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Unread 03-26-2014, 09:19 PM
Katie Katie is offline
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Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.

That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.

Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.

Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

astro_2gw_01_kate.74408.3559.jpg

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Unread 03-27-2014, 02:47 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
Hello all,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity.

Welcome to the forum, Katie.

Yes, Saturn has no dignity by term using Egyptian terms as most traditional astrologers have chosen to do. Either way, he is dignified by face or decan. So not completely without dignity. You left out cadent.

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The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus.
That aspect is separating. Venus is separating from Saturn at the same time that Saturn, via retrograde motion, is separating from her. This implies an active disregard on their part of a previously established connection. They can still see each other (regard) but they are not seeking to connect.

In your chart, the only planet that is seeking to connect with Saturn is Jupiter, also retrograde.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)
Saturn rules the 3rd, but he also rules the 4th sign. I am super curious about your relationship with your family, especially siblings and father. Well, you already mentioned your father, and you did say

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Originally Posted by Katie View Post
The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.
This is Saturn’s effect in your natal chart. As the ruler of your 3rd and 4th sign (even though not the 4th house) Saturn is completely incompetent. He is partially assisted because he is regarded by benefics ( Moon from Taurus, Venus from Libra and Jupiter from Aries, but Jupiter is in Saturn’s fall and not inclined to be much help for all that he’s chasing Saturn.)



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With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire
This is a general perception but as you have already learned/demonstrated not an accurate one. Mainly because it is easy to forget that transiting Saturn and natal Saturn are not the same planet. Out of sect Saturn in Leo, retrograde, cadent, in feminine quadrant and bright degree is not the same as In Sect transiting Saturn in Capricorn in pitted degree. That is just an example, but I hope you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Katie View Post
.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.
Is it possible to have a transit that doesn’t do anything? Yes, if Saturn isn’t activated in your chart by profection and/or solar return. How else would it be possible that a Saturn transit to your DSC resulted in something good? If it should be in the 4th sign, which is Aquarius, and which is Saturn’s preferred domicile. As to the Moon? It is going to be really hard for Saturn to harm the Moon in Taurus. Further, we can’t really comment on transits without knowing the rest of what was going on at the time. This is the biggest reason that traditionally transits are like the very last consideration in predicting events in a native’s life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.
When you looked at these squares and tied them to your life events, did you consider whether Saturn was making an inferior or superior square? How about reception? Did the squares perfect, and what were the other planets doing at the time?




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Originally Posted by Katie View Post
The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.
Ok. But you said


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Originally Posted by Katie View Post
The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed
Are you sure? Because it does sound like the dreaded Saturn return had Quite an effect on you. You do have natal Saturn in Leo, right? Just because you made it through the actual moment the transit was exact doesn’t mean the repercussions of it weren’t going to show up. As to losing out to people who were “more fun” where is Venus in your chart? Libra, right? and in the 11th house/12th sign? So Venus is the ruler of your 11th house, which also happens to be Saturn’s exaltation. Saturn is debilitated and cadent, and didn’t we already talk about how Venus is disregarding him? Are you seeing some sort of a thing here? Especially since the 11th house ruler is in the 12th sign of self-undoing? (And other stuff.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.
Why? Because you are skipping a couple of steps in traditional methods to understand if transits are going to even have an “effect," amd of so what that effect will be.
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Last edited by tsmall; 03-27-2014 at 02:52 AM.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 03:40 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Some quick observations:
-natal Saturn is modified by being in a bright degree (mentioned by TSMall)
-natal Saturn is in the sign-monomoiria of Libra, so natal Saturn is in exaltation by monomoiria
-natal Saturn is the most elevated planet in the chart
-natal Saturn is in its Face (mentioned by TSMall)
-natal Saturn is not afflicted by any square or opposition aspect from either Mars or from the benefics
-natal Saturn is conjunct the benefic star Talitha, which in turn channels in the influences of the Ursa Major (Great Bear or "Big Dipper") constellation, a most potent influence

I believe (ie, I would delineate) Saturn is not in net detriment in the natal chart, because the factors listed above would outweight (for me) the detriments of sign placement and sect (and occidentality)

(Just an additional note, although relating to a traditional but non-Western astrological doctrine: from the traditional Vedic perspective, Saturn retrograde would be considered = to exaltation, Saturn in a "kendra", ie, angular house-in this case the 10th whole sign house-Saturn would be considered transformed into a functional benefic, and, regarding sect, Vedic astrology considers Saturn a nocturnal planet, so it would also be considered in Vedic to be in sect)
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Unread 03-27-2014, 03:45 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Some quick observations:
-natal Saturn is modified by being in a bright degree (mentioned by TSMall)
-natal Saturn is in the sign-monomoiria of Libra, so natal Saturn is in exaltation by monomoiria
-natal Saturn is the most elevated planet in the chart
-natal Saturn is in its Face (mentioned by TSMall)
-natal Saturn is not afflicted by any square or opposition aspect from either Mars or from the benefics
-natal Saturn is conjunct the benefic star Talitha, which in turn channels in the influences of the Ursa Major (Great Bear or "Big Dipper") constellation, a most potent influence

I believe (ie, I would delineate) Saturn is not in net detriment in the natal chart, because the factors listed above would outweight (for me) the detriments of sign placement and sect (and occidentality)

(Just an additional note, although relating to a traditional but non-Western astrological doctrine: from the traditional Vedic perspective, Saturn retrograde would be considered = to exaltation, Saturn in a "kendra", ie, angular house-in this case the 10th whole sign house-Saturn would be considered transformed into a functional benefic, and, regarding sect, Vedic astrology considers Saturn a nocturnal planet, so it would also be considered in Vedic to be in sect)
please provide references for what you have mentioned here. to my knowledge none of the above outweighs anything in the chart, and we do great damage by talking uncommon technique without citing references. can we get some solid notes from traditional sources?
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Last edited by wca; 03-27-2014 at 04:38 AM.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 04:16 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Sign monomoiria: eg Ibn Ezra
Bright degrees: eg Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra
Elevated planets: Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Paracelsus, etc
Face: authors from Valens, onward
Stars: Thabit ibn Qurra

Books:
-Ibn Ezra: "Beginning of Wisdom"; "Book of Reason"; "Book of Nativities & Revolutions"
-al-Biruni: "Book of Instructions in the Elements of the Art of Astrology"; "Travels in India" (translation of "Critical Study of What India Says"
-Paracelsus: "Works" (collected works)
-Abu Mashar: "Great Introduction"; "The Thousands of Abu Mashar" (Pingree)
-Thabit ibn Qurra: "Ghayat el Kawkeb"
-Valens: "Anthology"

...to mention a few sources which immediately come to mind; the latest of these authors/books, is Paracelsus, circa 15th century...

(Vedic addenda: Parasara, "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra"; Varahamihara "Brihat Jataka")
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Unread 03-27-2014, 04:28 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Sign monomoiria: eg Ibn Ezra
Bright degrees: eg Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra
Elevated planets: Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Paracelsus, etc
Face: authors from Valens, onward
Stars: Thabit ibn Qurra

Books:
-Ibn Ezra: "Beginning of Wisdom"; "Book of Reason"; "Book of Nativities & Revolutions"
-al-Biruni: "Book of Instructions in the Elements of the Art of Astrology"; "Travels in India" (translation of "Critical Study of What India Says"
-Paracelsus: "Works" (collected works)
-Abu Mashar: "Great Introduction"; "The Thousands of Abu Mashar" (Pingree)
-Thabit ibn Qurra: "Ghayat el Kawkeb"
-Valens: "Anthology"

...to mention a few sources which immediately come to mind; the latest of these authors/books, is Paracelsus, circa 15th century...

(Vedic addenda: Parasara, "Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra"; Varahamihara "Brihat Jataka")
I'd like to re-phrase. you quoted authors and books that used the same words. I would like to see evidence of traditional authorities using these techniques the same way you are. can you source aphorisms, charts, paragraphs? page numbers, please.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 04:31 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I'll collect that data over the next few days and post it here.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 04:35 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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I'll collect that data over the next few days and post it here.
great! would love to review it so I can get a sense of how you're applying all the above. will look forward to your post.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 04:59 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

On thing I can mention: regarding such things as Face and Bright Degrees (also Dark Degrees, Pitted and Elevated degrees), the authors that described them (Antiochus of Athens, Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra) spoke of them as modifying the condition of any planets posited in them: Face, of course, is an essential dignity, but the others were considered accidental, either dignity or detriment: so, a planet in Face and Bright Degree, would pick up 2 "dignities" (one essential, one accidental) in coming to a consideration of its "net" state (of dignity or detriment) Monomoira (degree rulerships), referred to by Ibn Ezra, go back more to the Hellenist period (eg Antiochus of Athens)-during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, mostly planetary monomoiria were used (in the reference chart natal Saturn is in the 3rd planetary monomoiria of Leo, which = the monomoiria of Mercury): however, Ibn Ezra also refers to the sign monomoiria (in the "Beginning of Wisdom", which reference is briefly footnoted by Robert Hand): for the use of sign monomoiria we have to refer back to the 4th century author Maximus, and-during the Islamic transitional era-to Harranian author Thabit ibn Qurra, who offers a paragraph in his "Gayat el Kawkeb" ("Way of the Planets") to the effect that these sign monomoiria are additional modifiers of the dignity/debility status of planets posited in them (as were bright/dark, pitted/elevated degrees and planetary monomoiria) I do not find any of the authors (listed above) who speak about essential vs accidental dignity/debility, specifically mentioning monomoiria as being either essential or accidental dignity/debility, and they were never mentioned (that I am aware of) among the 5 "classes" of essentials as given in the classical literature (face, term, triplicity, sign, exaltation)-so, I have considered monomoiria (both planetary and sign monomoiria) with the accidentals (same consideration I have for yet another sign subdivision mentioned in Manilius, Valens, Maternus, Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Thabit ibn Qurra, Ibn Ezra, ie, duodenaries: sign 1/12ths) However, since I don't use a numerically based weighing protocol for essential vs accidental dignity/debility, for me whether the testimony for detriment or dignity arises from essential or accidental sources, really makes no difference in my delineation of the totality of testimonies regarding a particular planet in a particular chart.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 07:43 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

You are absolutely correct in the fact that your Saturn is heavily debilitated. However, everyone here has missed the obvious, very easy to spot thing, and that is the saving grace of Jupiter. Your Jupiter is aspecting the houses that are influenced by Saturn - 9th house where Saturn lies, is 5th house from Jupiter so Jupiter aspects that house and protects it. So for example when you had problems with school, Jupiter came in just in time and saved you from having rest of your life problems because you would not have finished your last term exams...but you just did! That is shown by Jupiters saving grace.

Jupiter also aspects 1st house from its 9th aspect, bringing optimism into your personality and ability to turn abilities into knowledge and wisdom and make yourself opportunities. Saturn rules your 3rd house, which can definitely show that you were probably overly structured and overly perfectionistic in early school, like primary school. It might have been that you were quite serious when you were this age and it might be that the time was quite tough on you.

So overall Saturn does not have a lot of play room in your chart really, cause everywhere it tries to do damage, Jupiter comes in an protects and diminishes its effects. Saturn can roam a bit and make some parts of your life difficult at times, but you will always be saved by Jupiter. It is like your little guardian angel.

Hope this helps!

Last edited by Ebenia; 03-27-2014 at 07:54 AM.
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Unread 03-27-2014, 08:21 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Unread 03-27-2014, 08:27 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Greetings,

The closer is Helios to the horizon, the brighter is the sky. Helios is separated by the horizon only by 12 degrees, which means that the sky was more bright than dark. You have a diurnal chart, Kronos will tend to give mixed results: not very bad, but not good either. This type of charts are called crepuscular, because often, you canít tell if is day or night for sure. In your case, I have no doubt. I will share a few words only for the planetary level.

Kronos reaches the maximum brilliance between first and second station.Your Kronos is close to you first station. In fact, he was preparing to depart. The brilliance gives him power. Kronos is making a phasis prior the birth. Stationary status of a planet, prior the birth, is a heavy duty. This phenomenon gives emphasis on his dealings. Kronos has followed a visible path because raised and culminated by night. The exposure was pretty good. This planet, at planetary level is very fit. Unfotunetly, it will bring you at some point troubles.

Kronos in the Lion close to MC, is announcing a twist of fate in the youth and before manhood. Transits are like the secondary of a watch. They canít tell the year or the month of given event but only the moment. The fractals of times given by transits are to small. Kronos must be activated to feel his presence. Maybe you will feel his presence by transits, beginning with 2015. Donít panic, your Kronos is not as bad as it looks.

Excellent delineation-thank you!
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Unread 03-27-2014, 01:30 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
You are absolutely correct in the fact that your Saturn is heavily debilitated. However, everyone here has missed the obvious, very easy to spot thing, and that is the saving grace of Jupiter. Your Jupiter is aspecting the houses that are influenced by Saturn - 9th house where Saturn lies, is 5th house from Jupiter so Jupiter aspects that house and protects it. So for example when you had problems with school, Jupiter came in just in time and saved you from having rest of your life problems because you would not have finished your last term exams...but you just did! That is shown by Jupiters saving grace.
While this is a possibility, as Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of the 9th, Jupiter is in square aspect with Cancer, not trine. Jupiter is also retrograde and not making a phasis although he is moving toward his second station.

I would think that Moon as Sect Light, 9th house ruler, exalted and regarding from the sextile has more direct control and power than Jupiter regarding matters of the 9th.
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I'm noticing that most who have responded here seemed to have missed the big picture. It seems like a lot of people didn't read the whole post. While you twist Saturn around to find his benevolence by bringing up every obscure thing you can, you miss that Saturn actually has been a malevolent influence in this native's life.

She's described a "grim home life" with Saturn ruling the Fourth Sign, related to us stories about how Saturn affected her in her mid-teens (which I'm willing to bet was when she was 15 and 16, when Saturn would have been activated as Lord of the Year), and how Saturn's return filled her with such great sorrow for such a long amount of time. But it's fine, because Saturn is a degree and a half away from a third magnitude star of no note.

I think it's best to be more realistic. Yes, Saturn is a bad influence in this person's life. So where's the disconnect? It's that the native doesn't completely understand time lords and is relying completely on transits, and that the native is lucky enough to have Saturn ruling and in houses that aren't as difficult to work with (aside from the Fourth, which can be pretty bad).
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Is Saturn a malefic in this person's life? Or, is it rather a mixed influence?

-looking at essential dignities: Saturn is in detriment by sign; but its in its own term (according to Ptolemy-see his "Tetrabiblios"; also see Ibn Ezra and al-Biruni books in which Ptolemy's "Tetrabiblos" terms are listed); Saturn is in its own Face; and, by Triplicity (v Ibn Ezra and al-Biruni books, as listed in my post above), Saturn is the co-ruler (both by day and night) of the Fiery Triplicity, so is at least partially dignified by Triplicity.

-referencing one of the 2 "determinations of dignity" calculating methods given in al-Biruni (one of the point systems given there), sign is assigned 5 points, exaltation 4 points, term 3 points, triplicity 2 points and face 1 point. Using this table, we would give Saturn in the reference chart -5 points for detriment by sign, but we would also give Saturn +3 points for (Ptolemaic) term, and +1 point for face, and (because Saturn is co-ruler of the Fiery Triplicity) +1 point for this partial triplicity participation. S0, -5 and +5 totals = 0 regarding essential dignity, which suggests then that accidental dignities and debilities will be an important factor in coming to a final determination regarding the probable Saturn trend here.

-accidentals: of course the retrograde status is a major detriment (according to the Western tradition) The sect issue, though, is open to question (see Marius Cojoc's observations in his first post to this thread) But by whole sign (used by the Hellenists but not by later authors) Saturn is in the 10th whole sign house, Saturn (a male planet, see books by Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra, in my list) in a male sign (Leo), and Saturn (a male planet) in a male degree of Leo (see lists of male/female degrees in Abu Mashar, al-Biruni and Ibn Ezra), and Saturn in the sign-monomoiria of Libra (in exaltation by monomoiria connection), and Saturn is in a Birght degree (see books listing these by Abu Mashar, al-Biruni and Ibn Ezra) Do these 5 accidentals offset the detriment of retrograde (or of retrograde and out of sect, discounting Marius Cojoc's observations)? My OPINION is that they greatly modify the accidental detriments.

I do not believe that Saturn here has been transformed into a functional benefic-no.
But I do believe that the totality of testimonies mentioned, render Saturn a net-mixed influence in this specific chart, rather than a pure malefic. I suggest that Saturn under these conditions would sometimes manifest its disruptive and problematical influence, and at other times would manifest its constructive and stabilizing qualities. So the "Saturn behaving well", as described by the OP, could well be accounted for.

I would request the OP to comment more extensively upon whether, in the OP's experience, Saturn has been-on balance-a decided malefic or a more mixed (malefic sometimes, benefic sometimes) influence, in the OP's life up to the present time...

Books referred to:
Abu Mashar "Abbreviation..."
Ptolemy: "Tetrabiblos"
al-Biruni: "Book of Instructions..."
Ibn Ezra: "Beginning of Wisdom"

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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Greetings, Marius.

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
Greetings,

The attitude of the planet can be judge by reporting the planet to 3 basic levels:
For clarification, when you say the "attitude" of the planet you are referring to whether or not the effects of the planet will be for the native or turned away from the native?

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
1.terrestrial level. For example, if the planet is conducting businesses of a bad place (12th place, 6th place Ö etc), the planet tend to harm the native. If the planet is not conducting businesses of such a place, it tends to help the native.
Yes, this is a classic example in traditional astrology of how a planet can be an accidental malefic if it is Lord (or Lady) of a malefic house.

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2.planetary level. For example, if the planet is properly configurated with their Light, (Kronos and Zeus with Helios, Aphrodite and Ares with Selene) the planet tends to help the native.
This to me is a bit of an oversimplication of what we have gotten from Schmidt's studies. I may be misunderstanding, but what you are suggesting here is that if the diurnal planets (Kronos/Saturn and Zeus/Jupiter) are on the same side of the horizon as Helios/Sun they are properly configured with their sect light; the same would be true if Aphrodite/Venus and Ares/Mars are on the same side of the horizon as Selene/Moon?

According to Schmidt, it is the planets that are of the sect of the chart that will work for the native, and the planets that are contrary to the sect of the chart that will be opposed. His analogy is to that of political parties; those in favor and those against.

It would also appear that what you are referencing here is the concept that post-Hellenism (during the time of the Persian astrologers) became known as "hayz" and "halb?"

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
3.cosmic level. For example, if a planet in sect, occupies its domicile, and the exaltation lord (if it has one and if its from opposite sect) is not in configuration with the zoidion, the planet tends to help the native.
I am not entirely sure I am following your meaning here. If a planet in sect? Do you mean in sect of the chart, or on the proper side of the horizon with it's sect light?

The only signs in which the domicile lord and exaltation lord are of the same sect are Taurus and Virgo. To clarify what you are stating here, if a planet of the sect of the chart is in his own ruled sign, and is not regarded by Ptolemaic aspect by the exaltation ruler of that sign, the planet tends to help the native? Do you have sources for this? Because it suggests that if, for example, Moon is in Cancer in a night chart and is regarded by Jupiter from the sextile, trine, square, opposition, or conjunction, the Moon will not help the native. This pretty much flies in the face of most traditonal accepted ideology.

Again according to my own limited studies of Hellenistic astrology, I belive that what you are attempting to describe is planetary fitness, which is another way to determine if a planet is fit, or competent to conduct it's business (i.e. competent as stewards of the houses it rules by both domicile and exaltation.)

The first is fitness relative to the horizon. The second is fitness relative to the lights; the third fitness relative to the zodiac, and lastly fitness relative to benefic/malefic modification.

While all of these are necessary to explore, it may be seen in this chart that Saturn, while stationing, is debilitated and retrograde, cadent, and several other things I have already outlined above. Saturn is supported by benefics (though even if he were not retrograde/returning he would never accept anything from Jupiter in Aries, the sign of his fall.)

The key here is that Saturn is cadent. Saturn is slow (retrograde)

Quote:
Slow in course, like an exhausted person, without power in the course of his journey
ITA, p. 87

Saturn is in his first station (making a phasis and this Saturn will color the native's life, but to determine how we must analyze this Saturn) and superior planets in their first station signify dissolution of purpose and uncertainty and disobedience.

Quote:
A planet in the first station is like a man ignorant of what he should do, whose bad end is present...Standing toward retrogradation is like a nervous person on account of fearing bad things in the future...
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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
So the "Saturn behaving well", as described by the OP, could well be accounted for.
dr. farr, I understand well what you are saying, in that perhaps this Saturn isn't as bad as it seems (I don't necessarily agree, but find that Saturn being cadent could be a reason that the manifestations in the natal show that Saturn doesn't get the chance to be highly disruptive) but the OP's question was specifically why the transits of Saturn weren't completely disagreeable. My point here is that this is because transiting planets are not our natal planets sprung loose and moving around.

It is readily apparent, based on the information we have been provided, that Saturn has been not completely comptent as house ruler over his signs in this native's life. See my 1st post for reference.
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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... but the OP's question was specifically why the transits of Saturn weren't completely disagreeable. My point here is that this is because transiting planets are not our natal planets sprung loose and moving around.
.
Quite true: for me, the answer to this entire issue-to the question about why Saturn "behaves well" (in transit) asked by the OP, rests on the natal dignity and detriment issue + the natal dignity or detriment of the signs Saturn will transit through, during the life of the native: unfortunately, the way I would delineate and answer this question, derives from the ashtakavarga methodology of traditional Vedic astrology (adapted to the tropical zodiacal matrix) and so I cannot elaborate about it here on the Traditional Western Forum...
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I'd like to take the chance to note that THIS, is what happens when a person strongly influenced by Saturn writes. Very long, wall of text.

Not that it's necessarily bad, but I think it is worth noting. If the Saturn is malefic in your chart, one of the potentially negative things it does is it makes the person very deliberate and pedantic. Now this would be good if you're writing a science thesis, not very good if you're having a casual conversation with friends, or when talking to cholerics.

This is particularly relevant because Saturn is in square to the Ascendant by sign, and he also in square to Mercury, which signifies your speaking and writing styles (especially since he is in the ASC).

So part of the answer is that the effects of the malefics are not always contained in the transits; sometimes it affects your character, which is, I would argue, an almost time-less entity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd...

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been...

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop...A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me...WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart?

...My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me?

I have to say that Saturn's position is not without respite. It is in the 9th/10th, which is favourable to the native. Jupiter, though poorly placed, in a dexter trine to Saturn by sign and mitigates his effects. Some people also consider being in Leo to be a mitigating factor, as it is the sign of Saturn's sect-mate, the Sun. Friends, even though they are miserable, sometimes help other out, due to their sympathies with others' condition.

I do not consider the sextile with Venus to be very helpful. Sextiles are very weak, and according to Maternus, they are only of middling strength when the sign in between is tropical or mutable (yours is mutable). So imagine, even at its full force (with the sign in between being an equinoctial sign, Aries or Libra), it is already very much weakened, so in a mutable sign the effects will be very slight.

One of the mitigating factor I would consider is the waxing Moon dominating Saturn with a dexter square. The Moon is in-sect, exalted and angular. In such a position, it tends to be beneficial to the native. It is still not full yet, but the waxing Moon is beneficial when aspecting the diurnal planets, Maternus implies.

The sleep problems you mentioned probably had to do with Saturn being in the 9th (I use Whole Signs and Equal House, by WSH it is in the 10th, by EH it is in the 9th). Among other things, the 9th signifies dreams. Of course, with a misplaced malefic in the 9th, this causes bad dreams, and this was mentioned by Maternus. In particular, since it is Saturn, it causes fearful dreams. If it had been a poorly placed Jupiter, it would be dreams that are exaggerated but false or misleading in their meanings.

I get the impression that you sometimes suffer from depression, yes?

Doing the right thing, being responsible, being hard-working...these are all Saturnine traits. The part where you say you do not get as much rewards for your endeavour is also partly due to Saturn in the Whole Sign 10th; because his position is both good and bad, he brings both the good (your attitude towards work) and the bad (lack of recognition and monetary rewards).
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Quite true: for me, the answer to this entire issue-to the question about why Saturn "behaves well" (in transit) asked by the OP, rests on the natal dignity and detriment issue + the natal dignity or detriment of the signs Saturn will transit through, during the life of the native: unfortunately, the way I would delineate and answer this question, derives from the ashtakavarga methodology of traditional Vedic astrology (adapted to the tropical zodiacal matrix) and so I cannot elaborate about it here on the Traditional Western Forum...

As we have
no provision for a specifically 'Vedic Traditional sub-Forum' as such,
then, for those interested to explore ASHTAKAVARGA METHODOLOGY
a brief explanation is available at
http://www.kas-astrology.com/uploads...7/lesson01.pdf
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
I have to say that Saturn's position is not without respite.. Jupiter, though poorly placed, in a dexter trine to Saturn by sign and mitigates his effects. .

I think this is a very significant observation: as you know, aspect by sign (which I refer to as "platik" aspect) was the way to judge aspects (and conjunctions) during the Hellenist period (right up to Rhetorius in the 7th century) True, with the Islamic transitional era (and subsequently) determination of aspects switched to aspect-by-degree, the aspect by sign method of the Hellenists being discarded. However, there certainly is historical warrant for considering aspect-by-sign in making a Traditionalist-based delineation.

Now, Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom"), in the chapter immediately prior to his discussion of the Lots, states that "...the harm of Saturn is removed by Jupiter..." (and mentions aspect by Jupiter via sextile or trine) So, using Hellenist aspect-by-sign coupled with the "Jupiter-removing-the-harm-of-Saturn-by sextile-or-trine-aspect" principle** mentioned by Ibn Ezra, and applying this to the OP's chart vis-a-vis the Saturn considerations of that chart, the platik (by sign) trine of Jupiter to Saturn would modify (for the better) Saturn's condition/influence potentials, in that chart, as Larxene has noted. (Ebenia also notes this Jupiter-to-Saturn by-sign aspect in her post earlier in this thread)



**This "Jupiter removes the harm of Saturn by sextile/trine aspect" principle is also to be found in other Islamic transitional era sources, such as Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (I believe in chapter 18)= note that the "Great Introduction" is NOT the commonly available "Abbreviation", which is a highly condensed booklet of 58 pages: the "Great Introduction" is Abu Mashar's elaboration of his understanding of the principles and methodologies of the astrological art, and runs to 488 pages of text and commentaries.

(Addendum: the "Great Introduction to the Science of Astrology", Frankfurt am, 1985; facsimile of MS 1508. Carullah Collection, Suleymaniye Library, Istanbul)

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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Greetings in return, Marius.

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
Greetings

Fitness of the planet is reffering to potentiality. As I already explain on this forum, the potentiality it's a matter of capability, ability, strength, power and indicate that something might have the chance to happen or not to happen or shows how something could be done well.
I have often found that if we want to refer members to posts we have made previously it is helpful to include a link. Goodness knows I have made several posts that would pertain to this conversation but I do not expect that anyone would care to search them out. It has been my experience that the only member here at AW with that kind of respect (in that he may post a reference and get other members to search for it) is dr. farr.

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In the previous message I was talking about attitude, not fitness. In simple terms, the attitude is reffering to the potential of the planet to do good or bad for the native. The attitude indicates how the planet will act, regarding the needs of the native.
Yes, and you did point out, despite your arguments with Schmidt's definition of sect, that you would consider this a diurnal chart becaus Helios/Sun is within 12* of the horizon. I can understand why it could be easy to reach this conclusion, since in the dawn it does become light (visibly) before the Sun actually rises. That said, the Sun has not yet risen.

I am hopeful that dr. farr can again help us out with is vast knowlege of all things astrology in that there is a delineative differenece when we are speaking of the Sun near the horizon?

For myself and the majority of traditional astrologers, the Sun has not risen until it has crested the horizon, just as the Moon has not completely set until she dips below it. The visual would be on a flat plane. Can you see the body of the Sun or Moon, or can you not?

I believe, especially with what little the OP has given us to go on, that this is indeed a night chart. She said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.
What she is describing is an out of sect Saturn, ruling her 3rd/4th signs as a completely incompetent house ruler. The ASC being squared from the 3rd in her natal chart means that transiting Saturn had already opposed her natal Saturn and was squaring the ASC from his daytime/preferred house. Which speaks to the point I have been trying to make. Saturn in this chart is debilitated, but the transits of Saturn don't have to be so. And I do believe that is the question that was posed. "How is it possible that Saturn, when he is so heavily debilitated in my natal chart, behaves well when in transit?"

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The cadent places are not weak in the sense of strengthens, they are weak in pursuing the priorities in someone’s life like pivotal places do. The dynamic of the cadent and succedent places will always be reported to the pivots. The places must always be checked in triads: 12-1-2; 3-4-5; 6-7-8; 9-10-11.
While this is against generally accepted doctrine, in that the potential is found in the succedent place, realized in the angular place, and destroyed in the cadent place, I actually agree with your conceptualization of the triad. Cadent planets are perpetualy falling. Why this was later misconstrued is a mystery to me, but this is one of those instances where I have previously posted on this fourm about an idea. I'm certain you have not read it. Planets that are falling away from the angles do not create events, they react to them. When something falls, it can fall into place, or fall out of it.

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For example, the priorities in someone’s life could be: health, shelter, love, achievements. The 9th place is related with knowledge. The native achievements will be guide by knowledge. There is nothing week here.
This is perhaps another misunderstanding on my part, but at no point have I personally stated that a debilitated Saturn is "weak." Rather, it is debilitated.

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
I’m not following the medieval doctrine but the babylonian one. Every planet has a life cycle. The maximum strength and vigour of a havey planet will be in fact before it reaches its peak, after the first station, in the phase so called, achronychial rise.
I apologize, Marius, but I do not see how you have been able to relate this back to what the OP has given us of her natal Saturn and the effects it has had on the natal houses it rules. I do wonder if most replying to this thread read only the title and not the post?

As an explanation for those watching this thread who may not understand, a heavy/superior planet (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars) stations retrograde (1st station) at the superior trine to the Sun. it is retrograde until it reaches its second station, at the inferior trine to the Sun. (This is a Mundane and not Zodiacal trine.) At the oppostion to the Sun, every superior planet will be retrograde, and will have entered into curtailed passage; when it is seen to neither rise nor set. Once it passes the opposition, it is said to make an achronical rise.


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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
about the life o human being. The human is born, and its passing to 4 ages: childhood (AS), adulthood (MC), manhood (DS), old age (IC). Between adulthood (MC) and manhood (DS) you will find yourself most powerful ( 9th place).

The same logic, babilonian applied to the path of the havey planets. Before the planet reaches its manhood, its power will be the greatest.

Retrogradation of a havey planet, in the first helical cycle, force the planet to look forward, to the future. After is shifting its position relative to Helios, the planet is force to look backward, to the past. The farther is the planet form its place of departure the later in life the planet will give its gifts. Its logical that retrograde planets, to grant their gifts later in life. There are many things to say on this chapter. I found the delineations of medieval era to be in general, slightly in error.
I would question then which Persian astrologers you have been reading, because this part of you post is quite eloquent and not entirely out of line with those same Persian astrologers. If, however, you are referring to the later Medieval tradition ala Bonatti and later Lilly, you may have a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
I apologize if my explanations are not easy to follow. As I said, that Kronos will give mixed results, and could be considered anyhow, but not weak.
I am a bit more comfortable with your Greek references than most would be, which is why I try to clarify them. This is a learning forum for mostly beginners. I've yet to discover where anyone on this thread has said that Saturn was weak?
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Last edited by tsmall; 03-29-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Unread 03-29-2014, 05:54 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

"Planets falling away from the angles do not create events, they react to them" is a concept that is supported (but not using the same words) in Paulus Alexandrianus; the information in the OP's post, seems to show this reactive situation regarding Saturnine matters. In the chart, of course (for me) Saturn is in the 10th house (for domification considerations)-however, considering the MC point itself, Saturn does fall away from the MC, by position and by direction (moving away from 0 MC by retrograde motion)...
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Unread 03-29-2014, 07:27 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Examining the sunrise times for Hereford England, on the date of the OP's birth, the time of birth is fully 1 hour earlier than the time of sunrise. The Sun is 12 degrees below the ascendant line in the chart. Crepuscular sunrise, as I understand it, occurs when, although the body of the Sun is still under the horizon, the amount of light is sufficient for objects to be distinguishable (assuming a clear or mostly clear sky), so that outdoor activities can commence. Historically this has been referred to when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon (in astrology, 6 degrees below the ascendant line) In the OP's chart, the Sun is 12 degrees below, so it seems that the Sun is beyond the limit of what could be considered as a crepuscular sunrise: I'd have to conclude that the OP's chart is, essentially, a nocturnal one. "Crepuscluar" means "twilight" and I think, given the sunrise data, this chart is more of a twilight one than a decidedly nocturnal one: however, for delineative purposes, I myself would view it as "nocturnal".

Last edited by dr. farr; 03-29-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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