Why Sun And Moon Rule Only One House Each In Traditional Astrology Today

A, you are wedded to whole signs houses. That's clear. But nothing in your thread title or OP makes other traditional house systems off topic.

This board is for traditional western astrology. It is not restricted to Hellenistic astrology. Which so far as that goes included:

1. equal houses (see Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos)

2. Porphyry (233-305 CE)

3. simple descriptions of planets' angularity or falling away from the angles with no emphasis on house cusps.

Do you own a copy of Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology? Highly recommended.

By all means, stick with whole signs if they ring your chimes. But you cannot with integrity insist on them as the only traditional system-- or even as the only Hellenistic system.

You're not going to change traditional astrology by denying the existence of other respected traditional house systems. You're simply going to look like you haven't studied other systems.

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As illustrated


Sun alone determines Day
Sun is NEVER visible at night
and
Sun rules a Day time house
because
Sun is visible ONLY during Day



Unlike Sun
Moon IS visible at night
ONLY because Moon REFLECTS light of Sun

and so

Moon rules a night time house
because
even if
Moon at certain phases MAY BE visible during Day
however
even an almost full moon is nothing close to the brightness of sun
Sun outshines Moon during Day



.

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They don't. They are the King and Queen of the heaven. Zodiacally (I coined this term today) one rules the masculine half and the other rules the feminine half.

HoldOrFold said:

I like to bring this picture out now and again
because

it perfectly illustrates
the symmetry in the traditional planetary rulerships.

Notice in the picture, the planets are in descending order
and the signs follow one after the other.

The co-rulerships are symmetrical.

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HoldOrFold said:

^ If you take some time to really think about that, it's pretty amazing.

- In general, I have found in personal cases that

people tend to embody their traditional ruling planet
As for Saturn ruling Aquarius, consider these points:

- Aquarius is cold and aloof
- Aquarius is about the community

(community is structured, bound by traditions and regulations)
- Aquarius is opposite Leo, the ego, ruled by the Sun.

Saturn is furthest away from the Sun.
Opposite to ego
(communal again)
- Just like Capricorn expands materially
using Saturn's laws of boundaries and structures
Aquarius does so to but more so with ideas and concepts.
These signs are not stagnating in Saturn
they understand and make use of it
and there is growth happening in their sphere of influence.

- Saturn is exalted in Libra.
Thinking about that for awhile
helps you
to break loose from
the typical doom and gloom associated
with Saturn
and
understand it's rulership over Aquarius.

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Thank You for your Explanation!!!

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We cannot really conflate signs and houses even in a traditional whole signs house system, because the "dial" is going to vary depending upon the rising sign. With Cancer rising, for example, we don't get a by-the-numbers ordering of signs and houses. We get the first house with the 4th sign. I don't know if it's worth getting into signs of long and short ascension. Just that signs take different periods of time to rise above the horizon, unless you're at the equator.
The whole signs chart gives the impression of the day divided into 12 equal blocks of 2 hours each, but actually, due to the earth's tilt on its axis, the signs take different periods of time to completely rise above the horizons. (The ancient Greeks worked this out using spherical geometry.) Then see the current thread by Ecliptique on the problems of reading charts for people born at very high latitudes at certain times of year. This is just a basic question of lengths of day and night varying with latitude. So a planet might be in-sect in a low latitude in winter, for example, but if you go much further north, that situation could change because it gets dark earlier at high latitudes.

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re: the application of genuine whole sign methods to chart delineation

Cusps:



Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

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Thank You for your explanation

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The sun and moon rule signs, not houses.

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On the contrary

There is much mess and confusion in the area of the so-called "...houses...."

can then fall ANYWHERE IN THE FIRST HOUSE

Placidus is simply the default

Sect is indeed a more complex topic than a simplistic day-night chart dichotomy implies.

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aka Faction

.....about sect, I do think it is of great relevance.

Sect is based on the concept of day(masculine) and night(femenine) as mossadrai stated, and its one of the core principles in which astrology is founded. This principle classifies signs into 2 distinct sets: diurnal signs (fire and air) and nocturnl signs (water and earth).

- Diurnal planets (Sun, Jupiter, Saturn) are by default out of sect in every nocturnal chart.
- Nocturnal planets (Moon, Venus, Mars) are by default out of sect in every diurnal chart.
- Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect if it rises as a morning star, and of the nocturnal sect if it sets as an evening star.

You may also notice that diurnal planets rule diurnal(male) triplicity signs, and nocturnal planets rule nocturnal(female) triplicity signs. Sect in itself derives into the reason as to why "trines" and "sextiles" are generally seen as "easy" aspects because they unite planets in signs of the same sect.

The part about the in-sect planets being above the horizon is the explanation to the concept of Hayz, in which a planet is better suited when above the horizon, and in a sign of its own sect. The implication is that the planets can express its qualities better this way, because the 7th-12th axis is connected to the exterior world. Consider that most of the more powerful and weak houses are all on this axis except for the "1st" house (7th/10th/11th an 8th/12th). Being in a sign of its own sect also makes the qualities of the planet better expressed, because the planet combines well with the sign.

I consider the principle of sect of great importance in chart reading even today. It provides information relevant to the planet.

For example, when we judge a problematic chart we always look at the out of sect malefic, which has the most potential for trouble on the chart, Saturn for night charts, and Mars for diurnal charts. The same applies for the benefic planets when looking for favourable placements, with Jupiter being particularly benefic in diurnal charts, and Venus being particularly benefic in nocturnal charts. A trine or sextile from a planet to your in sect benefic is considered a very good placement. A square or opposition to your out of sect malefic is considered a very bad placement.

Personally I do use the concept of sect, heavily in birth charts because it is the core stone of astrological principle. Pretty much every astrological concept is derived from sect.

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Sun alone determines Day
Sun is NEVER visible at night
Sun is visible ONLY during Day


Moon IS visible at night
ONLY because Moon REFLECTS light of Sun
Moon at certain phases MAY BE visible during Day
however
is nothing close to the brightness of sun



Think about the word "...Sect...." and its connotations
as BobZemco said:
A Sect is comparable to a Faction
which is a group of people acting together
within a larger group
such as a clan, a clique, a cabal, a bloc
for example the East Bloc: a faction, a sect, sub-set of Europe
i.e.
a band of people, a crew and so on


Astrology is based on ordered hierarchies
like charts
and then groups of Planets
such as
the Nocturnal Planets
and
the Diurnal Planets

the Masculine Planes
and
the Feminine Planes


the Cold Planets
and
the Hot Planets, and so on.



SECT has two factions:


the Diurnal Planets are the Day Crew
the Day Shift
the Day Cabal
the Day Bloc
the Day Clan and so on


and

the Nocturnal Planets are the Night Crew
Night Shift
Night Cabal
Night Bloc
Night Clan and so on.


Note that each Faction has A LIGHT:

Sun for Day
Moon for Night
and
because of that, they have different conditions to meet.

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but they are more helpful and less harmful

In the case of the lesser malefic MARS
and
the greater malefic SATURN
both are less malefic when in sect
than they would otherwise be when not in sect.

and
similarly

lesser benefic VENUS
and
greater benefit JUPITER
are both more benefic when in sect
than they would otherwise be when not in sect



So, it's a helpful versus harmful placement.

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Osamenor said:

All,

I just deleted several off topic and, in some cases, attacking posts from this thread. This is an astrological thread. Stick to astrology. Comments about other posters are non-astrological and can all too easily become attacks.

On the subject of houses, if you, as an OP, want to restrict your discussion to whole sign, you need to make that clear in your first post and/or the thread title. As waybread points out, whole sign is not the only house system used by traditional astrologers. While a case can be made that it's the oldest house system and therefore the most traditional, it's not the only house system that qualifies for discussion on the Traditional Astrology board. The mere fact that this is a traditional astrology thread does not make other house systems off topic.

That said, the real topic of this thread appears to be Sun and Moon house rulership. Spending many posts on house systems is a diversion, at the very least.

Back on topic, attack free,
Osamenor

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Thank you! Sun/Moon ruling just one house each IS the topic

Osamenor said:

All,

I just deleted several off topic and, in some cases, attacking posts from this thread. This is an astrological thread. Stick to astrology. Comments about other posters are non-astrological and can all too easily become attacks.

On the subject of houses, if you, as an OP, want to restrict your discussion to whole sign, you need to make that clear in your first post and/or the thread title. As waybread points out, whole sign is not the only house system used by traditional astrologers. While a case can be made that it's the oldest house system and therefore the most traditional, it's not the only house system that qualifies for discussion on the Traditional Astrology board. The mere fact that this is a traditional astrology thread does not make other house systems off topic.

That said, the real topic of this thread appears to be Sun and Moon house rulership. Spending many posts on house systems is a diversion, at the very least.

Back on topic, attack free,
Osamenor

JUPITERASC said:

Thank you! Sun/Moon ruling just one house each IS the topic

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JUPITERASC said:

Thank you! Sun/Moon ruling just one house each IS the topic



.

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