Are you familiar with the doctrine of signatures?
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/doctrineofsignatures.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/doctrineofsignatures.html
What planet as natural signifier of children?
- Thread starter Drsendero
- Start date
Nowadays you would call it vibration or resonance or frequency. It's basically Law of Attraction, like attracts like. If you understand that concept, you'll understand rulerships a lot better. Things of the same vibrational essence will be matched up together and in astrology terms will have the same ruler.
Just as an example, lets take Venus. Venus rules art, beauty, pleasure, peace, plenty and luxury, politeness, gracefulness - quite a lot of rather different things. But seen from a signature point of view, from a vibrational, energy point of view, it's in essence all the same, it's all connected to the central idea of harmony and balance.
That's essentially the challenge as a student of astrology, you have to grasp the central concept behind those rulerships. Once you've got it, it's a piece of cake. Then you don't even need a rulership book anymore. And in the classic books of astrology, you usually won't find long lists of rulerships anyway. They just give you a couple of central ideas because they know if you understand those, you can figure out the rest on your own.
Just as an example, lets take Venus. Venus rules art, beauty, pleasure, peace, plenty and luxury, politeness, gracefulness - quite a lot of rather different things. But seen from a signature point of view, from a vibrational, energy point of view, it's in essence all the same, it's all connected to the central idea of harmony and balance.
That's essentially the challenge as a student of astrology, you have to grasp the central concept behind those rulerships. Once you've got it, it's a piece of cake. Then you don't even need a rulership book anymore. And in the classic books of astrology, you usually won't find long lists of rulerships anyway. They just give you a couple of central ideas because they know if you understand those, you can figure out the rest on your own.
Dirius
Well-known member
This section works by basing arguments on ancient sources and the interpretations that may derive from them.
Its ok to question those sources from time to time (ancient astrologers contradict each other in almost every book), because many of the precepts are not entirely specific, but it is usually done so by basing the argument on the traditional framework, not the modern one.
Dirius
Well-known member
Whats rude, which in turn was the reason your posts got deleted, was your constant mention of outer planets. They are not recognised in this section.
I know it sounds very dictatorial, but this section works on astrology as studied up to Renaissance eras, before the discovery of the outer. The section is kept that way to discourage confrontations between moderns and traditionals about what is right, thus 2 sections exist.
I don't think anyone got offended by your statement about Jupiter. After all, this is what the section is for: to offer interpretations to traditional theorems.
Drop the outer mentions, and the discussion will be much more polite and smooth.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
keep in mind that
this is our traditional board
why then harp on non-Traditional and therefore irrelevant Modernist outer planets
Clearly
the deletion was because as you are well aware
this being the traditional forum
two modern outer planets and one dwarf planet are irrelevant
and on this board
traditionally, Jupiter and Saturn are outer planets
but
despite being corrected by the Moderator of this board
you insist
on deliberately
repeatedly mentioning two irrelevant modern outer planets and one dwarf planet
not only are you not reading the rules of this Traditional board
you are not reading responses to your comments either
that's obvious because
I already mentioned that
Vettius Valens in THE ANTHOLOGY
wrote that Saturn MAY describe children
and I quote:
'...Saturn signifies the fathership of the children of others....'
now if you wish to question Vettius Valens with illustrations using two modern outer planets
and one modern dwarf planet
then by all means open a thread for that discussion on the Modernist forum
but on this traditional board of our forum
as Dirius already reminded you several times
discussion is unsurprisingly within traditional framework methodology
tsmall
Premium Member
No, your first post was a discourse on all things that the planets symbolize in modern astrology, and THAT'S why it got deleted.
WE are. You are not.
No, the thread was posted in the traditional forum to ask for the traditional "natural significator" of children.
Are you seriously kidding me right now?
{deleted attacking comment~moderator}
Picking and choosing which quotes you reply to, without stretching yourself to read other quotes, or try to find common ground...continuing to argue with those who challenge you, attacking them without being able to articulate your position properly, bringing modern ideas to the wrong board, and then lashing out when you are gently corrected for doing so. That's a lot for a junior member. It's been my experience that if a new member is willing to troll a moderator that member is willing to troll everyone. Consider this a strong suggestion. Any further trolling and you WILL be banned without further warning.
{deleted attacking comment~moderator}
I get your point, some rulerships just don't make sense. I'd say the most clear cut are the meanings of the signs and the most convoluted are the meanings of the houses. The planets are somewhere in between. And if we would be on the vedic board, I'd just say Jupiter rules children because Jupiter is associated with the 5th house which rules children.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
one wonders which rulerships "just don't make sense"
and the reasons why
tsmall posted "the short answer" some time ago on this thread thatI'd say the most clear cut are the meanings of the signs
and the most convoluted are the meanings of the houses.
The planets are somewhere in between.
And if we would be on the vedic board,
I'd just say Jupiter rules children
because Jupiter is associated with the 5th house which rules children.
and on an even earlier post on this thread
Culpeper mentioned that
so Vedic board is in agreement with traditional on that
If you look at the quotes, you'll see that all authors work with Jupiter on the matter of children, but the only one who explicitly mentions Jupiter as the significator of children seems to be Al Biruni. And he's very close to the Hindu tradition. Manilius seems to be more concerned with Sun and Moon placements, Jupiter only seems to be an additional factor. So I think Jupiter as the significator of children is probably mainly a Hindu thing. In vedic astrology there are fixed and variable significators. The fixed significator for children would be Jupiter, the variable significator would be the PK, i.e. planet number 5 in terms of longitude. So in vedic astrology Jupiter is directly linked to children while in the west it's more an indirect link via Jupiter's triplicity lords and the lot of children. In either case, they all suggest to work with Jupiter somehow. Where I do see them work with Mercury is on the subject of number of children, especially twins.
Rex (The Rulership Book) lists the 5th, Sun, Leo and Venus (and Mercury) as rulers of children. Lehman (The Book of Rulerships) lists the 5th, 11th, Cancer and Jupiter as rulers of children.
Rex (The Rulership Book) lists the 5th, Sun, Leo and Venus (and Mercury) as rulers of children. Lehman (The Book of Rulerships) lists the 5th, 11th, Cancer and Jupiter as rulers of children.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Here it may be worth noting a point that David Pingree made
in his review of Goold’s translation of the Astronomica
which is that while Manilus’ work is partially meant to be instructional
“…its principle purpose
seems to have been to delight its audience with poetry
and to arouse admiration for the poet by its cleverness… (Pingree 1980, p. 263).”
In other words
Manilius may have been more interested in creating an impressive work of art
than he was in faithfully reporting the techniques of the astrological tradition
Even though Manilius is one of our earliest surviving sources
about the practice and techniques of Hellenistic astrology
in several areas the approach that he outlines is unusual
when compared with other astrologers from that period.
This has led to some debates over the reliability of Manilius
as a source for understanding the practice of Hellenistic astrology.
For example, virtually every astrologer from the 1st century through the 7th century
reports that Venus rejoices in the 5th place
and Saturn in the 12th
but Manilius is the only author who says that Venus rejoices in the 10th
and Saturn in the 4th (Astronomica, 2: 918-938).
It is not clear if Manilius is representing a variant tradition here
or if this variation in the joys was introduced by Manilius himself for unknown reasons
although we can say
that subsequent astrologers seemed to ignore Manilius version of the joys over the next few centuries.
Elsewhere it is notable that in the surviving manuscripts of the Astronomica
Manilius fails to address the significations of the planets.
While this might simply indicate that something is missing in the manuscripts
in some instances Manilius seems to go out of his way
to avoid invoking the planets in situations where they would otherwise normally be used
for example such as in the assignment of the planets to the decans
which he instead assigns to the signs of the zodiac (Astronomica, 4: 294-407).
Volk refers to this issue as the “puzzle of the planets,”
and suggests that Manilius may have purposely ignored the planets
for philosophical or religious reasons (Volk 2009, p. 48f). http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/astrologers/marcus-manilius/
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
5th century BCE
The oldest known Mesopotamian birth charts date to 410 BCE.
The concept of natal astrology or genethlialogy was developed by this time
1st century BCE
1st century CE
2nd century CE
By the way Claudius Ptolemy was not an astrologer
in contrast Vettius Valens was a practising astrologer
who left us with at least one hundred natal charts
Ptolemy provided not one natal chart at all in any of his works
Valens frequently draws on Nechepso and Petosiris
although he sometimes expresses frustration with their cryptic style.
He also draws heavily on Critodemus
who he expresses even greater contempt for at times
at one point saying that he is all show and no substance.
He mentions Thrasyllus once in book 9.
Ptolemy and Ancient Astronomy
Synopsis
Melvyn Bragg and his guests
discuss the ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy
and consider how and why his geocentric theory of the universe
held sway for so many centuries.
In his seminal astronomical work, the Almagest
written in the 2nd century AD
Ptolemy proposed that the Earth was at the centre of the universe...
Ptolemy's model of the universe remained the dominant one
for over a thousand years. It was not until 1543, and Copernicus's heliocentric theory of the world,
that the Ptolemaic model was finally challenged
and not until 1609 that Johannes Kepler's New Astronomy put an end to his ideas for good.
But how and why did Ptolemy's system survive for so long?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017528d
The oldest known Mesopotamian birth charts date to 410 BCE.
The concept of natal astrology or genethlialogy was developed by this time
1st century BCE
- The last Cuneiform and the first Greek birth charts appear around mid-1st century BCE.
- The foundational texts attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, Asclepius, and Nechepso and Petosiris are published in the 1st century BCE or slightly earlier. This is essentially the birth of Hellenistic astrology.
- Rome annexes Egypt and the Ptolemaic dynasty comes to an end with the death of Cleopatra in 30 BCE.
1st century CE
- Manilius writes his Astronomica sometime around the death of Augustus in 14 CE.
- Thrasyllus becomes the personal astrologer for the Emperor Tiberius prior to 2 CE, and subsequently writes an astrological manual titled Table sometime before his death in 36 CE.
- Thrasyllus’ son Balbillus takes over his father’s position in the Roman imperial court. He served the emperors Claudius, Nero and Vespasian.
- Antiochus of Athens wrote a book of definitions of astrological concepts, perhaps sometime around the 1st century CE.
- Critodemus wrote a work known as the Vision and another named Table likely sometime in the 1st century.
- Teucer of Babylon wrote a text that dealt with the planets, the signs, and co-rising stars, probably sometime in the 1st century.
- Dorotheus of Sidon wrote his five book instructional poem on astrology sometime around the last quarter of the 1st century. Book 5 is the earliest surviving treatment of electional or katarchic astrology.
2nd century CE
- Aubio wrote an instructional poem on astrology perhaps sometime around the late 1st or early 2nd century.
- Manetho wrote his Apotelesmatika sometime in the early 2nd century. He was born in May 80 CE.
- The Greek original of the Yavanajataka was written in Egypt in the early 2nd century.
- The original Greek text of the Yavanajataka was translated into Sanskrit in 149/150 by Yavaneśvara.
- Claudius Ptolemy wrote the Tetrabiblos sometime around the mid-2nd century, attempting to re-conceptualize astrology within the broader context of Aristotelian natural philosophy.
- Vettius Valens wrote the books which were later compiled as his Anthology and towards the middle of the 2nd century. He was born February 8, 120.
By the way Claudius Ptolemy was not an astrologer
in contrast Vettius Valens was a practising astrologer
who left us with at least one hundred natal charts
Ptolemy provided not one natal chart at all in any of his works
Valens frequently draws on Nechepso and Petosiris
although he sometimes expresses frustration with their cryptic style.
He also draws heavily on Critodemus
who he expresses even greater contempt for at times
at one point saying that he is all show and no substance.
He mentions Thrasyllus once in book 9.
Ptolemy and Ancient Astronomy
Synopsis
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss the ancient Greek astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy
and consider how and why his geocentric theory of the universe
held sway for so many centuries.
In his seminal astronomical work, the Almagest
written in the 2nd century AD
Ptolemy proposed that the Earth was at the centre of the universe...
Ptolemy's model of the universe remained the dominant one
for over a thousand years. It was not until 1543, and Copernicus's heliocentric theory of the world,
that the Ptolemaic model was finally challenged
and not until 1609 that Johannes Kepler's New Astronomy put an end to his ideas for good.
But how and why did Ptolemy's system survive for so long?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017528d
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
"Vettius Valens' Anthologiae is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects: the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients or associates
including his own, which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians” Mark T Riley
Clearly, Mark T Riley is of the opinion that
Valens is unique in being a practicing astrologer
whose work is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I re-read it continually
crucial difference between Ptolemy and Valens:
While Ptolemy 'compiled'
Ptolemy altered techniques according to personal prejudice/whim:
and Ptolemy, mathematician/astronomer and not a practicing astrologer
had a different rationale/perspective to that of Valens.
Ptolemy built on the work of Apollonius of Perga who
approximately four centuries earlier than Ptolemy
developed a form of geometric particular methods within the geometrical practice
that are to do with circular motion - as well as motions of circles moving on circles and so on
that Ptolemy then applied
to discovering the much sought-after geometrical rationale
thought to be underlying appearances
Thus Ptolemy described a rationale that 'explained' retrograde motion
- but incorrectly - because the planets do not move with uniform circular motion in circles
Ptolemy mathematically appealing idea of the universe, was incorrect
Valens perspective being that of a practicing astrologer
meant that Valens was eager to preserve everything he possibly could intact
for the benefit of future astrologers.
Valens simply compiled without altering what he compiled.
Certainly Valens commented on the various astrological techniques
but crucially, did not alter any.
That fact taken in tandem with Valen's work being
'the longest extant astrological work from antiquity'
understandably obviously makes Valens an important figure.
Crucially, Valens utilised not only his own horoscope
but also those of more than a 100 authentic horoscopes of his own clients.
in contrast
Ptolemy doesn't talk very much about people of his own time
instead he talks about observations made centuries earlier by Hipparchus, another great astronomer
- Observations used by Ptolemy are largely Babylonian via Hipparchus
And it was Hipparchus who, a century after Apollonius
began applying the Apollonian geometry
in the first attempt to describe the movements of the heavenly spheres geometrically.
Hipparchus took the first steps
in attempting to make the Apollonian geometry fit the appearances of the heavens
- particularly in relation to the moon and the sun
- by developing those moving circles as a technique for dealing with the confusing appearances of the heavens
Ptolemy then expanded on the original ideas of both his predecessors, Apollonius and Hipparchus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Perga
Albert Timashev while writing an article entitled
"Reconstruction of The Major Egyptian Years"
has this to say of Ptolemy:
"Today it is well known that Greek scientist Claudius Ptolemy
was not a representative of a traditional Greek astrological school
and most likely, he was never a practicing astrologer at all.
Ptolemy's work Tetrabiblos reflects his personal and sometimes disputable opinions on many questions." http://www.astrologer.ru/article/mey.html.en
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
dr. farr has studied and practiced astrology for more than fifty years
has a vast knowledge of astrological history
and posted the following comprehensive summary on a similar discussion
It is my PERSONAL ("private") belief (relative to the historical situation in the West) that Ptolemy intended to reform the then existing astrology along Aristotelian "rationalist" (and literalist) lines, and to expunge anything that couldn't be "explained" by (what Ptolemy and others believed to be) Aristotelian "science"; Ptolemy's position eventually triumphed (by the time of the Arabic astrological transition) and dominated medieval European astrological thought.
Petosiris says: “Whenever Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury are not afflicted, they are indicative of fine offspring. When the opposite is true, they cause lamenting and the deaths of children. If the stars that are in aspect with the Givers of Children are in bicorporeal signs, or if <the Givers> themselves are in bicorporeal signs, the number is doubled. Feminine stars in aspect with the Childgiver grant female children; male stars grant male children.” - Valens 2.39, trans. by Riley
''As the topic of children follows upon that of marriage, we shall have to observe the planets that are in the mid‑heaven or in aspect with it or with its succedent...'' - Ptolemy
The fourth house gives signs of the parents, because the X place gives signs of children (the I is the IV from the X and the I is the X from the IV). Also the X place concerns the middle of life and so the XI would also give some significations according to Ptolemy (somewhat following Petosiris according to Hephaistio). Hermes also had children assigned to the X place.
According to the majority of Hellenistic astrologers, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury are indicative of abundance of offspring and brothers (see Valens 2.40), but it has to confirmed by the places of children (X, XI, V, IV or a Lot/Place of Children) and brothers (I, III or a Lot/Place of Brothers).
''As the topic of children follows upon that of marriage, we shall have to observe the planets that are in the mid‑heaven or in aspect with it or with its succedent...'' - Ptolemy
The fourth house gives signs of the parents, because the X place gives signs of children (the I is the IV from the X and the I is the X from the IV). Also the X place concerns the middle of life and so the XI would also give some significations according to Ptolemy (somewhat following Petosiris according to Hephaistio). Hermes also had children assigned to the X place.
According to the majority of Hellenistic astrologers, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury are indicative of abundance of offspring and brothers (see Valens 2.40), but it has to confirmed by the places of children (X, XI, V, IV or a Lot/Place of Children) and brothers (I, III or a Lot/Place of Brothers).