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  #26  
Unread 02-23-2016, 12:33 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

For instance, read how many people do not find their appearance fitting with their rising (tropical).

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...=25131&page=29

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  #27  
Unread 02-23-2016, 01:34 AM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Our experience with Tropicalism is so different! In my case (in California, if that matters?) everyone I've met (when the subject came up) identified him or herself with the Sun-sign Tropically. Exception: A Sun in Virgo, who insisted that due to caesarian section, her natural birth would have been Sun in Libra (not Leo). I'm not great a guessing a person's Sun-sign, but have never been wrong about Tropical Scorpio rising: It's in the eyes and eyebrows. But Vedic is amazing when it comes to character traits. I have Moon in mid-Tropical Aquarius. I read the Vedic description of Moon in Aqua. and it fit me extremely well--couldn't have said it better myself. I thought, no way I have Moon in Capricorn based on the Vedic description of that placement. To my surprise, it's not as simple as just moving back about 24, which would have put it in Capricorn. Vedic uses the Moon for its Zodiacal setting, and my Vedic Moon position is also solidly in Aquarius!
It's really not necessary to knock Tropical Astrology, which works so well for so many.
Just demonstrate the accuracy of the method that works best for you, and you can think of these as parallel matrices, each with its own viewing-angle. Allies, not antagonists.

Last edited by david starling; 02-23-2016 at 02:24 AM.
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  #28  
Unread 02-23-2016, 07:15 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Vedic is awesome! Keep up the good work! Interesting handle, duenderoja--what language is it from (if you don't mind me asking)?

Muchacho, a compass won't work at the Poles, but is still a useful navigational instrument. Anyone from Down Under care to comment on whether Tropical Astrology's Northern Hemispheric seasonal metaphor (Aries as the 1st Sign of Spring) appears to work for the Southern Hemisphere as well?
It's not really a Seasonal "argument"; it's a metaphor which might actually apply worldwide, and that would explain why it was discovered where the "correct" seasonal order was perfectly apparent (correct for Tropical Astrology worldwide). There are trees that can be grown in some climates and not others, but their fruit can be enjoyed everywhere, for a simile.
Keep in mind that astrology, like the movements of the planets, is based on geometry and certain universal principles that rule the entire macro and micro cosmos (as above so below). And so it may be an error to solely argue from a geocentrical position based on how things appear from here. There's a much bigger picture.
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  #29  
Unread 02-23-2016, 08:31 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I look at Astrology as a 'symbolic language.' We look at charts depicting the sky and we speak about them symbolically. I happen to speak 'Tropical' and others speak "Sidereal.' Some Astrologers, like Red Fairie, speak a combination of the two.
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  #30  
Unread 02-23-2016, 09:12 AM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duenderoja View Post
For instance, read how many people do not find their appearance fitting with their rising (tropical).

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...=25131&page=29
Does Vedic put as much emphasis on the Asc. as Tropical? In general, how do you identify someone's Chart as being of a single Sign. You're a ________. Sun, Moon, Rising, or maybe even a Planet? Or do you use a sort of "resolution of forces" that distills the Chart, making one Sign most prominent?
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  #31  
Unread 02-23-2016, 11:35 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Yes Vedic finds the rising important. There are physical descriptions as well. Planets in the ascendant modify the appearance. (The Ascendant: The 108 Planets of Vedic Astrology https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970963637/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_DunZwbMZ81T4F)

I know this same principle applies in the tropical zodiac, but I just found it amazing how many people did not agree with their appearance as described in that thread.

Vedic does not label people according to a single sign because there are 9 planets. If anything, they label by the moon, because it is the fastest moving body.

I still speak tropical - I am a Virgo rising, Scorpio Sun and Capricorn moon.

A long time ago I was a Sagittarius. But I was a reluctant one, because I find very little in common with Sagittarius. I accepted it though because that is what everyone said I was. I am a little bit wise, and I am philosophical, but that is where it ended. Tropical also told me that I was a Libra rising. I am not very Nice to people's emotions, I tend to be extremely judgmental, I am pretty attractive. But I accepted it.

But someone in the summer of 2014, interpreted my chart in Vedic. You cannot believe how easily I understood myself as a Virgo ascendant. I saw so much commonality being a Scorpio Sun and Capricorn moon, and a fiery Mars Sagittarius. My Mars was not an exalted Mars. Everything made a lot more sense.

I am an extremely introspective individual. Everyone in this world is not the way I am. So it is easier for them to fit themselves into the mold they have been pointed to.

I know that this is not the topic, but it is when I rejected the tropical. I still use a lot of the information I learned under western astrology, so I am a western astrologer who uses a different zodiac. I only use whole sign houses because the wonky house cusps annoyed me. The old astrologers saw fit to use whole sign houses so why cannot I?

Disclaimer: I do not say these things to offend. I apologize if someone takes offense. I am only expressing my own experience. I am only explaining my thought processes. Please see it as just that.

Last edited by duenderoja; 02-23-2016 at 08:55 PM.
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  #32  
Unread 02-23-2016, 05:08 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

I had a similar experience with the Houses. Plac. and Reg., the only House methods I knew about, simply did not work in my case. So, not knowing there was such a thing as Whole-sign Houses, and not having yet realized it's not "one prescription fits all" (using the lens analogy), I not only stopped including Houses in a Chart, I thought anyone else using them was wrong to do so. Learned about Whole-signs when I joined the Community, saw clearly how well they worked for me, and also saw how well Placidian was working for others. Sort of like needing glasses to improve your vision. You try looking through someone else's glasses (which are perfect for that person's vision), it's all blurry for you, and you hand them back and say "if you think you're seeing things clearly with these, you're just fooling yourself!" Tropical is so clearly my "correct prescription", I never doubted that was the same situation for everyone. But, I need Whole-signs to go along with it, and I'm playing catch-up with House interpretation, having previously rejected the standard House methods. Some can use "bifocal" or even "trifocal" Astrology, or even a blend of several, such as Heliocentric. Like being multilingual.
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  #33  
Unread 02-23-2016, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I had a similar experience with the Houses. Plac. and Reg., the only House methods I knew about, simply did not work in my case. So, not knowing there was such a thing as Whole-sign Houses, and not having yet realized it's not "one prescription fits all" (using the lens analogy), I not only stopped including Houses in a Chart, I thought anyone else using them was wrong to do so. Learned about Whole-signs when I joined the Community, saw clearly how well they worked for me, and also saw how well Placidian was working for others. Sort of like needing glasses to improve your vision. You try looking through someone else's glasses (which are perfect for that person's vision), it's all blurry for you, and you hand them back and say "if you think you're seeing things clearly with these, you're just fooling yourself!" Tropical is so clearly my "correct prescription", I never doubted that was the same situation for everyone. But, I need Whole-signs to go along with it, and I'm playing catch-up with House interpretation, having previously rejected the standard House methods. Some can use "bifocal" or even "trifocal" Astrology, or even a blend of several, such as Heliocentric. Like being multilingual.
Great analogy!

I must admit, I am excited to be a part of the conversation!

Last edited by duenderoja; 02-23-2016 at 06:01 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 02-24-2016, 02:50 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

For me both zodiacs are a reality and is working. I am not sure why is that ? But having experimented whith both systems for many years I tend to Think that Sideal zodiac is a bit more soul oriented, even though it works excellently for mundane matters too. For example the wealth yogas of vedic astrology involving 2nd house 11nd House for example is so often working greatly as anyone would see investigation wealthy people an millionaires et.c. As for physical characteristics I must say that the tropical zodiac is doing very well. And the sun sign characteristics working quite well also. My wife as a Taurus tropically is just such a shopaholic. As is my sister, also a tropical Taurus et.c.

Whole sign houses work best in the sidereal system I think. There is often slightly difference in houseplacements in whole sign charts casted in sidereal and Tropical zodiac.

But that's just my own personal feeling of course.
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  #35  
Unread 02-28-2016, 01:24 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duenderoja View Post
Yes Vedic finds the rising important. There are physical descriptions as well. Planets in the ascendant modify the appearance. (The Ascendant: The 108 Planets of Vedic Astrology https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970963637..._DunZwbMZ81T4F)

I know this same principle applies in the tropical zodiac, but I just found it amazing how many people did not agree with their appearance as described in that thread.

Vedic does not label people according to a single sign because there are 9 planets. If anything, they label by the moon, because it is the fastest moving body.

I still speak tropical - I am a Virgo rising, Scorpio Sun and Capricorn moon.

A long time ago I was a Sagittarius. But I was a reluctant one, because I find very little in common with Sagittarius. I accepted it though because that is what everyone said I was. I am a little bit wise, and I am philosophical, but that is where it ended. Tropical also told me that I was a Libra rising. I am not very Nice to people's emotions, I tend to be extremely judgmental, I am pretty attractive. But I accepted it.

But someone in the summer of 2014, interpreted my chart in Vedic. You cannot believe how easily I understood myself as a Virgo ascendant. I saw so much commonality being a Scorpio Sun and Capricorn moon, and a fiery Mars Sagittarius. My Mars was not an exalted Mars. Everything made a lot more sense.

I am an extremely introspective individual. Everyone in this world is not the way I am. So it is easier for them to fit themselves into the mold they have been pointed to.

I know that this is not the topic, but it is when I rejected the tropical. I still use a lot of the information I learned under western astrology, so I am a western astrologer who uses a different zodiac. I only use whole sign houses because the wonky house cusps annoyed me. The old astrologers saw fit to use whole sign houses so why cannot I?

Disclaimer: I do not say these things to offend. I apologize if someone takes offense. I am only expressing my own experience. I am only explaining my thought processes. Please see it as just that.
Yes, in vedic astrology, ASC is the most important, then Moon, then Sun. Also, the Moon can be used as ASC and you can look at the chart from there to get additional information about your psyche.
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  #36  
Unread 02-29-2016, 09:05 AM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
when it is the aspects that are telling the truth the most.
This sentence is to me a golden truth in astrology.

Sometimes I kind of dismiss the signs and zodiacs because in astrology, the planets do have their own symbolism. I've often wondered if I can possibly dismiss the zodiacs altogether and only count on the planetary symbolism.

F.ex. a person with a Moon in Libra, but then a Moon-Mars partile aspect will not find that Moon in Libra fits her personality. She will find the Moon-Mars aspect and planetary symbolism fits her a lot better. She might even think that Aries Moon description fits her better. You could say the same for Moon in Capricorn with a partile aspect to Neptune. This Moon will not find the Capricorn description very fitting, as the Moon will be strongly affected by Neptune, possibly giving us a musician or film maker and possibly a drug addict.

A person with Sun in Sagittarius and then a partile Sun-Saturn aspect will not find the Sun sign description fitting - but when reading the aspect, she will go "AHA - that's it".

For myself I am ok with just ignoring the signs most of the time. I don't care much about the description of a Leo vs. Cancer Sun in my own case - I care more about the Sun-Uranus aspect and the planets/aspects on angles that are more descriptive. In my case I have Moon in Aries sidereal and in Taurus tropical. I find the sidereal description fit a lot better and it also describes my appearance in my view. But then again my Moon has a tight aspect to both Mercury and Mars. IF Moon would be aspected to Venus, I would possibly find Taurus description more accurate. But you can find the truths in the tight aspects - aspects within 3-5 degr ...but the partile ones are strongest.

Last edited by Arena; 02-29-2016 at 09:09 AM.
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  #37  
Unread 02-29-2016, 10:17 AM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Our experience with Tropicalism is so different!
In my case
(in California, if that matters?)
everyone I've met
(when the subject came up)
identified him or herself with the Sun-sign Tropically.
It is possible that everyone you have met thus far in California
has their sun in the same sign BOTH Tropically AND sidereally

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Exception:
A Sun in Virgo,
who insisted that
due to caesarian section,
her natural birth would have been Sun in Libra
(not Leo)
.
So she was a Virgo Sun by caesarian section
however, she shall never know for certain the Sign of what could have been her natural birth
simply because her natural birth never happened and never shall
because she was born by Caesarian.

If she thinks her natural birth would have been Sun in Libra
then clearly she was born by Caesarian towards the end of Tropical Virgo
and in that case, even if her natural birth could have occurred in Libra
she would have been Sidereal Virgo

Leo would not have been a factor in either case
in this case

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

I'm not great a
guessing a person's Sun-sign,
but have never been wrong about Tropical Scorpio rising:
It's in the eyes and eyebrows.
Depends on how many Tropical Scorpios you have "never been wrong about"
for statistical purposes a sample of at least two hundred and fifty is required
Many of those Scorpios had their rising at a degree of Scorpio
that was the same Scorpio degree sidereally as well as tropically
Mars is Scorpios ruler and influences the appearance of Scorpio rising

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

But Vedic is amazing when it comes to character traits.
I have Moon in mid-Tropical Aquarius.
I read the Vedic description of Moon in Aqua. and it fit me extremely well--couldn't have said it better myself.

I thought, no way I have Moon in Capricorn based on the Vedic description of that placement.
To my surprise, it's not as simple as just moving back about 24, which would have put it in Capricorn.
Vedic uses the Moon for its Zodiacal setting, and my Vedic Moon position is also solidly in Aquarius!
Capricorn and Aquarius are both ruled by Saturn
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

It's really not necessary to knock Tropical Astrology, which works so well for so many.
And does not work at all for so many as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Just demonstrate the accuracy of the method that works best for you,
and you can think of these as parallel matrices,
each with its own viewing-angle.
Allies, not antagonists.

keep in mind that on an online forum such as ours
which allows anyone from beginner with a few hours intro to astrology
to post their opinion as "gospel"
as well as more seasoned astrologers to make their comments
that therefore
there is no continuity

a course from some respected professional is recommended
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  #38  
Unread 02-29-2016, 11:40 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
For myself I am ok with just ignoring the signs most of the time. I don't care much about the description of a Leo vs. Cancer Sun in my own case - I care more about the Sun-Uranus aspect and the planets/aspects on angles that are more descriptive. In my case I have Moon in Aries sidereal and in Taurus tropical. I find the sidereal description fit a lot better and it also describes my appearance in my view. But then again my Moon has a tight aspect to both Mercury and Mars. IF Moon would be aspected to Venus, I would possibly find Taurus description more accurate. But you can find the truths in the tight aspects - aspects within 3-5 degr ...but the partile ones are strongest.
If you ignore sign and house of the planets then you also ignore their strength and relevance, and so you can't possibly read those aspects correctly.
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  #39  
Unread 02-29-2016, 04:16 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Well muchacho, that is simply not right.

Their strength and relevance are measured by how closely they are to the angles and how tightly aspected they are.

You don't need houses nor signs. You do however need planets and angles.
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  #40  
Unread 02-29-2016, 04:43 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Arena, I have a question about the Lunar nodes, more imaginatively "Dragon's Head and Tail": Standard Tropical attitudes vary, but one view is that the DH is Benific, and DT is Malefic; and in Vedic tradition, the standard view is that both are Malefic. As a Western Siderealist, what's your understanding of them, in terms of the Angle they make to the Ascendant? (I have them squaring my Asc., and DT conj. Midheaven.)
Or, does a Planet need to be involved for that to matter? Thanks!
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  #41  
Unread 02-29-2016, 05:12 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Arena, I have a question about the Lunar nodes, more imaginatively "Dragon's Head and Tail": Standard Tropical attitudes vary, but one view is that the DH is Benific, and DT is Malefic; and in Vedic tradition, the standard view is that both are Malefic. As a Western Siderealist, what's your understanding of them, in terms of the Angle they make to the Ascendant? (I have them squaring my Asc., and DT conj. Midheaven.)
Or, does a Planet need to be involved for that to matter? Thanks!
The nodes are actually just a kind of a midpoint. As such it is important, but in my view I have not yet seen any proof of them being malefic.
Would you say that this position of DT has had malefic effect on your MC (work and your position in the world)?
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  #42  
Unread 02-29-2016, 07:51 PM
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Smile Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
The nodes are actually just a kind of a midpoint. As such it is important, but in my view I have not yet seen any proof of them being malefic.
Would you say that this position of DT has had malefic effect on your MC (work and your position in the world)?
Not sure. From my view, the entire natal Chart does, although I try to make the best of it. There are some who place tremendous importance on the Nodes, including "where you're coming from(tail) and where you're going (head)" but I haven't researched it much myself. They're said to "sensitize" the Sign they're in, but I have no Natal planets in that Sign. If there's not one already, I may start a Thread on the topic.
I see no logical reason for them to be considered Malefic, unless it's about eclipses being bad omens. This may be one area that avoids the "what's my Sign" argument. But, probably not!

Last edited by david starling; 02-29-2016 at 07:56 PM.
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  #43  
Unread 03-01-2016, 01:43 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
Well muchacho, that is simply not right.

Their strength and relevance are measured by how closely they are to the angles and how tightly aspected they are.

You don't need houses nor signs. You do however need planets and angles.
What astrological school teaches that?
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  #44  
Unread 03-01-2016, 01:44 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
The nodes are actually just a kind of a midpoint. As such it is important, but in my view I have not yet seen any proof of them being malefic.
Would you say that this position of DT has had malefic effect on your MC (work and your position in the world)?
What I have noticed about the nodes is that the North Node has Pluto qualities and the South Node has Neptune qualities.
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  #45  
Unread 04-09-2016, 07:32 PM
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
...I've often wondered if I can possibly dismiss the zodiacs altogether and only count on the planetary symbolism.
Certainly the aspects seem more important than the signs, Tropical or Sidereal (or Southern Hemisphere Reversed Tropical for that matter). But personally I find Tropical works a bit better for Mundane events. I was watching a couple of YouTube videos by Vedic astrologer Joni Patry recently, and although her insights related to the Nodes -Rahu, and Mars-Saturn seemed very accurate, the sign placements seemed a bit off, in my opinion.

For example, for 2016, she predicted some dire scenarios, including violence, based on Mars and Saturn in Sidereal Scorpio, (Tropical Sagittarius). But to me, it was when these planets were in Tropical Scorpio that we saw the most gruesome world violence - remember in 2013 and 2014 when ISIS was beheading people in what seemed like weekly executions on our TVs and internet? At that time, Mars and Saturn were actually in Sidereal Libra, which didn't seem to fit at all.

Patry also relates world events to Jupiter and Rahu (Moon's North Node) in Sidereal Leo, where they are of course in Tropical Virgo. To me, this completely misses out on the huge changes we are seeing in medicine. Because of these planets/points opposition to Neptune and Chiron in Tropical Pisces, we are seeing a huge movement towards Holistic medicine and (rightly or wrongly) medical and recreational use of cannabis in the US and Europe.
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  #46  
Unread 11-09-2018, 05:41 AM
Bjorkstrand Bjorkstrand is offline
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Re: Why Tropical "versus" Sidereal?

i am not a scorpio
a scorpio would not type in the aquarian gospel of jesus the christ, only a sag would do it.
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