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  #26  
Unread 05-03-2012, 08:08 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.

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Unread 05-03-2012, 10:25 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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Originally Posted by scorpittarian View Post
I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.
I absolutely agree. On top of that, I strongly believe that controlled and/or hidden psychopathy bestows upon an individual great benefits that allow him/herself to better deal with society and human nature in general. I'm pretty certain that's an absolute truth.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 10:35 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Other folks born on his birthday have the same Essential makeup, and have strong tendencies toward the psychopathic condition. But not all psychopaths come to public attention. Some quietly live out a whole lifetime without major problems in the world. It was Hitler's house structure that brought him forward in the world. If we accept the 5% rate of psychopaths in the general population, then probably someone who lives in your block, or apartment house, is a psychopath. And you probably would not recognize this person as being a psychopath even if you know him/her, because one of the principal traits of the condition is the ability to hide it from others. Because you do not think like they do (i.e., totally self-centered and isolated from the feelings or needs of others), it never occurs to you that someone does think this way.
Thanks for responding. Maybe because I really CAN'T think the way he did, it's that much harder for me to read his chart properly, to wrap my head around it, differentiate between what I see in the chart and what he did. It's truly a blessing that most of the 5% don't have the opportunity to wield such power.
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A rather scary, but I am convinced wholly true fact.....all corporations display psychopathic behavior.....and our world is controlled and led into the future by corporations.
I agree, by your definition of "psychopathic". Maybe the people who work at such corporations forget that they are people... they are simply greedy components of an inhuman force.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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Originally Posted by scorpittarian View Post
I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.
I don't see what you have described as psychopathy. The impression I get is that reigning in your empathy is something you have learned to do, or developed under a certain sequence of circumstances. Unless you feel no empathy for anyone ever, then you're nowhere near being a psychopath.

I believe that most people have a selective empathic function, that favours blood relatives and close friends first; less connected people don't trigger it so hard, if at all. Situational effects may also trigger feelings of empathy, or even antipathy.

Being able to walk past a beggar without breaking down in tears does not qualify a person as a psychopath.

I think that many/most people do need to reign in empathy, to an extent, in order to protect themselves from constantly being overwhelmed from painful feelings.

Hyper empathic people seem very fragile, and have a hard time functioning in the 'real' world.

Most people seem to have an empathic capacity that is somewhere between the extreme of no empathy for anything ever, and empathy for all things all at once all the time.
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  #30  
Unread 05-03-2012, 10:48 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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Originally Posted by scorpittarian View Post
I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.
I see your point, but...
1) your point in part depends on one's definition of psychotic behavior, which passing a beggar on the street or staying out of a street fight are not, IMO... more like benign neglect or just keeping yourself safe, which you probably ought to forgive yourself for. And,
2) there's a world of difference between the action you describe and ordering the death of millions as part of a "final solution".
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  #31  
Unread 05-03-2012, 10:51 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Thanks for responding. Maybe because I really CAN'T think the way he did, it's that much harder for me to read his chart properly, to wrap my head around it, differentiate between what I see in the chart and what he did. It's truly a blessing that most of the 5% don't have the opportunity to wield such power.

I agree, by your definition of "psychopathic". Maybe the people who work at such corporations forget that they are people... they are simply greedy components of an inhuman force.
I must say, I totally agree with you on this. I have encountered what may be termed one step back from psychopath, narcissist, it only takes one bit of evolution to become psychopathic. Nothing to be proud of whatsoever. This one I know, cannot hold down a job, has meglomaniac ambitions, very cold and totally detached from their emotions. They leave behind a string of angry, frustrated people who have dealt with them. Luckily they have money, or they probably be out of accomodation, due to lack of money/stability. Mars in Leo for this one amongst other aspects, first house Pluto conjunct north node. I won't list it all or post the chart. Ambitions of power to overcome a severe lack of true and genuine self love and self worth.
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  #32  
Unread 05-03-2012, 11:07 PM
Judy_AzVirgo Judy_AzVirgo is offline
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Right, Neptune... certainly nothing to be proud of. Sounds like your guy is quite a loser -- probably fortunate for all that he can't hold down a job. Has he had any counseling... probably not, if megalomania is a factor.

I think you bring up an excellent point about lack of self worth. Most bios of Hitler mention this trait in his early life; he was quite embarrassed about his family, their poverty, and so on. Maybe if you feel you have nothing else, then the Self is all there is. Not excusing anyone... just saying.
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  #33  
Unread 05-03-2012, 11:26 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

*I'm not at all trying to prove that I'm a psychopath. *

I'm a non-religious person & was previously an atheist. When I moved abroad, I got to know of this riot in which 2,000 people of the minority religion were massacred & guess what I said "they deserved it!" I was truly content with no personal gain! How can someone who was brought up in a multi-religious family with no strong religious background have such strong feelings against a particular group? I step aside if I see an ant & here I was happy that 2,000 died. Such animosity against any religion wasn't natural to me. It's something that I picked up from those around me in a year's time.

Brutal slaughter's what happens in communal & regional violence all the time. I see degrees of psychopathy often. Over here, they are ever ready to pick up their mighty swords to slaughter the other person. I hear small children say such things. They believe that the bullet is the solution. It's a world where only the fittest survive.

And how would you classify soldiers, butchers, etc?
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  #34  
Unread 05-04-2012, 05:36 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Firstly I would like to diffientiate between Sociopaths and Psychopaths. Psychopaths are born not created whereas Sociopaths usually have traumatic childhoods. Psychopaths are smart and charming whereas Sociopaths are like the guy that gives you the creeps even if sometimes your not sure why. Psychopaths are smart enough to develop covers i.e can have job and/or wife and kids (not that they really love their families) whereas Sociopaths can't. Ironically Sociopaths do not prey on those close like family and friends whereas Psychopaths think everyone is fair game. Both have antisocial personality disorder and like all personality disorders it is resistant to treatment.

I agree that you need to look at the whole chart for ANY reading but don't really think that an Astrologer can pick up on someone being a psychopath unless they had previous knowledge because every part of a chart can be expressed positively or negatively.

I am not going to discuss Hitlers chart because t was already done well here I am briefly going to look at three other charts and make some random comments.

Osama Bin Laden has an Aries Rising-warrior with Sun Moon and Mercury in Pisces in the 12th House Karmic Sacrifice (unfortunately he choose to sacrifice other people's life the worst aspect of Pisces possible) squaring Sagittarius Saturn which could show closed minded towards other cultures lack of ability to empathise or understand foriegners he also had a stern education (brain washing). Taurus Mars in Second House is able to create War to earn money and build a following. Neptune in eight in Scorpio he really was deluded in ideas of death, power, joint resources. Mars and Jupiter are both detriment giving them the worst expression possible. He wasn't lucky and Mars expressed the worst in Taurus (stubbon, unforgiving). Uranus and Pluto in Leo fame through creating death as an unusual joyful activity.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bin_Laden,_Osama

Ivan Milat "the backpacker murderer"
Pluto in 10th in Leo. He is famous for murdering people and he enjoyed it.
He had a weird relationship with his mother (maybe she died when he was young?), and he wasn't married (could have had a nasty divorce) Pluto opposes Venus in the 4th and Venus squaring moon in the 7th. Bad relationships with women. Mars and Mercury in Sag (killed people mainly from other countries) Squaring Jupiter and Neptune in the 11th (he was bad luck for tourists but he got caught because of a backpacker Paul Onion that acted humanitarianly by testifying and donating the reward money to charity. He also has the Sun in the 2nd House in Capricorn had those three planets (mars, mercury and sun) could have made him wealthy had not the oppositions with Jupiter and Neptune. Saturn in the 8th House opposing Sun in second he had an unhealthy relationship with his father.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Milat,_Ivan

Jeffrey Dahmer
Libra Rising learns to be charming
Pluto squares Sun, Mercury and Venus maybe explains why he was able to talk guys into coming up to his room where he murdered them.
Neptune in 1st in Scorpio deluded around death.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dahmer,_Jeffrey

One thing I thought was how different all these charts were so different. That one thing can't demonstrate a bad person I especially found it hard to interpret Jeffery Dahmer's chart .
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  #35  
Unread 05-04-2012, 07:04 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Here's a chart of a known sociopath. He is suspected of being a serial killer of ex-girlfriends.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...8n-u1336100444
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  #36  
Unread 05-04-2012, 04:41 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

scorpittarian

you have me curious..

where is "over here"?

kittybaby

i know there are 3 or 4 charts for osama bin laden.. didn't look at which one you isolated..
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  #37  
Unread 05-06-2012, 06:10 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

kittybaby - "psychopath" and "sociopath" are synonyms. There is no differentiation between them in terms of clinical diagnosis which, these days, would tend to be antisocial personality disorder. There is a suggestion with ADP that there is some difference in brain structure wherein the normal pathways that regulate such things as fear, risk-taking and stimulation are impaired so that the person a) does not feel fear like other people b) is more prone to take risks than other people and c) needs more stimulation than other people. There is a further suggestion that such people are "emotionally colour-blind" in that they cannot feel, nor understand, the range of emotions people without ADP can experience and therefore that they lack empathy with their fellow man. Some people are able to channel this into - for instance - success in business where a certain ruthlessness is an advantage. However, upbringing and environment seem to be important in shaping the individual's response to their neurobiological deficits.

Whether any of this can be discerned in the chart is the subject of Liz Greene's excellent book "The Dark Of The Soul", wherein she suggests it may be hinted at by (among other things) lunar impairments. If we look at Dahmer's chart, for instance, we see a Moon in Aries, squared by Saturn which could hint at the rather egotistical, emotionally buttoned-up person he so clearly was. In others, this may not have been so toxic, but given his parenting, the emotional climate in which he grew, and his subsequent experiences in life, it went to the bad.

It's very interesting that Neptune is so prominent in his chart, given the role that his personal drug use, alcohol and drugging men into unconsciousness played in his crimes.

Another fascinating book about the astrology of serial murderers is "Destined for Murder" by Sandra Harrison Young and Edna Rowland.

I find this all utterly fascinating - what a great thread!
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  #38  
Unread 05-06-2012, 06:22 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part II

Thank you greybeard for an absolutely fascinating pair of posts. Beautifully written as well. Are these going to be (or have they been) published anywhere?
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  #39  
Unread 05-06-2012, 09:25 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part II

Of course. They were published on http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/.

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed them, and hope they stimulate folks to better and better things in astrology.

I haven't read Liz Greene's book and didn't know anyone was writing about the psychopathic personality in the horoscope. Good for her. I haven't studied the subject in horoscopes either; the thread was spontaneously inspired by what I saw on some other thread. I think we could do well by putting a little elbow grease into 5% of the population. In other words we should learn to recognize the potential in a chart.

One of the problems here is that the psychiatric profession itself is vague on symptoms and causes. It is known these folks -- the psychopaths -- are virtually immune to "treatment;" they don't respond, they manipulate, they are superior to others, etc. Another problem is that most of them are never publicly recognized. It is a very small percentage that commit heinous crimes. Nevertheless, we astrologers -- especially if we are consulting astrologers -- can and should learn to recognize the "tell-tale signs" of an inclination in this direction. Of course, what to do with the knowledge is also a challenge.

Anyway, I thought it worth discussing. If nothing else the study of this and other "personality types" will make better astrologers of us.
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  #40  
Unread 05-07-2012, 03:03 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I like this thread so far but I wanted to contribute a small reminder on this lazy sunday.

Re: the argument that many people born on the same day (at the same time) with virtually identical charts...

I have to remind people that no matter how much we can use astrology to retcon people's lives and describe them and their historical motivations based on their transits, natal etc, one's chart is like genetic code. No matter how much we can say "this percentage of people tend to this"...which is true to some degree, personally I am disturbed by people using a chart to define a person as "tending towards" some psychological state which I am fairly certain no one here on this thread has the necessary education, experience and training to diagnose ANYONE with.

And truly, if there is someone here with a psychology degree, then I would be happy to admit their superior views on the subject of what a psychopath is or what they tend towards. . .

But to use charts to determine someone's inherent "evilness" and then use a often mis-portrayed term "psychopath" as the tag, its just irresponsible. Especially to a portion of the population (albeit a small) but real portion that has been diagnosed as such, and are (yes are) trying to get treatment for it.

I think the ideas presented in here are mostly a bit like a insensitive circle-jerk
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  #41  
Unread 05-07-2012, 04:00 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

A degree in psychology, while attesting to study of the human mind, is simply a diploma stating that the holder subscribes to a certain viewpoint.

Here is what Carl Jung says about "degrees in psychology": "Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul." -- Carl Jung

Psychiatrists have yet to agree on the symptoms and causes of psychopathy, and even the name of the disorder has undergone several changes. The condition is highly resistant to treatment, and in fact the psychopath is essentially unreachable by any of the therapeutic methods commonly used in psychiatry.

The statement has been made in this thread that only a small percentage of psychopaths commint heinous crimes. Where do you find the term, or idea, of evil used as identical with psychopath? No one is picking on anyone, or any group. We are discussing how to see certain tendencies in any given chart. And individuals do tend to be inclined toward this or that sort of behavior, as I'm sure you are inclined to be critical of "attacks on the underdog." Or is it that you yourself have psychopathic tendencies?

Goodness...It is insensitive to discuss ideas?

Blind reliance on "experts" can lead one far from the truths of life. How many degreed psychologists sell their knowledge to the psychopathic corporations that run this world of ours so that the masses can be controlled? Rather than use their knowledge to heal, they sell their souls and manipulate people into thinking and doing what the rulers want thought and done. That seems a bit insensitive, don't you think?

I wonder if you are an experienced astrologer.

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  #42  
Unread 05-07-2012, 04:12 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

greybeard,

i agree with you a degree in psychology is not much of anything to be in some more qualified position to discuss certain topics.. i suppose i am being unkind to those who have this.. most of the people i know who went to get a degree in psychology didn't know very much about themselves and were trying to figure it out thru taking courses in psychology..

the part that i liked from rushwing and to which i agree in principle with is this "Re: the argument that many people born on the same day (at the same time) with virtually identical charts...

I have to remind people that no matter how much we can use astrology to retcon people's lives and describe them and their historical motivations based on their transits, natal etc, one's chart is like genetic code. No matter how much we can say "this percentage of people tend to this"...which is true to some degree, personally I am disturbed by people using a chart to define a person as "tending towards" some psychological state.."

well, i don't know if i am disturbed, but seeing it as limiting defining people as 'tending towards some psychological state' might be a better way to describe it..

how does one describe saturn squares for example? sometimes they are an obvious handicap and sometimes a person is able to overcome the restrictions or limitations suggested by them.. either way in themselves they might tend towards a particular state and we will not know just where the person is at in relation to it and whether they have learned how to process the dynamic in a positive manner or be held back and express more aberrant behaviour out of the dynamic.. this is where i think astrology is on shaky ground.. my 2c's..

it is difficult to define people or
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Unread 05-07-2012, 04:59 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Quote:
Or is it that you yourself have psychopathic tendencies?

Goodness...It becomes evil to discuss ideas??
Doesn't that show more that you have a problem with what I said?

ONE HUNDRED TIMES YES, I think it is fair to expect a certain amount of medical experience and training to use A MEDICAL LABEL in ANY CASE to DESCRIBE PEOPLE whether in astrology or no. I wouldn't expect a non-doctor to call me diabetic and believe him or her, yet astrologers are often given by their clients, a tremendous amount of leeway and power...which is exactly my point.

I don't post much on this forum because, I find two key aspects of being a real astrologer so often lacking in these discussions. 1) is prudence and the other 2) is humility.

You are free to assume that I am a psychopath, but I doubt it will make your own arguments about disregarding the basic foundations of academia and science. And I really doubt you have the the ability to identify me as a psychopath much as I doubt a non-biologist could tell me the difference between types of slime-mold.

Simply by quoting Carl Jung (who was himself an academic with years of training, published research and hard-earned prestige) does not take away the vast difference between actual research and harmful speculation.

Astrologers ARE practitioners, and if they are going to make any new connections from one field to another, they should be willing to research that other field (and be expected to perform well in that field)

What if you had an astrologer making claims that certain homeopathic remedies can be linked to a chart. I WOULD PERSONALLY be very upset, where I a client being told "take this remedy for x condition" by an astrologer who later I find HAD NO TRAINING IN HOMEOPATHY. (Oh of course, it would be my fault for not checking their credentials)

I think it is really wrong for astrologers to retcon the lives and charts of past megalomaniacs/tyrants/generally evil types and assume they were all INSERT CATCHY MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE HERE (I have witnessed this kind of discussion for many mental health issues by astrologers, whichever scapegoat looks the most scary at the time, such as BPD, or schizophrenia, or bi-polar) and then to go further and try to take these extreme examples, and apply the label to other peoples charts.

That is called an ecological fallacy.

YES IT IS HURTFUL AND WRONG...

From what I read, it seems you think it is alright for someone who lets say, worked as a bartender (thus UNDERSTANDS the human condition), to be a part-time astrologer who can label a person a psychopath merely from looking at chart and because they know Hitler had such and such in common with this person, then this person is a psycho?

I would not like to believe that anyone here could fall for that kind of quakkery, but I am not surprised that in order for someone like you to defend your own lack of knowledge and credentials to spin around and say that I have a problem with it because "I must have psychopathic tendencies"

That reveals your own lack of knowledge right there. I would highly doubt any of your own critical thinking skills from here on out.

It is quakkery, plain and simple, and anyone who thinks it is ok for non-medical practitioners to use medical terms in astrological "research" when they themselves are not certified to identify these things, to me it is the opposite of the scientific method, which strangely enough is the foundation of the very astrology that you would like to wag your wrist at currently.

This is harmful to astrology as a field of science.

I hope anyone who is reading this, is not taking these poorly made conclusions seriously. Or if they are using this discussion to inspire their own research I am highly supportive but I MUST for my own personal reasons, say that ANY SUCH CONCLUSIONS PRESENTED HERE, be taken with A LARGE AMOUNT OF SALT.

And that people here who are bandying about terms like psychopath or sociopath as if they have the authority to draw conclusions about whole groups of people based of a few examples... is just really off-base, and they should be ashamed of the way they are representing astrology.
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Unread 05-07-2012, 08:58 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

To say...."John has Tuberculosis", or "Mary suffers from Downes Syndrome" I must first have an MD certify my diagnosis? I suppose I could be sued for malpractice for saying Albert has flat feet. Normal observation reveals certain "abnormalities" to the common man on the street, whether physical or mental/psychological.

The fact that I quoted Jung, properly or improperly, might suggest to you that I have studied and continue to study psychology. It should also stimulate our thinking to see that such a highly trained and honored man as Jung would say what he said in the quotation I offered. It is Jung, not me, who seems to think a bartender might make a good healer of wounded souls. I have also noticed at least two other contributors to this thread who have given responsible and knowledgeable clinical information regarding the psychopath; they too have done some homework. I am well aware that the horoscope yields essentially the same personality typing as the much-used Briggs-Myers system, and there is another astrologer in this forum who, I believe, is doing a study of this. I really think your allegations that astrologers are poorly trained, incompetent to render judgment, is a bit wild, or ill-founded.

Personally, I never found Cassius Clay/Muhamed Ali's claim that "I am the Greatest" offensive in the least. He may have been imprudent in saying so, and lacking in humility. But he was the Greatest and had the belt to prove it. That Tiger Woods had to be rescued from his car through a smashed rear window does not affect his status as a great golfer in the least. William Lilly, in his autobiography, noted that "the best artists [astrologers] are often the worst people." While prudence and humility are highly esteemed virtues, they are not prerequisite to becoming a highly skilled astrologer. It is good not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

All human experience takes place wholly within the human mind, and no place else. Although astrological charts can be and often are interpreted from perspectives other than the psychological, natal astrology in particular is the study of the human psyche. It attempts to correlate inherent psychological traits and potentials with behaviors and their outcomes. This means that natal astrology is, at root, a system of psychology. Which is why we have been discussing psychopaths.
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Unread 05-07-2012, 09:01 AM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

Rushwing - I am an ex=psychiatric nurse with a degree in psychiatric nursing and many years experience of looking after people with a range of mental health problems, including personality disorders. I've read quite extensively about psychopathy (am reading another book about it right now). Do I count?

I understand your wish to avoid stigmatising people, that's admirable. But psychopaths (or people with APD or whatever you want to call them) exist, they do enormous harm on the whole (I would suggest they aren't entirely in control of this, due to their brain structure) and I think discussing these issues and whether they can be discerned astrologically is entirely within the gift of this board.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 04:32 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

"Psychopaths are born to be bad,according to tests on some of the most violent criminals....All have the same brain abnormalities,according to MRI scans....The research is the clearest evidence to date that psychopathy is a distinct sub-group of anti-social personality disorder...The study,published in Archives of General Psychiatry,found psychopaths had less grey matter in the anterior rostal prefrontal cortex."

London Metro newspaper,May 8,2012.

J.R.
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Unread 05-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

i am in full agreement with inconjunct post 45 and don't know what happened to the thanks button.

i don't know enough about psycho, or socio- pathology to comment definitively, but it would seem to me that there has to be some pronounced imbalance that could be seen in the chart, probably always after the fact.. this is a discouraging part to astrology in it's present state.. we take chart data of people after the fact to do a study on it and make conclusions on the astrology of it. doing this same exercise beforehand is a much more potentially dangerous exercise as the conclusions one comes to beforehand will have bearing on your actions in the present and future sense. i think each chart has to be treated uniquely.. looking for signatures is fine.. more then a few have to be present in a chart as opposed to any one signature..

what do you do once you think you find enough astro signatures? really as i see it, all we are doing is trying to find patterns usually after the fact, as this thread will attest to.. even the example earlier in the thread that someone posted on and that i commented on are not enough to base a definitive conclusion on.. for that i suppose one needs to be a doctor as rushwing appears to be suggesting and to which i agree.. talking about the astrology of it on the other hand is fine as i see it..i didn't realize i had so much to say, dang..
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Unread 05-09-2012, 07:29 PM
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Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

If I may make a non-astrological observation...

In her book, "Coversions with spirits" Dolores Cannon, a past life regression hypnotist conveys information that has come through (from the spirit world) while her clients are under hypnosis for past life regression. With one client she was talking about what happens to murderers and psychopaths in the after death state or the spirit world. There is no hell for them. Souls who have done much hurt and harm to others are sent to a “hospital” like place in the spirit world where advanced masters work with them in a kind of psychotherapy. But it seems that Adolf Hitler was not sent there!

“Client (under hypnosis): Adolph Hitler was not sent to the hospital because his soul was not that damaged. He was sent to the learning portion of the plane, the retreat. He needed a time of quiet reflection because he had become – well, another metaphor – his nerves had become jangled. The problem in that lifetime was that he was an extremely creative person. He would have been a creative genius but he had no outlets for it because the Depression culture he was raised in did not allow for creative outlets. There was an inordinate amount of energy behind this creativeness, as there always is in these geniuses. It had to have another outlet somewhere and it warped his outlook on life and hence his thoughts, and it developed into the final outcome. That which happened reflected mainly on his father’s karma rather than his.”

Dolores: (This was a surprise) I wouldn’t think of it that way.

Client: It’s hard to explain. He started out with good intentions, wanting to be an artist or architect. But he was not allowed to develop in that direction, and the energy was warped. His main mistake was not being able to handle that energy in a constructive form. So he turned it into destructiveness.

Dolores: He could have found an outlet for it in a more creative form

Client: Yes he could have been an engineer, for example.

Dolores: Isn’t that passing the buck blaming the father?

Client: No. Hitler has to share part of the blame too. But it cannot be set solely upon him because the problem started with the narrow attitudes his father developed.

Dolores: He had millions killed. It seems he should have ended up in the hospital.

Client: This was the first lifetime this happened to him. He had strong creative impulses in former lifetimes also but in this one it was blocked. He didn’t handle that well – that will be his main karma – learning to handle undesirable situations. He sent orders to kill but was influenced by the people around him. He did not derive direct pleasure from killing them. He merely made it possible for people to be killed. Many of the men in the system were doing it because they wanted to."
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=q...page&q&f=false
(See page 123)


So it seems that what happened was due to Hitler's father's free will and Hitler's own free will. His horoscope just showed a creative genius - how he handled that energy was up to him. He chose to handle it in a negative way. You can't blame his horoscope. The stars impel they do not compel. We all have free will - otherwise how can we have karma/payback if we are not responsible for our decisions and actions?
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"The aim of everyone who incarnates on Earth is ascension or enlightenment, which is the total mastery of all the lessons offered here. When we respond to all our tests with compassion, strength and understanding, we become masters. This may take many lifetimes for if we hurt or harm another we earn karma, which is a debt and must be repaid." Diana Cooper

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Unread 06-21-2012, 05:54 AM
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To Greybeard's reply to Jesusistheway I say AMEN!
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  #50  
Unread 06-21-2012, 06:06 AM
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I just wanted to add one more thing and Ill shut up but this is one of the most interesting threads Ive ever seen here at AW. I thought Greybeards analysis of Hitlers chart was fascinating! And I got it too I could really see it especially the 'Uranus' explanation; brilliant! I think that you are a fine communicator, Greybeard.

Thanks for the thread!
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