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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #151  
Unread 05-19-2019, 11:08 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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What's your definition of "cold reading"?
Everyone's.

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  #152  
Unread 05-19-2019, 11:13 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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We live in a very tolerant time, each astrologer doing dozen different of the points mentioned on the first page side by side with the other, and both frequently failing with their objective, which does not bode well for the god theory helping each one of us in the usage of contradictory systems. But we need not become pessimistic of our field, or become subjectivists.

Its main attraction is the promise that it contains entirely new and extremely important knowledge that might be gained by systematic study of the phenomena in question, and this would be worth pursuing even if the subject happened to be partly or complete waste of time.
Skeptics don't pursue astrology because they think its waste of time, waybread you pursue astrology despite agreeing that its waste of time (by which I mean that it is an objective phenomenon). I however pursue it (like most others, practitioners or not) because I do think it is an objective phenomenon, so there lie our differences (of ''allegiance'').

Last edited by petosiris; 05-19-2019 at 11:42 PM.
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  #153  
Unread 05-19-2019, 11:29 PM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Possibly you find it to be helpful, turning a two-dimension chart (actually, 3D if we include declination) into a linear uni-directional order. (You're paraphrasing Ptolemy, if not quoting him.) But many questions put to the astrology are mundane, horary, or electional: they do not involve a nativity. If someone is asking about a marriage, we don't go through your entire rubric, that's for sure.
I was paraphrasing him. Ptolemy mentions only the two great parts of astrology - universal and genethlialogical. He definitely recommends taking mundane astrology into account before nativities - ''So then, as, among all genethlialogical inquiries whatever, a more general destiny takes precedence of all particular considerations, namely, that of country of birth, to which the major details of a geniture are naturally subordinate, such as the topics of the form of the body, the character of the soul and the variations of manners and customs, it is also necessary that he who makes his inquiry naturally should always hold first to the primary and more authoritative cause, lest, misled by the similarity of the genitures... or, again, on the subject of marriage, lest he mistake the appropriate customs and manners by assigning, for example, marriage with a sister to one who is Italian by race, instead of to the Egyptian as he should, and a marriage with his mother to this latter, though it suits the Persian.'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/4C*.html#10

Nowadays, first-cousin marriages are generally frowned or illegal in some countries, but they constitute more than half of all marriages in some Middle-Eastern countries and their ethnic groups. Thankfully, I am not aware of the kind of detrimental incest for the offspring that was happening in Hellenistic Egypt. Some countries also have polygamy, others don't. Ptolemy would probably not claim that all those nativities have such indications in their nativities, but rather that particular temperaments react in different ways to the temperament of the ethnicity, culture and upbringing.

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Most requests are by people who are minimally teenagers, and often decades older. With our life expectancies now so high (in the 70s in most developed countries) the old issues about high infant mortality are not so relevant, when a 40-year old asks why he's still single.
Most people are also from western countries except on one particular board, so you might see my previous paragraph as 100%? irrelevant too.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-19-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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  #154  
Unread 05-20-2019, 12:22 AM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Skeptics don't pursue astrology because they think its waste of time, waybread you pursue astrology despite agreeing that its waste of time (by which I mean that it is an objective phenomenon). I however pursue it (like most others, practitioners or not) because I do think it is an objective phenomenon, so there lie our differences (of ''allegiance'').
Magnetism both attracts and repels.
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  #155  
Unread 05-20-2019, 01:27 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Magnetism both attracts and repels.
No comprendo.
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  #156  
Unread 05-20-2019, 01:29 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

No one says that one can't derive meaning or benefits from astrology with full subjectivity, though I question its utility for the inquirer, particularly if it so happened that the subject has some degree of objectivity. :thinking:
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  #157  
Unread 05-20-2019, 01:33 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Imagine trying to come up with fancy methods to get more queries correct with shotgunning. I don't see why astrology should not degenerate into that if there is no objectivity in it.
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  #158  
Unread 05-20-2019, 01:43 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

There is something sinister in the way Cornelius sells full subjectivity under the guise of something magical/literature/divination. This leads to so much confusion because most people think he simply means replacement by another mechanism of synchronicity (see his podcast with Chris Brennan).

I will have it in mind that you understand him correct the next time you give me some advice though. I am keen on building a scientific system rather than a mentalist one.

Last edited by petosiris; 05-20-2019 at 01:47 AM.
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  #159  
Unread 05-20-2019, 01:54 AM
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No comprendo.
The Magnetic Field Matrix, which is what astrology is all about, is both within us and all around us. The best we can achieve is subjective objectivity. Some are attracted to astrology, some are repelled, others are ambivalent.
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  #160  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:07 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Some are attracted to astrology, some are repelled, others are ambivalent.
It is a contentious subject, so it is bound to have polarizing opinions. Either the planets are able influence your life (or able to perfectly synchronize with 7 billion people) or they don't.
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  #161  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:07 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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The Magnetic Field Matrix, which is what astrology is all about, is both within us and all around us. The best we can achieve is subjective objectivity. Some are attracted to astrology, some are repelled, others are ambivalent.
Now that's a mixed metaphor...
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  #162  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:11 AM
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Now that's a mixed metaphor...
Subjective objectivity means being objective from your own viewpoint. It won't be one-size-fits-all.
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  #163  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:21 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Regarding astrology, it was much easier to be more subjectively subjective prior to the introduction of Heliocentrism into the mix.
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  #164  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:27 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Regarding astrology, it was much easier to be more subjectively subjective prior to the introduction of Heliocentrism into the mix.
Now it is easier to be objectively objective?
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  #165  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:45 AM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Now it is easier to be objectively objective?
No, just subjectively objective. It's both within us and without us, so pure objectivity is impossible.
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  #166  
Unread 05-20-2019, 02:54 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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No, just subjectively objective. It's both within us and without us, so pure objectivity is impossible.
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  #167  
Unread 05-20-2019, 03:11 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

ptolemy, are you on a quest to develop a purely objective explanation for how astrology works?
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  #168  
Unread 05-20-2019, 03:28 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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ptolemy, are you on a quest to develop a purely objective explanation for how astrology works?
Why do you care?
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  #169  
Unread 05-20-2019, 03:29 AM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Fortunately, the ability to start a fire using a spinning stick of wood to create enough heat to ignite the tinder didn't have to wait until modern physics could explain the coefficient of friction.
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  #170  
Unread 05-20-2019, 03:31 AM
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Why do you care?
I gain valuable insights from your efforts.
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  #171  
Unread 05-20-2019, 04:22 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Siriusly
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  #172  
Unread 05-20-2019, 05:01 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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No matter how much you sugarcoat it, you are clever enough to know what I mean.
Actually, not. What do you mean by a "cold reading"? No need to be coy about it.
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  #173  
Unread 05-20-2019, 05:13 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna_principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

Is that what you mean by work?
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  #174  
Unread 05-20-2019, 05:13 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Skeptics don't pursue astrology because they think its waste of time, waybread you pursue astrology despite agreeing that its waste of time (by which I mean that it is an objective phenomenon). I however pursue it (like most others, practitioners or not) because I do think it is an objective phenomenon, so there lie our differences (of ''allegiance'').
Don't lie about what I think. Where did I say it's a "waste of time"? Go find my posts where you could quote me on this. If you have questions about why I do astrology despite maintaining some healthy skepticism about it, just ask.

Frankly, I find it fascinating, and learned after reading charts for people on-line that I have some aptitude for it. I wouldn't be bothered if astrology could be proved to be bogus. Obviously, you would be mightily bothered.

I'm now well over 13,000 posts on this forum plus thousands at Astrodienst and a bunch at Skyscript. Why would I waste my time on astrology if I thought about it as you fabricate? Obviously you don't understand where I'm coming from and that unsettles you to the point of having to lob insults, in default of rational engagement.

Certainly a huge amount of astrology is objective. But its underlying practice occurs in the mind of the astrologer engaging in a form of graphic communication called a horoscope.

That should go without saying for you.

BTW, I read charts for people from Muslim countries and India with some regularity-- sometimes Indians actually want a western chart reading. You might spend more time perusing the different threads on this forum.

Petosiris, I am sorry that you find me so threatening.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 05-20-2019 at 05:17 AM.
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  #175  
Unread 05-20-2019, 05:17 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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I wouldn't be bothered if astrology could be proved to be bogus. Obviously, you would be mightily bothered.
Yes, it would bother me if it proved to be bogus. But you wouldn't mind if you happened to be tricking yourself or other people?
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