of renouncing material things how can $$$ into your life if you refuse it?]...as the symbol found for that part is one like that of the Part of Fortune...in that you want to make it a conscious daily effort to remember both those and a few other of these symbols and incorporate them into your life.

Each house cusp [I only use Placidus for this] symbol can be viewed as the role you must play as an actor in the affairs of the particular House in question. The particular qualities of the planets or Luminary in question should be seen as expressing itself as the symbol found in the degree for those. ...for example my Pluto is in the 21st degree of Leo...and the symbol is about the premature expansion of consciousness. I twas the first symbol that i took serious consideration for cause of validity as I had an OBE meditating the very first time I tried it in 1968 at age 15. ...something that should of taken most of a lifetime to achieve if it is even achieved [or at least a considerable amount of practice ...for the great majority of Humankind - ] ...the symbol for my Uranus at the 16th of Cancer in my 8th house.
[ibid.]
"A MAN STUDYING A MANDALA IN FRONT OF HIM, WITH THE HELP OF A VERY ANCIENT BOOK.

KEYNOTE: A deep concern with problems raised by the process of personality integration.

...and Uranus is the higher octave of Mercury..."The Great Awkener'...and, as I said the Sabian Symbols "Are An Astrological Mandala"

..check symbols for the Moons Nodes' too.

...and of last night my friend Mitch and I concluded that the Hermetic lots very much need to be symbolically understood and put into utilization in each ones life.
We studied ours and compare them with the ones I got for the natal chart I propose/Claim to be that of Yeshua/Jesus. The Hermetic Lot of Courage, Lot of Necessity, Lot of Victory and Lot of Eros.
We believe that anyone that is involved in any way with doing some part of function in the inevitable conflicts and transformations that will occur next year will need to know them for their self. Even if you don't believe that you are of any significance...you might find, out that, it is very much otherwise at a later date...maybe at a 'most very last possible time to be of positive influence for a 'Great Cause'
I am going to start a thread on that in the next day or two.
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Last edited by piercethevale; 12-12-2011 at 06:50 AM. Reason: spellin'...and a bit of rewrite for clarification
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Unread 12-11-2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
Hi,

I've few questions. I googled the related terms to the above caption of the thread and simply couldnt get how to use Sabian symbols and what to think of that short lines that are written about some degrees.

First, If i've a planet say, Venus at 5' 05'' in Aquarius. Okay, i got that i'll round it to Venus at 6 degrees.
Yes, that is correct--you round up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
Now, should i look at that short line as interpretation of this? For example, at Cafe Astrology,
http://cafeastrology.com/sabiansymbo...emeanings.html
the following is written about it,
There are many different sets of interpretations. Among the best are those of Marc Jones, Dane Rudhyar, Blain Bovee, Lynda Hill, and Diana Roche.

IMHO, these are the five best sets of interpretations. Only one of them is available online for free, however--Dane Rudhyars. You can find them here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
Is this the reading? What does it mean?
The books outlined above will provide you with ample information concerning these questions. Rudhyar and Bovee provide the best answers, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
I read on different websites that you round up the 'even degrees', if the degrees are odd, do you read them as such? Like my Moon in Cancer at 13'3'' will be read at 13 degree or at 14 degree cancer? I've read it as 13-14 degree cancer though, based on how the degrees are given at Cafe astrology.
That information is incorrect. I think PiercetheVale has a good post on this matter at the top of the Degree Symbols page. Check there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
How will it relate to the planets (like in above example Venus, Pluto or Moon or any other planets in the chart)?

Is there something to do with the House position also? Or like 7th house represent 'Others' in our chart, if we read some degrees in 7th house, will they explain about us or 'others'?

How do they relate to us in our daily lives? do we read them as transits?

Do we see the degrees for NN, SN and Chiron also?

Anywhere you find a degree that is important, the Sabian symbol for the degree can provided additional and at times invaluable information. What I sense is your underlying question is this: how do you interpret these symbols. That is a subject of much debate here and elsewhere. Hang out here for a while and you'll likely get many different perspectives, any and all of which can be useful to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
Any guidance will be appreciated.
Regards,
Sanaqua.
Hope this helps
thoughtfully
sdh3
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Unread 12-14-2011, 06:50 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Hi Piercethevale,

Thanks for your reply to my post. It's like you've told me how should plan a study course of mine. I really really appreciate this, it has helped me a lot. I've copied the message and gonna print it. The reason i didnt write back for this long, i've looked up the important degrees in my chart including the ones you have mentioned above. I have calculated them and wrote them in a sequence. Then, i'm writing the keynoted underneath also.

Yeah, i had read the sticky before i posted here but couldnt understand it.

Okay, i'll get Astrological Mandala printed from internet, i saw that it's available free online.

Following your instructions, i have first checked the degree symbols for AC, IC, DC and MC. If i'm reading everything correctly or near to right, it somewhat matches with what usual astrology tells about me. I am simply SURPRISED by this.
This is what i have got.

AC = Who, Taurus 7’56’’
7-8 deg Taurus

A Sleigh On Land Uncovered By Snow


DC= Who I’ll become in this lifetime, Scorpio 7’56’’
7-8 deg Scorpio

A Calm Lake Bathed In Moonlight


IC= How, Cancer 24’26’’
24-25 deg Cancer

A Willful Man Is Overshadowed By A Descent Of Superior Power


MC= Why, Capricorn 24’26’’
24-25 deg Capricorn

A Store Filled With Precious Oriental Rugs


I used to think that i can never experience any spiritual thing. When i was a child, i used to search about the mind sciences and Sufism (spiritualism) but then i thought it'll be extremely difficult for me to handle without a teacher and so i ran away from it. From some months, it's like i'm experiencing something at the spiritual level. Like i sometimes start feeling gloomy for no reason or about the tragedies different people have and most of the times, i would start feeling extremely calm or serene and would feel i have no worldly desire. I thought, it was because my Progressed Sun was moving into Pisces and is currently at zero degree. But the interpretation for these points of my chart, seems like say that i'm begining to learn many things like this.
I dont know if i'm getting the right meanings or not.

Part of Fortune Libra 17'30''

Phase 198 (Libra 18*):Two men placed under arrest.

Keynote: A breakdown in the constructive relationship between the individual and the society, and the expectable result.

This is the third stage of the fortieth sequence. Negative as the image may seem, one may see implied in it the power in every individual to assume social risks in order to express his convictions or deepest desires. Nevertheless, one thing is needed: FACING THE CONSEQUENCES.
I couldnt understand it.

From the example of your brother, a question popped into my mind. While i was writing down degrees symbols for my chart, i had two symbols at one degree, which is as follows
Love Taurus 9’2’’
9-10 deg Taurus

A Red Cross Nurse


Beauty Taurus 9’2’’
9-10 deg Taurus

A Red Cross Nurse

I cant understand it and i cant understand how will these degrees be activated and how will i feel if they're activated?
About House Cusps, i use astro.com to cast my chart and in astro.com, there're no details of the minutes and seconds written with them, so how will i calculate the symbols for them? And if do, like i did for my AC and other three angles, how can i incorporate them in my life?
My next question was going to be, the examples you gave from your chart of Pluto and Uranus. But PTV, tell me, arent the symbols saying the same things, your planets are already telling you?
My Moon at 13'39'' Cancer reads as 'A very old man facing a vast dark space to the northeast'.. 'Fulfilment in transcending and changeless wisdom'. In the description of this, there's a hint at Moon node too. How's it going to contribute in my personality?
Ok, i havent yet but i'll check symbols for moon nodes too. Like North Node is our ultimate goal, does it mean that i should follow what the symbols will tell about the degree of NN?

I have another question here (sorry i couldnt read Dane Rudhyar's Book. My exams are drawing near and even when i'm studying, astrology is going on in my sub-conscious in the back of my mind and then i cant resist and switch on my laptop to study some astrology too!). How are the degrees activated? Do our Progressed planets and Solar Arc planets when move over these degrees activate them? or Transitting planets or all of the above?
When a particular planet will activate a certain degree, will it add a tinge of its own qualities in the expression of the degree too?
How can we predict future events from symbols?
Is there any way to get an answer like we do in Horary astrology using symbols in a horary chart?

I dont have any knowledge about 'lots' but i'll read it.
And i'll look forward when will you start the thread about the things you explained in the last paragraph. From that too, a question has struck in my mind. I'll ask when you'll start the thread.

Thanks a LOT for 'designing' a course of astrology via symbols in your post. It's valuable for me. Now i know, how should i proceed.
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Unread 12-14-2011, 06:55 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Hi sdh3,

Thanks a lot for your response too. Earlier by mistake i had posted two threads with the same name and you and piercethevale had posted under separate thread. I was happy that you redirected me to the books. I appreciate your contribution.

Regards,
Sanaqua.
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What a bonfire my letters would make.

If I could speak words of water,
You would drown when I said
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Unread 12-26-2011, 09:57 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Sorry, I've been busy and couldn't get to writing response.
I won't do any analysis without a chart to look at. There has been too many times in the past that someone wrote down something wrong and it didn't become revealed until after I had taken a fair bit of time to look it over and then write a reply ...and then the inquirer wanted a do over...

I'll be glad to look it over when you post it.
I will tell you this in the meantime. I've only discovered that the symbols are to be taken literally with the research I was doing with the biblical chart I've got a thread on in this same sub-forum. In those 7 years I've done maybe 5 or 6 doz. charts...maybe a few more or less. A lot of those charts dealt with a number of the same degrees. In the twenty seven and a half years I've been utilizing the Sabian Symbols there are still a number of them that i have never encountered for any reason...and then there are some that seem to pop up in just about every other chart...I can't figure it...it just went that way.
Thus I don't always have an immediate answer for some symbols in some applications. The Planets I've yet to figure out a bit...mine have made sense to me over the years...but I had to be patient and just keep an open minded belief in the fact that the symbology would be understood as to the Astral object in question. The Sabian Symbol for my natal Pluto, the moment I laid my eyes on the symbol for it I understood it and knew that the others would be in time too.
As I had achieved 'Samadhi' the very first time i meditated at 15 years of age during the summer of 1968...the symbol for my natal Pluto in the 21st degree of Leo states: [from Rudhyar's book on the Sabian Symbols]

(LEO 21): INTOXICATED CHICKENS DIZZILY FLAP THEIR WINGS TRYING TO FLY.

KEYNOTE: The often-negative and at times ludicrous first experience with spiritual teachings.

In Near Eastern symbolism wine, intoxication, and vineyards always refer to ecstatic experiences and to the contact with mystical or occult schools..."Chickens" here suggest that we are dealing with human beings who are the standardized products of their culture, and more or less undifferentiated specimens of a social norm. Brought accidentally or prematurely to mystical or occult experiences...
.... [Keywords] PREMATURE EXPANSION OF CONSCIOUSNESS."

...when my brother gave me the book s he felt i should study to begin my 'schoolin' in astrology he gave me Rudhyars book on the Sabians as well..and noted that he thought Pluto was the most powerful and influential planet on my chart [well, he'd only been studying about 2 years at the time his self. So I looked up the symbol for Pluto first off. ...When I saw what Rudhyar had wrote...I was pretty much sold that the Sabian Symbols were valid ...right from the get-go.

The symbol for Libra 18*. is what I've got for the key of G in my application of musical tonality to the Zodiac. [you can see and read about that here, but be warned it might be too advanced for you yet.] http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=177

As the 12 point matrix [star] is alleged to be 'The Path of Discipleship' [Dorothy Leon, author] The symbol when considered to be on of the steps of discipleship is demonstrating what all ascetics on the spiritual path find sooner or later...that they are estranged from society...[my yogi buddy , Suryakant agreed that he felt this musical app is the 'Path of Discipleship'...although I still have a bit of doubt. Suryakant is the one that pointed out what I already saw for myself in that the 18* of Libra symbolically describes that state of 'estrangement'. But, I hope you've used the 'Day Formula' as that is the only correct formula for the Part of Fortune. If you used the 'Night formula' then what you have is your Part of Spirit...which is the inherent quality that you are awakened too and have no real need to seek to activate...it will come of its own...I have found. If the 18th of Libra is your part of Fortune and you are a seeker of spiritual perfection...seclusion is your need. As Rudhyar said the following in the definition of the symbol that he wrote:

"The problem for a society is how to include in its patterns of order agencies or channels for transformation and particularly how to keep them truly operative; for individuals, it is how to make their transforming vision or impulse acceptable to society"


...if you are going to follow a mundane path ...you need to consider being the 'Lone wolf' type ...consider yourself an outcast as to that activity that you will eventually find is your destiny to do and in service to humanity [everyone has one...or a choice of one from a few options.] It's kind of similar to my part of Fortune and M.C. ...both at the 25th of Leo...only my is a solo journey af rather less obtrusive and thus nearly unnoticeable in activity...you on the other hand, the symbol is saying that this activity of yours is quite noticable a most likely "Frowned Upon In This Establishment"...so to speak...meaning you'll want to keep yourself apart from society [you can be in the midst of a crowd of people and still be removed..if you know what I mean.
Get that natal chart posted and I'll answer any other ?s you have...within reason, anyways.
ptv
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Unread 12-27-2011, 01:29 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanaqua View Post
I cant understand it and i cant understand how will these degrees be activated and how will i feel if they're activated?
Here's an unconventional idea but also one that should resonate with you. Each symbol is a vignette, a word picture, that has narrative qualities. Or you might say that it is part of (or could be part of) a narrative. Perhaps you could understand when and how a particular degree is activated and how that "feels" if you start thinking in terms of narrative arcs. This link will help you get started ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure

Hope this helps

thoughtfully
sdh3
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Unread 12-27-2011, 04:10 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

First off...If you can't understand the sticky, I don't know if I should even continue this conversation. The sticky is written so simply as for an 8 year old to get it. I mean seriously...what don't you understand? There are 30 degrees and they are numbered one to thirty...that's 1 to 30....!?!
To put it simply: Let's say your Mercury is at 0* 31' 45"...then your Mercury is in the first degree...there is no such thing as a Zero degree...just as there was no year 0 AD or 0 BC
The day you were born you were in your first year. You weren't a year old, but YOU WERE IN YOUR FIRST YEAR. The day you completed that first year of life it was your first birthday and you got to say your were a year old, but the next day you were in your second year.
Now, just think degrees. The moment we go into another sign we are in the first degree. Once we complete that first degree we are a full one dgree and it is written thus: 1* 00' 00". But, the moment we got beyond that; 1* 00' 01" we are in the second degree...it's that simple.
What's not to understand?
To put it even more simply, [but just for you] if the degree is not followed by, 00' 00" , just round everything up to the next degree.

...as far as what sdh3 is saying...yeah, that is kind of how it works. The symbol for each house cusp is like your role as an actor in a play...and your part is the affairs of that house.
Your first house, your ascendant is who you are...who you were born as. The 7th house cusp, your descendant is who you must become as the affairs of the 7th house are partnerships and public relations...it's your emergence into the outside world ...it's what the world is going to see you as....it's what the Cosmos has decreed you should allow yourself to become...you have free will to resist it if you want...but the birth chart I produced for Jesus has shown that Jesus didn't resist it. In truth, when you are one with the will of the Creator your free will is the same as what the birth chart says you are.

So, you say your Asc. is the 8th degree of Taurus. What Rudhyar wrote in his book on the Sabian Symbols and defined the 8th degree of Taurus is this.

Taurus 8* " A SLEIGH ON LAND UNCOVERED BY SNOW.

KEYNOTE: The value of anticipating and preparing for expectable conditions.

Here we have a combination of two factors: "the sleigh," which is a product of traditional skill (cf. Taurus 6 symbol) and the ability man has to foresee and thus to prepare for a future situation. This ability relates this symbol to the one for Taurus 7, because the woman from Samaria had 'the capacity to receive a revelation of the future state of human evolution, though in a different and subconscious sense. Man should be ready to use past knowledge and skill to meet the demands of a stage yet to come.

.... [you need to] realize the value of FUTURE-ORIENTED IMAGINATION but also of relying upon the natural order of unfoldment of all life processes."

Well, this is pretty straight forward and simple as to "WHO" you are.
You are that person that must be mutable...a bit of a challenge for the 'Fixedness' of a Taurus [but as I don't know your Sun sign, I can't get any insight into the depth of your entire being....hence ...WHY, I request the entire chart.] You must be that kind of person that can forever go with the flow...adapt to changes but must be prepared for those changes.
If you know winter is just weeks away and you heat your home with a wood stove you want a cord or two of firewood stashed, covered up from getting wet and nearby and read and available...don't you? You want to have a larder full of food stored in case you get snowed in. You want the roof of your home to be in good shape so as it doesn't leak during the winter storms...thus you should of had it repaired during the summer if it needed repairing. You want your car winterized, the snow tires put on for the winter. You get your heavy blankets or your down comforter out of your cedar chest, your flannel shirts and pajamas out of the trunk, cleaned and ready to wear.
Get it? This is simile of who YOU ARE...[or you'd better allow yourself to be] ...just like the old Boy Scout motto...BE PREPARED...you have to be the kind of person that says to them self; 'Gee, lucky for me I had the foresight to bring mosquito repellent on this fishing trip because everyone else is getting stung like mad." See?
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Unread 12-27-2011, 05:12 PM
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Now as to your Descendant. Who you must be to the world outside of your self...who they will say you were at your funeral.

Scorpio 8* "A CALM LAKE BATHED IN MOONLIGHT.

KEYNOTE: A quiet openness to higher inspiration.
"

Well, that's pretty straight forward and simple.
As I am both a Quaker and a yogi, this is kind of like who I am myself.
There is no preacher in the meeting house of 'The Society of Friends'. A Quaker doesn't need someone to preach to them...they listen to the 'inner voice'...that 'voice of the spirit', that 'Spirit' has the discernment and wisdom to tell you what to do.
As a yogi that employs meditation ...I can tell you that by meditating...by calming and quieting the 'internal dialogue of your mind'...[that chatter that's always going on in your head that is saying, 'Gee, I wonder if I look proper in these clothes today", or , 'Oh, I wonder what I should have for dinner tonight, should I get a bottle of red wine or white wine...oh, 'The ball game is starting on T.V. in ten minutes, I'd better get the steaks out of the freezer before I get to watching the game.']
You must become a person that is ever ready to hear that voice that can get drowned in the din of too much noise from everything else, particularly your own internal dialogue.
"Wow, I was so caught up in my on drama and thoughts in my head I just walked past a guy giving out hundred dollar bills and didn't notice and now He's given the last one away."

Do you see what I'm saying here? Only, I would see it more like the Spirit would have said: "You just walked past a man starving to death and begging for only enough food to have kept him alive just one more day...but now he's dead...and had he lived He was the man that was to have become the doctor that would have discovered a cure for cancer...if you had only allowed yourself to become a person that is ever calm and collected and ready for my voice...the voice of your spirit, mankind would never of had to suffer from cancer again." ...sorry to be so dramatic...but, I'm trying to get a point across here.

So, how are you to become that kind of person?
That is demonstrated symbolically by the symbol for your I.C. according to Rudhyar. But I did mention that if you feel you want to be a most spiritually oriented person then you have to choose the 'Evolutionary' path and that is symbolically represented by your M.C....
As your Desc. is saying you must be open to 'Higher Inspiration' and to me that is the voice of the 'Spirit'...God, trying to communicate to you, if you please, I'm going to give you the 'Evolutionary' analysis...that is interpret the M.C. as your "HOW"...you are to become the one open to that inner voice.

Due to the moderators here being so 'On MY Case' about going over the 100 word limit on copyright infringement I'm going to have to edit the guts out of the symbol definition by Rudhyar...I want you to go to the website and thoroughly read the entire text for the symbol of the 25th degree of Capricorn
http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Sy...rn%2016-30.htm
[From Rudhyar...with most of it 'gutted']

" A STORE FILLED WITH PRECIOUS ORIENTAL RUGS.

KEYNOTE: The use of cultural and artistic processes as means to enhance personal comfort and appreciation.

... A "rug"...something on which a person stands or sits....is a foundation for cultural "under-standing," ...can have a magical or sacred meaning, as in the case of prayer rugs....[a] "woman in a convent"... knows only the bare floor, because her goal is one of transcendence.... [for] the...devotee praying to ... god, society offers... beautiful rugs...[so one may] meet the universe, not [only] ...in terms of the support the natural soil gives, but protected... and securely established on the mental-spiritual as well as manual achievements of those who keep the cultural symbols alive.

[emphasize] the value of RELIANCE ON TRADITION."

If this is HOW you are to become one open to that spiritual inspiration...one whom must be able to hear the voice of the spirit...it sounds exactly like I was just telling you about that side of my own self...the Quaker yogi that I am.
I would say join a traditional group that utilizes meditation or some yoga activity that quiets the mind...but one that you know to be most traditional and that you will feel comfortable in...[yeah, you don't want to get involved with some Jim Jones or Rajneesh character ...I recommend something like 'Ananda'. There are many 'Ananda' groups that the 'Self Realization Fellowship' charters across the country here in the United States. Or the T.M. group, ...or become a Quaker...or join my Yoga Order there are two chapters is the USA, The Sadhan Order, one is in Chicago, the other in Arizona. if you are not religious then find a very established and traditional group that does activities to calm their being and open themselves to higher inspiration..

Now "WHY" are your being prompted to do all this ..that is symbolically said in the symbol for your I.C....the 25th degree of Cancer.
That is.
To be able to respond to spiritual forces and adapt to the integration of personality through positive will-full endeavors. So as to become one who uses their will and positive imagination in facing life situations. To become a pentecostal descent of power....a incarnate spiritual response, a sign of inner strength and uncommon ENDOWMENT.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

PTV,

I was reading your post on Sabian symbols and the four cardinal points of the chart. I want to make sure I am understanding what you were saying correctly.

ASC = Who you were born as
DSC = Who you will become
IC = How you will become
MC= Why you will become

And you did mention that in some cases the IC and MC switch meaning as in:
IC = Why you will become
MC = How you will become

So for my own purposes I would do as follows:

Who I was born as= ASC 1
Who I will become= DSC 1
How you will become= IC 15
Why you will become= MC 15

I will attach my chart so you can visually see if I did it correctly
Thank you for your help
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

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Originally Posted by student4life View Post
PTV,

I was reading your post on Sabian symbols and the four cardinal points of the chart. I want to make sure I am understanding what you were saying correctly.

ASC = Who you were born as
DSC = Who you will become
IC = How you will become
MC= Why you will become

And you did mention that in some cases the IC and MC switch meaning as in:
IC = Why you will become
MC = How you will become

So for my own purposes I would do as follows:

Who I was born as= ASC 1
Who I will become= DSC 1
How you will become= IC 15
Why you will become= MC 15

I will attach my chart so you can visually see if I did it correctly
Thank you for your help
student4life, I looked at the chart you posted. The wording of the Sabian Symbols for the four points are as follows:

Asc = Capricorn 1: An Indian chief demanding recognition
Dsc = Cancer 1: A furled and an unfurled flag displayed from a vessel
MC = Libra 15: Circular paths
IC = Aries 15: An Indian weaving a blanket

thoughtfully
sdh3
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

sdh3,

Thank you for your input ...It gave me a very funny visual reading the statements... An Indian chief wrapped in a blanket waving a flag and walking in circles.... That basically describes my life LOL

I will look into them further to get a clear understanding of their meaning
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

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sdh3,

Thank you for your input ...It gave me a very funny visual reading the statements... An Indian chief wrapped in a blanket waving a flag and walking in circles.... That basically describes my life LOL

I will look into them further to get a clear understanding of their meaning
Got a VERY big belly laugh out of that one. That having been said, you touch upon a very important method or technique--combining the images into a composite. In my opinion finding an underlying or integrating theme that links a set of symbols of interest is an important and under-appreciated consideration.

thoughtfully
sdh3
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

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Originally Posted by student4life View Post
sdh3,

Thank you for your input ...It gave me a very funny visual reading the statements... An Indian chief wrapped in a blanket waving a flag and walking in circles.... That basically describes my life LOL

I will look into them further to get a clear understanding of their meaning
Well, I've only recently realized after I published my book that the M.C. is the HOW..or should be.
There are those that will insist there is no soul, no afterlife and are only upon this Earth this one time to wring all the material engrossment they can get out of it ...for those the I.C. would be the HOW.
Look at what I have and did so publish for my Jesus chart. I followed what Rudhyar said and applied Capricorn 1 as the How.
Cap 1* is " AN INDIAN CHIEF CLAIMS POWER FROM THE ASSEMBLED TRIBE.

KEYNOTE: The power and responsibility implied in any claim for leadership.

The religious ideal implied in the preceding symbol has now materialized or crystallized into sheer power — the power to lead the community and to ensure its welfare or even its physical survival. ...." A time comes in many lives when the individual finds himself placed in a situation that allows him to assume power over his comrades... ...It refers to the capacity latent in every individual to claim and assume AUTHORITY in a vital group-situation."

The symbol for Cancer 1*, what would be the 'WHY" is; " ON A SHIP THE SAILORS LOWER AN OLD FLAG AND RAISE A NEW ONE.

KEYNOTE: A radical change of allegiance exteriorized in a symbolical act: a point of no return."

See, at first I agreed with this...then when I realized that Rudhyar was repeatedly saying that all true paths of discipleship begin in Virgo and that the Theosophist shcool of astrology, known as 'Esoteric' [as that is what Theosophists call their brand], claims that the direction to read the procession of the symbols is the opposite way. I finally realized that they were both right but just hadn't put it all together. You do read it in reverse but start at Virgo 30* [Read what i posted yesterday in my thread "The Birthchart of Jesus'" as I had discovered another now development as I finally worked out the Part of Hyleg for the chart]
See, he didn't become the new 'Icon' by assuming control over the 'tribes'...the Jewish 'tribes' didn't accept him...they were not meant to as they were instructed in the Tanakh to no longer recognize any new prophets until further notice from God. He wasn't here for them and Yeshua/Jesus knew that.
He is to be the 'Chief' over all the sects that sprang up that did take him to be their 'Chief'...the Gnostics at first, as they were the only ones to begin with...then the various Catholics...Orthodox, Roman...etc. Then the protestants...etc. Once that is accomplished ...THEN HE is recognized as the common 'Flag of Allegiance'.
It all sprang form realizing that the 1st degree of Libra...symbolized as a perfect specimen impaled by a dart on display and described as 'The Perfect Form of Man' and seems to so obviously represent Jesus on the Cross...that a Butterfly is not born a butterfly but must undergo a chrysalis...Thus the first degree is Virgo 30* ...which is the beginning of the quest..the journey...the path to Conquer the Illusion [not the completion of the conquering of the illusion of Maya as I had believed but when I re-read it and finally noted that Rudhyar said 'it is the beginning of the conquest' ...then you go through all the symbols to end at Libra one degree...go through the 'chrysalis'...become the 'Butterfly' ...the perfection.

You do want to reach spiritual perfection ...don't you? If so...read the M.C. as the HOW.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

So, as you share those two degrees with Jesus but have Cap. 1* as 'WHO' you are...take that to mean that you are a born leader...that you have executive qualities...even if you only get married and become a housewife...you still will be the executive in your home...so don't let any dude tell you otherwise or try to subjugate you...you are to become a 'Role Model' in a sense...an ideal of inspiration...how do you do that?...by the symbology portrayed in the M.C.

...and I take this to mean to become a master at mastering those seemingly mundane paths...but I also get a sense of the Labyrinth here...and the mystical legend surround that is something you may want to look into. I myself am studying the rumor/myth that there was once one upon Glastonbury Hill...and the deep significance it had. [Supposedly I was a Knight in a court in England 1200 years ago and had quite a bit of association with Glastonbury Hill and plan on going to England next year to spend some time there and see if it 'stirs up' any soul memories ...my clairvoyant friend and spiritual confidante has very much recommended that I do and has said I will find something that I will connect with from the past...and that it is vital to further progress involving my work...which she considers to be a cause..and keeps me believing in myself....as to this endeavor of promoting Sabian Symbolic Astrology so vigorously...much to the consternation of many.]
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

shd3,

Yeah, I can't turn it off, I always see things as pictures in my head first before I can start taking it apart to understand it. It is rather comical, and I would probably be locked up if the outside world could see how my mind works. ;P
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Thank you for sharing all of your considerable knowledge with me. It is much appreciated! I have often read your posts on the Sabian symbols but I don't think I was personally ready for that information yet. I was just reading a post yesterday and it was talking about critical degrees. I realized that I have a large quantity of these so I then started researching further and came to the Sabian symbols.
I work from home and today I did not work at all because I have been so consumed with learning more about this.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

I assume this last post of yours is directed to me.
Well, your 'WHY" of all this is the 15th of Aries and Rudhyar defined it with his 'keynote' as: " Projecting into everyday living the realization of wholeness and fulfillment."

...that's all it is...if you are happy and feeling fulfilled already might I suggest just leaving Astrology alone ..unless it is to examine the proclivities and the debilities you been assigned [the Planetary aspects to one another and all that psycho-babble stuff that is the basis of 'Trad Astrology'...but be careful...as I believe [in fact very sure of this] a lot of the 'Trad' techniques to be erroneous. Such as Planetary rulerships, somewhat, using fixed stars...and I'm not too sure what you are referring to as 'Critical Degrees' but if it's what i think you mean...i wouldn't trust that too much either...IMHO...Of Course!
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

PTV,

Yes, it was to you, sorry I forgot to address it... No, I don't ever feel fulfilled actually, I constantly have a feeling of needing to do more. I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and learning and I feel I have something important that I HAVE to do with astrology/ esoteric knowledge. I have not yet put my finger on exactly what that is but I am trying to figure it out.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Hi PTV,

First of all, Thanks for posting back. I see, i'm posting my chart, a day later than when you posted me reply. So here's my chart.

In my previous post, i had very carefully wrote my degrees so that i dont have to say that i, by mistake, wrote down something incorrect. I had wrote down everything on a Word Document as a reference, the same day.

I'll be more than happy if you read it and teach me something which i dont know.

You see, here, My Pluto is on 7 degree Scorpio which i'll take as 8 degrees and the same degree is my DC. Since, it's opposing my AC, i'm very very demanding from myself and from others. And sometimes, it becomes a life and death situation for me. I really liked this interpretation in Sabian Symbols which is 'Calm lake bathed in moonlight'. I'm and i'll actually look forward, how it's going to effect me.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdh3 View Post
Here's an unconventional idea but also one that should resonate with you. Each symbol is a vignette, a word picture, that has narrative qualities. Or you might say that it is part of (or could be part of) a narrative. Perhaps you could understand when and how a particular degree is activated and how that "feels" if you start thinking in terms of narrative arcs. This link will help you get started ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure

Hope this helps

thoughtfully
sdh3

Hi Sdh3,

Thanks for your input. I wrote 'i cant understand' for the questions which i listed in my above posts. I'm surely going to read the link, you posted for me, in a while, after i answer the posts already awaiting me.

Regards,
Sanaqua
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

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First off...If you can't understand the sticky, I don't know if I should even continue this conversation. The sticky is written so simply as for an 8 year old to get it. I mean seriously...what don't you understand? There are 30 degrees and they are numbered one to thirty...that's 1 to 30....!?!
To put it simply: Let's say your Mercury is at 0* 31' 45"...then your Mercury is in the first degree...there is no such thing as a Zero degree...just as there was no year 0 AD or 0 BC
The day you were born you were in your first year. You weren't a year old, but YOU WERE IN YOUR FIRST YEAR. The day you completed that first year of life it was your first birthday and you got to say your were a year old, but the next day you were in your second year.
Now, just think degrees. The moment we go into another sign we are in the first degree. Once we complete that first degree we are a full one dgree and it is written thus: 1* 00' 00". But, the moment we got beyond that; 1* 00' 01" we are in the second degree...it's that simple.
What's not to understand?
To put it even more simply, [but just for you] if the degree is not followed by, 00' 00" , just round everything up to the next degree.
PTV, I said, 'I couldnt understand' not in the context of counting my degrees. You see my chart, i've posted the rounded up degrees as you have instructed to. However, i couldnt understand how they're activated? Like if they're activated when a transitting planet passes over them? or a Progressed planet or a Solar Arc planet? Here, by 'activation of degrees', i meant the points like Part of accidents or happiness or destruction or increase. And there're a number of questions which i listed in my earlier post.

Your posts are bit advanced but i can comprehend them. I have to read them twice sometimes to have a better understanding but i surely do understand them. I'll be happy if you continue this conversation AS all the time when you took time to post your reply, i have been thinking about it and waiting for your reply. I have to read them twice because you're more experienced, mature and many years older than me in age. So, i've to understand the gist of what you say with concentration.


Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
...as far as what sdh3 is saying...yeah, that is kind of how it works. The symbol for each house cusp is like your role as an actor in a play...and your part is the affairs of that house.
Your first house, your ascendant is who you are...who you were born as. The 7th house cusp, your descendant is who you must become as the affairs of the 7th house are partnerships and public relations...it's your emergence into the outside world ...it's what the world is going to see you as....it's what the Cosmos has decreed you should allow yourself to become...you have free will to resist it if you want...but the birth chart I produced for Jesus has shown that Jesus didn't resist it. In truth, when you are one with the will of the Creator your free will is the same as what the birth chart says you are.
I hadnt checked the option in astro.com which opens a .pdf file where there's every information about the exact degrees of cusps. I have now found out that and i'll check my cusps today. About resisting what i'll become which is actually written by Creator, i have read this in religious context and i agree with every word of you. I dont know what is written for me about what will i become, but i have set my goals that i'll try to be patient, calm and forgiving. I'm exremely demanding from myself and so i'm impatient and impulsive. I have to correct these things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
So, you say your Asc. is the 8th degree of Taurus. What Rudhyar wrote in his book on the Sabian Symbols and defined the 8th degree of Taurus is this.

Taurus 8* " A SLEIGH ON LAND UNCOVERED BY SNOW.

KEYNOTE: The value of anticipating and preparing for expectable conditions.

Here we have a combination of two factors: "the sleigh," which is a product of traditional skill (cf. Taurus 6 symbol) and the ability man has to foresee and thus to prepare for a future situation. This ability relates this symbol to the one for Taurus 7, because the woman from Samaria had 'the capacity to receive a revelation of the future state of human evolution, though in a different and subconscious sense. Man should be ready to use past knowledge and skill to meet the demands of a stage yet to come.

.... [you need to] realize the value of FUTURE-ORIENTED IMAGINATION but also of relying upon the natural order of unfoldment of all life processes."

Well, this is pretty straight forward and simple as to "WHO" you are.
You are that person that must be mutable...a bit of a challenge for the 'Fixedness' of a Taurus [but as I don't know your Sun sign, I can't get any insight into the depth of your entire being....hence ...WHY, I request the entire chart.] You must be that kind of person that can forever go with the flow...adapt to changes but must be prepared for those changes.
If you know winter is just weeks away and you heat your home with a wood stove you want a cord or two of firewood stashed, covered up from getting wet and nearby and read and available...don't you? You want to have a larder full of food stored in case you get snowed in. You want the roof of your home to be in good shape so as it doesn't leak during the winter storms...thus you should of had it repaired during the summer if it needed repairing. You want your car winterized, the snow tires put on for the winter. You get your heavy blankets or your down comforter out of your cedar chest, your flannel shirts and pajamas out of the trunk, cleaned and ready to wear.
Get it? This is simile of who YOU ARE...[or you'd better allow yourself to be] ...just like the old Boy Scout motto...BE PREPARED...you have to be the kind of person that says to them self; 'Gee, lucky for me I had the foresight to bring mosquito repellent on this fishing trip because everyone else is getting stung like mad." See?

I posted my chart in my post before this. You're right on. I can forever go with the flow but when i have to change, i sometimes adapt at once.
Impatient. I'm verymuch impatient. I'm not from the culture to know the symbolic meaning of a 'sleigh' and what's its significance. But yes, i can understand what you just said about it.
Especially, after i started studying Astrology, i sometimes concieve things about future but i cannot wait for the natural unfolding of events. This is why i call myself impatient. In the meantime, i can experience extreme cycles of boredom and excitment and think that i'll wait forever.
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

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Now as to your Descendant. Who you must be to the world outside of your self...who they will say you were at your funeral.

Scorpio 8* "A CALM LAKE BATHED IN MOONLIGHT.

KEYNOTE: A quiet openness to higher inspiration."

Well, that's pretty straight forward and simple.
As I am both a Quaker and a yogi, this is kind of like who I am myself.
There is no preacher in the meeting house of 'The Society of Friends'. A Quaker doesn't need someone to preach to them...they listen to the 'inner voice'...that 'voice of the spirit', that 'Spirit' has the discernment and wisdom to tell you what to do.
As a yogi that employs meditation ...I can tell you that by meditating...by calming and quieting the 'internal dialogue of your mind'...[that chatter that's always going on in your head that is saying, 'Gee, I wonder if I look proper in these clothes today", or , 'Oh, I wonder what I should have for dinner tonight, should I get a bottle of red wine or white wine...oh, 'The ball game is starting on T.V. in ten minutes, I'd better get the steaks out of the freezer before I get to watching the game.']
You must become a person that is ever ready to hear that voice that can get drowned in the din of too much noise from everything else, particularly your own internal dialogue.
"Wow, I was so caught up in my on drama and thoughts in my head I just walked past a guy giving out hundred dollar bills and didn't notice and now He's given the last one away."
Here, i'll say that i have so much chattering going on in my mind all the times. And it's noise which i have to control through sometimes the music in a very loud volume. And i AM a person even right now who can get absorbed in thoughts so much that i wouldnt even need anyone's company and i can spend hours thinking, imagining and planning. This is not meditation because it's not that i have devoted time for meditation or i sit with the intention of it. Sometimes, it so happens that i imagine a thing so much that it comes true. I attribute this with my Moon in Cancer in my 3rd house of natal chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piercethevale View Post
So, how are you to become that kind of person?
That is demonstrated symbolically by the symbol for your I.C. according to Rudhyar. But I did mention that if you feel you want to be a most spiritually oriented person then you have to choose the 'Evolutionary' path and that is symbolically represented by your M.C....
As your Desc. is saying you must be open to 'Higher Inspiration' and to me that is the voice of the 'Spirit'...God, trying to communicate to you, if you please, I'm going to give you the 'Evolutionary' analysis...that is interpret the M.C. as your "HOW"...you are to become the one open to that inner voice.

Due to the moderators here being so 'On MY Case' about going over the 100 word limit on copyright infringement I'm going to have to edit the guts out of the symbol definition by Rudhyar...I want you to go to the website and thoroughly read the entire text for the symbol of the 25th degree of Capricorn
http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Sy...rn%2016-30.htm
[From Rudhyar...with most of it 'gutted']

" A STORE FILLED WITH PRECIOUS ORIENTAL RUGS.

KEYNOTE: The use of cultural and artistic processes as means to enhance personal comfort and appreciation.

... A "rug"...something on which a person stands or sits....is a foundation for cultural "under-standing," ...can have a magical or sacred meaning, as in the case of prayer rugs....[a] "woman in a convent"... knows only the bare floor, because her goal is one of transcendence.... [for] the...devotee praying to ... god, society offers... beautiful rugs...[so one may] meet the universe, not [only] ...in terms of the support the natural soil gives, but protected... and securely established on the mental-spiritual as well as manual achievements of those who keep the cultural symbols alive.

[emphasize] the value of RELIANCE ON TRADITION."

If this is HOW you are to become one open to that spiritual inspiration...one whom must be able to hear the voice of the spirit...it sounds exactly like I was just telling you about that side of my own self...the Quaker yogi that I am.
I would say join a traditional group that utilizes meditation or some yoga activity that quiets the mind...but one that you know to be most traditional and that you will feel comfortable in...[yeah, you don't want to get involved with some Jim Jones or Rajneesh character ...I recommend something like 'Ananda'. There are many 'Ananda' groups that the 'Self Realization Fellowship' charters across the country here in the United States. Or the T.M. group, ...or become a Quaker...or join my Yoga Order there are two chapters is the USA, The Sadhan Order, one is in Chicago, the other in Arizona. if you are not religious then find a very established and traditional group that does activities to calm their being and open themselves to higher inspiration..

Now "WHY" are your being prompted to do all this ..that is symbolically said in the symbol for your I.C....the 25th degree of Cancer.
That is.
To be able to respond to spiritual forces and adapt to the integration of personality through positive will-full endeavors. So as to become one who uses their will and positive imagination in facing life situations. To become a pentecostal descent of power....a incarnate spiritual response, a sign of inner strength and uncommon ENDOWMENT.

Okay, i understand that. I'm religious and i can understand that how can i do what you're saying. No, i'm not in US. But yes, in recent days, i have been planning to join one such group. I want to do this when i'm done with my studies goals and my pursuits about my profession that i want which will encompass my next 2,3 or perhaps 4 years. I dont know if it happens through a pre-planning or it's the natural way. Like you say that you're a Quaker and a yogi, in my culture, i'm thinking to join two sects too. Infact, i cannot say anything right now. Decisions like these require a vast and clear knowledge which i'm on the way but obviously i'm a student right now. I dont have 'acquired' that yet.
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Unread 12-28-2011, 03:35 PM
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Sanaqua Sanaqua is offline
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Re: The delineation of a chart using Sabian symbols..

Quote:
Originally Posted by student4life View Post
PTV,

I was reading your post on Sabian symbols and the four cardinal points of the chart. I want to make sure I am understanding what you were saying correctly.

ASC = Who you were born as
DSC = Who you will become
IC = How you will become
MC= Why you will become

And you did mention that in some cases the IC and MC switch meaning as in:
IC = Why you will become
MC = How you will become

So for my own purposes I would do as follows:

Who I was born as= ASC 1
Who I will become= DSC 1
How you will become= IC 15
Why you will become= MC 15

I will attach my chart so you can visually see if I did it correctly
Thank you for your help

Hi student4life,

Here, i felt like you have intruded into my thread. I dont know your intentions but i really felt that you could have had started another about your own chart. Sorry but i felt this and said so.

Symbology is really new for me and i am really dedicated to learn from this thread and my chart in a new way..

Regards,
Sanaqua.
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