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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Saturn, Jupiter and Sun rejoice by day, Mars, Venus and Moon rejoice by night, and Mercury rejoices by day and by night, for it belongs to the diurnal sect by day, and to the nocturnal sect by night. Diurnal stars rejoice with diurnal images, nocturnal stars rejoice with nocturnal images.

Cancer Rising, Moon with Cancer, Sun with Leo, Mercury with Virgo, Venus with Libra, Mars with Scorpio, Jupiter with Sagittarius, Saturn with Capricorn, Saturn with Aquarius, Jupiter with Pisces, Mars with Aries, Venus with Taurus, Mercury with Gemini. Examine the standard of the cosmic placements with universals, nativities and initiations.

Domiciles, exaltations, winds, bounds and configurations control universal harmony. Moon with the moistening Crab, Sun with the royal Lion, and the five stars with the order of the seven-zone, male and female, they rule over the Earth.

Saturn is exalted with Libra and depressed with Aries
Jupiter is exalted with Cancer and depressed with Capricorn
Mars is exalted with Capricorn and depressed with Cancer
Sun is exalted with Aries and depressed with Libra
Venus is exalted with Pisces and depressed with Virgo
Mercury is exalted with Virgo and depressed with Pisces
Moon is exalted with Taurus and depressed with Scorpio

Stars with their domiciles, exaltations and bounds are always good, when benefic, they are better, when malefic, they are less bad. Those who have many favorable placements have distinguished nativities, for they approach divinity.

Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces - Venus, Mars, Moon - West Wind
Leo, Sagittarius, Aries - Sun, Jupiter, Saturn - North Wind
Virgo, Capricorn, Taurus - Venus, Moon, Mars - South Wind
Libra, Aquarius, Gemini - Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter - East Wind

Stars control the four divine winds. They become good whenever the houserulers are ascending, or are post-ascending and favorably placed. The first ruler is diurnal, the second is nocturnal, and the third is cooperating. Changeover of the whole trigon occurs with the completion of the rising time and the recurrence years of the predominating houseruler handing over to the other ruler.

All wandering and non-wandering stars are mighty when rising from under the beams of the Sun, but when they are setting, they lose strength. Similarly, swift moving stars are better, while those retreating are worse. Additionally, the morning rising stars are masculine and better, while those evening rising are feminine and worse.

I - Life, Appearance, Siblings - Early
II - Livelihood, Wealth, Expectations - After Early
III - Relatives, Partnership, Weakness - Before End
IV - Parents, Household, Mysticism - End
V - Fortune, Beneficence, Legacy - After End
VI - Injury, Enmity, Servants - Before Later
VII - Affairs, Success, Living Abroad - Later
VIII - Property, Acquisition, Inheritance - After Later
IX - Travel, Education, Inaction - Before Middle
X - Action, Rank, Children - Middle
XI - Friendship, Opportunities, Gifts - After Middle
XII - Suffering, Maleficence, Enemies - Before Early

In nativities, malefics are better when they are post-ascending, for then they do not harm the stars and images that are ascending. They are best when ascending and favorably placed, for then they bring good fortune. Inoperative stars cause reversals and weakness.

In initiations, the ascending images, especially the I and X, the Sun and the Moon will indicate the outcomes. The pre-ascending images indicate the past. The post-ascending images give signs for the future for the corresponding ascension.

One must investigate the dodekatopos thoroughly, for one will quite easily determine the areas in which the nativity is fortunate or unfortunate.

Stars with the assembly are powerful and common, they indicate admixture of qualities.
Stars with the hexagon are moderated and harmonious, they indicate moderate fortune.
Stars with the tetragon are powerful and disharmonious, they indicate good and bad fortune.
Stars with the trigon are effective and harmonious, they indicate good fortune and authority.
Stars with the diameter are powerful and disharmonious, they indicate rivalry and opposition.

Stars that precede are superior to those that follow, thus it is better for benefics to be on the right of malefics, and we say this for all assemblies, configurations and like-principles. In every case it is necessary to examine the assemblies and configurations with degree, for they become stronger the closer they are to their figures. Like-principles of daylight, rising times and houserulers cause harmonious affinity, but it will be very weak if the images are turned away.

It will be necessary to accurately measure the distances between powerful stars, then measure the same or reverse from the Hour-Marker, in order that, whatever relations the stars bear to each other, the Hour-Marker may bear to the Lots, and that they may be as they were Hour-Markers.

The Lot of Fortune - Sun to Moon, reverse by night
The Lot of Daimon - Moon to Sun, reverse by night
The Lot of Accusation - Saturn to Mars, reverse by night
The Lot of Father - Sun to Jupiter, reverse by night
The Lot of Mother - Venus to Moon, reverse by night
The Lot of Siblings - Saturn to Jupiter, reverse by night
The Lot of Affairs - Jupiter to Venus, reverse by night
The Lot of Children - Jupiter to Saturn, reverse by night

And configurations are very strong within three degrees, for then the gods strike each other with their rays. Thus each star sends seven rays to seven images. And Saturn and Mars are very bad with presence within three degrees and with tetragon and diameter rays, while Jupiter and Venus intervene with presence and all rays. The Sun and the Moon, if they are not Predominator, also destroy with presence, tetragon and diameter in the Length of Life.

Hour-Marker, the tetragon and the diameter command great powers. Stars are most powerful by exactly rising, culminating, setting and anti-culminating within the ascending images. Benefics ascending the degrees make distinguished nativities and good initiations, but unfavorably placed malefics cause reversals and ruin.

Investigate the Sun and the Moon and the familiarity of the attendant stars. When both Lights are with ascending masculine images, with the Lightbringer attended, being present or exchanging rays within three degrees with the five stars, the nativities will be royal. And if the guardians are themselves ascending the degrees, the nativities will be world-ruling.

Every kind of honour is divined from the nature of attending stars, for Saturn brings about power based on wealth and amassing of treasure, Jupiter and Venus through favours, gifts, honours and rulership, Mars through governorship, victories and fears of subordinates, and Mercury through intelligence, education and management of affairs.

Benefics with the Ascending Node cause good fortune, malefics indicate misfortune. The images and the stars cause the beginning of matters, the houserulers cause the end of matters. When the Moon is ascending while the domicile ruler is inoperative, it indicates brilliant beginning and bad end, and we say this for both nativities and initiations.

If Jupiter and Venus are favorably placed, their help is increased, if they are unfavorably placed, their help is decreased. Saturn and Mars are always bad, and they are better ascending only when exceptionally placed. They are exceedingly bad for the respective image when ascending without benefic testimony, and when they are rising and culminating with undistinguished nativities, they make destitutes, wicked, disabled, and those who are short-lived.

If there are five inoperative stars at the nativity, but if the Master of the Nativity is ascending to the degree with Fortune and Daimon, with his domicile and bound, one will be a king. If there are five operative stars, but if the Lots are pre-ascending with the malefics, the nativity is judged unviable. Multiply the degrees and fractions of the Hour-Marker, the Seven Stars and the Lots by twelve from the beginning of the images to find the dodekatemoria, the secret places of the stars.

Investigate the preceding New or Full Moon, the phase of the Moon, the placement of the Moon, the solar and lunar eclipses. If the Moon is without the presence or configuration of another star, it is void of course, and nativities and initiations are without advancement. Observe the positions of Sun and Moon at New and Full Moon, and their separations with respect to the ascensions. On this the whole forecast depends. The preceding New or Full Moon or the Moon favorably placed make good nativities and initiations. Moon is moistening with the first quarter, heating with the second quarter, drying with the third quarter, and cooling with the fourth quarter.

At every nativity, it will be necessary to examine the third, the seventh and the fortieth day of the Moon using the second, the fourth and the seventh image from the Moon. If three of the images are operative and beheld by benefics, they make distinguished nativities. If two of the images are inoperative and beheld by malefics, they make undistinguished nativities. If there is admixture of benefic and malefic testimony, they cause moderate fortune.

One must examine the schemata. Stars exalted with the assemblies of domicile rulers cause good nativities and initiations. Mars, Sun and Moon trigon from each other make highly intelligent and very wealthy nativities, those who are terrors to their enemies. Ruler of I with II and ruler of II with I make those who earn wealth without much effort, for the exchanges of good domiciles are favorable. Stars ascending with their domiciles and exaltations indicate fortunate nativities. Stars pre-ascending and post-ascending the Sun and the Moon indicate distinguished nativities.

The gods send signs to all nations, but they are not interpret the same for the different lands, for one they cause hot weather, for another they give cold weather, and for third they give temperate weather. In the same way, the considerations of weather, rising times and daylight become less discernible and causative in the equatorial zones, and naturally reversed for the southern lands.

The effects of the stars are vigorous when ascending from Sun, Moon, Fortune and Daimon, and they are especially powerful, for good or bad, whenever they are ascending with Fortune. When bright non-wandering stars of benefic nature are rising alongside the Hour-Marker, and with the Seven, they make distinguished nativities and good initiations. Intervals of one and three degrees are powerful, of seven and fifteen moderately powerful, and those up to thirty are effective.

Stars are favorably placed when they are with their exaltations, domiciles, bounds and favorable houserulers, when they are operative, especially ascending the degrees or rising and culminating, when they are rejoicing with their sects and images, when rising from the beams and swift, when they are rising alongside the favorable non-wandering stars, when they have the assembly and configuration of Jupiter, and when they have the assembly and configuration of Venus.

Stars are unfavorably placed when they are with their depressions and unfavorable houserulers, when they are inoperative, especially with the VI and the XII, when they are not rejoicing with their sects and images, when setting under the beams and retreating, whenever they are not rising alongside favorable non-wandering stars, when they are ascending from Saturn, and when they are ascending from Mars, both particularly with exchanges of rays and superior placements. Let us now proceed with nativities.


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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Investigate the seven-zone chronocratorship.

At every nativity, it will be necessary to examine the third, the seventh

and the fortieth day of the Moon

using the second, the fourth

and the seventh image from the Moon.


If three of the images are operative and beheld by benefics, it signifies distinguished nativities. If two of the images are inoperative and beheld by malefics, while the benefics are turned away, it makes for undistinguished nativities.

If the Moon is diametrical from Saturn and is void of course on the third day, it signifies those who are not nourished or undistinguished. If the Moon is the ruler of Fortune and is diametrical from Mars with the benefics turned away, while the bounds of Saturn or Mars are setting and anti-culminating, it signifies an accidental or violent death. For the third day signifies the time around birth and youth, the seventh signifies the time around adulthood, and the fortieth day signifies the time around old age and death. Examine the Times of the Twelve Images relative to the Length of Life.

The effects of the stars are vigorous when they are angular from the Lights, Fortune or Daimon. They are especially powerful, for good or bad, when they are present with Fortune at an angle. Nativities become distinguished whenever bright stars and constellations of good nature are rising in the east, or whenever bright good stars are rising alongside with the Seven. Let us now proceed with judgement of nativities.
the following dialogue mentions third, seventh and fortieth day of the moon

and is from thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=66443
BobZemco has not posted for a few years
and both Paul_ and Konrad requested their accounts closed




Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
I think I just figured this out.

Remember when I said sometimes you have to switch hats or eye-glasses when using a particular technique? This is one of those times.

This technique has been badly translated, and I can see where people get confused. It is nothing more than a generic, guesstimate, rough-guide technique for longevity.....since there's no point in wasting time casting dozens of charts for someone who isn't going to live.

You want to look at the Moon's position at three select points:

1] the 3rd Day (actually Day 4 On Earth)
2] the 7th Day (Day 8 On Earth)
3] the 40th Day (Day 41 On Earth).

This has nothing to do with being Feral, or VOC or anything else. It is a strict focus on what the Moon is doing, to get a very general non-specific idea of what the Native's life will be like, as each day represents an equal number of years in the Native's life.

Moon on the Descendant is bad, except here, Moon is in an applying trine to a very strong and fortunate Saturn who receives Moon by Domicile.

On Day 4 (3rd Day) Moon is in Pisces, that's actually the 8th Sign and even though the 8th House is evil, what we're interested in here is that it is a Succeedent House, and then by Sign Moon trines Ascendant Ruler Sun. Yes, both Malefics are in square by Sign, but then so are both Benefics and then Mercury in the 11th in Gemini not Combust and moving from a Malefic to a Benefic is good, so we judge the Native's first 3 years as okay.

On Day 8 (7th Day) Moon in Taurus (Exalted), in Sign Aversion to everyone but Sun (sextile) and a Sign square to Ascendant, alles klar for the next 7 years of the Native's life.

On Day 41 (40th Day) Moon is in Leo, no problems there.

Again, this is a very generic technique. What we are actually looking for is the Moon landing Cadent, meaning being in the 3rd, 9th, 6th or 12th, and either being with a Malefic, or being attacked by Malefics (especially from the opposition) with no relief from Benefics. Moon in 4th or 7th and in opposition/square Malefics (even more so if Moon is in Sign of Detriment or Fall for the Malefics). For example, suppose Saturn was alone in the 12th and Moon landed there and the Benefics were in aversion to the 12th, and then if not Sun in aversion, then Sun in square or opposition to Moon, then we have a problem. That whatever period of life that represents for the Native will be very negative and bad, and being in the 12th, that will most likely manifest itself through illnesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Aha, see, that's what was I was talking about. The texts don't make it clear, and I didn't help much, but it's actually Transiting Moon.

Remember that Age Rulers shift, so Moon rules the first 4 years, then passes the baton to Mercury, then Venus, Sun and so on through the end of life.

The theory behind that revolves (no pun intended) on the Moon being the Age Ruler for infants/toddlers. The specific days selected for viewing are based largely on biology and medicine.

Then, as now, if the infant isn't feeding by the 3rd Day, there's a medical issue. By the 7th Day, the infant should be in a regular cycle of feeding and sleeping and feeding and sleeping....ad infinitum...and if not, then a medical issue. Somewhere around Day 40, the infant's eyes should have adjusted from everything-is-one-gigantic-blurry-mess to there's-lots-and-lots of-blurry-fuzzy-things-and-some-are-shiny...meaning the infant should be grabbing/reaching for things, and reacting to stimuli such as light, movement and sound. If not, then there's a potential problem.

Okay, so we're looking at the exact Longitude of Transiting Moon on the 3rd Day (Day 4 of Infant's Life), the 7th Day (Day 8) and the 40th Day (Day 41) against the Natal Chart.

It isn't so much what we want to see, rather it's what we don't want to see on those 3 select days. We don't want to see Moon joined with Mars and/or Saturn in Cancer in a Cadent Sign. We don't want to see Moon Combust in a Cadent Sign --- although Cazimi Moon would be good. We don't want to see Moon in a Cadent Sign with Mars/Saturn, or in square/opposition to Mars/Saturn, and if that is the case, then we would want to see Jupiter, Venus or Sun in trine with Moon by Sign, or Jupiter/Venus square by Sign. We don't want to see Moon in a Cadent Sign and besieged by Malefics.

Again, this is a very generic technique to estimate the health of the Native.

I should point out that people failing to understand these concepts simply assumed that 1 Day = 1 Year of the Native's life, and then applied that to a new technique called Secondary Progressions. Anyone wondering why Secondary Progressions don't work, now you know why.

I'll try to kill 50 birds with one small pebble here.

If anyone intends to buy classical music, listen to a sample of it first, before buying. Musical works are subject to interpretation, and not every conductor of every symphony is sane. Nowhere is that more true than with Carl Orff's Cantiones Profanes --- the Profane Songs -- aka Carmina Burana.

Granted, music is highly subjective, but a recording that everyone may enjoy is the Philadelphia Symphony with the Rutger's University Choir...and I mention that since that is the recording most commonly used in film scores...and so probably the version you're all most familiar with...and you'd be gravely disappointed to spend money and not hear what you thought you heard.

The opening lines in the score are these...

O Fortuna
velut luna
statu variabilis,
semper crescis
aut decrescis;
vita detestabilis
nunc obdurat
et tunc curat
ludo mentis aciem,
egestatem,
potestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem.

That's Latin, and Holden would translate it like this...

O Fortune,
like moon
you change states,
ever waxing
and waning;
hateful life
first oppresses
and then soothes
as fancy takes it;
poverty
and power
it melts them like ice.

Dykes would translate it as such...

Fortune!
Like the Moon
[constantly] changing phases,
always increasing [in light]
or decreasing [in light];
Detesting life!
First oppressing [life]
then soothing...
and [all] on a whim;
Melting poverty
and power
as though
they were [made of] ice.

Verbatim translations may be technically and grammatically correct, and Academicians might fawn and drool over them, but they are not linguistically correct: Ma-duc acasa...Holden = Me take at home; Dykes = I'm going home.

When purchasing texts, people might want to bear that in mind.

Anyway, regarding the significations of the Planets, the Moon's primary signification first and foremost is Change.....or Instability.

How do you know which is which?

Apply the Simple Rule: "Planet, Sign, House, always."

The Planet is Moon; Moon will either be domiciled (in Cancer or Exalted in Taurus), exiled (in Capricorn or in Fall in Scorpio) or Peregrine; and Moon will be Angular, Succeedent or Cadent.

Cadent Signs/Houses are falling away from the Angles: 12th is being pushed over the hill by the Ascendant, not the MC. The MC has pushed the 9th Sign/House over. The 7th has pushed away the 6th, and the 4th Sign/House has forced the 3rd Sign/House over the cliff.

So Cadent Houses signify things that have ended or changed, and Moon in a Cadent House intensifies that, since Moon is about Change, or Instability.

That does not mean other Planets cannot suggest Change, they can, but unlike the other Planets, Moon indicates very rapid change....like the kind of change you'd see in an infant, right?

So, then, what would a Cadent distressed Moon on one of those 3 days signify? It signifies instability for the worse, while a Cadent Moon in good condition indicates positive change for the better.

Likewise, Succeedent Moons indicate a continuation of things, while an Angular Moon suggests starting something new, a new beginning or or something like that.

Why does Moon Joy in the 3rd House? Because it is Below Earth and Cadent and represents Change/Instability. Moon in 3rd increases the power of the Moon to act, but doesn't alter it's condition in the House, and since the 3rd Sign/House is Cadent to the 4th Sign/House and the 4th Sign/House is opposite the 10th House, well, there you go.

Since the Ascendant tells us about the Native, what would you say about Cancer-rising Moon in 3rd? That would be a Virgo Moon. Mercury rules Virgo. Are Mercury and Moon Planetary Friends? No, they are Planetary Enemies.

While I'm on the subject of Ascendants and Joys, Ascendant Ruler in the 6th Sign/House is what? A slave for the most part....literally...except when the Ascendant Ruler is also domiciled in the 6th Sign/House, or when Aries rises and Mars is rejoicing in the 6th Sign/House.

Taurus-rising with a 6th House Libra Venus. What is that?

6th House is what? Work? No, people, wrong answer. The 6th House is Service.

Venus signifies what? Love? No, people, sorry, wrong answer. Venus signifies the love of people....the love of Humanity.

So...then....Taurus-rising 6th House Libra Venus is service-oriented to Humanity.....I'm guessing people have a real difficult time figuring out the 10th House Aquarius thing.....and the meaning of "trine"....and whirled peas.

Mars signifies "things Martial."

Scorpio-rising 6th House Aries Mars is going to be protecting/defending Taurus-rising 6th House Libra Venus, so that Venus can perform her vital humanitarian mission, whatever that might be.

And why would Mars do that? I don't know....."trine" anyone? How about Triplicity? If Aries is the 6th Sign, then what Sign is the 10th? Leo.

And who rules Leo?

Sun.

And amongst it's significations is power, authority and government.

What then can we say about Cancer-rising 6th House Sagittarius Jupiter?

Jupiter doesn't rule Cancer. Okay, very good, but Cancer is one of the domiciles of Jupiter, since Jupiter is Exalted in Cancer.

Libra-rising, 6th Sign/House Pisces Venus is going to be different, since Cancer is the 10th Sign (that's the trine thing again).

Just thought I'd mention that since people struggle delineating Vocation. Stupid nonsense on the internet doesn't help; people make it harder than it must be ignoring the meanings of Planets; the texts really aren't all that great; and then let's face it, most of the example charts floating around are for politicians, musicians, entertainers, athletes and such, and not for truck drivers, ditch diggers, clerks, warehouse workers, firemen, managers, fast-food workers, or the wipers of other people's bottoms.

I hope that clarifies things a wee bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Holy cow, no wonder you're confused.

15K;14P. The Third, Seventh, and Fortieth Days of the Moon.

The third, seventh, and fortieth days of the moon as follows: assume the moon is in Scorpio 7*; the third day will be in Sagittarius 7*. [It is necessary to investigate the day in this way. Sagittarius 7* has become the 3rd day.] In the nativity chart the seventh will be found in square, at Aquarius 7*. The fortieth will be at Taurus 7*. (Some add 160* to the moon's position at birth and count off this amount from the moon's sign. Others add to the moon's position at birth <its positions> on the third and seventh and fortieth days, then after calculating, they interpret the moon at those places.)


That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It looks like he's copying it from something, but he doesn't understand it.

From 7 Scorpio to 7 Sagittarius, all he's done is add 30 to the Moon's original Longitude, or 10 per day. The Moon averages 1312' per day, getting to just over 15 but never slower than 1148' per day, so what he's doing isn't based on Moon's speed or a Transiting Moon.


That becomes clearer when he says on the 7th Day the Moon is in square at 7 Aquarius, and then again the 40th Day at 7 Taurus.

I thought maybe he was using Profections, but that doesn't work either. You can profect by month, moving one Sign for each month. You can also profect daily at 1 Sign every 2 and a half days or so.


It's a bit of a stretch to think he's profecting the Moon daily. Rounding 2.5 days up to 3 days, yes that would be 1 Sign. It falls apart there, since he'd be adding 1 Sign for every 2 days to get to a square position.

40 Days would be 16 Signs @ 2.5 Days per Sign, but that would put Daily Profected Moon in Pisces, not Taurus. Even rounding to 3, that would make 13 Signs. Rounding down to 2 Days per Sign gives 20 Signs, and in no case do you end up at Taurus.


Moon is specifically profected to examine Health matters. In fact, I believe it was Valens who said that (not to mention that Mars/Moon Primary Directions are very negative, especially for health and life).

Anyway, the way Valens explains it makes no sense to me, not to mention it would be demonstrably wrong. For me, adding 30 puts Moon in the 6th Aries 6th House with enemy Mars, which isn't even remotely descriptive of my first 3 years on Earth (but Transiting Moon exalted in Taurus would be).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Delphic Oracle is correct (for the 3rd day). They (the ancients) counted the day of birth as one just as they did with all levels of profections and as Valens does with his Quarters of the Moon technique. It looks like Tsmall has incorrectly posted the natal chart as the 3rd day of the Moon chart, as Jupiter ASC has suggested.

As for Valens quote, it is quite clear he is just illustarting an idealised version of the technique in which the Moon is moving 15 degrees a day. This is, in part, so we understand that the day of birth is one, and therefore the 3rd day is two calendar days and not three. If we write his example out by hand, we see that the 2nd calendar day falls at 7 Sagittarius, the 6th calendar day at 7 Aquarius. The comment about 7 Taurus being the 40th day seems to be a different idea. In the charts I have looked at, the 40th day Moon (39th calendar day as we would count it in our time) falls out at the sign opposed to the natal Moon though sometimes in a diffierent sign if the natal Moon is close to a sign boundary. I am also not sure we are to take only the transiting Moon since Valens says that someone with a malefic or Mercury with the 40th day Moon suffers a violent death, this would mean that everyone with the Moon opposed to a malefic at birth will have an indication of a violent death. I feel we may have to use the whole chart but then this brings up the problem of clock time and what time do these new charts begin at. I would suggest that they be converted into a more natural time system and set for the 3rd, 7th and 40th day of this time rather than modern clock time.

EDIT: sorry I forgot to mention the 160 degree figure given by Valens, if we multiply 13.2 degrees (Moon's mean motion according to a period of 27.3 days)by 39 (40th day), we get 515 (360 + 155 degrees), hence Valens saying some just add 160 degrees to the Moon's natal position.

Also, ignore what I said above about the opposition, DO has been programmed correctly for the 3rd day but not the 7th or 40th for some reason
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yep, sorry, I've been such a dullard. Reading Valens again, he proposes that you use the ideal of the adjacent sign/square sign/opposition sign respectively. He then says that others use the actual 3rd, 7th and 40th days of the Moon. It is the old ideal vs. actual debate! If you use the actual, obviously you would count the day of birth as "one" as there was no zero in ancient mathematics and every other time-lord system counts the beginning point as one and not zero.

I asked Curtis Manwarring about the DO calculation and he said he wanted it to follow the Valens ideal version of adjacent/square/opposition and the only way to do this was to count 2 calendar days/7 calendar days/40 calendar days hence the seemingly mixed together methods of ancient and modern counting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post

I can't believe you people made me go read Valens.

My text is formatted differently, so I don't have corresponding page numbers, but this is what Valens says....

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

Bearing that in mind...

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http://www.babycenter.com/404_whats-colostrum_8896.bc

Colostrum is extremely easy to digest, and is therefore the perfect first food for your baby. It is low in volume (measurable in teaspoons rather than ounces), but high in concentrated nutrition for the newborn. Colostrum has a laxative effect on the baby, helping him pass his early stools, which aids in the excretion of excess bilirubin and helps prevent jaundice. When your baby is breastfed early and often, your breasts will begin producing mature milk around the third or fourth day after birth.

Colostrum has an especially important role to play in the baby's gastrointestinal tract. A newborn's intestines are very permeable. Colostrum seals the holes by "painting" the gastrointestinal tract with a barrier which mostly prevents foreign substances from penetrating and possibly sensitizing a baby to foods the mother has eaten.
Colostrum also contains high concentrations of leukocytes, protective white cells which can destroy disease-causing bacteria and viruses.

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Infant Stomach Capacity

Colostrum is high in carbohydrates, high in protein, high in antibodies, and low in fat (as human newborns may find fat difficult to digest). Newborns have very small digestive systems, and colostrum delivers its nutrients in a very concentrated low-volume form.

It has a mild laxative effect, encouraging the passing of the baby's first stool, which is called meconium.

This clears excess bilirubin, a waste product of dead red blood cells which is produced in large quantities at birth due to blood volume reduction, from the infant's body and helps prevent jaundice.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/colostrum.htm

Okay, let's put this together.

Valens is copying from older sources (like Dorotheus --although Dorotheus is not that much older).

Romans counted differently than other contemporary cultures did.


3 Days is 3 Days. Add 3 to birth date eg July 10 + 3 = July 13; May 26 + 3 = May 29 and so on.

This is medical health only, as it relates to infant/mother's health and not about the Native's misery or fortune in life or anything else....once again...

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

...at least he got that part right.

So....(I called my mother to confirm this -- yes, she likes Astrology)....I have Pitted Mars in the 6th.

Mars is Below Earth, indicating something internal rather than something external (Above Earth means external).

Mars rules liver.

6th House/Sign signifies intestines, liver and kidneys.

I was born with jaundice, caused by liver things.

Doctor told my mother it would go away after a couple of days of breast-feeding, as the aforementioned medical stuff explains much better than I could.

True or False? False. If the doctor practiced Astrology, he wouldn't have been so stupid. Direct Natal Moon by Transit three days ahead and we find Transiting Moon in the 6th House at 20 Aries joining Mars at 28 Aries.

That is a medical issue; specifically to wit, my mother was unable to produce either colustrum or milk, and therefore I had to go back to the doctor, and I won't share what happened next.

Once again, 6th House is intestines, liver and kidneys, Mars is liver, and here's Transiting Moon joining Mars, not to mention Natal Moon was in the 5th House which is stomach and liver.

Next up.....

Jose Feliciano
Sep 10 1945, 10:00 am, +3:00
Lares Puerto Rico 18N18' 066W53'

Natal Moon at 1 Scorpio in 1st House (but 2nd Sign).

Directed Moon by Transit on day 3 which is September 13, and we find Directed Transiting Moon at...

...7 Sagittarius....which is an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.

Directed Transiting Moon square Mercury and Sun in Virgo.

Anyone think Jose Feliciano was blind? Uh, he was blind.

He's still blind.

Let's see.....Moon and Mars are Planetary Enemies......but we knew that....Moon and Mercury are Planetary Enemies and Moon and Sun are Planetary Enemies....you think Mercury enjoys being squared by Enemy Moon from Sagittarius, a Sign that Mercury hates?

On Day 7, Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Capricorn, which is not only Moon's Fall, it is a Pitted Degree, and it is....an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.....blind...pretty obvious.

On Day 40, Directed Transiting Moon comes to 17 Aries which is the 6th House but 7th Sign, and Dispositor Natal Mars is at 1 Cancer.

Note that human gestation is like 39-40 weeks.

One more....

Olive Brasno Oct 8 1914, 3:00 am, +5:00
Old Bridge New Jersey

40N24'53'' 074W21'57''

On Day 7, the Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Leo in the 12th House/Sign which is a Pitted Degree....and Azieme.

Brasno was a dwarf (she was not a Munchkin in the Wizard of Oz, but her husband was).

Note that Natal Venus is also Azieme.

Anyway, I think this technique is designed solely for the purpose of examining the health of the infant and mother. Note that it is rare, but not unusual for women to hemorrhage in the few days after giving birth. I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the original technique, the position(s) of Transiting Moon would also be compared against the mother's Natal Chart.
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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Dorotheus (writing before Valens) says only to look at the Sign the Moon enters on the 3rd Day after birth. He briefly explains the purpose is to know the fortune or misery of the Native's upbringing.

In these texts, there are many things that are implied, inferred, presumed, assumed or understood to be, even though they are not explicitly detailed.

In other words, even though the text does not explicitly state that you are to look at a Planet's Sect, Phase, House Position, Degree (for Azieme, Bright, Pitted etc), Speed/Direction, Bound, Aspects and so on, it's understood that those things should always be done.


As best as I can tell, I don't see where Dorotheus mentions the 7th or 40th Days, so it would seem Valens is quoting someone else, and that only serves to cloud the issue more.

Uh, I should probably say I've never used this technique before.

tsmall kept mentioning it, and I know I've come across it before, I just couldn't remember where, until I checked out Dorotheus.

I am convinced more than ever that this is a predictive technique to identify potential health issues with infant and mother.

You follow?

You can't cast a Solar Return, since the infant was just born. The profected Ascendant is still in the Natal Ascendant, so no joy there. And Primary Directions? To what? It's only been a few days.

So....then...how do you make predictions about the infant?

Transits are a total fail and do not work.......unless the Planet is activated.

Which Planets would be activated here?

The Moon which is the Age Ruler through age 4 and the Ascendant Ruler
.

Hold that thought for a second...

When an infant is born, what country has the time and money to spend running hundreds of ridiculous diagnostic tests?

None.

And infants are not born with neon lights advertising their medical issues.

It will be several weeks to several months, perhaps even more than a year, before a mother discovers her child is mute, or deaf or blind (and no it doesn't mean she's a bad mother).

An infant dwarf looks like a normal infant. Dwarfism has several distinct causes: hereditary; genetic but not hereditary; and glandular (doesn't Venus rule the Thymus Gland and others? -- an Azieme Venus?).

I believe it is the hereditary and genetic (non-hereditary) conditions that show the infant growing as normal....until a certain age at which time the child stops physically growing, but continues to progress in all other ways.

Seriously, I was blown away when looking at a number of charts.

Jose Feliciano was born blind, but no one knew that for several months, and what are the odds that Transiting Moon twice ends up in Azieme Degrees in two different Signs? Lloyd's of London wouldn't even touch that.

Every chart I pulled up was the same. Wadlaw, the giant, he was nearly 9 feet tall (3 meters) when he died. His Moon ends up on the 40th day in the 12th Sign/House at 0 Capricorn, in a Pitted Degree and in partile square to a Retrograde Natal Mars at 0 Libra. And Natal Saturn....Transiting Moon's Dispositor is in Leo and Retrograde and in the 6th House but 7th Sign, and Moon rules the Natal 6th Sign/House. Natal Venus is Retrograde in Aquarius applying to the opposition of Retrograde Saturn in Leo.

Not every infant has medical issues, but for those that do/did, it's really obvious.

I did not have enough information on mothers to make an evaluation of that, but I'd be inclined to believe that a Scorpio 10th Sign and Transiting Moon in square/opposition or joined to Natal Mars might indicate medical issues for mother. Same with Mars in the 10th and Transiting Moon in square/opposition or joined, or Transiting Moon landing in the 10th and so on. There are of course several different combinations of Planets, Signs and Houses that could indicate the same thing.


That could be anything from fevers to being dropped on your head as an infant or vision problems, up to and including blindness. Could be other things as well.

"Lame" Degrees indicate some kind of congenital birth defect. The defect may not be visible or so obvious, and it may not manifest itself until later in life.

For example, you'll often read about athletes at the high school or university level that "suddenly" collapse and die.

The autopsies often reveal minor defects in the heart, particularly in the heart valves, ventricles or the the walls of the major arteries that carry blood to or from the heart.

Even through medical diagnostic testing, they cannot or would not be discovered, but I'd submit to you that a competent astrologer could discover those, if not through Azieme Degrees in the Natal Chart or using the days of the Moon, then through a thorough delineation of the 6th and 12th Houses.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Yes, I recommend the idealized, although as far as I am aware the real calculation is more common, and can be seen in various surviving charts, such as the one of a Roman emperor in Antiochus. The real calculation can sometimes put the Moon in the same sign on the third day, which does not make sense to me conceptually if you are using whole sign aspects. I wonder which one is the original, since considerations by degree in the Hellenistic sources are relatively uncommon, often due to necessity (sign ephemerides).

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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Sects, Domiciles, Exaltations, Winds, Twelve Places, Configurations, Lots, Attendance, Dodekatemoria, Planetary Strength

Sun, Jupiter and Saturn rejoice by day, Moon, Venus and Mars rejoice by night, while Mercury rejoices by day and by night, for it belongs to the diurnal sect by day, and to the nocturnal sect by night.
So let's say one has a night chart with Jupiter in the upper hemisphere. Is Jupiter happy there, according to this formula? Or does it depend on whether it is a night or day chart? Or is Jupiter always happiest in the upper hemisphere, as far as rejoicing by day is concerned, irregardless of whether it is a night or day chart?

Thanks!
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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So let's say one has a night chart with Jupiter in the upper hemisphere. Is Jupiter happy there, according to this formula? Or does it depend on whether it is a night or day chart? Or is Jupiter always happiest in the upper hemisphere, as far as rejoicing by day is concerned, irregardless of whether it is a night or day chart?

Thanks!
You got something wrong, as the Hellenistic astrologers are consistent in saying that Jupiter in a night chart is better under the horizon than above the horizon (all other factors aside, such as the exact place). The reverse happens by day. Basically the diurnal planets rejoice in the hemicycle where the Sun is, the opposite with the nocturnal (this is my explanation for their reversal). They don't say how strong is this rejoicing exactly, but it does appear to be a secondary factor compared to the primary sect condition. Only the medieval astrologers started to consider them equal.

The diurnal sect rejoices above the horizon by day, but below the horizon by night. The nocturnal sect rejoices above the horizon by night, but below the horizon by day. It can be a bit confusing at the beginning, I remember teaching someone completely new to astrology, and I eventually decided to skip all those minor considerations. It needs a bit of practice until it becomes natural, although I can see someone claiming that they are convoluted or unimportant. I consider the gender and horizon as equal considerations, each five times weaker than the primary consideration.

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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Aside from some disagreement on which signs are diurnal or nocturnal - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...10206&start=15 check the last post for all possibilites, the Hellenistic astrologers also did not agree on how to decide the sect of Mercury. The michigan papyrus (1) states that Mercury is diurnal by day and nocturnal by night (I prefer this one), Valens (2) says that the bound of Mercury decides sect (presumably Venus or Mars makes it nocturnal, while in the bound of Jupiter or Saturn makes it diurnal). Porphyry and Ptolemy had a different theorem (3), Mercury is nocturnal when evening rising, and diurnal when morning rising.

(1) This one seems most reasonable to me, since the day is given to the Sun, and the night to the Moon. Mercury becomes more cold and moistening by night under the horizon, and it becomes more accustomed to the heat and dryness of the day.
(2) This one may have come from the Egyptians and their focus on the bounds. On this account, it may represent the oldest tradition. It is not clear to me what sect it belongs to when it is in its own term. ''Mercury rejoices according to the sect of the houseruler in whose terms the star is located.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
(3) This one has similar drawback in my view, since Mercury is often under the beams, neither rising or setting, what is its sect in that case?

Mercury is alternating between moist and dry, the dryness on account of its zodiacal proximity to the Sun, the moistening on account of its proximity to the Earth, Moon and Venus, and their moist exhalations in Aristotelean cosmology. Mercury is in the second zone from Earth.

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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Links To Other Threads In This Series


INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part One - Zodiac
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121654

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Two -Seven Stars
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121671


INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Four - Nativities
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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The diurnal sect rejoices above the horizon by day, but below the horizon by night. The nocturnal sect rejoices above the horizon by night, but below the horizon by day. It can be a bit confusing at the beginning,.
Omg, TELL me about it! I'm going to print up your entire comment and repeat it ten times in front of the mirror until it finally penetrates my THICK HEAD !!!

Many thanks for this clear explanation!
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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Omg, TELL me about it! I'm going to print up your entire comment and repeat it ten times in front of the mirror until it finally penetrates my THICK HEAD !!!

Many thanks for this clear explanation!
The Sun rules day on account of its heating, slightly drying, active and light functions, and clearly because it makes day itself ''the whole circle <the zodiac> has been entrusted to the Sun''. The Moon rules night on account of its moistening, nurturing, and passive influences (''gift of rest'', fresh air, life-breath). It is slightly heating on account of reflecting the light of the Sun, so it is important to understand that the Lights have ''cosmic sympathy and harmony'' as Valens says, rather than contrariety as some suppose.

Jupiter is productive of hot and fecund winds, thus it joins the sect of the Sun. Saturn is productive of cold, and its cruel power is broken by day and made temperate. Venus is productive of moisture and some heat, thus it joins the sect of the Moon. Mars is productive of destructive heat and drying winds, and its cruel power is broken by night and made temperate. Thus, Jupiter and Saturn are guardians of the Sun, while Venus and Mars are guardians of the Moon. Mercury is guardian of both (based on which quality he became guide of the souls in the afterlife in various religions).

Obviously, the spear-bearers of the Sun rejoice above the horizon (the word comes from ὁρίζων κύκλος - separating circle which divides the two hemispheres) with it, but when the Sun is contrary to the ruling sect and below the horizon, it would naturally be better for the planets to be in the underworld, for the light of the Sun does not reach the upper hemisphere at that time of the day.

Contrarily, the spear-bearers of the Moon rejoice away from the day hemisphere, the rays of Mars being restrained and made slightly more benefic (through temperate admixture) when shining from the night hemisphere, while those of the Moon and Venus being reinforced. As Manilius says, some astrologers believed the nocturnal planets rejoice in feminine signs ''in the safe cover of darkness''. The opposite happens when they are above the horizon by day, for the same reason.

Objection: This theorem produces an asymmetry - the Sun is always rejoicing, while the Moon is not, Venus is never culminating and rejoicing, Mercury is often rejoicing by day, but not by night.
Answer: Those ''asymmetries'' are naturally occurring based on other considerations like the cosmic rulership of the Sun or the orbits of Venus and Mercury. It would be a mistake not to take into account the natural natures or mixtures of the stars, however different they are (as discussed in the previous parts). For although Venus is never culminating by night, or Jupiter exalted in a diurnal sign, those considerations are not meant to be the same for all the stars, on account of their different natures and affinities.

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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

By supplying so many considerations, let no one think I am trying to obfuscate. If one takes more considerations into account, the accuracy and predictive force will be more certain ''It were preferable for <the astrologer> to cast the horoscope and then to begin to interpret it with sober reasoning, taking into account all the relative positions and the angles, not with a multitude of words, but with brevity leading to the truth'' - Valens, Riley translation.



This is the chart of J. Paul Getty. Abstracting from all considerations, except for eminence and wealth, we could see that this nativity is greatly fortunate. First, the Lightbringer is rising and in masculine royal image, its ruler and bound (the bow is imperious) ruler (the Master of the Nativity) and triplicity rulers are all angular and in sect, the Sun also angular within 15 degrees, while Jupiter and Saturn (ruler of II, adjacent to its exaltation) within 7 degrees. The Sun and Jupiter are also configured through like-engirding tetragon, Jupiter and Saturn (also direct in motion) through like-empowered diameter. Valens says the same thing:

''But if these stars happen to be configured properly, in their own sects, they are actively positive. As a result, these stars are not to be considered malefics in all cases; they can be bestowers of good. Particularly if Saturn (for day births) has a favorable relationship with the houseruler and has Jupiter and the sun in aspect, it then makes men wealthy, famous, profiting from legacies, lords of estates and slaves, guardians and supervisors of others' affairs.''

''Let the opposition of Saturn and Jupiter be considered productive and beneficial, particularly when these stars are in their own signs, provided that this configuration is not harmed by another afflicting influence.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Furthermore, the Moon favorably situated with Venus (the ruler of the preceding Full Moon) in its own domicile and bound, and the days of the Moon have only benefic aspects (except for the third day being inferior square with Mars), and also the node is configured with benefic. The effects of the benefics are even more vigorous on account of being angular from the Lights. If one examines the II, IV and VIII, all which indicate finances or property (in the Hellenistic tradition), he will see the same thing, relative to the eminence signified by the chart <which sets out the foundation>.

Contrasting example from Dorotheus: ''Gemini Rising, Saturn with Scorpio, Jupiter with Taurus, Mars with Scorpio, Sun with Leo, Venus with Leo, Mercury with Virgo, Moon with Scorpio, Ascending Node with Virgo, preceding New Moon with Leo.'' The nativity was needy, poor, miserable, not finding the daily bread because the ruler of Fortune, the Lights and the Rulers of the Moon were all inoperative. Furthermore, the Moon was depressed, servile sign <by nature but also by pre-ascending the west> with malefics, and its days show the same thing.

Most nativities would of course be somewhere in between. Here is an example I had a hand in:
Hour-Marker at 27 Libra, Saturn at 3 Capricorn, Jupiter at 5 Capricorn, Mars at 11 Gemini, Sun at 23 Aquarius, Venus at 2 Aries, Mercury at 1 Aquarius, Moon at 26 Libra, Ascending Node at 12 Leo, preceding Full Moon at 18 Leo. The nativity was of moderate fortune.

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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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..........one of the Hellenistic terms for the midheaven/tenth sign is ''κορυφή'' which can mean top of head, crown, mountain peak. If you think about it symbolically, the ruler of Aries, Mars aims to be the koryphaios, as the ''leader of the choir'', even though the Sun is best fitted for the job, being exalted there. The heart needs to control the impetuous mind.
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Jupiter does signify governorship and friendships with distinguished people, yes. Usually, Jupiter and Mars together are delineated positively by the astrologers. Don't forget that Jupiter rules Aries by triplicity.
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When I think about Virgo I get the fertility of the earth mother. An expectant woman actually isn't a bad image.
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Um, actually it is in my opinion. The emphasis in the tradition is on the virgin part, on sexual abstinence, rather than sexual readiness, that is why it is barren for example. It is also the depression of Venus.
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How are you going to tackle Aquarius?
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Some Hellenistic texts state that Ganymede hangs from his cloak, but generally he is presented as athletic, very beautiful in figure and in the face, eyes and also with delicate manners.
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Since when does sag have wings?
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Sag doesn't have wings
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It doesn't have in your view.
https://in-the-sky.org/images/conste...on_SGR_001.png - some see a cloak, the Egyptians saw wings.
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In the earlier Hellenistic tradition, detriment is rarely mentioned as an affliction, but in the renaissance tradition, it is somehow worse than fall.
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The Moon has an additional feature because of the obvious and important phases. So if you have the Moon Exalted in Taurus, how do you factor in the phases?
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Have you noticed that it is always horned relative to the cosmic exaltation of the Sun? Ptolemy and Valens also mention of this phase (they say the Moon begins to cosmically wane in Scorpio). Ptolemy even extended this phase to the domiciles, getting the dignity of ''proper face''. But you would not know that was an important rationale.
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Do you mean what Moon in Gemini signifies? Or do you mean planetary strength - according to my calculations - it is - 2 in the Northern Hemisphere and + 2 in the Southern, being at the corresponding solstice, and it is - 1 due to being in masculine sign. All other considerations are based on the placement of the rulers, which I consider more important than the aforementioned - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676

By itself, the domicile ruler - Mercury is neutral.


If you meant what Moon in Gemini signifies, I consider the Moon as important factor to take into account for appearance, life, fortune etc. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121654
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677

I don't consider detriment and peregrine. In the Hellenistic tradition, the first is rarely mentioned, the latter is non-existant.
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The Sun's placement determines whether the Moon is waxing or waning.
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Yes, and relative to the exaltation of the Sun, when in Taurus, it begins to wax. If you think about the degrees, the Moon begins to wax at the 3rd degree, since the Sun is exalted at the 19th. It is really simple.
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Sigmund Freud, two exalted Lights in the west with no malefic aspects.
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Actually I just noticed that Freud's Lot of Accusation falls in the 4th Capricorn. Interesting in relation to his native country, health problem and accusations from the shock nature of 4th and Saturn related topics at the time. Saturn in Gemini square Mars further elucidates the accusations he got from society because of his writings. Nevertheless, we have a greatly fortunate nativity mostly because of the mentioned factors in the previous post.
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Mars rules over marriage and intercourse in the Hellenistic tradition. The Midheaven also signified marriage. Action gets you ewe as in sexual selection, even in the modern world. The description of Aries by National Geographic perfectly encapsulates those life wisdoms.
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Here's a question: Why does the glyph for Merc have horns?
Makes it look like Merc's a hornier version of Venus!
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Read Monas Hieroglyphica, it explains it in common language.
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It goes against the Greco-Roman version that Hermes/Mercury was the son of Zeus/Jupiter and one of the Pleiades (Maia). Not, as this would have it, the son of the Sun and Moon. Not especially convincing. Thanks though!
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It was found through experience that Mercury is equally diurnal and nocturnal, being diurnal by day, and being nocturnal by night. It is also alternating between moist and dry, since it is close to Earth, yet not wandering too off from the Sun. Perhaps it seems too rational to be associated with the Moon, but its irrational part has to do with it controlling foreknowledge, magic, athletics, versatility as well as communication from the upper spheres to the lower spheres, it has common with the Moon in those areas, especially since they are both allotted the two lowest spheres, and through syncretism they become Hermes - Thoth.
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The glyph for Taurus seems like the exaltation of the Moon. If that is so, then it follows that the glyph of Mercury is related to these matters.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

OPPOSITE OF EXALTATION
IS
DEPRESSION

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

The opposite of the exaltation is depression. The Greek hypsoma imply literal latitude. Pliny and Valens treat those as literal latitude. Ptolemy appears to be the first source with a completely seasonal rationale, perhaps he was aware of some technical flaw in the epicyclic theory.

Another fragment from the Michigan papyrus:
''Still other ethereal constellations revolve in their own circles. The Sun is in apogee in Gemini; Venus is in perigee in Pisces and in apogee in Virgo; Jupiter is in apogee in Cancer and in perigee in Capricorn'' - see Michigan Papyri, Vol III, Papyri in the University of Michigan Collection, Miscellaneous Papyri, Ed. John Garret Winter, University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor, MI, 1936. Translation by F.E. Robbins.

Note that there is some inconsistency with the epicyclic theory since the Sun has apogee in Gemini (and is changing but they did not know about that until the Middle Ages) from a geocentric perspective. Perhaps the Sun and the Moon exaltations are seasonal (in the Babylonian zodiac) while the others are related to stations, and as such were then integrated into the epicyclic theories by the Greeks.

If the other five planets exaltations are related to epicyclic perigree and apogee, they were not meant to be used in a tropical zodiac due to how revolutions work (they do not have precession as noted by Ptolemy in Almagest 9.6).
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Saturn - Libra 21
Jupiter - Cancer 15
Mars - Capricorn 28
Sun - Aries 19
Venus - Pisces 27
Mercury - Virgo 15
Moon - Taurus 3

The Ram exalts the Sun for it is the Midheaven of the Universe, royal, heating and drying because of Mars and the zenith, quadrupedal, running, masculine, ovecoming Cancer and configured through superior trigon with Leo - its own domicile. The 19th degree is especially exalting because of the recurrence years and the hind foot.

The Bull exalts the Moon for it is the Post-Ascension of the Midheaven, notable, slightly heating and moist because of Venus and the Good Daimon, horned in appearance, feminine, overcoming Leo and configured through superior hexagon with Cancer - its own domicile. The 3rd degree is especially exalting because of the appearance phase and the Pleiades.

The Scales exalt Saturn for they are the Anti-Midheaven of the Universe, changeable, cooling and death-bringing because of the subterranean, opposing the Sun, superior to Capricorn and configured through superior trigon with Aquarius - its own domicile. The 21st degree is especially exalting because of Alpha Librae.

The Crab exalts Jupiter for it is the Hour-Marker of the Universe, notable, airy and life-bringing because of the Moon and the rising, watery, superior to Libra and Scorpio and configured through trigon with Pisces - its own domicile. The 15th degree is especially exalting because of the head.

The Goat-Horned One exalts Mars for it is the Setting of the Universe, changeable, cooling and injuring because of Saturn and the west, opposing Jupiter, superior to Aries and Taurus and configured through hexagon with Scorpio - its own domicile. The 28th degree is especially exalting because of the tail.

The Fishes exalt Venus for they are the Pre-Ascension of the Midheaven, double-bodied, moist and most fertile because of the fish-goddess and the place, submerged, passionate, superior to Gemini and Cancer and configured through hexagon with Taurus - its own domicile. The 27th degree is especially exalting because of the northern fish.

The Maiden exalts Mercury for it is Pre-Ascension of the Anti-Midheaven, nocturnal, domicile of Mercury, eloquent, winged, opposing Venus and the post-ascension of Leo. The 15th degree is especially exalting because of the appearance and Gamma Virginis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Sun is depressed in Libra with obscurity and death.
Moon is depressed in Scorpio with loss of light and death.
Saturn is ''depressed'' in Aries for it afflicts kingship with extremely dry qualities.
Jupiter is depressed in Capricorn with cold and death.
Mars is ''depressed'' in Cancer for it harms life with burning caustic influence.
Venus is depressed in Virgo with infertility and virginity.
Mercury is depressed in Pisces with silence and water.

I will check the degrees later.
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Principles for the exaltations and depressions of the planets:
1. Configuration with Cancer.
- only Cancer, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces, Aries and Taurus are eligible, the rest are rejected

2. Diurnal planets are configured through trigon with their domiciles.
- Sun - Aries
- Saturn - Virgo, Libra or Taurus
- Jupiter - Cancer, Scorpio or Aries

3. Nocturnal planets are configured through hexagon with their domiciles.
- Moon - Virgo or Taurus
- Mars - Virgo or Capricorn
- Venus - Cancer or Pisces

4. Affinity with the places - lights above the horizon, benefics in good places, malefics in bad places.
- Sun - Aries as Mc (action) opposite Ic
- Moon - Taurus as Good Daimon (gifts) opposite Good Fortune
- Saturn - Libra as Ic (death) opposite Mc
- Jupiter - Cancer as Asc (life) opposite Dsc
- Mars - Capricorn as Dsc (injury) opposite Asc

5. Affinity with the images and their domicile rulers - royalty, light, death, life, injury, fertility, eloquence. The best images become certain at this point.
- Sun - Aries is diurnal, royal, quadrupedal and running like Leo, domicile of burning and drying Mars, which has in common with the heating and slightly drying Sun
- Moon - Taurus is nocturnal, notable, horned in appearance, domicile of slightly heating and moistening Venus, same nature as the Moon
- Saturn - Libra is diurnal, common, judicial, economical, domicile of moistening and slightly heating Venus, contrary nature to the malefic, producing temperate admixture
- Jupiter - Cancer is notable, nurturing, domicile of the slightly heating and moistening Moon, producing excellent airy admixture
- Mars - Capricorn is nocturnal, servile, thievish, outrageous, domicile of Saturn, contrary nature to the malefic, producing temperate admixture
- Venus - Pisces is nocturnal, notable, most fertile and entirely submerged, domicile of Jupiter, producing excellent airy admixture
- Mercury - Virgo is nocturnal and post-ascending Leo at the same time, domicile of alternating between moisture and dryness Mercury, here having temperate admixture inclining towards the active and fertile element

6. Degrees cause cosmic appearances, or have connection with fixed stars.
Sun - Aries 19 - recurrence years and the hind foot, Mercury bound
Moon - Taurus 3 - appearance phase and the Pleiades, Venus bound
Saturn - Libra 21 - chains and Alpha Librae, Jupiter bound
Cancer 15 - head and the degrees after the Beehive Cluster, Mercury bound
Mars - Capricorn 28 - tail which is of the nature of Saturn and Jupiter, Mars bound
Venus - Pisces 27 - northern fish which is of the nature of Jupiter and moderately Venus, Mars bound
Mercury - Virgo 15 - evening rising and Gamma Librae, Venus bound

7. Depressions are the opposite degrees of the exaltations because of inherent contrariety.
- Sun is depressed in Libra with obscurity and death. 19th degree due to the chains and the presence of Saturn. Jupiter bound.
- Moon is depressed in Scorpio with loss of light and death. 3th degree due to the waning of the Moon and the claws which cause them. Mars bound.
- Saturn is ''depressed'' in Aries for it afflicts kingship with extremely dry qualities. 21st degree due to the hind foot and the presence of the Sun. Mars bound.
- Jupiter is depressed in Capricorn with cold and death. 15th degree of Capricorn due to the change of body, Venus bound.
- Mars is ''depressed'' in Cancer for it harms life with burning caustic influence. 28th degree due to the pincers. Saturn bound.
- Venus is depressed in Virgo with infertility and virginity. 27th degree due to the feet. Mars bound.
- Mercury is depressed in Pisces with silence and water. 15th degree due to the being in the middle of the sea. Jupiter bound
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

According to Dorotheus and Manetho, Mars being in the sign or bound of Saturn, transiting or distributing to it is actually good, the reverse is bad. It depends on which planet is the transmitter, and which is the receiver (domicile ruler in this case). Inb4 conflict with depression of Saturn and exaltation of Mars.

The planets are stronger in signs closer to their exaltations, especially the ones adjacent, and they are weaker near their depressions. This is naturally resulting from their circular orbits including their epicyclical apogees and perigees, for they are exalted at one degree and one sign, but depressed at the opposite, and gradation of power ensues, as follows.

Exaltation at the degree + 9
Exaltation within 3 + 8
Exaltation within 7 + 7
Exaltation within 15 + 6
Exaltation + 5
Exaltation within two images/adjacent + 2
Exaltation within three images/exalting hemicycle + 1

Depression within 3 - 8
Depression within 7 - 7
Depression within 15 - 6
Depression - 5
Depression within two images/adjacent - 2
Depression within three images/depressing hemicycle - 1

Two signs are neutral, for example Cancer and Capricorn are neither exalting, nor depressing the Sun, they are neutral. Some astrologers like Valens used quadrants from exaltation degrees, others divided them into 24 steps, still others said that the sign succeeding the exaltation is bad
.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations




Dodekatopos


11-24-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
The reverse is also true, overfeeling can lead to underthinking.
Mirror images
I - children of parents, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, husband of wife, parents of children
II - friends of parents, suffering of relatives, parents of friends, property of wife, fortune of children
III - suffering of parents, siblings of relatives, fortune of friends, travel of wife, injury of children
IV - siblings of parents, livelihood of relatives, injury of friends, action of wife, wives of children
V - livelihood of parents, relatives of relatives, wives of friends, friends of wife, property of children
VI - relatives of parents, parents of relatives, property of friends, suffering of wife, travel of children
VII - parents of parents, fortune of relatives, travel of friends, siblings of wife, children of children
VIII - fortune of parents, injury of relatives, children of friends, livelihood of wife, friends of children
IX - injury of parents, wives of relatives, friends of friends, relatives of wife, suffering of children
X - grandchildren of parents, property of relatives, suffering of friends, parents of wife, siblings of children
XI - property of parents, travel of relatives, siblings of friends, fortune of wife, livelihood of children
XII - travel of parents, action of relatives, livelihood of friends, injury of wife, relatives of children

Is it possible to avoid infinite regress of relatives in the odd numbered signs?
Last edited by petosiris; 11-24-2018 at 07:37 PM.

Moderation in moderation leads to more moderation, not extremes actually.

This is why the mean is best virtue in some Eastern philosophies
and according to Aristotle. It is active, not passive
Moderately moderate = extremely moderate
The word you are looking for is immoderate.


11-25-2018, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
The opposite of exaltation (heightened) is depression (low height), but the language being used is in terms of height. The Sun is highest in Aries, and lowest in Libra. It is lower in Leo than Cancer as well, but it has affinity through domicile. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...postcount=5779


The opposite of the exaltation is depression. The Greek hypsoma imply literal latitude. Pliny and Valens treat those as literal latitude. Ptolemy appears to be the first source with a completely seasonal rationale, perhaps he was aware of some technical flaw in the epicyclic theory.

Another fragment from the Michigan papyrus:
''Still other ethereal constellations revolve in their own circles. The Sun is in apogee in Gemini; Venus is in perigee in Pisces and in apogee in Virgo; Jupiter is in apogee in Cancer and in perigee in Capricorn'' - see Michigan Papyri, Vol III, Papyri in the University of Michigan Collection, Miscellaneous Papyri, Ed. John Garret Winter, University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor, MI, 1936. Translation by F.E. Robbins.

Note that there is some inconsistency with the epicyclic theory since the Sun has apogee in Gemini (and is changing but they did not know about that until the Middle Ages) from a geocentric perspective. Perhaps the Sun and the Moon exaltations are seasonal (in the Babylonian zodiac) while the others are related to stations, and as such were then integrated into the epicyclic theories by the Greeks.

If the other five planets exaltations are related to epicyclic perigree and apogee, they were not meant to be used in a tropical zodiac due to how revolutions work (they do not have precession as noted by Ptolemy in Almagest 9.6). Last edited by petosiris; 11-04-2018 at 07:52 PM.


That is how the Greeks conceptualized them anyways, it has nothing to do with emotional considerations having precedence over rank and power, lol.

One can easily spot that Libra and Sagittarius are the domiciles of the benefics, yet adjacent to the planets' depression. The domicile definitely takes precedence to the placement by adjacency, yet the adjacency still takes some power away from the planets. Exaltations are better than domiciles, contrary to what some people think. If Mars in Aries is +4 from domicile and -1 from masculine sign, then Venus in Libra is +2 since it is a masculine sign (-1) and adjacent to its depression (-2). Venus still rejoices in Libra, but not as much as in Taurus and especially Pisces.
Last edited by petosiris; 11-26-2018 at 12:05 AM.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Quote:
relatives of relatives
Derivatives become redundant with some houses. I've noticed they have the same thing in Indian astrology with ''bhavat bhavam'' where some astrologers noted that the III is less effective because it is the eighth from eighth. However, if so, shouldn't all odd houses signify relatives (infinite regress)? I've been exploring more the idea of accidental maleficence in charts with an open mind, all I notice is that it is quite foreign to me. It is almost completely absent in Hellenistic compared to its prevalence in Arabic and Indian, which did have many mutual exchanges (pun intended). Now some texts do have derivative houses, but it is interesting they are still secondary in the Indian and Arabic systems, the ruler of eighth is still not taken as malefic to parents with IV relative to VII (11th), but with the natal IV. It is kinda confusing actually, and I am not sure how useful these systems are (derivatives I mean).

Ptolemy had different idea, but easier and more rational, you use a significator as the Ascendant point, and interpret the chart from that for relatives etc. as you would with a nativity.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-01-2018 at 03:26 PM.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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Aside from some disagreement on which signs are diurnal or nocturnal - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...10206&start=15 check the last post for all possibilites, the Hellenistic astrologers also did not agree on how to decide the sect of Mercury. The michigan papyrus (1) states that Mercury is diurnal by day and nocturnal by night (I prefer this one), Valens (2) says that the bound of Mercury decides sect (presumably Venus or Mars makes it nocturnal, while in the bound of Jupiter or Saturn makes it diurnal). Porphyry and Ptolemy had a different theorem (3), Mercury is nocturnal when evening rising, and diurnal when morning rising.

(1) This one seems most reasonable to me, since the day is given to the Sun, and the night to the Moon. Mercury becomes more cold and moistening by night under the horizon, and it becomes more accustomed to the heat and dryness of the day.
(2) This one may have come from the Egyptians and their focus on the bounds. On this account, it may represent the oldest tradition. It is not clear to me what sect it belongs to when it is in its own term. ''Mercury rejoices according to the sect of the houseruler in whose terms the star is located.'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
(3) This one has similar drawback in my view, since Mercury is often under the beams, neither rising or setting, what is its sect in that case?

Mercury is alternating between moist and dry, the dryness on account of its zodiacal proximity to the Sun, the moistening on account of its proximity to the Earth, Moon and Venus, and their moist exhalations in Aristotelean cosmology. Mercury is in the second zone from Earth.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

HELLENISTIC

HOUSE MEANINGS




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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

RANDOM
EXAMPLES OF HELLENISTIC ELECTION MATERIAL

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Examples of Hellenistic election material:
Moon with Cancer is favorable for marriage, conception, purchases, sailing, journeys, making enemies, treachery, fishing, tilling the land, reclaiming the dry land, gardening, planting, sowing, digging up mines, rivers, wells and cisterns, hiding entrusted valuables, for giving and receiving payments, doing business with docks, buying amphibians, gardens and vineyards, for prayers to gods and for fleeing from enemies and irreconcilable strife. It is unfavorable for buying servants, for they will be weak, lazy and unreliable.

Moon trine Jupiter is good for everything, giving and receiving, buying and selling, travel, consultations, marrying and doing favours. Moon trine Mars is good for military matters, outfitting of weapons, for movement of armies and bearing arms, for being away from home, improving buildings and rebuilding. Moon square Venus is good for building, hunting, feasting, association, learning and the arts. Moon trine Mercury is good for encounters with distinguished individuals, for beginning of instructions, buying and selling, seafaring, congregating with judges, scholars and the great, accounting, dispatching ambassadors and written matters.

Let the Moon be at the Asc, Dsc or square to them and you would have a great election.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Re:

Which is worse?

A planet exalted with poor aspect
vs.
in rulership with poor aspect
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

It depends on placement and superiority, and the topic you are investigating
(some signs and places indicate one thing, others indicate another).
You need to factor dexter or sinister aspects (https://books.google.bg/books?id=GjI...page&q&f=false),
as well as those signs which are commanding and obeying.

Saturn in Capricorn square Venus in Libra is harmonious, because
Venus is overcoming Saturn while both are in their domiciles.
The person having this configuration in succedent or angular houses
will succeed in business, and will gain livelihood
(for example in the 38th year), except that his affairs will suffer
due to Venus being in changeable sign
(especially in the profection years where Venus transmits to Saturn
- 16th, 28th, 40th etc. years).
If the stars are cadent, then only the negative indication will apply,
and more strongly.
Saturn in Libra square Venus in Cancer is similar to the previous, although slightly worse.
Saturn in Cancer square Venus in Aries is much worse,
such person will suffer base affairs, abuse, separations, harm from relationships
or lawsuits, unless Jupiter is closely configured with Venus by day, in which case
the results are milder.
Saturn in Sagittarius square Venus in Pisces is inharmonious, although
not the worst, due to the square being like-engirding (sharing the same ruler)
and Venus being exalted.
Saturn in Aries square Venus in Cancer would be worst,
unless Jupiter is angular from the configuration by day.
If Mars is angular from Saturn and Venus, the indications are worse.
Example
- Libra Rising, Saturn at 3 Capricorn, Venus at 2 Aries, Mars in Gemini.
The native had a divorce and a second marriage, due Aries being changeable and passionate, and
due to the superior ray of Saturn by night, and due to the ruler of VII and Venus being in a double-bodied sign.


Another example
- Sagittarius Rising, Jupiter at 1 Sagittarius, Saturn at 17 Sagittarius, Mars at 3 Gemini,
Mercury at 13 Virgo, Venus at 23 Virgo.
The native had a divorce, due to Mars in Gemini, a double-bodied sign,
and due to the ruler being enclosed by malefic rays in a double-bodied sign,
while Venus was in a double-bodied sign and in depression.
I have not treat of commanding and obeying (counter-antiscia) on the forum before.
The following Hellenistic technique works in a sidereal zodiac.
The commanding are beholding, the obeying are listening, which the astrologers set as:
https://i.imgur.com/4GndZI3.jpg

The commanding images are diurnal, while the obeying images are nocturnal.
Every image decreasing light obeys the image increasing light.
It is better for good stars to be commanding,
especially on the right and with the summer solstice.
Because of the precession of the equinoxes and the discovery of antipodes,
we shall set forward the following theorems:
Libra obeys Leo in the north and commands it in the south.
Scorpio obeys Cancer in the north and commands it in the south.
Sagittarius obeys Gemini in the north and commands it in the south.
Capricorn obeys Taurus in the north and commands it in the south.
Aquarius obeys Aries in the north and commands it in the south.

Therefore in addition to superiority by preceding in diurnal motion,
we shall also examine superiority according to the seasons,
especially in those places where the change of weather is more pronounced,
those above and below the equatorial zone.
Taking the aforementioned nativity from Europe, it is clear that
the malefic contrary to the sect - the Fiery One, is strongly afflicting Jupiter and Saturn,
especially due to the stars being in the contrary solstices according to sect.
Indeed, hemming with burning heat, it caused grief from marriage
and from siblings later in life (due to setting in the west).
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

Lord of the Year

and

PROFECTION

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''before all, it is necessary to investigate the lord of the year and its mixture and position and phase, and the planets that see it by fixity and by transit, and how it was situated at the nativity, and how it was found at the time of the transit.'' - Hephaistio of Thebes, Apotelesmatics Book II Schmidt translation p. 81

There is a bit of difference from author to author on how to use Annual Profections. Everyone agrees that the ruler of the sign using the above mentioned diagram is ''Lord of the Year''. What Oddity alludes to is an approach in Valens and some authors of activated planets taking over the Lord of the Year in the given sign, even transiting ones in Valens. ''If one of the stars in transit has entered this place, then it will be transmitting the chronocratorship.''

Dorotheus does not change Rulers, and combines annual profection with a solar revolution as a transiting chart to evaluate its strength over the year. Note that Valens is somewhat innovating with Profections as he walks every single thing in the chart - all planets, places and lots. Personally I do not like that approach at all. I look at the planets in the activated signs as more powerful, but not as Time Lords. Also I do not profect anything but the Hour-Marker. I've also noticed Lord of the Year transits as well as transits over the whole year through the activated places as powerful as well.

Notice how all Hellenistic astrologers suddenly start talking about transits when using profections. This seems to originate from the founder of yearly and monthly profections - King Nechepso who provided some delineations, quoted by Valens:

''The native obtains great advancement if the star of Jupiter, while being chronocrator, is at MC or in the Place of Accomplishment with the star of Mars. When Jupiter and Mars are providing the active impulse, it will be necessary to see if the star of Saturn is coming into a transit or opposition, with the result that the chronocratorship of occupations becomes contrary. If <Mercury> is favorably situated at the nativity, the native will engage in greater activities, proportionate to the distinction of the nativity - for this is changed to that and that is changed to this by differences in the hours of birth...'' - Valens Book VII p. 137 Riley

I think the reason Valens and others changed the original idea, is that they started looking at profections as in terms of places, while I believe the original approach was to look at the Ruler of the Sign. The technique originally was to establish the Lord of the Year, not the house of the year. Notice Nechepso's monthly profection:

''The King had this opinion about the operative month: determine the distance from the sun’s current position to the moon’s position at birth, then count that distance from the Ascendant. It will be necessary to examine the ruler of the sign where the count stops to see if it is in operative signs, and to make a judgement about the stars in conjunction or in aspect, whether benefic or malefic. (For day births, determine the distance from the moon’s current position to the sun’s position at birth; count that from the Ascendant'' - Valens, p. 97 Riley

It emphasizes the Ruler, not the place of the profection. That is how I use profections. In my opinion annual profections can be separated into two categories of Lord of the Year and Ruling Place approaches. I believe Paulus follows Nechepso.
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Sir Rhys

How are you there?
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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Sir Rhys
How are you there?
others are concerned also that Rhys has not posted
since October
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Rhys? We've been a little worried.
Talisman, greater malefic, and you disappeared.
Let us know Saturn didn't eat you, ok?
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...355#post938355
so far we have no clue
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

You can follow Rhys on his website - http://www.rhyschatham.net/

Or listen to his stuff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi79QGa3cxc
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Wow! I barely knoe he is well known musican.
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Re: Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part III - Theoretical Considerations

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Wow! I barely knoe he is well known musican.
I did not know at the time either, he seems quite humble. Or maybe he wished to keep anonymous, but not anymore thanks to me. EXPOSED

Edit: that guitar piece is really good

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