plutonian relationships-what do you think?

lostris

Active member
I'd like to know about your opinions on plutonian relationships. I mean lots of pluto aspects to personal planets in synastry and composite both. Do most of the synastry/composite charts have pluto aspects? Or is it something rare? I guess not so rare and when it happens it is one out-of-control relationship. Opinions, anyone?
Thanks a lot in advance.
 

miquar

Well-known member
I don't know what the statistical likelihoods are of having a certain number of Pluto contacts in a particular kind of relationship. But as far as having one's Pluto contacted by another person's planets, especially their Sun, Moon, Ascendant and other personal planets, it basically means that the Pluto person's primal feelings will be triggered by the other person. The rest depends largely on the level at which the Pluto person is living out their Plutonian energy, which can't necessarily be seen from looking at the way Pluto is positioned in the chart (eg hard aspects to personal planets doesn't necessarily reflect that the person is manifesting the negative side of Pluto).

I'm going to borrow quotes from Stephen Arroyo's Chart Interpretation Handbook to portray the two sides of Plutonian expression, because I think he sums up Pluto brilliantly here:

'Positive Expression: Acceptance of the need to focus one's mind and will power on one's own transformation; having the courage to face one's deepest desires and compulsions and to transmute them through effort and intensity of experience.'

'Negative Expression: Compulsive expression of subconscious cravings; wilful manipulation of others to serve one's own ends; ruthlessly using any means to avoid the pain of facing oneself; infatuation with power.'

A person whose Pluto is strongly triggered by another person will take one of these paths (or a mixture of both of them at different times) due to the intense feelings and primal survival instincts that Pluto symbolises.

In a composite chart I think a strong Pluto would indicate that the relationship itself is involved in a power struggle (or sharing of resources) with some external agent, has the effect of manifesting something socially taboo which could potentially bring about the transformation of social values or society's understanding of something, and/or involves the conscious pursuit of some evolutionary goal for the individuals or for society as a whole.

Hope this is useful...
 

miquar

Well-known member
I just noticed the bit in your post about the relationship being out of control. It could be that the Pluto person goes out of their way to maintain control. And this can be masked very effectively by a relaxed persona. But yes, the Pluto person could be very much out of control. This could be the case with a person whose Pluto is not that strong natally, but who, perhaps under an appropriate transit or progression involving their neglected Pluto, meets someone who really arouses all that passion and all hell breaks loose because the intense feelings of Pluto are so unfamiliar.
 

lostris

Active member
Thanks a lot for your really insightful explanations Miguar. The thing here is that both of us have our plutos aspected by the other's personal planets. These are the synastry aspects with Pluto. The first planets are mine.
Moon trine Pluto
Venus opposition Pluto
Pluto opposition Venus
Pluto trine Mars
North Node trine Pluto

And these are the composite chart aspects with pluto
venus opposition pluto
sun opposition pluto
mercury opposition pluto

You can see that pluto is all over the place on both sides. Also there are lots of pluto aspects in composite too. And these are the hard aspects indeed. So I don't know which one of us is out of control. But they say that the person with natal aspects to pluto would be the one who is affected more in these relationships. I have two of these aspects:
Venus opposition Pluto and Moon Trine Pluto. And he has one: Mars Trine Pluto.
In this case both of us are affected I guess. But I think I'm the one who is acting more like the pluto person especially because of the venus-pluto in my natal chart.
All you said is so true. I've never been through something like this in my life. This is so weird. The person in this relationship is not me, she is some crazy *****. And I'm normally a person who is in total control of herself and the situation. But with this person, no. He always does things or says things that make me crazy with rage. I'm always very impulsive with him. I usually tell him something and then immediately go "what did I just say?" and feel remorse. I feel an obsessive love and hate towards him at the same time. And I guess he feels the same way about me. You see this is a totally platonic thing at work. He happens to be my director. We fight a lot in front of all these colleagues and after that we go on about our business like these arguments have never happened. We are also very polite to each other. Each of us tries to protect the other at work. He is especially very protective of me and so kind to me but also he is scared hell out of me.
Well I guess with all these pluto aspects this is what you get. But this is the most trying relationship I've ever had in all my life, that's all I can say.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi. There can be a strong Plutonian theme in a relationship where neither person in out of control - it depends on the individuals.

And with regard to the person with more natal aspects to Pluto being more affected, that also depends - if they natally have personal planets contacting their Pluto, then they will be familiar with Pluto, and they will have probably experienced many relationships of all kinds, beginning at birth, where their Pluto was contacted along with these personal planets. This person might be struggling to express Pluto creatively, but it probably be nothing new.

A person whose Pluto is not integrated well with the rest of their natal chart, especially if they have a chart which has a predominance of 'Plutonian' values and tendencies, will not be so familiar with Pluto, and may have had relationships in the past which don't contact Pluto very much. This person may have quite a shock when a relationship arouses their Pluto from its slumber! This would usually happen along with a Pluto-related transit of progression.

It sounds like you might fit into the 2nd paragraph even though you have Moon trine Pluto, you say. Is it a wide aspect, or is the Moon in sign that doesn't get on with Pluto, or have other parts of your natal chart tended to shut Pluto out in the past?

Venus Pluto would seem to be a very strong theme in the relationship from the aspects you mentioned in the synastry and composite. So the two Arroyo quotes potentially apply to both of you and might come out more through Venus issues: values, beautification, harmonisation, artistic taste and endeavour, the sensual and erotic side of sex, self-worth, resources, talents, etc.

Its interesting that you try hard to be polite to one another after an argument - as though your Venus's are trying extra hard to keep the less civilised Pluto energy at bay, perhaps?

If this is the first relationship that has felt so compulsive, it could be that you are someone who has tended to adapt to life through thinking rather than feeling. Its important to value all of the feelings that come up for you, but also of course to refrain from acting them out compulsively. It could be a deeply transformative relationship. When the intense feelings come up for you, maybe try separating the feeling from him - just feel it inside you. Observing non-judgementally is the key to working with difficult feelings. These feelings come from a deep and powerful place inside you - a vast reservoir of insight, passion and strength. But to tap into that reservoir creatively you may need to allow bits of yourself to be destroyed in Pluto's fire. It can feel very frightening to let these parts of us burn away without us trying to defend them, but they are no longer needed and need to be destroyed in order for us to be liberated and creative individuals. Rather than staying in the threatened part of you, try to be aware of it from another - the eye of the storm, as they say. From here it will be less frightening because you won't be so identified with the bit of you that needs to be destoyed by Pluto. There will still be uncomfortable feelings and body sensations, but you won't feel so much like you are fighting for your survival when things get heated.

Try not to control anything Venusian about one another - to try to control is to stay identified with, and in fierce defence of, the emotional baggage that you need to let go of.
 

lostris

Active member
Thank you so much Miquar. You know it is so nice to be able to have a conversation with someone who is interested in and knows a lot about astrology. It is something that I've needed :happy:. Thank you first of all for that. And thank you for all your comments.
The moon-pluto aspect is 9 degrees but I have my moon in capricorn. I'm actually not a person who has not experienced strong emotions. I usually feel about everything so very deeply that I cannot bear the effects of these emotions on me so I try not to feel or try to supress them. And also I feel very weak and threatened if I accidentally show my emotions. So on the surface I'm always a collected and cool person. Only emotion I'm capable of showing is anger and fury. I think that's because it makes me look like strong. I wouldn't anyone to think about me as emotional and weak. You see being emotional to me is equal to being weak. I know this is not true but I that's how I feel. This is something I'm working on. So you see you are right on saying that I feel rather than feeling. That is so true.
I guess that's why I'm so afraid of all these feelings I have toward this person. Because this is the first and only relationship and situation that I've felt powerless against.
We hurt each other very much for most of the time. To be able to hurt the other is like a weapon for each of us. We use that. But using it is not like a choice. It just happens so spontaneously. And afterwards we feel so bad about ourselves and about the way we treated each other. This is how I feel. I think he feels the same way because whenever we fight he makes something up about work as an excuse to call me and he talks very politely and he is very sweet. I think this is because we have lots of nice aspects too in composite.
sun conjunct venus
venus trine neptune
sun conjunct mercury
sun trine neptune
sun sextile saturn
mercury sextile saturn

Sun conjunct venus expresses a strong love between two persons against all odds as far as I know. Also neptune aspects give a romantic and idealized perception about the other person right? And saturn aspects make the relationship lasting. That's true indeed. I want him out of my life very bad but it's like we are stuck together. We can't get away from each other. Circumstances bring us together all the time.
But you know I'm afraid so much of this relation. It has made me sooo unhappy and depressed that I began to take antidepressants. Before the pills I used to think about suicide a lot. Because I wanted to have him so much but couldn't. And the thought of life without him was just unbearable. I tried to talk to him about this weird emotions we have and the strange situation between us but he acted like he didn't understand what I was talking about. That was all I was able to get out of him. After this he's behaved like nothing has happened and our relationship is the same as it is before. Nothing has changed and doesn't seem like to change. The only thing that will end this thing is our going our separate ways. Until that happens I'm stuck unfortunately. I can't even talk to him. He doesn't allow me to. So that's what I'm doing now, trying to analyze this.
 

lostris

Active member
Thank you Astrologer50 for the links. I'm familiar with some of them. Skyviewzone and Cafeastrology are two of my favorites actually. I use them a lot. I use astro.com a lot too. I will check the others you sent. Can I ask something by the way? Does your message mean that I did something wrong or an inappropriate thing for the forum? I hope not. I wouldn't want to bother or offend anyone. If I did I'm sorry and would like to know what it is.
Thanks again.
 
Thank you Astrologer50 for the links. I'm familiar with some of them. Skyviewzone and Cafeastrology are two of my favorites actually. I use them a lot. I use astro.com a lot too. I will check the others you sent. Can I ask something by the way? Does your message mean that I did something wrong or an inappropriate thing for the forum? I hope not. I wouldn't want to bother or offend anyone. If I did I'm sorry and would like to know what it is.
Thanks again.
not at all, but I do prefer to SEE charts rather than data, as most of us here are visually orientated.

My way of helping newcomers is for them to do more research and learning rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events. If you are truly interested in astrology, I and most others here will help you…..

Having a Sagittarius MC which is the sign of the teacher and I do indeed teach astrology. This forum is a wonderful community of all mixed levels and types of astrologers. So I may provide links to encourage you in the hope that if you are sincerely interested enough you will do the research and enlighten yourself….
 

lostris

Active member
I am interested in astrology because I see it as a way to analyze the human soul that is so so complex. I've always been interested in human psychology and try to analyze people. I think astrology is a good helper for this. I truly believe astrological aspects explain what's going on with people and their characteristics very well. But my interest of course is focused on certain events and certain people in my life. Because those are the ones I think about mostly at the time. So these days I'm totally obsessed about this weird relation. I want to solve what it means for me and what I need to learn through this relation and this person. I believe in karma and reincarnation and need to solve the meaning of life-changing events for me and my soul. Astrology is a perfect tool for that. So these days I'm very interested in relational astrology. I even went to a professional astrologer but I saw that it is not enough. Because as you said I do not want easy answers falling on my lap and classical superficial explanations like "you have a venus-mars aspect so you are attracted to each other". I want to go deeper than that. When I look at the charts and the aspects I want to see what is going on there but not superficially. What I need is to get the picture with all the complexities of the persons involved, with all the meanings of aspects intertwined and with all the karmic relationships etc. I believe this kind of information can come from discussing these with people who know about astrology and who know astrological explanations are real since they experience them in their life. Anyway, that is I would like to have in this forum.
 

moonwillow

Well-known member
good post!
All my relationships have been plutonian, they are tough and yes,very transforming and the relationship itself becomes a perpetual rollercoaster.

I have just started learning astrology and have been doing alot of research on my own.
There are some really great threads about venus / pluto aspects and the like on various threads on this Community.

Lotris, You are in familar territory here, since there are alot of us who have gone thru these types of relationships and have used this community to connect and try to understand these venus / pluto / mars / neptune aspects in synastry and composite.

I have also posted some pretty good links, I could look them up again and repost.
I too have moon in capricorn and I am totally sympatico with how we try and control ourselves. I have cancer sun, so I do struggle with it alot, and sometimes, and I retaliate too.

I also have venus square pluto natally, based on everything I have read, it seems like we tend to attract these Pluto relationships and sometimes, it can cause great confusion and pain too.

MoonWillow
 

lostris

Active member
Of course I would very much like to post the charts Astrologer50. I would love to have your opinion and discuss these issues with you. Posting charts is no problem for me at all. I just thought it could be too much to ask. You know I wouldn't wanna bore you with all these charts. But yes I would love to. I will post them the first chance I get.

Moonwillow thank you very much for your explanations. Moon in capricorn is hell I tell you. Because you see the emotions as weaknesses and just try to get rid of them which is very difficult and an abnormal thing to do actually. What makes us human is our emotions right? But you know I used to say in my early twenties that I don't want to love anyone because when I lose them it will hurt. Such a ridicuolus notion but being the moon in capricorn I think it is expected of me :). And pluto aspects in natal chart just attracts difficult relationships I agree. I fell in love twice and both were very obsessive and intense. This last one is the craziest of the two actually and I don't know how to handle it. As you age you hope that you will know better but you don't :).
 

moonwillow

Well-known member
Lostris, I am with you on this. With my moon in capricorn, I have turned to intellectualizing everything, finding the logic and rationale in human behavior.

That way it tempers the emotions. Getting into the nitty gritty, Not loosing control. As you get older, you do become wiser, and hopefully you eventually learn to try and break these destructive cycles we sometimes put ourselves into.

I had a doosey last year into April of this year. Very plutonian - major conj. 0 deg between venus / pluto / mars / neptune / mercury - and it felt good to break away, albeit, I am always thinking about him. Yet another gift of venus/pluto aspect, there is an unforgettableness.

he is always on my mind, whether I want him there or not, although time helps / heals and tempers the emotions that come from thinking about him.

Now Neptune brings disillusionment, and when that one gets triggered by venus, especially in the conjunctions, based on research (cafeastrology) and experience, it adds to the bucket of misery.

I am no astrologer, but based on your synastry and composite you listed above, it is going to be one heck of a ride. Just talking from experience, and not in any way or form from expertise in astrology.

I am attaching the links on venus / pluto relationships / theme. Hope it helps to shed some light on your situation. Not that I am obsessive in anyway :),
but happy reading. The astrologyplace is a really good site by the way.

http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2011/03/venus-pluto-synastry.html

http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2011/02/pluto-relationships-being-in-love-and.html

http://realastrologers.com/081908-synastry-of-obsession

http://sasstrology.com/2007/05/pluto-problems-in-relationships.html

http://sasstrology.com/2011/06/venus-square-pluto-third-parties.html

I thought I would add this link for levity, just to know that those of us who have these hard aspects between venus and pluto, we are not alone, it affects even the best and brightest
http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2009/09/12/the-steamy-side-of-venus-pluto-aspects%e2%80%94a-photo-gallery/

http://therealastrology.com/ask-kevin/relationship-astrology/183-venus-pluto-synastry-aspects.html

http://astrofix.net/2010/09/03/venuspluto-aspects/

Take care Lostris and best wishes
MoonWillow
 

lostris

Active member
Thank you for the links and your insights about the issue MoonWillow. I will surely check them. You are so very right. Plutonian ones are just forcing you to face your emotions. Although I've alwyas known that I am someone whose feelings are intense, I was surprised to see all these emotions coming through when I fell for this person. I was surprised and scared of the intensity of my feelings. It was too much for me. I guess this is why pluto forces me to face them.
Thank you and best wishes to you too MoonWillow :). You take care too
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Lostris. I'm glad this thread has gathered momentum. It seems like you've been getting plenty of ideas and support. If you're happy to post your chart I'll wait until I've seen it before I post anything else. Thanks for making it interesting all round with all the honest and detailed feedback.
 

lostris

Active member
Thank you Miquar. I'm happy to get all these helpful replies and info from you all. Thank you all very much again. As I said it is so nice being able to talk to people who know about astrology and can understand what I'm talking about.
I am honest and open because I know that only by being open to each other we can make the right comments about these aspects. I would very much like that here in this forum with everyone so that we all can help each other.
So here are the charts. I attached them. The first is my natal chart. The second is his natal chart. The third one is the synastry chart (the outer one is his). The last one is the composite chart with midpoint method.
Thank you all very much again.
Hope to have fruitful discussions for everyone who read this thread.
Best wishes all :)
 
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lostris

Active member
I forgot to tell something very important. Sorry about that. I don't know his birth time. So as you know we can't take into account the house placements and aspects to his moon. Thanks a lot again :)
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi. I just looked at your natal chart. I would disregard some of those wide aspects like Moon Pluto, and Moon Mars, especially since you have so many close major aspects to go on.

Your strongest aspect to your Moon seems to be the square to Uranus, and Uranus is very strong in the chart as it rules the Sun and Mercury, and aspects Sun Moon and Mercury closely by major aspect. Your Sun and Mercury probably find Uranus' input perfectly ok, since they are in Aquarius, and the aspect is a trine. The trine falls across air houses as well as air signs, and with Sun also conjunct Mercury, your sense of who you are as a unique individual is very much tied up with the pristine realm of ideas and ideals, rather than all those messy and chaotic feelings!

Moon in Capricorn probably feels very unsettled by Uranus, because the aspect is a square and Capricorn's need for structure and definite rules (Moon also in 6th) will feel threatened by free-thinking, experimental Uranus. So your instincts are telling you to preserve the status quo and your destiny is to invent and revolutionise.

Saturn also aspects both Sun and Moon, though by wider aspects than those to Uranus. So there is a strong theme here in the sense that Saturn, Capricorn, Uranus and Aquarius share a valuing of neat systems of organisation - the detached and objective overview of the laws at work in life.

But feelings do not obey these laws and so they threaten the order more than Aquarius and Capricorn threaten each other.

And then there's the fire, including Venus in Aries in the 9th house making a T-square with Jupiter and Pluto. A Venus with a mission, which won't care too much for the caution of the Capricorn moon, but which may feed off the Aquarian inventiveness and rebelliousness. Uranus is still near a conjunction with the natal Venus, and so this very dramatic and passionate part of your chart seems to have been awakened through this relationship as a reflection, in part, of this transit.

With Mars on the midheaven, and this rather volatile Venus, there's a sense that your mother may have had a dutiful and responsible (and possibly strict) side, and also perhaps a (possibly more hidden much of the time) passionate and competitive side. All in all she may have been quite ambitious, whether this was lived out or not. She may have resented her burdens and responsibilities and also your youthful femininity. This is all tentative suggestion, but I wonder if you have begun to fight against the power she had over your Venus - if your identity as woman is coming out of hiding???

If this is so, you're bound to fight hard for what you value at the moment while you reclaim your power. However, the stuff I posted before about allowing emotional baggage to burn away still applies.

Don't know how much of this will resonate with you?
 

Caro

Well-known member
not sure if anyone has pointed this out.
transit of pluto sits on your 6th house cusp(equal house)
so influencing the day to day events in your life. (not sure what the house cusp would be placidus)

so maybe this transit is bringing this to surface now.(pluto natally in 3rd so influencing subtle changes to the way you communicate)

Also moon sq uranus - are your emotional needs being met by this job or even mentally? (moon natally in 6th house) is there something else you should be exploring in your day to day life? more study with merc in aquarius I would be surprised if you do not come across as very uranian - a bit eccentric. you will want an outlet for this too!

there is another post on this Im not suggesting that there are any issues with your mother (at all:innocent: )but I thought the post interesting for you to read.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19564

I think moon in cap is one of the most difficult moon placings even if well aspected it suggests to me an austere unemotional upbringing. (an emotionally unavailable father perhaps cruel and its impact on the mother - as one interpretation)

you have an interesting chart as I think you have a mystic rectangle and a grand trine (but is is not all in air some of the aspects are not appropriate)

hope thats useful
 
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