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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #1  
Unread 10-05-2020, 05:44 AM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Location,location, location

Hi everyone,
Just how important is finding and using the precise location when casting an astrological chart? The answer? Very. For many people creating astrological charts using a precise latitude and longitude is not considered a necessity. Why not? For years finding the location to use when creating a chart involved looking in huge atlases filled with center of city latitudes and longitudes. But in many large metropolitan areas a birth can occur some significant distance from the city's center.

Fortunately these days there are handheld GPS units, cellphones with GPS capabilities and mapping programs on the internet. This makes things far easier when looking for precise co-ordinates of birth locations. Many commercially available astrology programs have the aforementioned atlases built in as databases. Be careful if you are relying on their information. The following example shows why.


Selecting Queens, New York City, New York returns
40N43'
073W52'
Finding the coordinates for Jamaica Hospital, Queens, New York City, New York, in an online mapping application returns
40N41'59''
073W48'55''

"So, what's the big deal, the difference is a small amount?" you might ask. The difference is accuracy. Those small amounts of latitude and longitude affect the calculation of the house cusps. This often makes chart verification difficult or impossible. That is because longitude is time, true local time actually. TLT is used when determining the MC from whence all the other house cusps are derived. The latitude determines the degree of the sign on the ASC. Therefore precise location of the native at birth is very important. Using the two slightly different locations above returns the following.

Selecting Queens, New York City, New York After a run through Incarn2 with this data it returns
ASC 27 Cancer 49' 31"
MC 12 Aries 08' 34"
Finding the coordinates for Jamaica Hospital, Queens, New York City, New York, in an online mapping application returns
ASC 27 Cancer 47' 37"
MC 12 Aries 06' 45"

A two minute difference on the ASC.
A two minute difference on the MC.

I work with a 4', of arc, orb to verify charts. A two to three minute difference of the ASC or MC can make it difficult or impossible to verify a chart with this built in error. And the two minutes of difference in the MC or ASC would mean that many secondary progressions to the MC or ASC might not show anywhere close enough in time to be useful. This is from Trump's natal chart with secondary progressions to 8 November, 2016. The US Presidential Election.

Selecting Queens, New York City, New York returns
1. PRO Mercury trine NAT MC, exact on 16 November. Sun ruler combined with MC
2. PRO MC parallel NAT North Node, in north declination. Destiny?
3. PRO MC conjunct PRO Uranus. Something new and different.
4. PRO MC parallel PRO Uranus, in north declination. Strongly reinforces the above aspect.
5. PRO Uranus parallel NAT Sun, in north declination.
6. PRO North Node contra-parallel NAT Moon. Activation of the ASC as well.
7. PRO North Node parallel NAT Uranus, in north declination.
8. PRO Mercury conjunct PRO Pluto. The Sun ruler combined with Pluto. Very powerful.
9. PRO North Node parallel NAT Venus, in north declination. This one is a bit wide of 4'

Progressed declinations and outer planet longitudes often take a considerable amount of time to form exact aspects. That is why having good data is so important in determining the correct ASC and MC. In the example above only one aspect involves the MC directly. The difference in time is eight days from that which uses the precise LAT & LON.

Finding the coordinates for Jamaica Hospital, Queens, New York City, New York, in an online mapping application returns
1. PRO Mercury trine NAT MC, exact on election day. Sun ruler combined with MC
Have you any idea how powerful this single aspect is in determining that the correct TIME and LOCATION for the chart has been used?
A progressed inner planet is forming an EXACT aspect to the proper natal angle on the day of the event.
If the time were off by a few minutes or possibly even less than 60 seconds or if the location data were inaccurate this aspect would not have formed exactly on the day of the event.
2. PRO MC parallel NAT North Node, in north declination. Destiny?
3. PRO MC conjunct PRO Uranus. Something new and different.
4. PRO MC parallel PRO Uranus, in north declination. Strongly reinforces the above aspect.
5. PRO Uranus parallel NAT Sun, in north declination.
6. PRO North Node contra-parallel NAT Moon. Activation of the ASC as well.
7. PRO North Node parallel NAT Uranus, in north declination.
8. PRO Mercury conjunct PRO Pluto. The Sun ruler combined with Pluto. Very powerful.
9. PRO North Node parallel NAT Venus, in north declination. This one is a bit wide of 4' orb.

Now imagine how much more error could creep in using whole minute birth times or indifferent locations, like the center of New York City. Or even worse physical birth times.

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  #2  
Unread 11-15-2020, 01:20 PM
Ecliptique Ecliptique is offline
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Re: Location,location, location

Hello,

without wanting to go into details, I think it is good to remember that it is necessary to attach a lot of importance to the time of birth (the most real) knowing the time of the birth certificate and any other indication given by a loved one present during childbirth as well as the precise place of birth (hospital, clinic, family home, etc.), in particular in large metropolises and remote places (usefulness of the geographical coordinates given by the GPS). These birth data make it possible to know precisely the Local Sidereal Time and therefore the positions of the MC, the Ascendant and the House cusps.

Ecliptique.
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  #3  
Unread 11-15-2020, 01:29 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Location,location, location

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecliptique View Post
Hello,

without wanting to go into details, I think it is good to remember that it is necessary to attach a lot of importance to the time of birth (the most real) knowing the time of the birth certificate and any other indication given by a loved one present during childbirth as well as the precise place of birth (hospital, clinic, family home, etc.), in particular in large metropolises and remote places (usefulness of the geographical coordinates given by the GPS). These birth data make it possible to know precisely the Local Sidereal Time and therefore the positions of the MC, the Ascendant and the House cusps.

Ecliptique.



A detailed introduction to birth chart rectification

which is used to find your birth time and Ascendant
when it is otherwise unknown or uncertain


How to Rectify Your Birth Chart and Find Your Correct Birth Time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkQZ9o0oIxI



Many techniques in astrology require an accurate birth time to work
and this is why rectification can be crucial
or even necessary
for people who don't know what time they were born.
In this video we try to provide
a pretty detailed introduction to the subject
and outline our specific approach
which emphasizes how to find the correct rising sign
by using whole sign houses
and some related techniques.
This is the video version of episode 169 of The Astrology Podcast
featuring astrologers Chris Brennan
Leisa Schaim
and
Patrick Watson.
There is a full written outline
and a higher quality audio version of this episode available
on the podcast website


.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #4  
Unread 11-15-2020, 02:07 PM
Ecliptique Ecliptique is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: France.
Posts: 119
Re: Location,location, location

Hello Jupiterasc,

thank you for the video but I only speak French fluently. However, for texts written in English, I can always translate them with Google.
I found this link which I translated:
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2018...ur-birth-time/
I especially noted the following sentence: Establishing the evidence for the rectification by talking with the client.

Ecliptique.
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  #5  
Unread 11-15-2020, 11:31 PM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Posts: 29
Re: Location,location, location

True. And in the same way that exact location co-ordinates are desired, so is the exact time. All too many physical birth times are recorded, at best to the nearest minute. Many have been rounded to quarter, half or whole hours. The MC is dependent on both the time and longitude. A variation in time causes a variation in the MC similar to the variation in longitude. If you have access to an astrology program it is easy to see this effect. Cast a chart for a whole minute in time, any chart will do. Subtract or add one minute of time, recast the chart. See how much this changes the MC. That difference in the angles and house cusps can mean that timing events will be way off or not even show up. The time used to cast a chart should be exact to the second. How you determine this exact second based on a physical birth is anyone's guess.

A simple rule of thumb. One degree of longitude at the equator = 60 nautical miles = four minutes of time. A difference of one minute in time = a difference of 15 minutes(approx) of arc on the MC.
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  #6  
Unread 11-16-2020, 10:54 AM
Ecliptique Ecliptique is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: France.
Posts: 119
Re: Location,location, location

Hello David Phoenix,

all this is even more interesting when it is possible to establish a very precise birth chart for any birth in any lost hamlet or even beyond the polar circle to the pole (locatable by GPS) . The goal is to envisage with precision the future of this native in advance and that this is verified each time at the time of the lived experiences. That's all I wanted to add.

Ecliptique.
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  #7  
Unread 11-16-2020, 01:19 PM
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Opal Opal is offline
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Re: Location,location, location

Hi David,

I agree that accuracy in birth data is necessary for accuracy in the natal chart. How is the system that you use, in accuracy for people born in the Arctic and Antarctic regions? Would you use an equal house system? Or?
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  #8  
Unread 11-16-2020, 01:35 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Posts: 73,543
Re: Location,location, location

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Phoenix View Post


True. And in the same way that exact location co-ordinates are desired, so is the exact time. All too many physical birth times are recorded, at best to the nearest minute. Many have been rounded to quarter, half or whole hours. The MC is dependent on both the time and longitude. A variation in time causes a variation in the MC similar to the variation in longitude. If you have access to an astrology program it is easy to see this effect. Cast a chart for a whole minute in time, any chart will do. Subtract or add one minute of time, recast the chart. See how much this changes the MC. That difference in the angles and house cusps can mean that timing events will be way off or not even show up. The time used to cast a chart should be exact to the second. How you determine this exact second based on a physical birth is anyone's guess.

A simple rule of thumb. One degree of longitude at the equator = 60 nautical miles = four minutes of time. A difference of one minute in time = a difference of 15 minutes(approx) of arc on the MC.

Clearly, astrology is an exact science

however
there are many who use inccorrect data for a natal chart

then hilariously
complain at the resulting "inaccuracy" of delineation



.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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