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  #1  
Unread 01-14-2008, 12:13 PM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Bullies and Victims

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Unread 01-14-2008, 10:46 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Very interesting!!
To say the obvious,
I think that one bullies to gain power that they are hungry for. Like the article says; one bullies to take back power lost. I dont think that bullies are just bullies for no reason, there is a deeper psychological issue than that.
I think about those with pluto on the ascendant who desire power, then I think of those with pluto on the descendant who gives power to others. I wonder if there is a connection with that?
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Unread 01-14-2008, 11:26 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

I would be interested in the astrological indicators of victims and persecutors also. So many of life's social interactions revolve around the victim-persecutor-rescuer positions. Depending on the level of involvement in this type of engagement by a person (pathology) we are once again looking at mental health.

I suggest looking at role model indicators of Sun - Moon to start with.

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Unread 01-14-2008, 11:43 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

When analyzing any chart it is obvious to look at the sun and moon, Kingsley. However it is the need to look at the sun, moon and the planets involved with power and agression, in their negative state, which would be pluto and mars.
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Unread 01-14-2008, 11:48 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

I was looking around the internet and I saw:

Quote:
Children with the Sun in the twelfth house are bullied at school. There are few exceptions to this even though they themselves may never speak about it because they are sad and ashamed.


I remembered this passage because I have my Sun in the Twelfth House.


I just saw this on the same page:

Quote:
People with Mars in the twelfth, are bullied by those close to them, particularly sexual partners. Hindu astrologers give Mars in the twelfth house kujadosha status for this reason and consider it very seriously when looking at marriage charts. I am asking Sudhiranad to tell us a bit more about this.

Last edited by inhuman_meow; 01-14-2008 at 11:52 PM.
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Unread 01-14-2008, 11:53 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Interesting topic. I'm interested (supposedly because of relationships I've had with victims of abuse - but also, I guess, because I was bullied myself in school - the portrait the OP quoted of the victim is painfully accurate about that time of my life) in how victims carry a kind of "mark of Cain" around with them, which bullies can immediately latch onto. It takes enormous effort to get rid of this "open invitation", to obscure it, or to defend it if someone does spot it and act on it.

Astrologically - I can speak from my own chart and experience, and also speak with less authority on a speculative basis.

From my own chart, I'd propose that a victim of bullying might show:

- A poverty of planets in Fire signs. I have only Neptune in Sag; Chiron in Aries as the only other "planet" in Fire seems to be a curse rather than a blessing - a "-1" for Fire rather than a "+1"!
- Jupiter and/or Mars in difficult placements or aspects. I have Mars in Aquarius square Jupiter. Jupiter itself is opposed to Saturn.
- Mars in the 4th house. I interpret this as meaning assertive/defensive energy is focused in the foundations and home, thus less is available to go outward into social situations.
- Mars in a difficult aspect to Sun? Particularly Mars as the focal point of a Yod (I don't have this)
- A strong Pluto. I'm not sure what this means, but what I'm trying to get across is the idea of "Pluto present in the rest of the chart, i.e. related to it, possibly through aspects - but not harmoniously". I have Pluto square Sun and Mercury, trine Saturn. Perhaps the Pluto trine Saturn is key here? The idea that power will be experienced as a limitation and constraint.

As for bullies themselves. Mars would seem to be the key. I'm not sure
whether a Mars-Pluto relation is relevant, since that seems to me to be more about power-struggles, i.e. a battle between two approximately equivalent powers, rather than about the excessive and uncontrolled extension of power against no resistance.

Would Mars dignified, in a Fire sign, and unaspected to the other planets - i.e. unmediated - or as a singleton, perhaps be it? Definitely no aspect between Mars and Saturn.

Thinking aloud here...
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Unread 01-15-2008, 12:18 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingsteph
When analyzing any chart it is obvious to look at the sun and moon, Kingsley. However it is the need to look at the sun, moon and the planets involved with power and agression, in their negative state, which would be pluto and mars.
Yes I agree the sun and moon are important that is why the quality of these two luminaries are are important when assessing the potential relational concerns. Bullies are only hurt and sad underneath thats one reason why they project their anger onto others. It would be pertinent to look for the sensitivities and woundings and how the defensive process works.

The bully to survive requires a victim in order to complete persecutory process though and thats why it becomes a relational concern. One can be a bully internally or externally however usually its both. It is a self esteem issue for both bully and victim.

Mars/Pluto may or may not play a role in the chart of a bully however I understand that power and the loss of that is involved.

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Unread 01-15-2008, 07:19 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

For me I think it depends utterly on whether or not there are healthy outlets for both bullies and victims. I find that many times violence enters the picture because of particular squares, and even more violence when kids make unhealthy responses to those squares.

I personally start with the Sun-Moon-Ascendent. and how they relate to Mars and Pluto. Pluto to me always seem to roam large in ones birthchart during darker periods.
Bullies may have more expressive charts than that of victims, such as many leos, aries, 5th,7th, 8th,10th, 11th houses that suggests where the energies are taking place. Victims on the other may as well turn out the opposite, having more timid, prudent, introverted charts. But that also suggests forms of implosions when angered.
So it really depends on how individuals cope and respond to their own charts I guess.

But my main reason however, would be on squares. Squares seem to always be particularly heady, since its a kind of restlessness and tension in that person that can't be resolved, only handled with caution or pray for someone with a steady hand to help them out.
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Unread 01-15-2008, 07:25 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

During a Pluto transit, one tends to really get called to account to attend to being on either side of the bull / vistim fence
During a Pluto transit
- The bully will be challenged at every step in an attempt to stop their behaviour
- the victim will be trampled during the transit if they dont take the power of Pluto available to them during the transit. More than any other time the power is accessable to them during a Pluto transit.
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Unread 01-15-2008, 08:19 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

This is the chart of a Bully. He does tend to get into others personal space and has quite negative things to say about others. In fact, the way he might relate (get close) with others is to put them down.



What are at least two sets of aspect functions that are obvious for bullying in this chart?

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Unread 01-15-2008, 08:38 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by inhuman_meow
I was looking around the internet and I saw:

Quote:
Children with the Sun in the twelfth house are bullied at school. There are few exceptions to this even though they themselves may never speak about it because they are sad and ashamed.
D: well that's depressing. though it would explain why i was picked on so much during my early years

sun and venus in 12th house >.<
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Unread 01-15-2008, 08:50 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Makes sense Xixxa, bullies do seem to have a strong grasp on who they are. Or at least they give that appearance to others. They gotta be someone quickly it seems otherwise they fear psychic destruction.

The 12th house Sun person takes their time to establish a sense of identity and therefore will be open (read vulnerable) to the bullies need to exersize his authority. Hope you learned to stand up to bullies now.

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Unread 01-15-2008, 09:33 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

with both luminaries in the 12th, do you reckon that could ever be the sign of a bully?.......this is funny, cause yesterday in a PM i was told by an obvious hater of my work(!) that i was a cyber bully..........and i have them in the 12th.....cap
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Unread 01-15-2008, 10:43 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Thats not fair being called those things Liquid. As I understand New Moon babies; they are forever searching for reflections of themselves to establish a sense of identity. The best way to establish identity according to developmental stages theory (which relates to teenagers) is to have lots of friends or hanging out in groups doing stuff. Hopefully in that way, a sense of identity can be reflected back from the group.

Usually one will find though, that the group is made up of like minded, supportive friends or people so that process can be achieved safely. Perhaps in your case there are others trying to achieve the same process and things become a little competitive. As I have said before, Pisceans tend become bullies when they feel cornered in some way. Perhaps that is how your 12th house luminaries are working in this instance. Its ok to learn in this manner even though it can be hard sometimes. My aquarian Moon loves it.

I certainly do not see you as a "Perpetrator" as far as Victim, Persecutor and Rescuer relationships go Liquid.

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Unread 01-15-2008, 11:07 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

thanks.....I do try to stick up for myself.....but dont feel i have ever been a perpatrator...........more a responder...........not that i give a rats bottom anyway.....total wally was that dude anyway!
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Unread 01-15-2008, 11:13 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

My cousin has five Aries planets in the 5th and is a gentle sweet create person.
But I know some people with 12th house planets who play their power card by being passive aggressive or getting someone else riled up in the nicest possible way then when the other person explodes these folk say oh what a nasty person.

Like all house placements there are many and varied ways they play out and yes my sweet cousin had a hard time at school as she felt she did not fit in. But she is a girl with real style & creativity & certianly has her own circle of friends now.

The other person/s I mentioned doing the passive aggressive or projecting thing are perhaps acting out the 12th house placement from a less positive space.
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Unread 01-15-2008, 11:16 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

well stated natasha

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Unread 01-15-2008, 04:07 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsley
This is the chart of a Bully. He does tend to get into others personal space and has quite negative things to say about others. In fact, the way he might relate (get close) with others is to put them down.



What are at least two sets of aspect functions that are obvious for bullying in this chart?

kingsley
Hi Kingsley

Since I'm new in this forum, and relatively new to astrology, and I suspect that you're posing a little challenge here, I'll give it a try. Then maybe you can tell me what you think of my interpretation.

I'm exploring the effect the "bully/victim/rescuer" triumvirate has had on my own life at the moment (I think you're spot-on in putting these three roles together into a mutually self-supporting group), as it's caused me a lot of trouble. So I'd be very interested in reading your response. If you're willing to put on a "teacher" hat here, there's a lot I can learn!

1) Mars in the 1st House of self. Not an indicator of bullying in itself, merely of a lot of potential for expressing oneself assertively/agressively. But look at Mars' relationship to the rest of the chart. There's a strong "system" in this chart, comprising the rectangle, with Pluto and Jupiter hanging off it, still related; and with the unaspected 8th House planets still "related" to it by stellium. Poor old Mars is right outside the system, unintegrated - no aspects connecting it to the system. This suggests that the Mars energy will tend to "miss road" (Fela Kuti in his song of this name: "If you miss your road, don't come my way!").

2) Venus and the Moon are the other planets which stand out as being unintegrated. But they stand together with Mars in aspects. So the person will find expressing their emotions through aggression/assertion easy (Mars sext. Moon), but will have difficulty in making this fruitful (Mars square Venus). I'm taking Mars/Venus relationships in general to be about "making your life beautiful and satisfying through your own efforts".

3) So there's a strongly, even oppressively self-contained system ruling this person's life. Like a busy roundabout (PS: this is a very common type of British road-intersection, I know Americans for one find them bizarre as you don't have them in your country! Don't remember seeing many in Aus either) - so many cars going round and round that it's very difficult to push in and join the flow, thus changing it. It neglects Mars (aggressive, brave energy), Moon (emotions) and Venus (getting sweetness out of life).

4) One pillar of the rectangular "system" is Chiron opp Sun and Saturn in close conjunction. Ouch! Easy, natural self-expression is tightly constrained, and this is experienced as very painful. Maybe the following is more of a Chiron-Venus-type thing, but what comes to mind is Hagen's Watch in the last of Wagner's Ring-cycle of operas. Hagen (a dark, huge, violent, brooding man, definitely a bully) is half-asleep, and his father Alberich creeps up to whispers evil into his dreams. "Hate the joyful, hate easily-happy people, hate joy" he whispers. This is to incite Hagen to commit murder and betrayal, just so that Alberich can get his Ring of power back. Although Alberich constantly reminds Hagen that he's his son (i.e. "you owe me"), he doesn't give a toss about Hagen himself. I think Hagen in this scene is a very powerful portrayal of the bully-mentality - he's also a victim.
(BTW, if you don't care to sit through 16 hours of music, as I'm not sure I do anymore, you can read about the great material in that story in Robert Donington's Jungian analysis of it: "Wagner's Ring and its symbols").

5) Pluto is very strong, in its own sign of Scorpio. (Is the word for this "dignified"?) It also gives power to the Chiron-Sun/Saturn opp, by squaring both ends. Pluto is always somewhere in a chart - I'm taking it to be significant here because it has strong, difficult aspects to another aspect which is already painful and difficult. I don't know what significance there might be to Pluto being in the 6th.

I haven't attempted to figure out planets in signs much, this is due to inexperience. Or the 8th House stellium. I have one of these myself, Sun/Mercury/Venus/Saturn, all in Gemini except for Saturn in Taurus, and I'm really not sure how much significance they have with respect to the bully/victim/rescuer complex (though I'm definitely a victim/rescuer - possibly only not a bully due to other factors which made it impossible!).
(BTW, what is the object at the cusp of the 8th House - a red symbol like two nested bowls with smoke rising from them, squared to Jupiter? I've never seen that glyph before).
Also I don't know what the significance of the Nodes might be.

Thanks for reading. If Kingsley or anyone can critique my interpretation, anything I'm getting wrong, point out things I've missed, it would be a great help - both in terms of my astro-knowledge, and in terms of understanding this bully/victim/rescuer business.

all the best!
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Unread 01-15-2008, 04:38 PM
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bully indicators, to Kingsley

Kingsley,

You said:
Quote:
What are at least two sets of aspect functions that are obvious for bullying in this chart?
I don't know if these are "obvious" but this is what stood out to me:
- Least aspected Venus (relationships) in sign of its detriment (Aries - being, also action), indicating someone who wants to "conquer" in relationships...however, since Venus is Least aspected the bully barely "connects in" to "relationships" at all, so they are continually trying to get that "conquering" feeling

- Least aspected Venus's only aspect is to a square (energy needs to be combined with) with Mars (being, also action, anger) in fall (very challenging energy) focused in the 1rst house (being, also action, anger), indicating the relationships issues lead to angry, frustrated actions

Guessing,

Tim
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Unread 01-16-2008, 04:06 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shining Ray
Inhuman meow - Good point on the 12th house planets. I have read the Sun in 12th can indicate inferiority feelings and poor self esteem. Early messages can revolve around feelings of a person having no right to exist. I suppose that is how bully's make the 12th house person feel. In Tracy Marks 12th house book, she says that "low self esteem can fuel self defeating behaviors, and that these people can have internal negative messages and can put themselves in situations that prove that they are unworthy and may put themselves in humiliating situations."
:/ usually they don't make me feel worthless but i find it very difficult and stand up for myself. and when i do it makes it no better that they all gang up on me. my physical stature isn't very large.
i remember once when someone stole some discs i had brought to school. i found the person and confronted them and they just turned around and said, "what do you want little girl?"
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi...Sd-u1200163236
here's my chart anyways. it'd be nice to know what in my chart gives off the impression of vulnerability.

Quote:
Undertoad - I would think a lack of fire also for the victim, and Pluto I would think issues of power, how power is used, some feel dominated in their lives with Pluto others are the dominate ones. I would think Mars for bully's is a mis use of Mars. Victims don't seem to be able to use their Mars and powers of assertion and the ability to fight back. While bully's have no problem asserting themselves, maybe they have lots of fire and a dominant Mars. Mars unaspected - I have read gets locked down in the basement of the chart, doesn't get to interact with the other planets, and so Mars may overreact to make itself known. Usually it can lie dormant until a transit or another person triggers it off.
Chanvayu - Yes I would think someone with the ability to express themselves, with lots of fire would put a more forceful energy out there. Not as timid. Mars and Pluto does show up a lot in power battles.
i guess that would explain some of it...
i barely have any fire in my chart at all...
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Unread 01-16-2008, 09:08 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Interesting topic.

You did not 'provide' many bullies, but as the thing can be so much to do with social inclusion/exclusion of others - who is 'in,' who is 'out,' a misuse of the challenges of a Sun-Saturn in Aquarius square Chiron seems apt there. I do think that school is one of the first places where interractions with peers - so groups - gets to be important - fertile areas for power isses to get played out there, I should think.

Personally, I do not much care for any philsophy that justifies 'might is right' whtehter or not at school, or later on at work, on the internet, or in arenas larger than that.

A rising Saturn, which did appear in one of your 'victim' charts is something else I might have expected. I hope I am not commenting out of turn on what might be confidential isues there.

The current generation of kids have the Pluto in Scorpio, as well as the Neptune/Uranus conjunction. Maybe tere is already more sensitivity and awarenes of the ways understanding certain kinds of emotions, weaknesses can be exploited anyway, plus more sophisticated opportunities (such as the internet) to be able to do this.
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Unread 01-16-2008, 12:44 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Hello Nexus, I have a few more charts however I am hoping to inspire others to look through their own files for such confirmations. I do have plenty more where that came from though. I am still proving these things for myself too and in some cases have the benefit of knowing my sebjects well and over several years.

You are correct of course to identify the Sun Saturn Chiron configuration. There is a Pluto topping off a Tsquare too. I also see the Mercury in Pisces conjunct Black Moon to represent that blind side to acknowledging these behaviours in self and the unbridled manner in which behaviours emerge for the person. Usually after some time, the Bully gets to appreciate behaviours and thinking patterns however here the process seems endless. The same configuration you mention also describes some critical styles of treatment recieved and thus the internalised and externalised shaming process and need for power.

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Unread 01-17-2008, 01:34 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Quote:
Children with the Sun in the twelfth house are bullied at school. There are few exceptions to this even though they themselves may never speak about it because they are sad and ashamed.
I think this is kind of oversimplified; I was a real bully victim in my highschool period and my sun is in the 7th house. (However, every time I skim a characterization of a 12 house sun I relate to it way more than to my 7th house sun.)
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Unread 01-17-2008, 06:36 PM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

I think bullies are always cowards seeking assurance and attention because essentially they lack confidence.

Mars will always be weak and afflicted in the chart of a bully (although not necessarily so in the chart of the victim).

Mars Saturn afflictions are common in the charts of bullies. One bully I knew had Mars conjunct Saturn with Mercury in between, in Aquarius square Neptune in Scorpio.

On my list of famous bullies I have Ivan the Terrible, who was unbelievably cruel. He had Sun conjunct Mars in Virgo both square Saturn in Gemini.

Bobby Brown, the abusive husband of Whitney Houston, has Mars exact quincunx Saturn, forming part of an exact yod with Luna.

Marquis de Sade, whose name is literally the source for the word "sadism", had Mars square Saturn from Aries to Cancer.

Last edited by wilsontc; 01-17-2008 at 10:23 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 01-21-2008, 07:08 AM
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Re: Bullies and Victims

Hi Wayne, whichever way one looks at the situation both bully and victim have self esteem issues. One would hope that they could both develop assertiveness skills and get through difficult social relating circumstances.

Perhaps the bully has more rebellious kinds of energy and in time can re direct their energy into structured persuits instead of blaming others for their low self esteem.

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