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  #126  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:33 PM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Jesus, we had a serious discussion so far before it degenerated.
The MFR is operative from conception to birth, and throughout one's life. Not surprising that there would be a correlation between time and place of conception and time and place of birth.


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  #127  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:47 PM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

An astrological chart is literally a "field guide" to past, present, and future effects of magnetic resonance on our own, biologically generated magnetic fields.
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  #128  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:50 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Interesting. Has this theory helped you come up with astrological results? Because Aristotelian universals (the qualities you called a washer/dryer) have helped me better understand the planets and the zodiac more than any astrology book.

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  #129  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:51 PM
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Someday, theoretical physics will catch up to astrology, and be able to explain it according to the precepts of modern science.
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  #130  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:53 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Someday, theoretical physics will catch up to astrology, and
be able to explain it according to the precepts of modern science.
Theoretically
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  #131  
Unread 05-17-2019, 10:53 PM
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Interesting. Has this theory helped you come up with astrological results? Because Aristotelian universals have helped me better understand the planets and the zodiac more than any astrology book.
Like Newton said, "standing on the shoulders of giants" enables us to see further.
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  #132  
Unread 05-17-2019, 11:07 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Like Newton said, "standing on the shoulders of giants" enables us to see further.
Did you try to dodge my question?
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  #133  
Unread 05-17-2019, 11:41 PM
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Did you try to dodge my question?
Astrology could never have been conceived of in our own Age. We have to rely on the intuition, visionary abilities, and reasoning of past Ages to form the foundation of we're able to see now, using what's been given. Even something as simple as the division of the zodiac into 12 equal parts is part of our astrological inheritance. But when it was being developed, there wasn't unanimous agreement on "what it all meant".
I'm focused primarily on the patterns formed by the sequence of Modalities and Elements. Is Aristotle the originator of those? Ptolemy is said to have interpreted them, but that their origin predates him.
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  #134  
Unread 05-17-2019, 11:51 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Astrology could never have been conceived of in our own Age. We have to rely on the intuition, visionary abilities, and reasoning of past Ages to form the foundation of we're able to see now, using what's been given. Even something as simple as the division of the zodiac into 12 equal parts is part of our astrological inheritance. But when it was being developed, there wasn't unanimous agreement on "what it all meant".
I'm focused primarily on the patterns formed by the sequence of Modalities and Elements. Is Aristotle the originator of those? Ptolemy is said to have interpreted them, but that their origin predates him.
Humorism and atomism predates Aristotle and it might predate Greek philosophy too. Most ancient physicians and some astrologers (like Ptolemy and Antiochus) would assign the elements to the four seasons (each encompassing three signs) successively in the way I describe in this thread - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125505

Ultimately, the seasons do approximate these qualities (by which I personally mean atmospheric conditions, and not the ancient belief that these qualities make up matter) in some way or another for places other than inbetween the tropics, barring sublunar particulars like the particular climate, elevation, location etc. I recommend checking my new thread on the traditional board - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=126640

What you call modalities is actually ''qualities'' in Ptolemy, by which he refers to how the element of the season (air, fire, earth or water) manifests in quantity. The quantity of the two qualities that make up the elements change every month, for example, Aries brings spring by equalizing the day and the night, Taurus makes it solid by making the moistening and moderately heating most firm, and Gemini is dual since although the moistening element is still predominant, it is lesser in quantity and moving towards dryness (while heat also increasing towards fire).

The ecliptic is divided into twelve equal parts because the astronomical seasons are exactly four, and they are best divided by three in the aforesaid manner. The only further subdivision that can be naturally defended is the system of terms in my opinion.

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  #135  
Unread 05-18-2019, 01:53 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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This Moment is defined and described by the cosmic elements we have chosen to use as our astrological tools -- planets, signs, aspects and such.

Just what is it that is described by this horoscope? It is not a person, or a question about a missing cat. Our only input was Time and Place (Spacetime), so that the only thing the arrangement of the heavens can directly describe is the Moment itself and nothing more.
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clearly a misunderstanding of my comment


i.e.
without visible celestial bodies
nothing to see
There is nothing contrary between greybeard's statements and your comment, then. I don't believe he was arguing that a horoscope can be cast without celestial bodies... unless I misunderstood him, too.
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  #136  
Unread 05-18-2019, 04:00 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Time is one of the more unreliable ways to set up the Ascendant. Ptolemy noted the inaccuracy of solar gnomons and water clocks of the more careful practitioners of his time, think about how clocks in hospitals can also just be off by a few minutes even with near immediate record (I am not saying they are as unreliable, though they can have the same flaws to some degree). Ptolemy recommended an astrolabe which can be set up to show Ascendant degree (emphasizing direct observation by astronomy than chronometry) and also a rectification method (emphasizing astrology rather than relying solely on the "4th hour of the day on the second day of Thoth" which many surviving horoscopes have).

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  #137  
Unread 05-18-2019, 08:15 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Waybread, I get the feeling you are trying to play some double game here, because I believe most people here would think of synchronicity as an objective type, rather than cold reading (which ''often'' is synchronous).
Not at all.

I'm merely saying that simply because A and B occur at the same time, you cannot say that A causes B (or B causes A) without supplementary evidence. Which you don't have. Currently there are no robust theories as to why astrology should work-- assuming that it does.

Citing hot, cold, moist, and dry qualities does not explain how the planets should manage to produce these qualities--on earth, millions of miles away.

Gravity and electromagnetism are invalid explanations. Even if gravity actually had meaning (which it doesn't) there is nothing in a gravitational pull capable of producing the 4 humors.

The idea of a planet exerting some influence on human behavior breaks down when you consider horary, which goes by the moment of the question.
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  #138  
Unread 05-18-2019, 08:43 AM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

"Resonance" is the wrong word for the all-surrounding medium we live in. The correct word is "Matrix". So, restating: It's the MFM, Magnetic Field Matrix of the Solar-system, interacting with our own, personal biomagnetic fields, that astrology is all about.
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  #139  
Unread 05-18-2019, 12:28 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Not at all.
The idea of a planet exerting some influence on human behavior
breaks down
when you consider horary, which goes by the moment of the question.

Not at all.
when you consider that horary is based on planetary location
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  #140  
Unread 05-18-2019, 02:28 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Currently there are no robust theories as to why astrology should work-- assuming that it does.
Do you ever assume that it does? How do you think it works?
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  #141  
Unread 05-18-2019, 10:55 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Are you cold reading people? Do you tell them that you do?

greybeard hasn't tried to answer my three questions on the same topic...
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  #142  
Unread 05-19-2019, 06:04 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

This is from my post #4. I can elaborate at greater length, if you're actually interested.

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As a stylized representation of the cosmos, the horoscope is a type of map. As a map, it is a form of graphic communication. The act of astrology takes place in the mind of the astrologer reading a form of graphic communication that has no necessary obligation to follow a linear model of time.

This is unlike my post, which you would read from left to right, and then top line to bottom line.

Did you see the movie Arrival? Highly recommended.
My explanation is built on a theory, debated by linguists, that learning a new language gives you a window into a new understanding of space and time. Notably but not exclusively through verb tenses, languages express their own understandings of time. English, for example, has all kinds of nuances about past and future times that many other languages lack. In German, future verb tenses are constructed out of past verb tenses, showing the future as unfolding out of the past.

Most languages are linear, following a "time's arrow" sequence of past, present, and future.

In a map, horoscope, or another form of graphic communication like a photograph, however, we can grasp the whole simultaneously. Or we can focus on different parts of a complex picture, without necessarily following a linear progression. Our eyes can move up, down, left, right, or in some other sequence.

By analogy, we have trouble reading or listening to a phrase structured like: " trouble like analogy phrase by structured a have like reading like listening or analogy," because our written and spoken language is linear and one-directional. We can't comprehend so well simultaneously of by randomizing the order of the text.

We don't have this linear straight-jacket with most forms of graphic communication. (For using the night sky in this fashion see Bernadette Brady's YouTube lectures on Visual Astrology.)

So studying horoscopes opens up the astrologer's mind to new ways of understanding time simultaneously or in a non-linear order, and new ways of communicating space.

For example, if I post my horoscope, even though we've never met and I live so far away that we probably never will meet, you can say something about me based upon glyphs and lines on a page. You can consider what happened to me 20 years ago or what will happen next week. You can look at my "money house" (#2) out of sequence after my 9th house. Or before my 1st house. There's no set linear order.

One trouble with causal models of astrology is that traditional western, modern, and Vedic astrology work very differently. Sidereal and tropical astrology don't put the planets in the same places: today we're about 24 or 27 degrees apart, depending upon the sidereal system used. House cusps can vary widely for one person depending upon the house system used. Yet skilled astrologers from vastly different schools of thought can nevertheless come up with valid readings.

This shouldn't be possible if astrology were causal to the point of being deterministic or fatalistic.

Much of what we interpret isn't even up in the sky: it's calculated data points.

Geoffrey Cornelius, in The Moment of Astrology, talked about the "wrong" chart nonetheless being radical.

Gravity, electromagnetism or what-have-you emanating from planets makes no sense in terms of explaining why a woman with an afflicted Venus in Scorpio is often jealous. It makes even less sense in terms of explaining how such forces could affect a moment in time like a horary question, because there's nothing tangible there to be acted upon.

In a horoscope reading, I synthesize symbols on a computer screen (formerly on a page.) Isn't this what you do?
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  #143  
Unread 05-19-2019, 02:33 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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In a horoscope reading, I synthesize symbols on a computer screen (formerly on a page.) Isn't this what you do?
Do you synthesize symbols with causal influence (or say correlation due to a third variable) or are you synthesizing cold reading tricks?

Quote:
For example, if I post my horoscope, even though we've never met and I live so far away that we probably never will meet, you can say something about me based upon glyphs and lines on a page. You can consider what happened to me 20 years ago or what will happen next week. You can look at my "money house" (#2) out of sequence after my 9th house. Or before my 1st house. There's no set linear order.
It is best to have a set linear order as the philosopher does - parents, siblings, multiple births, teratology, length of life, bodily form and temperament, bodily injuries and diseases, quality of mind, diseases of mind, material fortune, fortune of dignity, occupation, marriage, children, friends and enemies, foreign travel, and quality of death, which is placed at the end of all these subjects. This is so that each preceding section may guide the particulars of the later inquiry. For example, it is not needful for one to investigate the topic of children through the Midheaven for someone who does not have the necessary length of life, or has some impotence or infertility of some kind.

Quote:
One trouble with causal models of astrology is that traditional western, modern, and Vedic astrology work very differently. Sidereal and tropical astrology don't put the planets in the same places: today we're about 24 or 27 degrees apart, depending upon the sidereal system used. House cusps can vary widely for one person depending upon the house system used. Yet skilled astrologers from vastly different schools of thought can nevertheless come up with valid readings.

This shouldn't be possible if astrology were causal to the point of being deterministic or fatalistic.
I doubt that all these systems of prediction pursue the natural way of inquiry, rather than, say, deriving authority from religion and tradition. There is no question that all these systems can't be valid at the same time, since despite their generalizations, they have some differences in the consideration of data.

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  #144  
Unread 05-19-2019, 06:17 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Time is one of the more unreliable ways to set up the Ascendant. Ptolemy noted the inaccuracy of solar gnomons and water clocks of the more careful practitioners of his time, think about how clocks in hospitals can also just be off by a few minutes even with near immediate record (I am not saying they are as unreliable, though they can have the same flaws to some degree). Ptolemy recommended an astrolabe which can be set up to show Ascendant degree (emphasizing direct observation by astronomy than chronometry) and also a rectification method (emphasizing astrology rather than relying solely on the "4th hour of the day on the second day of Thoth" which many surviving horoscopes have).
Thank you, that clarifies the reason for JupiterASC comments quite a bit! The location of planets is not independent from time, but time isn't required to cast the horoscope when it comes to rectifications.

That sort of side-steps greybeard's meaning, though...
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  #145  
Unread 05-19-2019, 06:27 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Thank you, that clarifies the reason for JupiterASC comments quite a bit! The location of planets is not independent from time, but time isn't required to cast the horoscope when it comes to rectifications.

That sort of side-steps greybeard's meaning, though...
Yes, time in the everyday sense of the hour on the clock, not in the sense of the complex relationship between time and space in relativistic physics. Most people refer to the human conceptualization of time when it comes to it rather than physics.
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  #146  
Unread 05-19-2019, 06:51 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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In a horoscope reading, I synthesize symbols on a computer screen (formerly on a page.) Isn't this what you do?
No, because I am not swindling people. I bet 99% of people going to astrologers also believe in its efficacy, barring enlightened skeptics like you and Geoffrey Cornelius.
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Unread 05-19-2019, 09:37 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Waybread, maybe I am misinterpreting this, but aren't you just saying that you are cold reading people?
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  #148  
Unread 05-19-2019, 10:37 PM
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Waybread, maybe I am misinterpreting this, but aren't you just saying that you are cold reading people?
What's your definition of "cold reading"?
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Unread 05-19-2019, 10:52 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Define what you mean by "cold reading" and "cold reading tricks." "Cold reading" isn't a term I use myself. I'm smelling a loaded question here, but I want to understand you correctly.

Do you mean what I would call a "blind reading," meaning a chart where nothing is known about the life of the native?

If you have any questions about how I read charts, I've left many examples to peruse. I'll try to read some fresh ones later today so you can see some recent examples.

I normally follow a more conservative form of modern astrology. Sometimes it's more modern (asteroids, harmonics) sometimes it's more traditional (horary.)I like to qualify my statements. I'm not God and it would be presumptive of me to assume any infallibility.

Further, every planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations that are consistent with its core meanings. Is the moon one's experience of one's mother? One's home? Early childhood? Mature women? Liquids? A set of medicinal herbs? An indicator that a matter will not conclude successfully?

It depends upon the question you ask. For each of 7 questions, the moon might symbolize something entirely different. It just beggars the imagination that all of them (plus dozens of others) get tidily packed into one literal heavenly body explained by temperature and moisture.

Where all of this does get sorted out and synthesized is in the mind of the astrologer, interacting with a form of visual (graphic) communication that we call a horoscope.

During the course of its long history, astrology has not always been deterministic. The Stoics were, and prior to the Stoics the Greeks had a religious belief in the 3 Fates. But Christianity insisted upon free will.

Possibly you find it to be helpful, turning a two-dimension chart (actually, 3D if we include declination) into a linear uni-directional order. (You're paraphrasing Ptolemy, if not quoting him.) But many questions put to the astrology are mundane, horary, or electional: they do not involve a nativity. If someone is asking about a marriage, we don't go through your entire rubric, that's for sure.

Relatively few questions on this forum are requests for reading an infant's nativity. And then I think we have to be very, very careful about what we say. Most requests are by people who are minimally teenagers, and often decades older. With our life expectancies now so high (in the 70s in most developed countries) the old issues about high infant mortality are not so relevant, when a 40-year old asks why he's still single.

I don't know what you mean by a "natural way of inquiry." Oddly enough, Vedic, modern, and traditional western astrologers have demonstrated that they are capable of good results.

I'm not swindling people. Shame on you. I happen to disagree with you.

I don't know what you mean by an "enlightened skeptic." Geoffrey Cornelius thinks astrology is a form of divination. Shouldn't all of us keep our critical faculties active? Otherwise one is too easily misled. Astrology doesn't demand an oath of allegiance-- and then which version would be the correct one?

And will the real physics please stand up? Quantum or Newtonian? In quantum physics, the observer changes the nature of what s/he observes. At least in the lab. For now.
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Unread 05-19-2019, 11:04 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Define what you mean by "cold reading" and "cold reading tricks." "Cold reading" isn't a term I use myself. I'm smelling a loaded question here, but I want to understand you correctly.
No matter how much you sugarcoat it, you are clever enough to know what I mean.
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