Astrologers' Community Profecting charts

 Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)

#26
02-17-2013, 11:42 PM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,114
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by !4C So this sequence was an error? It's a period of 13, not an offset? That is what I initially expected. I was really reaching to come up with an explanation for an offset. However I'm the king of creative BS, so mission accomplished.
I'm not terribly familiar with the Pauline method, but I think it is an offset. If you notice, it's more of where you start the count. 13+12=25. 25+12=37 and so on.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by !4C That leads to the next question, is this difference of period to synchronize with important cycles in the transits? Maybe a more accurate period is not a whole number. What would be the chances that it is a whole number?
I'm not sure this is addressing your question, but I'm not sure I completely understand the question either.

I'm not by any means an expert, but I don't believe profections have anything at all to do with transits. It is a means of directing the ASC through the signs. For annual profections, the ASC moves one 30* arc per year. Yet another reason that I prefer to use whole signs for natal charts, because it is easier to see it...

An example. My ASC is at 14* Libra. Each year around my birthday the ASC will have profected in zodiacal motion to that degree of the next sign. So on my first birthday the profected ASC was at 14* Scorpio, and so on.

What I think you might be missing is that during that year the ASC actually continues moving, each month to a new sign, and each day to a new degree (or fraction there of.)

So this year (which for me started with my Solar return in September 2012) my profected ASC was in Taurus, my natal 8th. This brings the ASC to the 8th, making the 8th the first.

If I look for today, Feb 17 2013, we have Taurus for the year, but Virgo for the month and Virgo for the day. I have never seen anyone use monthly/daily profections to explain them, but it would seem that much like primary directions when the ASC comes to a planet or key natal point we might look for an event, especially if there are other indications/testimonies for one.

They way that I have mostly seen (and use them myself at this stage of learning) is in conjunction with the Solar Return. We would look to see who the Lord of the profection year is, and then look at his position in the SR chart, as well as the position of the SR year ruler.

__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
 The Following User Says Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (02-18-2013)
#27
02-18-2013, 03:46 AM
 dr. farr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: los angeles california Posts: 12,474
Re: Profecting charts

By implication in starting the count (of the first year of life) at 1 (instead of at 0, as in the Egyptian method) the prenatal time is obviously taken into account as a time factor: thus by Egyptian 0 is used for the birth year (not turning into a 1 until 1 year after birth) whereas in Pauline 1 is used for the entire birth year, turning into 2 at the return of the birth date, etc...

(Note: I am not aware of any of the current "leaders"/authors of the Traditionalist revival, or of the neo-Hellenist movement, using either Pauline profection or Pauline dodekatemorion: ALL use Egyptain profection and Egyptian dodekatemorion; when I post about Pauline profection or dodeks, I am referring only to what I use, and am not attempting to proselytize; I found these variant techniques {the Pauline} in the old literature, and tested them out, and liked the results, so have continued to use them; whether or not the Pauline are superior to, equal to or inferior to the Egyptian profections and dodeks, I cannot say, only that they have worked to my personal satisfaction)

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-18-2013 at 03:59 AM.
 The Following User Says Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post: tsmall (02-18-2013)
#28
02-18-2013, 04:11 AM
 tsmall Senior Member, Moderator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 3,114
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr. farr (Note: I am not aware of any of the current "leaders"/authors of the Traditionalist revival, or of the neo-Hellenist movement, using either Pauline profection or Pauline dodekatemorion: ALL use Egyptain profection and Egyptian dodekatemorion; when I post about Pauline profection or dodeks, I am referring only to what I use, and am not attempting to proselytize; I found these variant techniques {the Pauline} in the old literature, and tested them out, and liked the results, so have continued to use them; whether or not the Pauline are superior to, equal to or inferior to the Egyptian profections and dodeks, I cannot say, only that they have worked to my personal satisfaction)
I think this is something that often gets missed, dr. farr. We look at astrologers today and see the back and forth over which technique is considered "technically correct" and argue unto death (not just in modern vs. neo-traditional, but in the traditional) about which way is the correct way. Valens, as confusing to read as he might be, was at least explicit in explaining the other methods that he knew of for doing things, whether he favored them or not. The more we explore the "new" texts that have come to light, the more we can see that each astrologer/master had his own way of doing things. It's a reminder, I think, that it is important to study the old methods and their variations as given, and then try them all out to see which one works best for us as individuals.

Astrology is a language. We all can agree on that. The real question is which parts, words, grammar and sentence structure does the astrologer use in order to express his/her meaning? Or more appropriately read the chart? English, as spoken, is different from England to Canada to Australia to the US. We are speaking the "same" language, but how we use it is..user defined.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
 The Following User Says Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post: dr. farr (02-18-2013)
#29
02-18-2013, 06:16 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tsmall ....Astrology is a language. We all can agree on that. The real question is which parts, words, grammar and sentence structure does the astrologer use in order to express his/her meaning? Or more appropriately read the chart? English, as spoken, is different from England to Canada to Australia to the US. We are speaking the "same" language, but how we use it is..user defined.
Symbols are created to depict Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Asc/Desc/MC/IC and so on
AND THEN placed within a symbolic circle
so that those SYMBOLIC IMAGES for planets may be 'translated' into 'language' and 'grammar' BEFORE being 'interpreted'

A symbol has endless meanings, dependent on the context.

AND, there are multiple language formats for the 'translation' of any symbolic astrological chart

Those planetary symbols are 'translated' by millions of individuals worldwide
FROM symbolic form INTO their own native language, be it French, German, Spanish, Russian, Greek, Roumanian, Tibetan, Eskimo and so on
__________________
#30
02-19-2013, 03:36 AM
 dr. farr Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: los angeles california Posts: 12,474
Re: Profecting charts

"A symbol is an external representation of an interior Reality"
(old hermetic axiom)
#31
01-23-2016, 04:15 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by !4C So this sequence was an error? It's a period of 13, not an offset? That is what I initially expected.
UPDATE

EXPLANATION OF period of 13
DODEKATEMORIA
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dodekatemorion.html
Discussion at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8999

Quote:
 Originally Posted by !4C I was really reaching to come up with an explanation for an offset. However I'm the king of creative BS, so mission accomplished. That leads to the next question, is this difference of period to synchronize with important cycles in the transits? Maybe a more accurate period is not a whole number. What would be the chances that it is a whole number?
__________________
#32
01-23-2016, 07:36 PM
 waybread Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: A class M planet near you Posts: 14,116
Re: Profecting charts

This thread may be of interest:
http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1338990298
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
#33
01-24-2016, 12:20 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

INTRODUCING PROFECTIONS

7 STARS ASTROLOGY
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=362

'....Profections are one of the oldest, most important, and easiest predictive techniques to learn....'
__________________
#34
01-24-2016, 01:02 AM
 waybread Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: A class M planet near you Posts: 14,116
Re: Profecting charts

Seriously, JA? I've looked at a few, and have not found them transparently obvious.

Have you got a few charts in mind to post and delineate?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
#35
01-24-2016, 01:43 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dr. farr The place where the count starts, ie the first house, can make a difference: the Egyptian method (which ahs always been the dominant one, and is the one followed by Valens) begins the count at 0 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 0) Paulus of Alexandria differed, and began the count at 1 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 1) I myself have followed the Pauline profection (all of the available authors have chosen to follow the Egyptian method of starting @ 0, including Lehman, Ben Dykes, etc) In my experience I have found Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method.
Paulus gave one of the clearer expositions of the basic technique (Ch. 31, from Greenbaum trans., 2001):
As many years as the nativity should spin out,
we pass these through from the hour-marking zōidion [sign],
giving the first year of engendered time to the Hōroskopos [ascending sign]
and the second to the post-ascension of the Hōroskopos [2nd place],
and so on for the rest in the following zōidia [signs],
until the 12th number should be completed.

Basic Technique: Annual Profections of the Ascendant

Paulus quote illustrates basic profections,
of Ascendant from one sign to next for each year of life.
Paulus gives examples, of how the Profection ruler becomes “lord of the year”.
The technique is easy - requires no computer software,
there are no specific degrees invlved,
rather just discrete hops from one place in the chart
to the next
at intervals of time.

The technique is “circumambulation”, meaning a “walking around” the chart. Seven Stars Astrology
__________________
#36
01-24-2016, 02:58 AM
 Monk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 2,041
Re: Profecting charts

Hi Jup, eekk an archaeoastronomer,

I agree with some but not with others, i'm dealing with birth charts, i can make a difference in area of RECTIFIED FROM APPROX. TIME OF BIRTH!

For Helena P. Blavatsky, she never knew time of birth, however most astrology sites now put it as 02:17am on 12th August 1831, this is dubious, being Rectified from Approx. Time by astrologers!

For her who was born in a country that followed the Julian Calendar during time of birth we get a date of 31st July 1831, but this is a Julian Date, thus 12 days have to be added, for true accurate interpretation, so as far as i know 12 August 1831, will give a date for astrology programmes!

Time of birth is far more dubious, due to rectified time by astrologers, why choose 02:17am???

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blavatsky,_Helena_P.

The above doesn't seem to work, but i'm sure you can find it by search engine!

Yes on day in location, Sirius was rising 11 mins 18 secs before Sunrise, but choosing 02:17 am was putting "Muddy Waters" on top, sorry for musical pun, we will never know time of birth for Blavatsky, but choosing 02:17 am is very odd, as ALNILAM WAS RISING!!

Attached Images
 picture 61 40%.jpg (62.8 KB, 2 views)

Last edited by Monk; 01-24-2016 at 03:06 AM.
 The Following User Says Thank You to Monk For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (01-24-2016)
#37
01-24-2016, 03:14 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Monk Hi Jup, eekk an archaeoastronomer, I agree with some but not with others, i'm dealing with birth charts, i can make a difference in area of RECTIFIED FROM APPROX. TIME OF BIRTH! For Helena P. Blavatsky, she never knew time of birth, however most astrology sites now put it as 02:17am on 12th August 1831, this is dubious, being Rectified from Approx. Time by astrologers! For her who was born in a country that followed the Julian Calendar during time of birth we get a date of 31st July 1831, but this is a Julian Date, thus 12 days have to be added, for true accurate interpretation, so as far as i know 12 August 1831, will give a date for astrology programmes! Time of birth is far more dubious, due to rectified time by astrologers, why choose 02:17am??? Please scroll down to source notes on link below:- http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blavatsky,_Helena_P. The above doesn't seem to work, but i'm sure you can find it by search engine! Yes on day in location, Sirius was rising 11 mins 18 secs before Sunrise, but choosing 02:17 am was putting "Muddy Waters" on top, sorry for musical pun, we will never know time of birth for Blavatsky, but choosing 02:17 am is very odd, as ALNILAM WAS RISING!! Graph on private members download:-
Hi Monk
That's interesting,
but reliance on a time that is not known for certain means
profecting the chart would be challenging
and not necessarily reliable
__________________
#38
01-24-2016, 03:27 AM
 Monk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 2,041
Re: Profecting charts

It would be easy to connect Blavatsky to Sirius, but why do astrologers make a soup on top?

Also, obviously you follow Sirius connections, but Alnilam is far more difficult, it seems that some esoteric astrologers have rectified time to correspond to Alnilam rising....02:17am as given on most astrology websites...very dubious!

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Helena_Blavatsky
 The Following User Says Thank You to Monk For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (01-24-2016)
#39
01-24-2016, 05:04 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Monk It would be easy to connect Blavatsky to Sirius, but why do astrologers make a soup on top? Also, obviously you follow Sirius connections, but Alnilam is far more difficult, it seems that some esoteric astrologers have rectified time to correspond to Alnilam rising....02:17am as given on most astrology websites...very dubious! http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Helena_Blavatsky
Different astrologers often rectify charts to different times of birth for the same chart Monk, so dubious
__________________
#40
01-24-2016, 06:12 AM
 Monk Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 2,041
Re: Profecting charts

I have no idea when God was born, or Son of God, icons matter, and to lesser degree Blavatsky...are we fooling everybody, by esoteric doctrine???

How can we get astrology right, when icons are very dubiously activated???

Esoteric Religion has a major role in our progress forward, i'm not sure we should take that STEP!!!!!!!!!!!!
#41
05-14-2016, 08:28 PM
 Sovalis Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 18
Re: Profecting charts

Wonder, being new to Profections, is there any significance to the profection ascendant returning to the first house?
#42
05-15-2016, 12:07 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sovalis Wonder, being new to Profections, is there any significance to the profection ascendant returning to the first house?
As there are twelve houses,
the profected ascendant returns to the first house
every twelve years

__________________
#43
05-15-2016, 03:57 AM
 Alkaid Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 41
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sovalis Wonder, being new to Profections, is there any significance to the profection ascendant returning to the first house?
It should be a fairly big year, with changes or events that greatly influence the next 11 profected years thereafter or the rest of the life, even moreso if the ascendant is well disposed.

Personal revelations, finding a new purpose in life, or new motivations aren't uncommon.
 The Following User Says Thank You to Alkaid For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (05-15-2016)
#44
08-06-2016, 11:07 AM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,288
Re: Profecting charts

I am currently learning about Profection so it would be nice if this thread gets activated again to discuss.
#45
08-06-2016, 02:14 PM
 Jehan Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 103
Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV I am currently learning about Profection so it would be nice if this thread gets activated again to discuss.
 The Following User Says Thank You to Jehan For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (08-06-2016)
#46
08-06-2016, 02:24 PM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,288
Re: Profecting charts

Yes, I did. But I found it dreadful to follow it, I lost myself reading it. Can we have a famous person chart and examine it?
#47
08-06-2016, 02:39 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV Yes, I did. But I found it dreadful to follow it, I lost myself reading it. Can we have a famous person chart and examine it?
Major issue with famous person charts is a lack of reliable time of birth
What did you find most difficult to understand at http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=362
__________________
#48
08-06-2016, 02:51 PM
 theV Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,288
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JUPITERASC Major issue with famous person charts is a lack of reliable time of birth What did you find most difficult to understand at http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=362
Everything I guess. I felt better watching a tutorial video. There are many unnecessary explanation in the article.
#49
08-06-2016, 03:15 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 49,004
Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by theV Everything I guess. I felt better watching a tutorial video. There are many unnecessary explanation in the article.
What part of the article at http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=362 did you consider an unnecessary explanation?
and
what part did you consider not explained sufficiently?
__________________
#50
08-06-2016, 03:26 PM
 Jehan Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 103
Just try and focus on the profected Ascedant, the profected ruler of the asc first. In what Sign is it posited. What are the affairs ruled by that sign/house? Look to see if there are any transits, eclipses, and other such movements to the ruler. Where is the ruler in the natal chart? What aspects to the ruler are made by other planets? Where is the ruler in the solar return? Write it down as you work these questions out. That would provide a good starting point.
 The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jehan For This Useful Post: JUPITERASC (08-06-2016), theV (08-06-2016), tsmall (08-06-2016)

 Tags charts, profecting

 Thread Tools Display Modes Linear Mode

 Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules
 Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Welcome!     Introduce Yourself and Your Astrology Background     Education Board     Recommendations         Advertising     Read My Chart General Astrology     Natal Astrology         Astrology and Psychology         Celebrity Astrology         Aspects & configurations         Dignities & debilities         Houses & cusps         Relocation Astrology     Modern Astrology     Traditional Astrology     Horary Astrology         Horary Technique         Horary Questions on Relational Issues         Career-related Horary Questions         Horary Questions on Lost items and missing people         Horary Questions on Travelling, moving and relocation         Horary Questions on Medicine and health     Vedic Astrology     Chinese Astrology     Predictive Astrology         Transits         Progressions         Lunar/Solar         Lunar returns         Solar returns         Planetary returns     Relational Astrology     Vocational Astrology     Other Astrology         Medical Astrology         Sports Astrology         Electional and Event Astrology         Research and Development         Degree Symbols         Karmic Astrology         Mundane Astrology         Fixed stars, asteroids and other cosmic objects         Spiritual Astrology         Astrological Parts Anything Else...     Chat         Show off board         Hot topic arena         Humor         Spiritual Realm

 Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post Draco Traditional Astrology 51 06-20-2015 03:18 PM T-2000 Read My Chart 1 04-14-2009 05:25 PM joannski3 Sports Astrology 10 07-26-2007 11:32 AM joannski3 Sports Astrology 2 07-25-2007 04:03 PM TheEmeraldEmpire Relational Astrology 4 07-29-2005 03:49 PM

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:13 AM.

 -- futura -- alauddinRS -- Simple Blue -- Mobile Contact Us - AstrologyWeekly.com - Archive - Top