The birthchart of a Monster - manchester terrorist.

ashriia

Well-known member
I'm attaching the natal chart, and progressed chart of the terrorist in manchester for the date of attack, bear in mind; time of birth is unknown so it is a noon chart.

I've been looking over this chart, and thinking alot about it philosophically, like what is the purpose of a native being born to a chart like this. How would a native, use a chart configuration like this in a positive way. Because to be honest, if I saw a natal chart like this of anyone I were to meet I'd run, fast. To me, the configurations are just plain evil.

Let's take for instance the t-square, between saturn- ruler of his sun, pluto the ruler of his north node+venus, and mars. With its outlet- smack on lilith. Lilith and Pluto are both at critical degrees 29. Then to make matters worse he had another t-square this time involving jupiter, ruler of his moon in that ugly configuration.

I doubt he possessed the ability to empathize at all with anything or anyone. Because the placements that could have provided -empathy are tainted. Saturn is in pisces restricting that. And his venus in scorp is pretty much cursed.

Then you take a look at his progressed chart, saturn in exact aspect to the nodes - is probably an indicator of his death more than anything - since it ruled his sun. But look at mars square pluto both at 0 degrees. Then there was progressed lilith angular, at the same degree as his natal mars.

I know astrologers often say we are born with challenges, but looking at a chart like this, what is the purpose of the native?. Take a look at the north node in scorpio, and pluto being involved in that horrible t-square. It's almost as though fate indicated the day he was born that he would be a monster. He probably targeted young mostly girls because he knew they would be easy targets as seen by his saturn opposition mars.

It just has me thinking about whether natives can be born into this life to indeed commit evil, as a destiny, to set other events in motion.
Because looking at a chart like this, I fail to see how these configurations could have been integrated for positive use.

I'd be interested in hearing any opinions/thoughts/ or analysis of how the native could have used the t-squares positively.
 

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aleth3ia

Banned
I was thinking you were being so much catastrophic and that of course your view was influenced by all the bad that he caused... then I saw his chart.. lol
I laughed really, it's the portrait of doom o_O you're right.. woah!
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Notice that his natal stellium of Sun-Mercury-Neptune-Uranus in Capricorn is opposite to Cancer (Cancer in traditional mundane astrology is the ruling sign of the city of Manchester, England); that this same natal stellium being in Capricorn is the same rising sign of the Manchester bombing chart (0Capricorn 48 rising at the time of the bombing: 5/22/17 22:33 BST)

Also, his natal Lilith (29 Taurus), by simple symbolic progression, progresses to 21 Gemini: in the Manchester bombing chart, Mars is @ 21 Gemini, so his natal Lilith has progressed exactly to the place of Mars in the bombing chart.

By Pauline profection, his natal ascendant (Aries) has profected into his natal 10th whole sign house: which joins his ascendant with natal Neptune (dissolution) and natal Uranus (sudden radical acts, explosions), as well as with the natal Sun (fame) and natal Mercury (media)...10th house has to do with attainment of goals-in this case, international fame (Sun, Mercury) coupled with death (sudden violent death, Uranus) as martyrdom for an ideal (Neptune), this ideal being the cause of radical (Uranus) Isis-defined Islam (certainly a false ideal in reality, but one in which the subject wholly believed)...
 

demetraceres

Well-known member
You don't know the exact time of birth. The stars impel, they do not compel. Anything else is astrological determinism that may do more harm than good. It is this determinism that is monstrous. I do not believe in it and I am against it.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Astrology (natal) shows constitutional trends, channels of expression; if the individual does not rise in their inner nature, then these trends manifest; if the individual rises, then the individual overcomes the trends and channels. This person obviously did not rise in his inner nature, and thus the trends dominated over this individual.

I too do not believe in determinism, except for animals, and for the myriad humans who do not rise above their animal natures...
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Even regarding the houses as dubious, the planetary positions are not dubious, and they tell the story of this person's natal constitution and trends very clearly.
 

demetraceres

Well-known member
This person obviously did not rise in his inner nature, and thus the trends dominated over this individual.

I too do not believe in determinism, except for animals, and for the myriad humans who do not rise above their animal natures...

This person obviously did not rise in his inner nature, as myriad humans who support ideologies that are responsible for myriad deaths.
 

demetraceres

Well-known member
Every single terrorist can be called a monster - this action was in its evilness no different from any other terrorist action that has caused deaths of civilians. But behind suicidal terrorists there are those who are training and indoctrinating them - don't you think their charts should be even more evil?

How can astrology explain politics and the complex world of human violence?
 

ashriia

Well-known member
You don't know the exact time of birth. The stars impel, they do not compel. Anything else is astrological determinism that may do more harm than good. It is this determinism that is monstrous. I do not believe in it and I am against it.


Hi.

Please take a look at the chart, you are against astrological determinism, and think such is monstrous or my analysis of the chart is. Well that is your opinion, and I'm glad you offered it. But if you can please contribute to how you think that those t-squares in the chart involving the ruler of the sun could have been used in a positive way? With lilith being the "release" point for the t-squares. And the north node being in scorpio with the ruler involved in the t-square. I'm definitely all ears.

See because I look at the chart, and regardless of the houses being incorrect, the configurations and planets in the signs are indeed accurate with exception of the moon, give or take a few degrees.

So what you have here, is the ruler of the sun in opposition to mars. A saturn opposition mars aspect is already pretty tense/volatile, but then to be added to pluto. It often is seen in the charts of those with severe mean streaks/cruelty and/or serial killers. So then there is lilith at the other end of it. That's a pretty d*mn sinister configuration. I can't fathom how it could have been intended to be used in positive ways. A military career maybe? a hired killer? Which is the reason I opened the discussion in the posting also.. because as mentioned I wondered at it philosophically could it be possible that natives are born to be evil as a destiny, as a catalyst for events/change/ what have you? I know that is controversial to say and taboo ---way off in the restricted area of things not talked about but perhaps wondered at in passing. But I'd really like to discuss it with those astrologically inclined, granted in a respectful and philosophical manner.

I don't typically think like this, but looking at this chart got me thinking about it because all the placements just seem so destined to what the native carried out.
 
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ashriia

Well-known member
So what would you think you would see if you looked at the charts of the victims?

I more often than not only study the charts of victims of rape/murder violence, but haven't looked into victims of terrorism before. I would assume anyway for the victims of this horrible event to have had 5th house/3rd house/and 10th house associated with the ruler of the 8th/4th/nodes. Alongside hard aspects for accidents - mars/uranus or mars/pluto. I would assume that combination would have been necessary, but without seeing charts of victims of terrorism, it's only a guess at best.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
But behind suicidal terrorists there are those who are training and indoctrinating them - don't you think their charts should be even more evil?
How can astrology explain politics and the complex world of human violence?

Astrology can easily explain predisposition to violent behavior in the native. As far as world events go - leave that to the outer planet aspects. Pluto entered Capricorn with tremendous impact that is for certain. As did uranus entering aries.

As for those that indoctrinate terrorists- they are vile, for sure. But their charts look quite different. Their charts are more about power. Less about violence itself.
 

aleth3ia

Banned
Reconnecting the topic to determinism, and to potentially "bad chart", I'm adding the chart of my dear friend born on June the 6th, 1965, at 6 am. http://imgur.com/Yod2NEx
You'd say he was born to be a very abd person, a killer, or spending most of his life in prison, well, despite he's an addict, and not the kind of person you'd want your daughter to hang out with (he sells drugs), he's nevertheless a great person, a great friend, he has a daughter, and he risked his life at least 3 times, where he was almost dead, and here he is still.

Astra inclinant, sed non docunt. This always rings true.

This friend of mine didn't become a terrorist or an unlucky fellow, on the contrary he greatly enjoys his life as it is (although it's a very uncommon life)... probably the place where he's been growing up, the people he befriended, all helped to not make him do worse damages... we do have all the potential to do all we can..that is usually what we deeply want.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
Has any birth info been gathered on the father and brothers? They are also part of the "indoctrination"

That is indeed true. Its of course likely that alot of these aspects are shared also within the family. So would be interesting to take a look at them.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
I typically don't think in terms of a "bad chart" or evil. The word is a little foreign to my lexicon actually. But I was bothered by the chart for the terrorist, frustrated- bordering on angry.

And your friends chart is challenging, but I hardly too dark to be overcome. Look at the ruler for gemini/virgo - mercury being conjunct jupiter. So while the energies might be somewhat dark, jupiter is the saving grace. Even the "outlet" for the t-squares fall into the sign of saggitarius. I definitely wouldn't say that your friend is a "bad" person or has a bad chart, maybe just bad decision making, just like the rest of us.:joyful:

What really upset me with the terrorist chart, is all the "exit routes" in the chart were also volatile. Its just frustrating. People often think of how things could have been prevented/intervened when horrible things happen, I just do it astrologically. Hence, this post.


Astra inclinant, sed non docunt I agree for the most part. I do believe we are accountable for our actions strongly, but guess i'm having a crisis of faith seeing all the terrible sh*t humans do to other humans the more i study it. Probably shouldn't be doing it on a public forum though. :bandit: For that I apologize.


Reconnecting the topic to determinism, and to potentially "bad chart", I'm adding the chart of my dear friend born on June the 6th, 1965, at 6 am. http://imgur.com/Yod2NEx
You'd say he was born to be a very abd person, a killer, or spending most of his life in prison, well, despite he's an addict, and not the kind of person you'd want your daughter to hang out with (he sells drugs), he's nevertheless a great person, a great friend, he has a daughter, and he risked his life at least 3 times, where he was almost dead, and here he is still.

Astra inclinant, sed non docunt. This always rings true.

This friend of mine didn't become a terrorist or an unlucky fellow, on the contrary he greatly enjoys his life as it is (although it's a very uncommon life)... probably the place where he's been growing up, the people he befriended, all helped to not make him do worse damages... we do have all the potential to do all we can..that is usually what we deeply want.
 

aleth3ia

Banned
I like that we can exchange our deepest doubts and fears, astrological and not, on here. Because it's not easy to do that when you're face to face with someone, and even then, if the closeness to people is not lacking, then maybe they're not as versed for astrology as much as we are...
So thanks for taking it out, for us to think~

Human nature is really fascinating, and although it's true that everyone has the potential to do everything, and even more, out of their charts, it's even true that there are evil people out there, ready to do everything, and... since they are usually cases of a poor consciousness and self-development, then very probably you'll see the charts reflecting it.

The case of my friend is a lucky one, but pay attention, because I call him a "friend", I'm biased already; to most people around him, he's a very annoying and problematic person... so that plays ok with me, because of my aspects, but not to most people around.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Every possible birthdate is shared by many people all over the world. You don't know this guy's birth time, so all you have is a speculative chart that's shared by everyone born on the same day. Are all of those people monsters?

If his chart were the deciding factor, everyone born on December 31st, 1994 would've just bombed Manchester.

Rather, I see his chart pointing to his motivations for what he did. Anyone is capable of committing an evil act. All their chart is going to determine is what would be likely to motivate them if they do it, and maybe some predisposition to what kind of evil act it is. But that is, again, if they do it.

If we had his correct houses, it would be even more telling, but going by planets alone, this chart as a whole looks like someone who would be motivated by ideals to become a warrior. Other people with the same (or nearly the same) chart might be serving in the military or giving their lives over to activism. He committed a solitary act of war, apparently motivated by religious and political ideology.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
Every possible birthdate is shared by many people all over the world. You don't know this guy's birth time, so all you have is a speculative chart that's shared by everyone born on the same day. Are all of those people monsters?

If his chart were the deciding factor, everyone born on December 31st, 1994 would've just bombed Manchester.


I respect your opinion on that.

Houses do indeed play a major role. But I can tell you that I've researched a few people born on the same day as myself, who are living different life styles-were raised differently financially, but still are very similar in personality as myself and have similar parental relationships amongst some other habits. One happens to be famous so I can gather information quite readily. I was in acting school as a kid, but disliked it due to 12th house placements. Whereas this person, probably loved it due to house placements.
So maybe some are monsters in some way, maybe others integrated it in their nature via careers as an outlet. But didn't engage in committing a terrorist act due to differing house placements and being not likely to commit them due to nationality/culture/upbringing. Because that is all it would take IMO, the core self would still be largely the same in some fashion.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Every possible birthdate is shared by many people all over the world. You don't know this guy's birth time, so all you have is a speculative chart that's shared by everyone born on the same day. Are all of those people monsters?

If his chart were the deciding factor, everyone born on December 31st, 1994 would've just bombed Manchester.

Rather, I see his chart pointing to his motivations for what he did. Anyone is capable of committing an evil act. All their chart is going to determine is what would be likely to motivate them if they do it, and maybe some predisposition to what kind of evil act it is. But that is, again, if they do it.

If we had his correct houses, it would be even more telling, but going by planets alone, this chart as a whole looks like someone who would be motivated by ideals to become a warrior. Other people with the same (or nearly the same) chart might be serving in the military or giving their lives over to activism. He committed a solitary act of war, apparently motivated by religious and political ideology.


Any chart shows potentials, trends, tendencies, and these same trends and tendencies can express in different directions or channels, depending upon yet other factors, such as the doctrine of subsumption-wherein family charts modify the individual birth chart as to trends and tendencies fulfilled or otherwise-and also as an example of subsumption, the modification of a particular individual chart by the chart of the organization, sect, or other close association the individual becomes a part of. These subsumption modifications make a big difference in the WAY in which potential trends and tendencies shown in the natal chart will express in actual life.

Regardless of how many others were born on the subjects birthdate, nonetheless the POTENTIAL for his violent act-his trends and tendencies allowing the possibility of his commission of those violent acts-were clearly and decidedly present in this nativity, and support the astrological hypothesis that the astrological signature for any event of significance, is ALWAYS present in the chart of that event.
 
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