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Unread 03-12-2012, 10:07 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

THE PSYCHOPATH IN THE HOROSCOPE

The psychiatric term psychopath (sociopath, antisocial personality, character disorder) is ill-defined. There is no established clinical symptomatology, and in fact the condition is not recognized as a “mental disorder.” The psychopath, as often as not, does not meet the psychiatric criteria for either psychosis or neurosis. Yet the condition is very real, very disruptive to the lives of both the psychopath and all of those with whom he comes into contact, all too often is the root cause of social mayhem and the death of innocents, and is probably far more common than any other mental disorder apart from, possibly, schizophrenia. No reliable statistical rate of incidence is available, because the psychopath so often remains undiagnosed, and is an expert at disguising his condition. Probably at least 4-5% of the total population is psychopathic, a huge number of people devoid of conscience.

The psychopathic personality has no conscience, feels no guilt or remorse for his actions, is totally lacking any empathy or feeling (apathy), holds himself beyond any responsibility for his actions and their consequences, is focused entirely on the self and its interests. One of the most telling traits of this condition is emotional emptiness, an apathetic attitude, absence of any real personal attachment to anything; the world is reduced to concrete facts which contain no moral or emotional value to the subject. True passion is virtually non-existent, with even sex seeming to be more a matter of simple physical release or even less. The psychopath is incapable of sustaining enduring personal relationships because there is no real and deep emotional attachment to anything. With utter freedom from any pangs of conscience or guilt, the psychopath is free to do whatever he wants. Because most people do have a conscience, the ice water in the veins of the psychopath is incomprehensible to them and it is therefore easy for the psychopath to hide his aberrations from the world at large; the cold-blooded nature of the psychopath is so bizarre, so completely outside of the normal person’s experience that they seldom are even aware of the condition, cannot imagine such a pitiless and ruthless creature. To the psychopath there is nothing immoral, unethical, neglectful or selfish that he will not do, without a second thought. He will deliberately, intentionally and methodically set about hurting another person at his whim. Very often the psychopath is highly intelligent, socially charming, clever and witty, and commonly very manipulative (although the general traits contained within the personality can run the full spectrum of human qualities). Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites.

Historical figures whom I would type as psychopathic include Hitler, Charles Manson, Mohammed, Idi Amin, Napoleon Bonaparte, John Rockefeller, the Marquis de Sade, and a host of other leading historical figures. An interesting and rather shocking side note is the fact that the behavior of corporations* displays all of the hallmarks of the psychopathic personality. If this is true (and it is), it means that our world is wholly dominated by psychopaths who are dictating the conditions of our everyday life and molding our future as a species. Welcome to Loony Bin Earth, the solar system’s largest and most modern insane asylum.

I believe that all of the symptoms, attitudes, and behaviors of the psychopath can be summed up in one idea: Concern only with the self and its interests. Everything and everyone else is nothing more than an extension of the self, created wholly for the pleasure and benefit of the self. People carrying the burden of a conscience are seen as gullible fools who exist to be used by the psychopath for whatever purposes suit him, and are expendable. Therefore, deceit and lying to achieve one’s ends is simply a useful expedient. Harm to or destruction of others and their support systems – even for sadistic pleasure – is perfectly acceptable. Disregard for and standing above and beyond the laws intended for lesser beings -- or any other behavior – is permitted the psychopath, who must see himself as the incarnation of the divine and omnipotent.

Of one psychopathic subject under study, it is said that “Beauty and ugliness, except in a very superficial sense, goodness, evil, love, horror, and humor have no actual meaning, no power to move him. He is, furthermore, lacking in the ability to see that others are moved. It is as though he were colorblind, despite his sharp intelligence, to this aspect of human existence. It cannot be explained to him because there is nothing in his orbit of awareness that can bridge the gap with comparison. He can repeat the words and say glibly that he understands, and there is no way for him to realize that he does not understand.” – The Mask of Sanity, Hervey Clekey, M.D., 5th Edition, p.40 In other words, he lacks human feelings, emotions, values.

With this brief description of the condition in hand, how does the astrologer determine if the native of a particular horoscope is a psychopath? As our example we will use Adolf Hitler (20 April 1889, 1830 LMT, Braunau-am-Inn, Austria.) You can pull up Hitler’s chart at http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Main_Page

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Unread 03-12-2012, 10:09 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part II

In order to truly understand any horoscope, we must take the whole chart into account at all times. There is no single position or aspect that indicates “a psychopath.” In other words, this aberration, like any other characteristic or quality of an individual, is shown by an “accumulation of evidence” garnered from the whole horoscope, and not any single factor. Standard procedure in horoscope interpretation is to begin with an overview of the entire chart before examining the particulars. The more general or universal features of the chart determine the functioning of the specific.

The most general of all chart features is the overall pattern of planetary distribution. Without reference to any one planet, what sort of pattern do we see in the sky? Hitler’s chart shows the planets divided into three separate and distinct groups. The largest group is that assembly of planets from Saturn in the 10th House to Mercury at the western horizon. The second group is the conjunction of Jupiter and Moon, intercepted and debilitated in the 3rd House, and the final and predominant figure is the solitary Uranus, just above the horizon in the 12th House. This pattern is irregular and quite uncommon. It indicates a misfit, a person who may have difficulty feeling comfortable in conventional circumstances. In this type of pattern, that planet which stands alone (known as the reins planet) is brought into High Focus in the personality and life. Here that planet is Uranus, and Uranus, like the reins on a horse, directs the life. A planet brought to High Focus through its position within the over-all chart pattern rises to Superlative expression of its normal nature; it becomes a sort of super-planet.

Uranus, by its inherent nature, brings an urge for independence. Revolutionary tendencies are strong; the native will in some fashion overthrow or reform existing patterns. Actions are often unpredictable, sudden and upsetting. Uranus is agitation in all of its forms, fanatical insistence on self-governance and personal liberty, little regard for others. This planet’s nature is dry, impersonal, detached, unemotional. It is original, unique, sometimes deviate. The action of Uranus usually has repercussions in the broader social arena, goes beyond the individual. In this sense it indicates large-scale ideals carried to the point of achievement. Uranus rejects any authority but its own, and is apt to pay any price for the liberty to think and act according to very personal whims. Uranus comes out of nowhere with extreme force and powerful effect. Uranus can be indifferent in almost every way; he disregards the feelings of others, shows little interest in what is not of direct concern to him. Provided he attains his ends, side effects and collateral damage are of little interest to him. With Mercury powerful on the western angle in the self-centered Aries opposing Uranus, there is a constant nervous high-tension, sudden and erratic outbursts, a highly critical nature, radical ideas, restlessness, audacity, defiance and a strongly adventurous nature that leads to trouble. Hitler is very experimentative, unconventional in outlook, bridling at any restraint. Mental balance and stability may come into question. With Uranus in high focus the above traits come to prominence in Hitler’s personality and life; they are what guide him into life. Uranus in the 12th House suggests a tendency to create chaos. The 12th House has to do with self-defeating and self-destructive tendencies; it also signifies isolation by whatever means, including psychological self-isolation. The conjunction with the Ascendant shows that the above traits will be directly projected onto the external world in a compelling display of the individual will. Hitler is quickly responsive to the surrounding environment, highly opportunistic, and in his turn has a strong effect on his surrounding world; note the idea of chaos, upset, overthrow mentioned earlier. The contact at the Ascendant implies unrest, disruption, causing mischief. There is a special power of imposing the self on the inner thoughts of others. Here we find an uncanny ability to attract others who are unconventional or socially rebellious; magnetism. Intimidation may be used as a means of imposing the personal will on others. Hitler has a powerful urge to display his unique individuality, to attain prominence.

Uranus’ position within the pattern, its role as reins planet, is an Accidental Dignity. Accidental dignities are established by relative position, activity, and other such accidental celestial events; they imply things that are based on environmental or adventitious forces and are rooted in the socio-cultural milieu in which the native is cast or accidents of fate. They tend to be more active and obvious in the life than the essential dignities. Essential dignities are based wholly on sign position, and the two types of dignity are different in quality. Essential dignity implies qualities that are deep, inherent, innate, immutable. In Hitler’s chart Venus is the sole dispositor of the map. Of itself, this is an extremely powerful position. The influence of a sole dispositor is felt throughout the whole fiber of the being and dominates the life on the deepest level. But Venus is not brought to prominence and power solely because it disposes the map. On the contrary, it is superlatively emphasized in many ways. First, Venus is lord of the horoscope.
Second we find her retrograde, an event seen in only about 8% of all charts. Third is her partile and mutually applying conjunction to Mars, who is abjectly under her dominion. Fourth is the close square to the elevated Saturn – and these three behold each other through antiscions. Fifth are the connections by parallel (with very high declination) to both Moon and the nodal axis, both intercepted. Any time a planet is so over-emphasized, is brought to such extreme prominence and power in a chart, we are apt to see a very difficult lopsidedness in the personality. Remember, too, that the chart pattern is unconventional, shows an outsider, a misfit.

Venus retrograde (and keep in mind that she is both sole dispositor and lord of the horoscope, as well as directly disposing the powerfully active Uranus) in any chart indicates unconventional values not held by the mass of men, emotional withdrawal, inversion, a sense of dissatisfaction, and an austere or ascetic lifestyle. The partile conjunction to Mars – totally dominated by the Venus just described – suggests that Hitler was prone to plunging ahead precipitously and let the chips fall where they may; disregard for the consequences of his actions. There is a dangerous lack of restraint. He may repeat his mistakes habitually, seeming not to learn from the past. He must be busy at all times, and throws himself energetically into whatever attracts his immediate interest. He is able to take any eventuality in stride, and is undisturbed by the circumstances under which he must work, or the tools he must employ. He may be oblivious to the real limitations of the present situation; short-sightedness. This conjunction is often improvident. The normal sex drive may be sublimated, diverted to other channels, or put on the back burner. This conjunction often produces a very aggressive, competitive and combative personality. There is a touchy sensitivity, a hair trigger. A curious mixture of charm with fiery aggression is often present. This trait impels the native toward a public persona and activities involving close human encounter. As with Uranus, imposition or restriction by others is not tolerated, and there is a sudden, excessive and often explosive release of energy. Relationships tend toward the immediate; there may be a love ‘em and leave ‘em attitude. Inflamed passions are likely. Powerful and enduring attraction to violence.

It should not be necessary to provide more detail. We see both of the most powerful planets in this chart strongly indicating traits typical – symptomatic – of a psychopathic personality. Saturn in Leo in the Tenth surely indicates a lust for position and power, and he is severely afflicted by the dominant Venus – the square also involving Mars, Venus ruling Saturn’s ruler Sun, the antiscion connection... Meanwhile, the Moon is in her detriment, closely associated with the fallen Jupiter, and both are at the service of (ruled by) the malignant Saturn. Further, there is the association of Moon and her nodes with Venus by parallel. Mercury, rash and headstrong in the Afflicted Mars’ sign of Aries exactly confronts the Ascendant and forms the only planetary opposition in the chart against Uranus in Cardinal signs. I think the jury is in. Closer examination of these positions will further underline and amplify the psychopathic nature of this man. We can now see how to recognize a psychopathic personality in any horoscope.

I have not developed the ideas here fully because of space requirements. Closer study will reveal how incisive astrology is. It can be seen here how the horoscope reveals not only events and conditions we might meet in the external world, but the psychological makeup which creates them.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-12-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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Unread 03-12-2012, 10:39 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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...An interesting and rather shocking side note is the fact that the behavior of corporations* displays all of the hallmarks of the psychopathic personality. If this is true (and it is), it means that our world is wholly dominated by psychopaths who are dictating the conditions of our everyday life and molding our future as a species. Welcome to Loony Bin Earth, the solar system’s largest and most modern insane asylum
Some Myths and misconceptions held by the general population about what exactly 'a psychopath' is are discussed at this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqkp4...eature=related

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"We have established a society that rewards psychopathy. It is absolutely, positively the most valuable talent there is. If you're charming, can lie smoothly, are completely selfish and self-interested but able to cover it up, have no ethics or empathy and can back-stab without guilt, you're going straight to the top of the heap. That is what we have decided, as a species, to reward. We have a term for honest, empathetic, unselfish people too. We call them 'losers.'
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Unread 03-13-2012, 12:37 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

A blog talk radio show discussing "Puzzling People, the Labyrinth of the Psychopath" by Thomas Sheridan. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/grok-th...yZx3E.facebook Topics discussed include the possible role played by the psychopaths in human evolution, their main characteristics and ruses they employ, the motivating factors governing their actions, the brain related mechanisms, the nonsense of the alternative media and much more
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Unread 03-13-2012, 01:33 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I'm afraid I have to agree with your quote regarding rewarding the psychopath.

I'm happy being a loser. But then maybe I haven't lost as much as I've gained.

But the reality of the world is that it is dominated by the psychopath.
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Unread 03-13-2012, 06:54 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

You guys should cultivate compassion on yourselves because neither of you gains anything by this kind of talk. Now psychopaths, sociopaths whatever label you call them , are indeed power hungry but you should know that in the next life they will lose their power, so its wise to be compassionate on their soul. In the next life, life as we know it on earth is upside down. The so called "losers" without jobs, wives, the virgins, the outcasts, the lowly, the saintly, the very poor, etc. are the ones who are exalted and the rich, powerful suffer because of what they've done with all the responsibility they've had. Its not always the case but most talked about throughout near death experiences and theology.
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Unread 03-13-2012, 08:19 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Dream on, Friend. Eternity is right here, right now...and so is Heaven. I don't quite understand how "this kind of talk" implies lack of compassion. While you are busy waiting for the next life, I will focus on living this one, thanks.

P.S. My relationship with God, Jesus and all the saints is my affair and does not fall in your field of competence or responsibility. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

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Unread 03-13-2012, 07:06 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
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The Golden Rule:The principle of treating others as one wishes to be treated. It involves empathizing and perceiving others also as "I" or "self". The Golden Rule will never inspire a Psychopath. Psychopathy is characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.

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Unread 03-13-2012, 10:33 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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You guys should cultivate compassion on yourselves because neither of you gains anything by this kind of talk. Now psychopaths, sociopaths whatever label you call them , are indeed power hungry but you should know that in the next life they will lose their power, so its wise to be compassionate on their soul. In the next life, life as we know it on earth is upside down. The so called "losers" without jobs, wives, the virgins, the outcasts, the lowly, the saintly, the very poor, etc. are the ones who are exalted and the rich, powerful suffer because of what they've done with all the responsibility they've had. Its not always the case but most talked about throughout near death experiences and theology.
I agree that the cultivation of compassion is a universal necessity

Military institutions are tailor-made for psychopathic killers. The 5% human males who feel no remorse about killing fellow human beings make the best soldiers. In “On Killing”, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman highlights that military science is about overcoming instinctive human reluctance to kill members of our own species.

Marshall proved that in all previous wars, a tiny minority of soldiers - the 5% who are natural-born psychopaths, and perhaps a few temporarily insane imitators - did almost all the killing. Normal men just went through the motions and, if at all possible, refused to take the life of an enemy soldier, even if that meant giving up their own. The implication: Wars are ritualized mass murders by psychopaths of non-psychopaths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Hon3AzMO6vs
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Unread 03-14-2012, 01:06 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Jupiter, the first recorded "Post-expulsion" sin was not only murder, but fratricide. Remember Cain and Abel? I question your author's basic premise, that there is "a natural aversion to killing members of our own species." That is simply ludicrous.

You obviously have never been in combat. The imaginary general Marshall had a good imagination.

Neptune, very observant. But it seems you missed the point of my thread, which is READ THE WHOLE CHART. In Hitler's chart Uranus is in High Focus due to its solitary positiion with relationship to the Whole Pattern of Planetary Distiribution. A planet in high focus assumes a special prominence and power in any chart. I pointed to Venus not only because she is Lord of the Horoscope and Sole Dipositor of the Horoscope, but also because she is emphasized beyond the point of normalcy which always indicates a pschological imbalance (planets are symbols of psychic [psychological] energies, and when one energy dominates all others beyond normal bounds, an imbalance occurs.) The Chart Pattern itself is a Splay Type, which symbolizes a misfit, an aberrant personality and so on. Hitler's chart is full of other symbols that point toward a psychopathic nature. It is this accumulation of evidence that must be seen in the diagnosis of any sort of condition, not just psychopathy. The whole point of my thread was to show that the competent astrologer never relies on a single aspect to pass such judgments. I guess I'm not a very good communicator.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 01:29 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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JUPITERASC, the first recorded "Post-expulsion" sin was not only murder, but fratricide. Remember Cain and Abel?
Can the event you mention be proven Historically?
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I question your author's basic premise, that there is "a natural aversion to killing members of our own species." That is simply ludicrous.
Simply ludicrous? That is your opinion and not everyone would agree
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You obviously have never been in combat. The imaginary general Marshall had a good imagination.
Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall July 18, 1900 – December 17, 1977 was a chief U.S. Army combat historian during World War II and the Korean War who became an official Army combat historian, and knew many of the war's most well known Allied commanders, including George S. Patton and Omar N. Bradley. He conducted hundreds of interviews of both enlisted men and officers regarding their combat experiences, and was an early proponent of oral history techniques. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._Marshall

In the past, the soldier willing to kill for his country was heroic, while one who refused to fight was cowardly. The truth, as it turned out, was that the normative soldier hailed from the psychopathic five percent. The sane majority, would rather die than fight. The implication was norms for soldiers' behaviour in battle had been set by psychopaths in control of the military as an institution & in control of society's perception of military affairs & exercised an enormous amount of power in seemingly sane, normal society.



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Unread 03-14-2012, 02:28 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Sorry if you feel offended Neptune. Sure wasn't my intention.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 12:42 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

And what is your personal experience of combat?

It is well and good to use as reference the esteemed General Marshall, who was a historian and not a field officer. But what of your personal, gut experience? It's fun being an armchair quarterback -- you don't get bruises and broken bones that way.

I wonder if the farmers at Lexington and Concord were psychopaths. They started a war.

I wonder if my distant ancestor, Henry Axtell, who was killed by Indian warriors (were they psychopaths?) at Sudbury, Massachusetts during King Philip's War in 1676 was a psychopath?

We have no disagreement on the sad and rather frightening fact that our world is and has been dominated by the psychopathic personality. I made that statement in the first post to this thread. But when you refer man's reluctance to kill others of his species, I question the factual basis of your belief.

It is now well documented that our nearest biological relatives, the chimpanzees with whom we share a common ancestor, conduct long-term genocidal wars the goal of which is to secure more territory for the tribe. Murder is a commonplace among the chimps, in widely separated populations. They go out in gangs looking for victims; it is purposeful behavior.

A casual glance at our own nature and history shows us to be the most fearsome, dangerous and blood-thirsty predator that ever walked the face of the Earth. The atlatl was invented tens of thousands of years before the hoe or plow. In Central Asia shelters were made of the ribs of the mammoth. Much of what is known of prehistoric man comes from finds of arrow and spear heads -- the mark of the vegetarian.

If man has such aversion to killing his own, I wonder why it was necessary to include "Thou shalt not kill" in the Mosaic Law? If we think about that, there is nothing inherently wrong or sinful in killing another human being. Ultimately -- and without the exclusively human judgment of good and evil that has its roots in the pleasure/pain principle -- there is no good and evil. Things simply are. Life feeds on life, necessarily; killing is the norm. What created such laws, and such a concept as "killing another is evil, sinful" springs out of the sense of self-preservation. For if I allow you to follow your natural bent and kill our neighbor, it is possible that I might be your next victim. Therefore the social group says "Thou shalt not kill" because it benefits each individual, helps protect his life. It is a practical matter given the status of divine commandment. If your distant ancestors had not killed (or at least applied the threat of death to) the members of some other tribal group in the struggle over the water hole and the prime hunting grounds, you and I would not be holding this conversation. It was the strong and aggressive who survived and prospered and had children. It is quite possible that our biological evolution required the psychopathic personality to insure our survival. And certainly there is not one among us here today who, under the right circumstances, is not capable of psychopathic behaviors.

It is not necessary to prove Cain and Abel. That is a symbolic account, not of a specific event, but of human nature.

I started this thread with the purpose of showing that, in astrology, it is necessary to "see" the whole chart in order to make any judgment regarding a person's character. The psychopath was a handy "type" to use for the purpose. It would be nice, from my perspective at least, if we could return to that topic.

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Unread 03-14-2012, 04:26 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Of necessity we all have distant ancestors greybeard - who knows, many of whom were squabbling with/battling with each other - perhaps even regarding who had fought in the most wars and whether "my war record is better than your war record"
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It is now well documented that our nearest biological relatives, the chimpanzees with whom we share a common ancestor, conduct long-term genocidal wars the goal of which is to secure more territory for the tribe. Murder is a commonplace among the chimps, in widely separated populations. They go out in gangs looking for victims; it is purposeful behavior.
You have mentioned chimpanzees - interesting....
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http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/...himp/12gevcqrv
The Chimpanzee mind has greater ability than previously thought
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:54 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

You have not mentioned astrology -- interesting.

I have told my son that before he marries a woman he should get to know her mother well. Observation shows that cultural and hereditary traits are passed down through the generations. Which is why I resemble a chimpanzee more than I do a dragonfly. Behaviors that lead to success are repeated across time. When a rain comes ostrich chicks will sit down wherever they are and wait it out; it is a deeply embedded behavioral instinct. The ostrich is for all intents and purposes a dinosaur -- the instinct is ancient. Six million years -- about the span of time since we parted company with the chimp -- is but the blink of an eye in evolutionary time. I suspect we share a lot of behavioral traits with the chimp, inherited from long ago because they have proved successful survival mechanisms -- despite our enlarged frontal lobes, which serve as much to expand our arrogance (thinking ourselves superior beings, above the animals) as they do to endow us with rational thought.

You have not mentioned combat -- interesting.

All of your comments to date have been quotations from books, websites or films. No original thought proceeding from your own frontal lobe has been presented. No comment regarding personal experience of life has been offered. -- interesting.

You have not offered an opinon on whether Henry Axtell was psychopathic or not -- interesting.

Thomas and Mary Axtell sailed from England about the year 1641 and came to Sudbury with two children. Henry was about a year old then. Mary's elder brother William Rice was one of the leaders of the Sudbury settlement, which is why they settled there. About 5 years after their arrival Thomas died, leaving Mary a widow and their then 3 children orphans. Six months later Mary wed a neighbor, a widower with children himself. He treated Henry as his own son. Soon afterward the family moved 8 miles west to Marlborough. They were among the founding families of that settlement. Henry came of age in time to be on the founding charter of that town, and became a land-owning farmer. King Philip's War came along, and Marlborough was destroyed three times. It was compulsory throughout the colony at that time that men keep firearms and undergo periodic training in their use and military drill, as a measure of self-defense. Henry was going to the aid of Sudbury, which was under attack, with a group of 50 or so other colonial militia when they were ambushed and massacred by the Indians. My take on the whole affair is that neither the Indians nor the Engish farmers were psychopaths. They were simply doing what mankind has done since its beginnings, which is to try to establish and hold land necessary for their well-being. Killing others is involved in that process. The chimpanzee does exactly the same thing, sans enlarged frontal lobe.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-14-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 09:03 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Interesting...
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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
...The chimpanzee does exactly the same thing, sans enlarged frontal lobe.
Evidence that Humans consistently failed a Memory Test that was completed easily by a Chimpanzee
http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/the-memory-chimp/12gevcqrv
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Unread 05-03-2012, 04:47 PM
researcher researcher is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-b...+Italy&lang=en

Please, could you read into this chart? The guy in question seems to show signs of a Psychopath! He has made unbelievable claims, like he was a mafia boss and now he has a new identity. Now anybody with a new identity would not disclose this information. (but either way still psychopath)Also everything with him is vague and he moves around a lot, he talks about himself and does not listen. When I first met him, he was the most biggest charmer and loveable character I have ever come across. Then suddenly turned nasty, I only actually met him in person 5 times and he told me this news only recently through texting. (Crazy) I had to calmly deal with him to break away and convince him Im not good for him. He worries me as he tells me he is also a hacker.

I'm a Leo with Scorpio rising and Aries moon, I attract mad men!
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Unread 05-03-2012, 05:30 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

hi greybeard,

i liked your analysis on hitlers chart using marc edmund jones patterns too. i am not sure it is possible to see the pycho or socio path in astrology charts, although in some way it would seem there is.. i realize this is a contradiction of sorts.. i think the best we can do is get a strong feel for a chart as i think you have done with hitlers chart and go with that.. i think the moon/jupiter conjunction is just one of the many factors to his chart that interfere with his ability to empathize with others... the uranus is pivotal as you point out and in opposition to mercury in aries another push in a direction of being unduely self-centered with great personal ambition thrown in as well.. saturn in leo is another confirmation on this and is the most elevated planet in square to venus/mars and by sign to sun.. some of the cross overs to israels chart are indeed interesting too..


i agree with your observations on jupiter asc as well which you have articulated below.. 'interesting' is an 'interesting' descriptive word for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
You have not mentioned astrology -- interesting.


All of your comments to date have been quotations from books, websites or films. No original thought proceeding from your own frontal lobe has been presented. No comment regarding personal experience of life has been offered. -- interesting.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 05:41 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

hi researcher,

i just looked at this chart in a superficial manner, but it reminded me of something i was just reading the other day in one of morins books, a well known astrologer from france from the 1600's.. he discusses the idea of mutual reception between planets in signs each other rule and discounts some of the popular theories around mutual reception.. in this chart example you offered we see saturn in leo - same position as hitler, a generational position in itself, in opposition to sun in aquarius.. both positions are in their fall and they are in an opposition aspect.. according to morin neither placement is helped by this mutual reception, but instead are only hindered further.. another example of this in your friends chart and which morin also discusses is moon in aries with mars in cancer.. according to morin there is no benefit from either position in its fall.. your friends chart has an unduly number of planets in very weak cellestial - sign) state..

we also note the mercury square uranus - hitler had the opposition, and we note how this square in your friends chart is on the angles, as the opposition was in hitlers chart.. both charts have a greater emphasis on the fixed mode, but whereas hitler had some mutability to his chart - very little to none if you exclude the outer planets, your friend also has none even when we include the outer planets.. interesting chart and thanks for sharing.. perhaps greybeard would like to comment on your friends chart..

Quote:
Originally Posted by researcher View Post
http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-b...+Italy&lang=en

Please, could you read into this chart? The guy in question seems to show signs of a Psychopath! He has made unbelievable claims, like he was a mafia boss and now he has a new identity. Now anybody with a new identity would not disclose this information. (but either way still psychopath)Also everything with him is vague and he moves around a lot, he talks about himself and does not listen. When I first met him, he was the most biggest charmer and loveable character I have ever come across. Then suddenly turned nasty, I only actually met him in person 5 times and he told me this news only recently through texting. (Crazy) I had to calmly deal with him to break away and convince him Im not good for him. He worries me as he tells me he is also a hacker.

I'm a Leo with Scorpio rising and Aries moon, I attract mad men!
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Unread 05-03-2012, 06:34 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I'm looking at Hitler's chart and wondering how many other people were born on that same spring evening who were just regular schlemiels like the rest of us... at least some of those babies would have had a nearly identical chart.

I follow your reasoning on the Venus retrograde, and it's persuasive in terms of how Hitler played out the natal cards in his hand. Also, Jupiter can destabilize the Moon, and Uranus certainly can destabilize the mind. (Mental instability seems to have run rampant in his family.) But I don't see any of this as a hallmark of a psychopath... only of ONE crazy man who had influence far beyond the scope of his chart.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:03 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I haven't looked at the chart from Researcher, but would like to submit a couple of general comments.

I agree with you Sandstone -- or is it Morin I should be agreeing with -- that mutual receptions very often aggravate difficulties rather than "make it all better". I have seen that in too many charts to ignore it.

Regarding the psychopath/sociopath/character-defective personality (these are all terms used at one time or another in psychiatry for the same condition, which goes to show the very vague conception of just what the "symptoms" of the psychopath are)... The best we can do with astrology is to see the symptoms in the chart, and when they seem preponderant judge that this personality "leans toward" a psychopathic state to a greater or lesser degree. It seems pretty generally agreed among people who study "abnormal psychology" that roughly 5% of the general population -- anywhere and everywhere -- is psychopathic.

Some of the usual features of the psychopathic personality are:

1. Emotional Detachment. Barriers to intimate relationship.
2. Total lack of feelings of remorse or guilt. The personality is incapable of empathy.
3. Extreme ego-centricity. Thoughts are wholly centered on the self and its interests. Others are seen as objects to be used and discarded, as simple obstacles to be removed, etc. Narcissism accompanies the condition.
4. Highly manipulative tendencies. Whatever means are available to attain the desired ends are acceptable to the psychopath, no qualms. The psychopath is generally charming, and knows how to tell you what you want to hear. Implied here is a high sensitivity to the desires and motivations of others, an innate ability to quickly find the "buttons" that will permit manipulation of another.

When I look at my own chart, I see a psychopath. But I'm a gentle, loving, caring, altruistic, self-sacrificing guy. Just ask me. I'll tell you whatever you want to hear. Quite seriously, my own chart shows many of the qualities of the psychopath, but my outlook on life and behavior do not follow the pattern. So what is it in my chart that "deters" the antisocial elements from taking command of the personality?

So in diagnosing this or any other condition, we have to be cautious, carefully weigh all factors and see where that leads our judgment. A horoscope shows "potentials". It generally shows the "probability, or likelihood" of those potentials manifesting in a certain way, but does not give us a locked-in certainty.

On the other hand, I am always amazed by the intimate and highly detailed portrait of a person to be seen in a horoscope.

Researcher.....If you suspect this guy is psychopathic......trust your gut. You don't need a chart. If you are strongly masochistic, perhaps you've found your soul-mate. If not, take reasonable precautions to protect yourself without becoming fearful or worried-anxious. Fear is a horrible and very powerful enemy; it paralyzes us and deadens us to life.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:22 PM
PD187540 PD187540 is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I'm very proud to say that I do have plenty of psychopathic tendencies....and people love me for it! That beautiful triple conjunction of Pluto-Saturn-MC in Scorpio (all opposing my Moon) is the supreme psychopath.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:25 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Judy, the difference between Hitler and his contemporaries (those born on or about his birthday) lies in his time/place of birth. I use the Jones patterns heavily... I study the pattern and structure of a chart in depth before I move on toward an interpretation...and in Hitler we find the "Splay" pattern (the misfit, the special genius, etc) with Uranus as the Reins planet....the "controlling energy" within that psychological pattern. His time and place of birth put Uranus conjunct the Ascendant, in the 12th, and the Uranus-Mercury opposition squarely on the horizon, and this is what brings the aspect to such power and prominence in his person. In other words, it is this Accidental dignity that imbues him with the power; the positions of the other planets, by house, are strong contributing factors. I do not mean to say that the whole Hitler phenomenon was caused only by Uranus. It is the whole gestalt of the chart, which is defined for each individual by house structure.

Other folks born on his birthday have the same Essential makeup, and have strong tendencies toward the psychopathic condition. But not all psychopaths come to public attention. Some quietly live out a whole lifetime without major problems in the world. It was Hitler's house structure that brought him forward in the world. If we accept the 5% rate of psychopaths in the general population, then probably someone who lives in your block, or apartment house, is a psychopath. And you probably would not recognize this person as being a psychopath even if you know him/her, because one of the principal traits of the condition is the ability to hide it from others. Because you do not think like they do (i.e., totally self-centered and isolated from the feelings or needs of others), it never occurs to you that someone does think this way.

A rather scary, but I am convinced wholly true fact.....all corporations display psychopathic behavior.....and our world is controlled and led into the future by corporations.

Last edited by greybeard; 05-03-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:30 PM
researcher researcher is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Thank you Sandstone,

Very interesting to know I kept talking to him as I was intrigue by him and still am, but not a good idea! He said to me he was a very cold person and only thing he loves is his cat, that was on the very last occasion I see him. He came across as a very warm person, I never understood him at all, he once said how everyone should experience being stabbed and what a good feeling this is and otherthings that I should not repeat, but shocking. It never fitted with his overall charator.....oops got to quickly go , i'll come back later!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
hi researcher,

i just looked at this chart in a superficial manner, but it reminded me of something i was just reading the other day in one of morins books, a well known astrologer from france from the 1600's.. he discusses the idea of mutual reception between planets in signs each other rule and discounts some of the popular theories around mutual reception.. in this chart example you offered we see saturn in leo - same position as hitler, a generational position in itself, in opposition to sun in aquarius.. both positions are in their fall and they are in an opposition aspect.. according to morin neither placement is helped by this mutual reception, but instead are only hindered further.. another example of this in your friends chart and which morin also discusses is moon in aries with mars in cancer.. according to morin there is no benefit from either position in its fall.. your friends chart has an unduly number of planets in very weak cellestial - sign) state..

we also note the mercury square uranus - hitler had the opposition, and we note how this square in your friends chart is on the angles, as the opposition was in hitlers chart.. both charts have a greater emphasis on the fixed mode, but whereas hitler had some mutability to his chart - very little to none if you exclude the outer planets, your friend also has none even when we include the outer planets.. interesting chart and thanks for sharing.. perhaps greybeard would like to comment on your friends chart..
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:37 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Documentary Examines "The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcuhh...eature=related

"Defining psychopathy, the disorder of the psychopath" - Taken from the book "The Shrink from Planet Zob: Psychiatry for a Mad World" by psychologist and philosopher Jake Lyron. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpjUVkx5EMA

Allan Gregg in conversation with Paula Caplan, psychologist and author of "They Say You're Crazy - How The World's Most Powerful Psychiatrists Decide Who's Normal." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKbyb...eature=related
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