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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 09-10-2006, 09:35 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Natural Order

I have been reading 23's Chart and because she has her signs in Natural order around the astrology wheel i.e Ascendant Aries, 2nd cusp Taurus and so on. When Planets fall in a house like her Mars in Gemini 3rd house do I always put a extra emphasis on her planets like for Mars a forceful communicator and like 23 said she doesn't mince her words. Will these placements be extra strong. Like her Libra Moon in 7th.

Shining Ray

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  #2  
Unread 09-10-2006, 09:46 AM
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Re: Natural Order

I'd say they surely must be 'stronger'. A natural chart like 23's is appealing to interpret, (almost easier!) It seems that there is one less factor to complicate things. You don't have to interpret so carefully for sign influence on house. Is that how you see it?
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Unread 09-10-2006, 02:14 PM
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Re: Natural Order

I have been researching the topic of natural charts since I discovered my true birth time blessed me with an Ascendant conjunct the Aries Point, although whether I am Aries Rising or Pisces Rising is still debatable. Neverthelss, I have personal experience with this astrological phenomenon and would like to share my observations, particularly regarding those planets which have essential as well as accidental dignity in my natal chart--eighth house Pluto in Scorpio and tenth house Saturn in Capricorn.

Online research has not revealed much insight into natural charts other than short definitions which, more often than not, state exclusively that they are often used in natal charts whose birth time is unknown. In addition, Google searches bearing such keywords as "eighth house+Pluto+Scorpio" or "tenth house+Saturn+Capricorn" almost always reveal pages that explain the typical association of Pluto with Scorpio and the eighth house or Saturn with Capricorn and the tenth house. Indeed, my memory provides me with no examples of coherent descriptions synthesizing the influence of the sign/planet/house trio; thus, in typical Aries fashion I must try to create my own!

Although before I attempt to reinvent the wheel so to speak, I wish to quote two excerpts from manuu's thread astrology for all:

Quote:
EASY AND HARD CHARTS CONT-

THE signs and the natal houses correspond to each other respectively.but they operate on different planes.the sign energies are subtle and shows the inner man.the house show the external manifestations.so house influences dominate the physical and material life and are clearly expressed,unlike the sign energies.so houses dominate the signs in the material life.
in most cases the signs and houses do not coincide.for eg-the sign ARIES,which is the NATURAL FIRST HOUSE,fall in say-the 3'rd house of the natal chart and the 3'rd house corressponds to GEMINI.so we have to synthesise the 3'rd house influence and the influence of sign aries ,together.here the natural first house-aries ,has to mould its influence into the natal 3'rd house.
in case of libra ascendant and aries 7'th house,the synthesise becomes most complex,here the natural 7'th house-libra, becomes THE NATAL 1'st house and the natural first house aries becomes the NATAL 7'TH HOUSE.....SO THE NATAL HOUSES ARE JUST THE REVERSE OF THE NATURAL HOUSE.
libra ,the natural 7'th house ,is the natural significator of OTHERS.AND WHEN LIBRA is in the 1'st house(natal),the natural OTHERS has to mould itself and express itself in the NATAL 'SELF' signified by the natal first house.
similarily,the natural SELF becomes THE NATAL others .THERE IS COMPLETE REVERSAL OF ROLES.AND SO MOST DIFFICULT TO SYNTHESISE.(IRRESPECTIVE OF OTHER CHART FACTORS )
Quote:
EASY AND HARD CHARTS CONT-

when signs(the natural houses) and the natal houses coincide-that is ,when aries becomes the ascendant and libra the 7'th house,then the energies of both the natal house and the signs coincide and work together in the same direction.they do not contradict each other or work contrary to each other.
so charts with aries ascendant,becomes the most easy to synthesise and judge,as here the natal houses coincide with the natural houses and both the natal and the natural rulerships of the planets also coincide and are the same.
in this forum,ARIAN MAVRICK'S CHART becomes the easiest to synthesise.she has planetary concenteration in 1 'st and 10'th house,in angles,with only a few planets outside.her natal houses coincide with the natural houses(signs).this makes,her's the easiest chart to synthesise.
Arian Maverick
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  #4  
Unread 09-10-2006, 02:59 PM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Natural Order

Thank you for the information Arien, I was thinking also that when planets fall in the same house even if the chart is not natural it will be emphasized. Like Mercury in the third. Or maybe you might have Mercury in Gemini so I suppose a double emphasis is expressed.

I haven't thought about this much because I don't have a double emphasis on a placement. But on an aspects I do i.e Mercury in Pisces square Neptune. This would double the meaning of my Mercury in Pisces. No wonder I am so confused in life

But with you Arian like on your 8th house Pluto in Scorpio you have a triple emphasis. Or is this placement just more naturally expressed. Your right when you say there isn't much information out there, I will look for it because there should be an explanation for this. With placements is it a more natural expression rather than a double meaning.

I'm Confused.

Shining Ray
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Unread 09-10-2006, 03:37 PM
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Astrological Interchanges

Quote:
I haven't thought about this much because I don't have a double emphasis on a placement. But on an aspects I do i.e Mercury in Pisces square Neptune. This would double the meaning of my Mercury in Pisces. No wonder I am so confused in life
Shining Ray,

In his book Astrology Karma & Transformation, Stephen Arroyo briefly explains a concept called interchanges, which he defines as "any of the possible interactions between the essential twelve astrological principles." In a footnote on page xiii in the introduction of the book, he gives several examples of such interchanges for "those readers unfamiliar with this approach to astrology." Hopefully, I will not be violating any copyright laws by briefly describing the examples he provides:

Interchanges Between the Seventh and Tenth Principles:
  • Saturn in Libra
  • Saturn in the seventh house
  • Venus in Capricorn
  • Venus in the tenth house
  • All Venus-Saturn aspects
  • All squares between the seventh and tenth houses and between Libra and Capricorn

Interchanges Between the Fourth and Tenth Principles:
  • Moon in Capricorn
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Moon in the tenth house
  • Saturn in the fourth house
  • All Moon-Saturn aspects
  • All oppositions between the fourth and tenth houses and between Cancer and Capricorn

"If any individual chart contains two or more instances of one specific type of interchange, that particular dynamic would constitute at least a minor 'theme' in that person's life. If the chart contains three or more, it is likely that a major life theme would be so indicated."

Although this information probably deserves a thread of its own, I believe it is somehow relevant to the topic of natural charts because such charts often appear to have a clear emphasis upon a certain theme.

Arian Maverick
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  #6  
Unread 09-14-2006, 10:32 AM
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Re: Natural Order

What do you mean by natural order? Just that Aries is AC and each house then has the "natural" house with it?

I know a natural chart is when the asc of the sun's sign of the person is set at 0 deg. Thats what they use in periodicals to do weekly/monthly general forecasts for signs.

I have often wondered whether a "natural order" to my chart affects the strength of my natal planets. My chart is pretty penegrine really (in terms of where the planets are), so does it make my chart doubly peregrine?
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Unread 09-14-2006, 11:09 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Natural Order

I am still a bit confused on how the Natural Order works 23. I am not sure if planets are strengthened or not or more naturally expressed. Usually I have found an answer by now or my own view on how I think it should be interpreted. Maybe it is just me I am just not understanding it at the moment.

Shining Ray
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  #8  
Unread 09-14-2006, 02:13 PM
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Natural Order, to Ray

Ray,

This is why I use "keywords" to help people understand astrology. Let's take the example of:

Mercury focused in the 3rd house

using "keywords":

Mercury (thinking) focused in the 3rd house (thinking)

This indicates the person focuses on thinking.


Let's take:

Gemini modifying Mercury

using "keywords":

Gemini (thinking) modifying Mercury (thinking)

This indicates the person has strong "thinking" energy.


Let's take:

Libra Moon focused in the 7th house

Libra (relationships) Moon focused in the 7th house (relationships)

This indicates the person has strong focus on relationships.


Gemini modifying Mars focused in the 3rd house

Gemini (thinking) modifying Mars (being, also action) focused in the 3rd house (thinking)

A strong communicator indeed!


Scorpio modifying Pluto focused in the 8th house

Scorpio (transformation) modifying Pluto (transformation) focused in the 8th house (transformation)

Transformation, anyone?


You get the idea! Using keywords makes very clear the overall energy of the planet in the chart.


However, even using natural houses, it is also possible to get a planet which does NOT have a double or triple emphasis. For example, if Aries is on the cusp (edge) of the first house, a person still could have:

Taurus [the sign after Aries] modifying Mercury focused in the 1rst house

Taurus (physical) modifying Mercury (thinking/daily work) focused in the 1rst house (being)

In this case there is NO strong emphasis in the planet by itself, even though it is in a natural house.


All keyed up,

Tim
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  #9  
Unread 09-14-2006, 02:25 PM
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Re: Natural Order

Some astrologers use different house types too.
For example:
Placidus is used the most.

For more simpler interpretation some use Equal, Equal ( MC ), Null etc.
Houses are equal, expecialy Null type.
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Unread 09-14-2006, 02:30 PM
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Sign/Planet/House, to Maverick

Maverick,

You said:
Quote:
Indeed, my memory provides me with no examples of coherent descriptions synthesizing the influence of the sign/planet/house trio; thus, in typical Aries fashion I must try to create my own!
For a Sign/Planet/House synthesis approach...see link below, step 5!

Linking,

Tim
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  #11  
Unread 09-14-2006, 09:04 PM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Natural Order

Thanks Tim,

It was giving me a headache trying to work it out and as usual it was just me over complicating the subject . I understand Pluto in Scorpio 8th a lot more from what you said. The whole birth-death-rebirth of this placement. There must be a very strong urge for transformation for a person with this placement. Plus all the other meanings associated with Scorpio/Pluto/8th. If I have to read a meaning twice or more in interpreting a placement/aspect then it is emphasised

Shining Ray
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  #12  
Unread 09-14-2006, 09:48 PM
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Re: Natural Order

Early on in my astrological studies, before I discovered my true birth time, I had difficulty grasping the relationship between the signs and the houses and often wished, for simplicity sake, that I had an Aries Ascendant. It seems that the Universe has granted me this, yet now I am concerned about the extent of karma such a natal chart reveals.

Karma and Astrology

Quote:
The First House is the rising sign house and the childhood house. Planets in this first house under stress (square opposition or inconjunct to other planets), Saturn, or planets in Aries, will often reflect a Karma with yourself or with childhood. Anything to do with the self, meaning self-esteem, appearance, even vanity. There could be a personality Karma, a character Karma, or an identity Karma, especially during childhood, leading to unprocessed experiences. As soon as we become conscious, we realize that we are in negative territory. That is why we are forced to grow up quickly with planets in the first house, in Aries, and especially Saturn, which magnifies this effect.

The Second House would be a Karma concerning money (nine times out of ten), value, self-worth, love, or what is important in this life-cycle. These individuals sometimes appear agnostic to the world and do not appreciate the real meaning of love. There can also be obsessions with the material so the spiritual side is of often lacking.

The Third House would show a Karma with the mind. Planets in the third house under stress, in Gemini, sometimes indicates mental instability, psychological Karma, or mental illness if one is not strong enough to handle this kind of Karma. Some of the communication problems could be with brothers, sisters, neighbors, or even teaching. It is either that they're not heard right or they don't hear things the way they should. This extends to relating things to other's that is wrong.

The Fourth House planets or afflicted planets in Cancer can show Karma with the mother, feelings, residence, and security. Saturn is detriment in Cancer, so any tendency to have an emotional wall will be further strengthened. The fourth house also signifies past lives, so when you get your button pushed and have no idea why you react the way you do, it could be from a past life.

The Fifth House planets or afflicted planets in Leo would be a Karma with the family or creative endeavor, with power, and authority. In Leo, any Karma will be with the father, or no children, but in the fifth house it is with creativity, pets, enterprises and children.

The Sixth House planets or afflicted planets in Virgo, epitomize major Karma concerning work situations, health if you don't maintain it, and service due to a lack of it. It may also affect your judgment, and analytical ability.

The Seventh House planets or afflicted planets in Libra would epitomize lessons in love or relationships. A lack of balance between yourself and partners indicates another type of Karma too. Some of the problems that can manifest here concerns the obsession to get married, but often find themselves getting divorced. A heavy Karma could indicate a persecution complex.

The Eighth House planets or afflicted planets in Scorpio would show a major lesson in life concerning sensitivity, deep emotions, love, sex, intimacy and transformability or lack of the ability to transform, change, or metamorphosize. As with other water signs, the emotions can be contracted, and restricted. It's easy for these people to be celibate. There may be jealousy and obsessions with death or problems dealing with others dying.

The Ninth House planets or afflicted planets in Sagittarius would show Karma concerning philosophy, freedom, religion, justice, travel or lack of it, and sometimes being anchored to ones' life, work, job, family, home and responsibilities. Sometimes lessons concerning happiness—a contraction of happiness—are shown, Karmically speaking. That's why these people tend to get very moody and depressed.

The Tenth House would show a Karma with external aspects of life. Planets in the tenth house under stress, in Capricorn, would epitomize Karma with ones' career, authority, practicality and ambition.

The Eleventh House planets (under affliction) or planets in Aquarius or at least two in either signs or house would epitomize the Karma concerning groups, friends, goals, organization and direction in life. Also humanity or lack of it.

The Twelfth House planets or afflicted planets in Planets in Pisces would epitomize a Karma with oneself, in being you're own worst enemy. It is a very emotional Karma, indicating self-destruction and hidden events. Hidden events are not readily visible and can effect your life in the long term, because a decision or commitment was not made when it should have. Also there can be Karma with enemies, mankind, institutions, and hospitals. Saturn in Pisces or the twelfth could be a Karma with people that definitely identify themselves as your enemy, and who would also want to hurt you. It's also a lesson in emotions.
It seems that the key word here is epitomize. It is quite disconcerting to have such clear karmic indicators...

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Unread 09-15-2006, 09:35 AM
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Re: Natural Order

Thanks for info Tim and AM!
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