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  #1  
Unread 07-23-2019, 06:07 PM
bgb bgb is offline
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Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

First of all sorry i sound incompetent (which I am) but I want to know more about myself.

I am a girl and I have Mars opposition Pluto aspect.

What is the good and the bad about it.

I know i can be intimidating even when trying hard to be polite or even when not speaking. Is that written on my face?

Does it necessarily that aspect will put you in trouble.?

Is there a job/career that i might use the aspect for good?

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  #2  
Unread 07-24-2019, 07:32 PM
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Joe Zaza Joe Zaza is offline
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

The good thing about every opposition aspect is that they eventually lead to a balance between the objects involved. The bad is that the balance comes at the cost of having repeated polarizing experiences between the two influences; where they feel irreconcilable or like a mutually exclusive proposition (i.e., that both couldn't possibly exist at the same time).

In your case, the two objects involved are oblique; meaning neither opposite nor identical at the same time. Mars & Pluto are the traditional and modern rulers of Scorpio (respectively). What they share is the "desire for power". But Mars seeks power rather impulsively while Pluto "does so" deliberately. They also differ in the sense that Mars is "egocentric" while Pluto is "altercentric", or oriented towards others more than "the self".

If Plutonic power is ever placed in service of the ego, it will always lead to the subject's downfall. This is because Pluto is about merging with others, and does so by discovering other people's values. And when you do that, it's your responsibility to use those discoveries for the benefit of the other person. But instead of doing that, subjects with ties between Pluto and the ego will "mentally trespass" (using those discoveries) to control others.

What you end up learning (time after time) is that people will protect their privacy fiercely—to the point of denying the obvious—to get away from your (or any outside) control. And that you can't just "corner" them into confirming or denying the truth. They'll simply walk away from you.

The equilibrium you'll eventually come to is to use your inclination to discover other people's motives for service instead of profit; which lies (exactly) in the realm of psychology. But this requires care and many delicate techniques (erecting boundaries to control projection, displacement or transference; professionalism, in other words) to be effective (i.e., to make breakthroughs, untangle complexes and promote self-understanding for those you serve). Otherwise, you'll find the temptation to "blend into" and manipulate your partnerships irresistible.

Discovering others' motives can never be done with even the slightest profit for the psychologist, because doing so creates an irreparable breach of trust that will undo even the purest work.

As you sway between Pluto (doing things in service of others) and Mars (doing things for personal profit), you may also get tempted to abandon Mars (the ego), wondering whether it has any use at all.

But it does.

Mars is impulse and competition. It's the basic cardinal drive of everything we understand as human beings. It's central to vitality, lifeblood, and movement. Not Mercurial movement (or travel), but verve and the quickening of life. It's pure physical energy.

So CERTAINLY its cultivation is good... where impulse goes haywire is when you fail to pair it with tact.

Tact (ruled by Venus/Libra, as the opposite to impulse) means pausing before you act; whether to think, observe, or simply control your impulse before allowing it to run free. But sometimes even tact goes wrong when you fail to move out of comfort, fear, or ulterior motives.

A healthy dose of impulse can stop tact from becoming (by exaggeration) deceit; so you can see how Mars & (by extension) Aries are said to "seldom lie". It isn't because they can't, but only because lying & deceit are incompatible with their need to be themselves.

On the other hand, competition (as opposed to the more Venusian cooperation) can also be taken too far in the sense that the competitor ignores everyone & everything to "be first". Its opposite (cooperation) can also be taken in excess by creating a kind of "unity paralysis". And while there's certainty nothing wrong with unity, there's definitely something wrong with complacency & homogenization.

As the opposite to Mars, Venus also has a way of promoting unit harmony (an offshoot of cooperation) but also hiding within the unit to make its members do its work "for her". Hence the idea that Libra/Venus uses "charm" to attract before becoming "lazy".

"Charm" would be the opposite of "work" here; work that Mars (energy at its purest) is unafraid to do. So perhaps you can see how a healthy dose of Mars in our lives is a good thing.

Competition, when balanced with cooperation becomes rivalry… which doesn't always have to become bitter. In fact, it's one of the few lessons of "the free market" that I agree with: how competition (when regulated) spurs development; something I think everyone can rally behind, and which explains Robert Hand's idea that Uranus (perhaps the 'higher octave' of Mars) is more fire than air. Mars = energy (fire), Uranus = development (also fire).

Unlike Saturn (which can slow and frustrate Mars) or Venus (which diametrically opposes it), Pluto doesn't interfere with any of this, except in the sense that it's the necessary "death of the self" before pushing Mars into a new and wider-encompassing phase; its required transformation before it emerges into the outer world.

This is the main problem with Libra, and perhaps why the Sun is "in Fall" in that sign; it's the first part of the upper half of the horoscope, or the beginning of the self's emergence into the outer world.

But it's an unprecedented step for the self to take: the step of encompassing another. By all accounts, Libra should be mutable in order to do this; in other words, the natural state of Venus "should" be receptive. Perhaps that's why Gemini IS mutable and the first air sign (showing that air is mutable by nature).

But instead, Libra (and Venusian energy) is cardinal. Which signals how every new force (the existence of 'the other') needs new life. But it's a "self-other" contradiction that ALL self-oriented energies (including the Sun) may feel confused in.

Which explains Mars' detriment there too: it's compatible by its cardinality, but being altercentric isn't what Mars is built to do.

Likewise (on the opposite end of Scorpio/Pluto), Taurus is the "death" of the "other" and the beginning of practicality; or self-survival.

PHEW... Forgive the digression, but it helps to paint a picture that's more complete. SO IN SUM:

Mars and Pluto are more alike than they are different, but Mars is a self-oriented energy and Pluto is an "other"-oriented one. Both have POWER in common, but Mars' power is unadulterated, and Pluto's REQUIRES subjugation before transformation.

That doesn't mean Pluto's power is adulterated… Unlike the process of adulteration (where what you add to something renders it "poorer" in quality), Pluto breathes new life into whatever it transforms. So the surrender of Martian energy to Pluto is auspicious, though something Mars (whose energy is active & obvious) will naturally suspect and avoid.

On the other hand, Plutonic energy is latent & obscure. It's the tank that holds the fuel (Martian energy), capable of withstanding the blast of its combustion. But it NEEDS that fuel to make that transformation happen. Without it, the tank will figuratively accumulate sediment, rust and debris (or simply fall into disuse—lol).

Plutonic energy cannot cajole Mars into its vessel (only to be exploded); Mars has to come in by its own will. If you try to "fool it" into blowing itself up, it'll do whatever it can (including self-destruct) to escape. In other words, it would rather blow the tank along with itself than to let the tank survive.

So all partnerships MUST be negotiated (i.e., entered into WILLINGLY) and transparent the whole way. In other words, if you think of ANYTHING that can "get changed" along the way, you must notify every party involved. If not, prepare to go down with your own ship.

In YET other words, you (and every other person with a Mars-Pluto aspect) have the responsibility of FULL DISCLOSURE. And this will be difficult, because the latent power you hold to transform things (Mars-Pluto together IS the power of transformation) will scare people. But if you aren't up front with it… or if you conceal your intentions with any secrecy AT ALL, you'll be way worse off than you would've been by making your motivations crystal clear.

So while your motives might SCARE people, you have to "front load" all your deals and face that fear up-front.

Your main lesson in life may be learning that service is better than profit. Something about your past has programmed your attitudes, opinions and behaviors to believe that relationships of profit, power and control are best and that everyone is out for themselves.

So while people may sense that "Machiavellian stink" coming off of you, you'll eventually realize that UNLESS you serve, all of your partnerships will work dysfunctionally. Or (even worse) end in sabotage (i.e., your partner wresting away and hurting you in the process of escaping).

That doesn't mean that it's your natural instinct to control... you'd have to look to your Saturn to find that. But the Mars-Pluto combination prefers control because "it knows" how afraid its partners are of their imminent transformation (how you intend to 'use up their fuel' to create a planned 'explosion').

You need to find people / groups who are visionary enough to understand your designs and strong enough to withstand transformation (i.e., to 'resurrect' in the wake of the explosions you naturally create from their partnership and effort).

Long read, I know… but I hope that helps.
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Last edited by Joe Zaza; 07-24-2019 at 07:55 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 07-24-2019, 08:11 PM
lif3siz3p4p3rd011 lif3siz3p4p3rd011 is offline
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

Look to the houses Mars and Pluto occupy-this is where you can focus specifically on finding balance. I personally believe all aspects (such as life) are about finding balance, and once you conquer these challenges can utilize the "hard aspects" into strengths.



Father Amorth, a famous exorcist, had this aspect. He took his power (Mars and Pluto) and used it to help people in areas that are hidden from view (8th house). You would excel in any type of investigative/detective work. Or researching uncovering the hidden areas of life.

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Unread 07-24-2019, 09:02 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Zaza View Post
The good thing about every opposition aspect is that they eventually lead to a balance between the objects involved. The bad is that the balance comes at the cost of having repeated polarizing experiences between the two influences; where they feel irreconcilable or like a mutually exclusive proposition (i.e., that both couldn't possibly exist at the same time).

In your case, the two objects involved are oblique; meaning neither opposite nor identical at the same time. Mars & Pluto are the traditional and modern rulers of Scorpio (respectively). What they share is the "desire for power". But Mars seeks power rather impulsively while Pluto "does so" deliberately. They also differ in the sense that Mars is "egocentric" while Pluto is "altercentric", or oriented towards others more than "the self".

If Plutonic power is ever placed in service of the ego, it will always lead to the subject's downfall. This is because Pluto is about merging with others, and does so by discovering other people's values. And when you do that, it's your responsibility to use those discoveries for the benefit of the other person. But instead of doing that, subjects with ties between Pluto and the ego will "mentally trespass" (using those discoveries) to control others.

What you end up learning (time after time) is that people will protect their privacy fiercely—to the point of denying the obvious—to get away from your (or any outside) control. And that you can't just "corner" them into confirming or denying the truth. They'll simply walk away from you.

The equilibrium you'll eventually come to is to use your inclination to discover other people's motives for service instead of profit; which lies (exactly) in the realm of psychology. But this requires care and many delicate techniques (erecting boundaries to control projection, displacement or transference; professionalism, in other words) to be effective (i.e., to make breakthroughs, untangle complexes and promote self-understanding for those you serve). Otherwise, you'll find the temptation to "blend into" and manipulate your partnerships irresistible.

Discovering others' motives can never be done with even the slightest profit for the psychologist, because doing so creates an irreparable breach of trust that will undo even the purest work.

As you sway between Pluto (doing things in service of others) and Mars (doing things for personal profit), you may also get tempted to abandon Mars (the ego), wondering whether it has any use at all.

But it does.

Mars is impulse and competition. It's the basic cardinal drive of everything we understand as human beings. It's central to vitality, lifeblood, and movement. Not Mercurial movement (or travel), but verve and the quickening of life. It's pure physical energy.

So CERTAINLY its cultivation is good... where impulse goes haywire is when you fail to pair it with tact.

Tact (ruled by Venus/Libra, as the opposite to impulse) means pausing before you act; whether to think, observe, or simply control your impulse before allowing it to run free. But sometimes even tact goes wrong when you fail to move out of comfort, fear, or ulterior motives.

A healthy dose of impulse can stop tact from becoming (by exaggeration) deceit; so you can see how Mars & (by extension) Aries are said to "seldom lie". It isn't because they can't, but only because lying & deceit are incompatible with their need to be themselves.

On the other hand, competition (as opposed to the more Venusian cooperation) can also be taken too far in the sense that the competitor ignores everyone & everything to "be first". Its opposite (cooperation) can also be taken in excess by creating a kind of "unity paralysis". And while there's certainty nothing wrong with unity, there's definitely something wrong with complacency & homogenization.

As the opposite to Mars, Venus also has a way of promoting unit harmony (an offshoot of cooperation) but also hiding within the unit to make its members do its work "for her". Hence the idea that Libra/Venus uses "charm" to attract before becoming "lazy".

"Charm" would be the opposite of "work" here; work that Mars (energy at its purest) is unafraid to do. So perhaps you can see how a healthy dose of Mars in our lives is a good thing.

Competition, when balanced with cooperation becomes rivalry… which doesn't always have to become bitter. In fact, it's one of the few lessons of "the free market" that I agree with: how competition (when regulated) spurs development; something I think everyone can rally behind, and which explains Robert Hand's idea that Uranus (perhaps the 'higher octave' of Mars) is more fire than air. Mars = energy (fire), Uranus = development (also fire).

Unlike Saturn (which can slow and frustrate Mars) or Venus (which diametrically opposes it), Pluto doesn't interfere with any of this, except in the sense that it's the necessary "death of the self" before pushing Mars into a new and wider-encompassing phase; its required transformation before it emerges into the outer world.

This is the main problem with Libra, and perhaps why the Sun is "in Fall" in that sign; it's the first part of the upper half of the horoscope, or the beginning of the self's emergence into the outer world.

But it's an unprecedented step for the self to take: the step of encompassing another. By all accounts, Libra should be mutable in order to do this; in other words, the natural state of Venus "should" be receptive. Perhaps that's why Gemini IS mutable and the first air sign (showing that air is mutable by nature).

But instead, Libra (and Venusian energy) is cardinal. Which signals how every new force (the existence of 'the other') needs new life. But it's a "self-other" contradiction that ALL self-oriented energies (including the Sun) may feel confused in.

Which explains Mars' detriment there too: it's compatible by its cardinality, but being altercentric isn't what Mars is built to do.

Likewise (on the opposite end of Scorpio/Pluto), Taurus is the "death" of the "other" and the beginning of practicality; or self-survival.

PHEW... Forgive the digression, but it helps to paint a picture that's more complete. SO IN SUM:

Mars and Pluto are more alike than they are different, but Mars is a self-oriented energy and Pluto is an "other"-oriented one. Both have POWER in common, but Mars' power is unadulterated, and Pluto's REQUIRES subjugation before transformation.

That doesn't mean Pluto's power is adulterated… Unlike the process of adulteration (where what you add to something renders it "poorer" in quality), Pluto breathes new life into whatever it transforms. So the surrender of Martian energy to Pluto is auspicious, though something Mars (whose energy is active & obvious) will naturally suspect and avoid.

On the other hand, Plutonic energy is latent & obscure. It's the tank that holds the fuel (Martian energy), capable of withstanding the blast of its combustion. But it NEEDS that fuel to make that transformation happen. Without it, the tank will figuratively accumulate sediment, rust and debris (or simply fall into disuse—lol).

Plutonic energy cannot cajole Mars into its vessel (only to be exploded); Mars has to come in by its own will. If you try to "fool it" into blowing itself up, it'll do whatever it can (including self-destruct) to escape. In other words, it would rather blow the tank along with itself than to let the tank survive.

So all partnerships MUST be negotiated (i.e., entered into WILLINGLY) and transparent the whole way. In other words, if you think of ANYTHING that can "get changed" along the way, you must notify every party involved. If not, prepare to go down with your own ship.

In YET other words, you (and every other person with a Mars-Pluto aspect) have the responsibility of FULL DISCLOSURE. And this will be difficult, because the latent power you hold to transform things (Mars-Pluto together IS the power of transformation) will scare people. But if you aren't up front with it… or if you conceal your intentions with any secrecy AT ALL, you'll be way worse off than you would've been by making your motivations crystal clear.

So while your motives might SCARE people, you have to "front load" all your deals and face that fear up-front.

Your main lesson in life may be learning that service is better than profit. Something about your past has programmed your attitudes, opinions and behaviors to believe that relationships of profit, power and control are best and that everyone is out for themselves.

So while people may sense that "Machiavellian stink" coming off of you, you'll eventually realize that UNLESS you serve, all of your partnerships will work dysfunctionally. Or (even worse) end in sabotage (i.e., your partner wresting away and hurting you in the process of escaping).

That doesn't mean that it's your natural instinct to control... you'd have to look to your Saturn to find that. But the Mars-Pluto combination prefers control because "it knows" how afraid its partners are of their imminent transformation (how you intend to 'use up their fuel' to create a planned 'explosion').

You need to find people / groups who are visionary enough to understand your designs and strong enough to withstand transformation (i.e., to 'resurrect' in the wake of the explosions you naturally create from their partnership and effort).

Long read, I know… but I hope that helps.
Wow very interesting long detailed and informative read! Does this apply to a square aswell?
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Joe Zaza (07-25-2019)
  #5  
Unread 07-24-2019, 11:59 PM
bgb bgb is offline
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

Thank you Joe Zaza

This is another level of accurate explanation (which definitely will make me think a lot)

I also have Scorpio and Pluto in the 3rd house.
And I might do have that desire for manipulate and to confront people.
Sometimes i cannot help but when being in conversation with someone i can sense what they think and what they want even without saying anything about it.

I am good at digging info and using it to confront in situations, so I do learn from experience people prefer not to deal with me because of feeling afraid BUT that is sometimes profitable (in a way that I/we withstand with our views and not becoming controlled or manipulated by others). So should i understand that as a service or profit or is a bit of both?

Quote:
In YET other words, you (and every other person with a Mars-Pluto aspect) have the responsibility of FULL DISCLOSURE. And this will be difficult, because the latent power you hold to transform things (Mars-Pluto together IS the power of transformation) will scare people. But if you aren't up front with it… or if you conceal your intentions with any secrecy AT ALL, you'll be way worse off than you would've been by making your motivations crystal clear.
Then how I would know what kind of power to change things i have?
I accept the fact people don't find me easy going,but i cannot accept the fact i don't feel self-contained and i don't know my purpose to live is!

Quote:
Your main lesson in life may be learning that service is better than profit. Something about your past has programmed your attitudes, opinions and behaviors to believe that relationships of profit, power and control are best and that everyone is out for themselves.
Isn't it coming first to find a purpose in life, so then I can start thinking of what is better or right?

I am constantly being told to start helping people with their health, but on the other hand I know that most of peoples issues regarding their bodies come from their repeated mistakes and way of understanding life. And from that comes my attitude that everyone is out for themselves. (maybe a bit egoistic)

How you guys found what is your purpose here (if).
Do you leave that to flow naturally in your life or you look at astrology for suggestions.
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Unread 07-25-2019, 04:52 AM
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Joe Zaza Joe Zaza is offline
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

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Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
Wow very interesting long detailed and informative read! Does this apply to a square as well?
Well, the main difference between oppositions & squares is that squares "cause" tension while oppositions "cause" polarization. Both are difficult (hence their labels as 'hard aspects'), but they do operate differently.

They say that oppositions are more "powerful" than squares, but there's still a tremendous amount of energy that gets released in a square. Especially when these two objects (Mars & Pluto) are involved.

Squares (unlike oppositions) cause a perpetual tension that has to be worked as you go… instead of something the subject learns by alternating (like a seesaw) between each new experience.

There's less of a chance to reflect with a square, since the objects involved are sort of "mashed" together (i.e., occupying similar quadruplicities without being on an axis).

So while oppositions are something that we can (and usually) reconcile, squares are something we always have to work with. And the power we gain by reconciling their "cross purposes" is a by-product of that work; not the goal in itself.

In fact, if the subject of a square could have it their way, they'd probably just avoid the tension altogether.

But something about their psyche always forces them to deal with it. Like a "gremlin" in a car or a flavor that's "baked into the cake".

Subjects of squares certainly understand the tension between the objects involved, and learn to reconcile those "cross purposes" with dogged persistence. But everyone else just "feels" their power (as a 'tool' or vague capability they have). So if anything the subject would acknowledge their power begrudgingly:

"YEAH—I'm good at that... but it isn't like I want to be."

In fact, getting them to think about their (square-endowed) powers probably only reminds them of how much pain they've endured to acquire them.



Therefore, squares are mostly found in the "Façade" quadrant (-, +) of Johari's Window (something they're forced to develop, but which they get little recognition for), whereas oppositions are mostly found in its "Blind Spot" quadrant (+, -)—i.e., something the subject learns through their interactions w/others but which has no inherent knowledge of themselves.

If people get any recognition for a square, it's more like a "huh?—I didn't notice that" or "wow—su©ks for you" kind of deal.

I honestly believe that conjunctions (or oppositions, once reconciled) are the aspects people get recognition for. While for the "smaller" aspects (i.e., sextiles, squares and/or trines), people on the outside just sort-of know about the subject's facility w/the objects… rather than recognizing it as something outstanding.
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Last edited by Joe Zaza; 07-25-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Unread 07-25-2019, 04:13 PM
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgb View Post
Thank you Joe Zaza

I also have Scorpio and Pluto in the 3rd house.

And I [may] have that desire for manipulate and to confront people.

Sometimes I cannot help but when being in conversation with someone I can sense what they think and what they want even without saying anything about it.
Sounds natural for a 3rd House Pluto.

You may also have skill with grammar that allows you to "read between the lines" linguistically. Discovering others' motives through their non-verbals (facial expression, body language, hand gestures & tone of voice) is one thing, but there are also motives to be read by WHAT they say, WHEN, and HOW they present it.

Not just contextually, but content-wise too. For example, the way they verbalize; the logical order and word choice. I'm guessing that a 3rd House Pluto may learn to key in on that more than others as well.

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Originally Posted by bgb View Post
I am good at digging info and using it to confront in situations, so I have learned from experience that people prefer not to deal with me out of fear BUT that is sometimes profitable (in a way that I/we withstand with our views and not becoming controlled or manipulated by others). So should i understand that as a service or profit or is a bit of both?
Depriving others of exchanging with you is not a service; it's a disservice! To both of you.

With exchanges, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Projecting difficulties, bitterness or irreconcilable differences beforehand is a self-imposed obstacle.

You have to be careful with projection; whether deliberately (out of caution) or unwittingly (as a defense mechanism). Its opposite is introjection, or when the target conforms to what you're signaling.

As a more concrete example, think of a movie projector: the image wouldn't be clear without a screen.

That's exactly what introjection is: the other person "giving you a screen" to display what you're projecting. They conform (to whatever trait you find undesirable about yourself) simply out of being conciliatory.

Then they become sour to further interactions out of confusion for why they don't "act that way with anyone else"... exiting the hypnosis of projection-introjection leaves them with a lingering feeling of discomfort.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of conformity in a conversation. For example, people have a tendency to say "You know?" while they're talking, and the other person has a tendency to say "Yeah!"… well, there's an example of conformity (or introjection) out of politeness.

But we've all made the mistake of being TOO conciliatory (allowing the other person in the exchange to 'blend' their feelings with ours), which gives others the opportunity to displace their feelings of inadequacy onto us.

And once you understand the psychological mechanisms behind that, you simply stop. Certainly it takes a conscientious effort, but why would anyone do that on purpose or out of some Machiavellian design? Okay, maybe Machiavelli would… but in this global day and age where transparency is replacing secrecy?

At any rate, the way to stop is by erecting boundaries, or creating moments where you "lift the fog" (i.e., ask questions to clarify) and clear the air. If the other person responds uncomfortably, then that means THEY don't even understand what they're doing.

Projection is a defense mechanism; people do it mechanistically. Most of us don't do it deliberately or think about it in such concrete terms. Most of us do it intuitively and simply "feel" it (abstractly).

But when you interrupt that flow of feeling by raising those boundaries and refusing to conform to what they're projecting, you'll introduce a new kind of discomfort that has to be explained… where they don't even realize what they did.

But your effectiveness is assuaging their discomfort is called "being clinical". And the more clinical you become, the more effective you'll be in keeping that communication from flying off the rails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgb View Post
Then how I would know what kind of power to change things i have?

I accept the fact people don't find me easy going, but I cannot accept the fact I don't feel self-contained and I don't know my purpose to live is!
You're a Pisces with your Sun conjunct DC. Of course you feel that way.

But look to your Midheaven for your purpose. The dispositor path of your MC leads to a loop between your Neptune (conjunct 5th Cusp), Saturn (4th) & Jupiter (7th). Children, home, and partner. Not to mention the main disposition from MC to your DC Mercury, which puts the main emphasis on partnership or one-to-one communication.

Your Saturn will tell about your career, too. Since it conjoins Uranus in Sagittarius in the 4th House, it may have to do with teaching in the home. Saturn+Uranus = the tension between tradition (Saturn) and progress (Uranus), and is strongly associated with teaching according to Robert Hand. But you may need a low teacher-to-student ratio, since the emphasis seems to be one-to-one (Mercury in the 7th).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgb View Post
Isn't it coming first to find a purpose in life, so then I can start thinking of what is better or right?

I am constantly being told to start helping people with their health, but on the other hand I know that most of peoples issues regarding their bodies come from their repeated mistakes and way of understanding life. And from that comes my attitude that everyone is out for themselves. (maybe a bit egoistic)
Yes, the dispositor path leading back to Pisces suggests something with the medical field. One-to-one counseling is what I recommend, especially with a teacher-student dynamic (coaching maybe) run out of the home, and maybe to youth or children (Neptune conjunct the 5th House cusp).

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Originally Posted by bgb View Post
Do you leave that to flow naturally in your life or you look at astrology for suggestions.
Both! Always both… You can definitely spend your time in books but at some point or another, you're going to have to live your life.
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Unread 07-25-2019, 04:28 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Zaza View Post
Well, the main difference between oppositions & squares is that squares "cause" tension while oppositions "cause" polarization. Both are difficult (hence their labels as 'hard aspects'), but they do operate differently.

They say that oppositions are more "powerful" than squares, but there's still a tremendous amount of energy that gets released in a square. Especially when these two objects (Mars & Pluto) are involved.

Squares (unlike oppositions) cause a perpetual tension that has to be worked as you go… instead of something the subject learns by alternating (like a seesaw) between each new experience.

There's less of a chance to reflect with a square, since the objects involved are sort of "mashed" together (i.e., occupying similar quadruplicities without being on an axis).

So while oppositions are something that we can (and usually) reconcile, squares are something we always have to work with. And the power we gain by reconciling their "cross purposes" is a by-product of that work; not the goal in itself.

In fact, if the subject of a square could have it their way, they'd probably just avoid the tension altogether.

But something about their psyche always forces them to deal with it. Like a "gremlin" in a car or a flavor that's "baked into the cake".

Subjects of squares certainly understand the tension between the objects involved, and learn to reconcile those "cross purposes" with dogged persistence. But everyone else just "feels" their power (as a 'tool' or vague capability they have). So if anything the subject would acknowledge their power begrudgingly:

"YEAH—I'm good at that... but it isn't like I want to be."

In fact, getting them to think about their (square-endowed) powers probably only reminds them of how much pain they've endured to acquire them.



Therefore, squares are mostly found in the "Façade" quadrant (-, +) of Johari's Window (something they're forced to develop, but which they get little recognition for), whereas oppositions are mostly found in its "Blind Spot" quadrant (+, -)—i.e., something the subject learns through their interactions w/others but which has no inherent knowledge of themselves.

If people get any recognition for a square, it's more like a "huh?—I didn't notice that" or "wow—su©ks for you" kind of deal.

I honestly believe that conjunctions (or oppositions, once reconciled) are the aspects people get recognition for. While for the "smaller" aspects (i.e., sextiles, squares and/or trines), people on the outside just sort-of know about the subject's facility w/the objects… rather than recognizing it as something outstanding.
Thank you for so much information. This is very Interesting and I’m going to take a look at my natal chart and see how it all comes together. Thanks again 😊😎 don't know where in the world you are right now but in uk it’s like 35 degrees and no air!!
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

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Thank you for so much information. This is very Interesting and I’m going to take a look at my natal chart and see how it all comes together. Thanks again 😊😎 don't know where in the world you are right now but in uk it’s like 35 degrees and no air!!
I've been making time for astrology lately, so no problem. I'm in Southern California; about 100 km East of Los Angeles. It was 106 (41) yesterday, but at least there's no humidity down here. There's a ton of smog, though
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I've been making time for astrology lately, so no problem. I'm in Southern California; about 100 km East of Los Angeles. It was 106 (41) yesterday, but at least there's no humidity down here. There's a ton of smog, though
That’s crazy but at least you have that lovely breeze.

Thanks again for your insights. Joe zaza how do u think I could work with my square to overcome the issues you mentioned?
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

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Thanks again for your insights. Joe Zaza, how do [you] think I could work with my square to overcome the issues you mentioned?
Well just as with the opposition, the solution is cultivating the energy of Mars & Pluto's opposites: Venus & Earth.

It's funny, because nobody talks about Earth (or how 'your Earth' is found on the IC). I was extremely excited by Robert Hand's suggestion that Earth (as the IC) would be a better ruler for Taurus, and it immediately sent my thoughts to the future horoscopes of people born on Lunar/Martian colonies (that would actually HAVE Earth on their charts).

They say there's "no earthier planet than Saturn" in the horoscope, but I do see a distinct difference between Saturn/Capricorn and Earth/Taurus.

Of course, all of this conjecture would probably send Robert Hand into a fit since he's been advocating classic rulerships as of late. He probably wishes he'd never wrote it by now.

In any case, what I believe is that Saturn differs from Earth in terms of magnitude. Saturn & Capricorn have to do with logic & pragmatism with regards to the public sphere, but Earth & Taurus probably have to do with logic & pragmatism within the private sphere: NOT some "cold equation" of what's good for someone "in terms of the many" (or what's good for the many in terms of the few), but what's good for someone, period.

To me, it's no coincidence that the only two signs that fire & earth occupy in the final half of the horoscope are Sagittarius & Capricorn, because both (fire & earth) are very self-oriented energies; those are their last chances at manifesting in the outer world.

On the other hand, only two air & water signs (Gemini & Cancer) exist in the first half of the horoscope because those energies are best suited for the outer world.

In other words, Earth BELONGS "to the self". A definite "keyword" would BE "belonging". Taurus/Earth are where the "self" feels most natural.

Saturn & Capricorn are places where the self tries to INTEGRATE with the outer world, but we all know how unnatural it feels to be in the position of authority or to obey authority (as well).

Something we've ALWAYS wondered (throughout the history of civilization) is why people have a tendency to follow leaders without leading themselves.

And Tauruses exemplify that: a "connection" to the Earth, the idea of being comfortable in one's own skin, and not needing to lead.

In fact, the effect of Taurean transits is to "slow" the transiting object to what feels like a halt; i.e., to force the object to "be itself".

On the other hand, Saturn tends to age whatever it touches before eventually tranisiting through. Many have said that Saturn transits can feel like ossification also, but it's my belief that rather than rigidifying whatever it touches, it simply scours and reinforces it instead. And the chaff that falls off during the process explains the aging.

And while that scouring process can FEEL like paralysis, it's definitely not the role of Saturn to make things stand still (to the contrary, Saturn rules time itself).

So Saturn, Capricorn and leadership aren't "bad". It's just that leadership is a role that should be "thrust" upon people, not something they always look forward to—like the idea of "success". If you think about "success" linguistically, we "succeed" in a "line of succession" only when someone gets fired, gets promoted, dies, or abandons their post.

But Western culture has given way to the idea that success is something that should be chased, not waited for.

So in the end, I guess you could say Saturn is "authority" while Earth is "authenticity".

I'd say the same applies to Earth (as an object): anything Earth (or the IC) aspects will lend a feeling of "inner nature" to the object. Not the emotional comfort of the Moon, but a simpler, physical & matter-of-fact comfort.

This idea about comfort helps you understand the mutual receptivity between Earth & the Moon and how the Moon is exalted in Taurus.

Speaking of which, since Earth would be "in Dominion" in Taurus, that means it would be "in Detriment" in Scorpio.

As far as the position of its Exaltation or Fall, I'm not sure. Though I'm sure it would be something counter-intuitive like with Saturn (which is exalted in Libra). Maybe Earth is exalted in Aquarius and in Fall in Leo?

Anyway, where Earth tends to "go wrong" is in its inability to branch away from the mundane. Whereas other signs & objects may be able to go from concrete operations to abstract operations, Earth's tendency is to avoid that. It's where the abstract goes to die, get buried, and forced to be grown from the ground-up again: the slow, thorough and sometimes painful cycle of life (as opposed to Scorpio's death).

And speaking of its Detriment in Scorpio, this explains its discomfort in that sign: Scorpio is the realm of extremity & pure relativism, where good becomes evil and evil becomes good through some kind of existential post-modernistic twist.

But Pluto needs Taurus just as much as Earth needs Scorpio, so while they tend to "bristle" by being in their opposite signs, there's definitely something to be learned for each of them being there.

By the way, the last generation of Pluto in Taurus (Detriment) children were born between 1853 and 1884, and the next will be born in 2098.

And you can see how the Pluto in Scorpio (Dominion) children (1983 - 1995) are definitely the Millennials who've sent our world into the post-modern relativism that makes us question the authority or authenticity of anything. Which is completely natural for the age of the world wide web and the internet; the event of their emergence is unprecedented in the history of humankind.

As far as Earth being "in Dominion", the chance comes about as often as the Moon, since it has to do with the subject's time of birth more than anything.

Under relatively equal-sized houses (i.e., someone who's born close to the equator), the IC would be in Taurus for people born with Aquarius rising. But without equal sized houses (i.e., someone born in a northern or southern latitude), the IC could fall just about anywhere (because of Earth's axial tilt from that location).

And the opposite would go for Earth "in Detriment" (IC in Scorpio = Leo rising toward the equator, with anyone's guess the further you get away from it).

As for its "Exaltation in Aquarius", maybe that has to do with Earth's disinclination to abstract from a concentric position. Aquarius' natural eccentricity may be just what Earth needs to make that departure from its core. Ideas of a united or global humanity come to play here.

And as to its "Fall in Leo", the combination of Earth and Fire works sometimes, but has traditionally been an uneasy one. Hand comments on this in "Horoscope Symbols":

Quote:
[...other] connections are less obvious. For example, Saturn is exalted in Libra, the sign ruled by Venus, even though Saturn is usually considered to inhibit Venus. And while Mars is exalted in Capricorn, Saturn's sign, Saturn is said to be in its fall in Aries, Mars's sign. Why should one combination of Mars-Saturn symbolism be beneficial while the other is not? Of course part of the answer is that planets are not identical with the signs they rule: Mars is not Aries and Saturn is not Capricorn. But one would expect Mars in Capricorn to be just as conflicting as Saturn in Aries. Clearly, whatever logic there is in the assignment of planets to rulerships is lacking in the assignment of planets to exaltations.
I honestly think this fall assignment (Earth in Leo) makes sense, since both are "fixed" energies (forming a kind of square tension)… just as Saturn and Aries are both "cardinal" ones.

OKAY—so with that being said, my opinion is that getting in touch with your Venusian or Terrestrial energies is the solution to handling the difficulty of the Mars-Pluto square.

So where's your Earth (IC)?
In which of your houses is Taurus?
What planets do you have in Taurus?
What's the dispositor (ruler) of your Earth (IC)?

Likewise, where's your Venus?
In which of your houses is Libra?
What planets do you have in Libra?
What's the dispositor (ruler) of your Venus?

Once you answer those questions, you can explore how it is that you filter their archetypes and transform them into channels you can send the Plutonic/Martian energy through more distinctly.

IF THAT MAKES SENSE... does it? I hope so.

Of course, I could spend more time explaining Venus or how Earth is the opposite to Pluto, but it seems to me that Mars-Pluto squares are victims of their own tremendous energies and are literally blind to seeing the importance of integrity (Earth) or partnership (Venus) in their lives.

More often than not, "people" are just resources "to be used" in the scheme of their impulses and conquests. So I think it's important that you begin to see what Earth & Venus mean to you particularly.

Also let me know if your Venus or IC (Earth) is conjunct anything. Conjunctions often signify archetypes that the subject has trouble making distinctions between. So if Venus was conjunct, say, Pallas, the subject would see patterns (Pallas) and relationships (Venus) as one and the same, and could benefit greatly from studying the difference between the two.
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

Joe Zaza
Thank you again and I really appreciate your time to explain all that to me.
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Well just as with the opposition, the solution is cultivating the energy of Mars & Pluto's opposites: Venus & Earth.

It's funny, because nobody talks about Earth (or how 'your Earth' is found on the IC). I was extremely excited by Robert Hand's suggestion that Earth (as the IC) would be a better ruler for Taurus, and it immediately sent my thoughts to the future horoscopes of people born on Lunar/Martian colonies (that would actually HAVE Earth on their charts).

They say there's "no earthier planet than Saturn" in the horoscope, but I do see a distinct difference between Saturn/Capricorn and Earth/Taurus.

Of course, all of this conjecture would probably send Robert Hand into a fit since he's been advocating classic rulerships as of late. He probably wishes he'd never wrote it by now.

In any case, what I believe is that Saturn differs from Earth in terms of magnitude. Saturn & Capricorn have to do with logic & pragmatism with regards to the public sphere, but Earth & Taurus probably have to do with logic & pragmatism within the private sphere: NOT some "cold equation" of what's good for someone "in terms of the many" (or what's good for the many in terms of the few), but what's good for someone, period.

To me, it's no coincidence that the only two signs that fire & earth occupy in the final half of the horoscope are Sagittarius & Capricorn, because both (fire & earth) are very self-oriented energies; those are their last chances at manifesting in the outer world.

On the other hand, only two air & water signs (Gemini & Cancer) exist in the first half of the horoscope because those energies are best suited for the outer world.

In other words, Earth BELONGS "to the self". A definite "keyword" would BE "belonging". Taurus/Earth are where the "self" feels most natural.

Saturn & Capricorn are places where the self tries to INTEGRATE with the outer world, but we all know how unnatural it feels to be in the position of authority or to obey authority (as well).

Something we've ALWAYS wondered (throughout the history of civilization) is why people have a tendency to follow leaders without leading themselves.

And Tauruses exemplify that: a "connection" to the Earth, the idea of being comfortable in one's own skin, and not needing to lead.

In fact, the effect of Taurean transits is to "slow" the transiting object to what feels like a halt; i.e., to force the object to "be itself".

On the other hand, Saturn tends to age whatever it touches before eventually tranisiting through. Many have said that Saturn transits can feel like ossification also, but it's my belief that rather than rigidifying whatever it touches, it simply scours and reinforces it instead. And the chaff that falls off during the process explains the aging.

And while that scouring process can FEEL like paralysis, it's definitely not the role of Saturn to make things stand still (to the contrary, Saturn rules time itself).

So Saturn, Capricorn and leadership aren't "bad". It's just that leadership is a role that should be "thrust" upon people, not something they always look forward to—like the idea of "success". If you think about "success" linguistically, we "succeed" in a "line of succession" only when someone gets fired, gets promoted, dies, or abandons their post.

But Western culture has given way to the idea that success is something that should be chased, not waited for.

So in the end, I guess you could say Saturn is "authority" while Earth is "authenticity".

I'd say the same applies to Earth (as an object): anything Earth (or the IC) aspects will lend a feeling of "inner nature" to the object. Not the emotional comfort of the Moon, but a simpler, physical & matter-of-fact comfort.

This idea about comfort helps you understand the mutual receptivity between Earth & the Moon and how the Moon is exalted in Taurus.

Speaking of which, since Earth would be "in Dominion" in Taurus, that means it would be "in Detriment" in Scorpio.

As far as the position of its Exaltation or Fall, I'm not sure. Though I'm sure it would be something counter-intuitive like with Saturn (which is exalted in Libra). Maybe Earth is exalted in Aquarius and in Fall in Leo?

Anyway, where Earth tends to "go wrong" is in its inability to branch away from the mundane. Whereas other signs & objects may be able to go from concrete operations to abstract operations, Earth's tendency is to avoid that. It's where the abstract goes to die, get buried, and forced to be grown from the ground-up again: the slow, thorough and sometimes painful cycle of life (as opposed to Scorpio's death).

And speaking of its Detriment in Scorpio, this explains its discomfort in that sign: Scorpio is the realm of extremity & pure relativism, where good becomes evil and evil becomes good through some kind of existential post-modernistic twist.

But Pluto needs Taurus just as much as Earth needs Scorpio, so while they tend to "bristle" by being in their opposite signs, there's definitely something to be learned for each of them being there.

By the way, the last generation of Pluto in Taurus (Detriment) children were born between 1853 and 1884, and the next will be born in 2098.

And you can see how the Pluto in Scorpio (Dominion) children (1983 - 1995) are definitely the Millennials who've sent our world into the post-modern relativism that makes us question the authority or authenticity of anything. Which is completely natural for the age of the world wide web and the internet; the event of their emergence is unprecedented in the history of humankind.

As far as Earth being "in Dominion", the chance comes about as often as the Moon, since it has to do with the subject's time of birth more than anything.

Under relatively equal-sized houses (i.e., someone who's born close to the equator), the IC would be in Taurus for people born with Aquarius rising. But without equal sized houses (i.e., someone born in a northern or southern latitude), the IC could fall just about anywhere (because of Earth's axial tilt from that location).

And the opposite would go for Earth "in Detriment" (IC in Scorpio = Leo rising toward the equator, with anyone's guess the further you get away from it).

As for its "Exaltation in Aquarius", maybe that has to do with Earth's disinclination to abstract from a concentric position. Aquarius' natural eccentricity may be just what Earth needs to make that departure from its core. Ideas of a united or global humanity come to play here.

And as to its "Fall in Leo", the combination of Earth and Fire works sometimes, but has traditionally been an uneasy one. Hand comments on this in "Horoscope Symbols":

I honestly think this fall assignment (Earth in Leo) makes sense, since both are "fixed" energies (forming a kind of square tension)… just as Saturn and Aries are both "cardinal" ones.

OKAY—so with that being said, my opinion is that getting in touch with your Venusian or Terrestrial energies is the solution to handling the difficulty of the Mars-Pluto square.

So where's your Earth (IC)?
In which of your houses is Taurus?
What planets do you have in Taurus?
What's the dispositor (ruler) of your Earth (IC)?

Likewise, where's your Venus?
In which of your houses is Libra?
What planets do you have in Libra?
What's the dispositor (ruler) of your Venus?

Once you answer those questions, you can explore how it is that you filter their archetypes and transform them into channels you can send the Plutonic/Martian energy through more distinctly.

IF THAT MAKES SENSE... does it? I hope so.

Of course, I could spend more time explaining Venus or how Earth is the opposite to Pluto, but it seems to me that Mars-Pluto squares are victims of their own tremendous energies and are literally blind to seeing the importance of integrity (Earth) or partnership (Venus) in their lives.

More often than not, "people" are just resources "to be used" in the scheme of their impulses and conquests. So I think it's important that you begin to see what Earth & Venus mean to you particularly.

Also let me know if your Venus or IC (Earth) is conjunct anything. Conjunctions often signify archetypes that the subject has trouble making distinctions between. So if Venus was conjunct, say, Pallas, the subject would see patterns (Pallas) and relationships (Venus) as one and the same, and could benefit greatly from studying the difference between the two.
WOW DOUBLE WOW!! Amazing info on here. I need to take it all in! Well I’ve looked at my Venus and Mars. Earth IC is in cap with mars. Venus in sag 3rd house along with merc 29 degrees and nep. Scorpio is in 3rd too with Uranus. It’s intercepted. So Taurus is intercepted to. Taurus is in 8th and 9th. Chiron is retrograde in 8th.

I don’t think I should go any further as it’s not my thread about me.l and will get told soon lol Can I pm you?

By the way thank you for all this info. It’s amaaaAAazing!! I’m learning lots on this site. Said it before so glad I’ve joined!!
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

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I don’t think I should go any further as it's not my thread about me and will get told soon lol Can I pm you?
Haha; sure thing. Glad I can help.
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Re: Mars opposition Pluto - What are the positives and negative of having that aspect

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Joe Zaza
Thank you again and I really appreciate your time to explain all that to me.
No problem. Hope it resonated or made sense.
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No problem. Hope it resonated or made sense.
Yes it definitely resonated and made sense! Great thanks 🙏 I will pm you now
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