Did Russian Separatists shoot down MH17?

tikana

Well-known member
Summerly

Knowing Russian politics, if they are giving weaponry to the rebels are more than likely are funded by Kremlin and uncle Vlad. Knowing that Russia is interested in splitting the country apart, nothing will surprise me. Ohh i should mention that the Chechen vet had come out on TV pretty much saying that bodies were not fresh. The plane was loaded with dead bodies and the fact that one of the largest newspapers HAVE NOT said anything about MH 17 and http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...irlines-mh17-crash-coverage-article-1.1871924
Give me 1 reason to believe that Russia is not directly responsible! If the order from Kremlin was to shot down planes hovering over Ukrainian/Russian border, all hell will break loose. Dutch PM swore he will do everything he can to bring whoever did it to justice. Ukraine got black boxes at least they are not in Russian hands! Russia always treated Ukraine like 2nd class.

Russian army sits on the border waiting to invade same sh*t as they pulled in Georgia. I am not a fan of Georgia because everytime Georgia is under an attack from some Islamic state they hide under Russian skirt. Russia wants Crimea because of access to Black Sea. In USSR, there was Black Sea naval base.

I should also mention that for more than 48 hours Soviet/Russian govt did not say anything about Chernobyl reactor 4 nuclear meltdown until Sweden registered the radiation in their nuclear plant and US satellite just passed 5 seconds after the explosion captured the photos. You can google that. I just DO NOT trust anything comes out of that KGB dictator's mouth. Either the blame on the US and will do anything to wash their hands on any tragedy.

Kursk one of the most powerful submarines in the world had a faulty torpedo that exploded inside of the shaft just before it exited into "hot water" (water is not hot it is a term) it exploded. Russia UNDER PUTIN tried to blame it on the American sub which was almost 3 times smaller and was hanging in the nato port for repairs somehow got blamed for Kursk. The rumor is still alive online that Americans sank Kursk. Google that one!

Ukrainian former president Yanukovich is hiding in Russia and Russia will not extradite him to Ukraine for ruining the country not that Yushenko was any good. Russia is trying to be imperialist as they tried to pull with Warsaw pact and formation of USSR. This is recent history, i am not even touching Romanoffs.

i think it will be treated as crime against the humanity + if there is a solid case that Russia DID order for military shoot downs *I can see charges under Hague* like aiding a terror act to take place.
 
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Summery Joy

Well-known member
Well, we agree. Russia is behind this (which really doesn't need horary to confirm). What's that about the dead bodies not being fresh?
 

tikana

Well-known member
read the link i gave you.. typical russia .. somehow this will turn around into the US set the whole thing up with CIA help or Ukraine got help from the US to orchestrate

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html

I found a horary on Ukranian horary board with "is my govt *ukraine* responsible for MH17?" answer was no. Interestingly enough it fell on Jupiter/Merc axis.

If you want to run this question on your end go ahead

From the looks of it it was ran from Kiev.
See again we see extremely weak Jupiter in fixed sign and in 6th house cadent - incapable of doing anything!

July 18 2014
21:28
Kiev Ukraine
8 Aqua rising

Some South Korean helicopter crashed in the middle of a city .. so far 5 people died
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ea-killing-five-crew.html?ito=social-facebook


T
 

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astr0quest

Well-known member
You can't incriminate russia like that. Even if asteroid russia conjuncts Saturn, the aspects aren't doing much to it.


asteroid Ukraina is conjuncting Mercury.
 

tikana

Well-known member
You can't incriminate russia like that. Even if asteroid russia conjuncts Saturn, the aspects aren't doing much to it.


asteroid Ukraina is conjuncting Mercury.

my problem with asteroids is many of them are named after people who find them or the country of origin. http://www.planetary.org/get-involved/contests/osirisrex/guidelines.html

the other issue is not so long ago Ceres, Pallas, Juno and Vista were classified as planets YES way before Pluto's demotion.

Asteroid Israel has absolutely nothing to do with Israel the country. The astronomer who found it was from Netherlands .. his LAST name was Israel.

Asteroid Ukraina was discovered by a ukranian/soviet astronomer Shajn. He was born in Odessa Ukraine.

that is why i do not trust asteroid astrology.

T
 

KatyaVelikaya

Well-known member
read the link i gave you.. typical russia .. somehow this will turn around into the US set the whole thing up with CIA help or Ukraine got help from the US to orchestrate
T

The CIA *has been funding* the protestors for decades... and the USA has supported the rebels. But you wont find that in the US press for the most part, they're intent to throw the blame elsewhere.
 

Marinka

Well-known member
The CIA *has been funding* the protestors for decades... and the USA has supported the rebels. But you wont find that in the US press for the most part, they're intent to throw the blame elsewhere.

Not sure I understand this statement. USA has been known in the past to fund rebels/protestors when the government of the country does not have the ideological bent of the US. In this case, the separatists are Pro-russian and I cannot see why the US would have been funding them. Can you explain or provide links to where this is detailed?

As to the named asteroids ... frankly I don't think much research work has been done one way or another to prove their links to events.
 

tikana

Well-known member
The CIA *has been funding* the protestors for decades... and the USA has supported the rebels. But you wont find that in the US press for the most part, they're intent to throw the blame elsewhere.


of course ..keep listening to uncle Volodya LOL are you thinking what you are saying?????
russian #1 enemy has ALWAYS been England. the US only got involved into the configuration thanks to Stalin after ww2. US bailed USSR with an unconditional loan in ww2. if you have no idea what i am talking about sit down and study Russian/English problematic relationship and STOP humiliating **** good educational institutions of St Petersburg and Moscow with this bloody uneducated NONSENSE.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Not sure I understand this statement. USA has been known in the past to fund rebels/protestors when the government of the country does not have the ideological bent of the US. In this case, the separatists are Pro-russian and I cannot see why the US would have been funding them. Can you explain or provide links to where this is detailed?

As to the named asteroids ... frankly I don't think much research work has been done one way or another to prove their links to events.

The US is not funding rebels to go against Russia. the US'interests ARE NOT to destabilize Russia. There are a lot of big name businesses are having businesses in Russia like Google. It makes no logical sense other than in a paranoid mind to help the rebels to trigger a war against russia. Russian army is still behind the US in numbers and quality of stuff that the military eq they are using since there are good engineers in Russia left for the west.

I will tell you one thing WHEN something bad happens in Russia, immediately the #1 suspicion falls on the US. Want an example? here.
in 2000 one of the biggest newer submarines (nuclear submarine) Kursk sunk due to a faulty torpedo that failed to exit out of the shaft and exploded inside. (The same incident withe a very similar torpedo happened in England but the sailors were able to escape because the accident happened in shallow waters. I think it was in 70s anyway). Everyone on Kursk perished because Russia was not equipped with emergency plans. The sub's length was very close to their location's depth. In another words, if the sub had been standing on its nose, people could get out with an ease. What did Putin do? NOTHING. not a single attempt to get 22 guys out who survived the initial blast. Norway immediately offered help. Putin - we will get them out. During the training, near by in the Nato base an american submarine which was smaller it its size and not nuclear was going through repairs, guess what uncle Vlad starts feeding the media with.. "American submarine sunk our submarine!" US along with NATO rejected that notion and said absolutely not true. To this day no one really knows what happened cause uncle Volodya yet again managed to cover up and orchestrated the rumor that the US sunk Kursk. Ask a russia who sank Kursk .. you will hear a reply "of course Americans who else!"
 
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KatyaVelikaya

Well-known member
The Ukraine situation is not a Team 1 vs Team 2 situation which is why the media oversimplification is a problem for starters. If you read or followed the initial developments in February this year -- actually starting from about ten years ago to give it context -- it becomes clear who the factions are. When Yanukovych chose to pursue closer ties with Russia, the US got scared. The US doesn't want Ukraine close to Russia. It wants access to the gas pipeline, bc he who controls the gas controls the profits. As one example Belgium gets something like 90% of its gas from Russia via the Ukraine pipeline. There is something like 15 other EU or eastern EU countries in similar situations, some of which rely on Russia 100% for their gas. If Ukraine partners with Russia, since much of its population are native Russians and have been considered "brethren" for centuries, that upsets the USA who automatically will suggest that Russia is trying to take over Ukraine. Russia doesnt need Ukraine. But Ukraine needs help -- money and resources.

It is in the US' interest to prop up a Ukrainian government that is anti Russian, just as every single news article since 1940 has been anti-Russian. It IS in the US interests to destabilize Russia because then they can take over even more of the world (Iraq Iran Syria etc). It is true that the RU army is weaker and there are many internal problems but unlike the US there is not a trazillion billion dollar federal deficit and RU is not worried about propping up the ruble as the world's dominant currency (bc it never will be). By destabilizing Ukrainian's government, the US can put someone in power who they control and who will vote on the side of the US against Russia in any international proposals.

To Marika's question, no, I did not mean that the CIA was funding the "pro Russian" separatists -- it was funding the ANTI Russia militia trained to murder civilians (storming of ProfSoyuz building in early May). There is the Kiev government, the US-backed fighters just mentioned, and what the media terms "pro Russian" which are Ukrainians who do not want to be part of Ukraine.
 

tikana

Well-known member
Listen, i will bluntly tell you ....

RUSSIA NEVER EVER had any interests in developing normal relationships WITH ANY country on equal terms within Russia, Russian' infostruction is in ruins and has been since Stalin died. Economy under Stalin was rock solid. Russian Ruble was more valuable than American dollar. It lasted for about a year but it was def a fact. Russia/USSR has always been " MINE MINE MINE!" Ask East Germans or Poles how they feel about USSR/Russia? It took what ehmm 28 years to bring up East Germany to West German standards or quite franky with any former Warsaw Pact countries? Baltic countries cannot stand Russians because they dont learn the native languages of the land. CAN YOU BLAME THEM? Ohh wait, Germans are still working in Eastern German side fixing things!
I should mention my other favorite country, Finland, back in the 90s when Finland wanted to join EU, a question of Karelia came up. EU said "you have to drop your interest in Karelia if you want to join EU" so a few econ and computer sci people at university of helsinki did an estimation how much would it cost to upgrade 100+ years old infostructure in russian karelia. They came up with a number that almost match current US deficit.

As far as Ukraine lol they are much better off being with EU than with narcissistic Russia. Russia needs Ukraine to control. It's all about great power status. Russia all Mighty here comes Putin's attempt to be Peter the Great! my azz! At least Peter the Great got Russia off her knees and built St. Petersburg. What does Putin do? NOTHING!!!! Infostructure is non-existent, the farming the solid foundation of Russian soul NON EXISTENT. have you been to the supermarket lately ??? how much krap is made anywhere but in Russia on the shelves?! If you are so pro Russia and the US is bad, why are you still holding on to US citizenship? If and when sh*t hit the fan in Russia, you can bolt back to the US in the safety zone?

Ukraine got coal! Come on... If Ukraine lets Germans in, solar power will fuel Ukraine! Ukraine can get gas and oil from Norway, come up with something better. US can even fuel Ukraine if they really want it. Your Russian "They cannot live without us" mentality is sinking faster than titanic. Ukraine held on to Russia because Russia gave them discount on gas/oil! that is all! your putin is behaving like Hitler. The only way to bring down russia at this point is to drive oil prices to the bottom the same way as it happened in 1989-1990 before the collapse of USSR. Putin's Russia at this point is like a black bubonic plague to Ukraine.

"It is in the US' interest to prop up a Ukrainian government that is anti Russian, just as every single news article since 1940 has been anti-Russian. It IS in the US interests to destabilize Russia because then they can take over even more of the world (Iraq Iran Syria etc)."
Are you completely out of your mind? You have been sitting in russia a bit too long! Russia IS NOT stable, PERIOD! The only thing that keeps Russia afloat is OIL/GAS industry. THAT'S ALL! Russia is buying OIL from IRAN +/-400,000 barrels a day! Iraq / Iran bs is on British's hands US has to deal with it just because that is how things are.

Syria? Stop drinking samogon! we are not involved! 0 troops on the ground or in the air in Syrian conflict AT ALL! Find me 1 legit source where you have US involvement in Syria. I wanna hear this one!

Top 10 US Exports to Russia

America's exports to Russia amounted to
$11.2 billion or 0.7% of overall US exports

1. Machines, engines, pumps: $2.3 billion
2. Vehicles: $2 billion
3. Aircraft, spacecraft: $2 billion
4. Electronic equipment: $674.2 million
5. Medical, technical equipment: $659.9 million - RUSSIA at this point CANNOT and IS NOT capable of performing simple surgeries such as repairing a chamber in a heart, for instance.
6. Plastics: $378.7 million - made out of russian oil!
7. Meat: $323.9 million - See my #9 comment
8. Inorganic chemicals: $237 million
9. Fruits, nuts: $222.6 million --- this is to a country with the LARGEST fertile soil in the world! Are you bloody joking me?!
10. Other chemical goods: $199.3 million

Are you telling me that Russia cannot produce all that stuff on its own? Your RUSSIA is still depending on so much hated the West and the US. When your country will start producing 1 through 10 on its own, then we will talk. Otherwise, your argument is nothing but russian media blame on why russia is failing. Whoever can get out of Russia, they do and run businesses and get education elsewhere. Russia is exporting oil/gas/minerals but it cannot build a car that would be allowed to drive here in the US.. Good luck getting Lada through DMV! LOL Russian auto industry is so bad that prostitutes do not ever want to "work" in russian made cars! Why does RUSSIA have to export precious minerals to the west just to buy them back at 1000% overprice?

Before blaming the US or the west for what they do *rolls eyes* look around St petersburg and tell me what is RUSSIAN people doing to Russia? Need an answer? Hint - turn on your tv and tell me how much "western influence" on every show on russian TV. What kind of cars do people drive in Russia? German, American, Japanese made. Poor people - Russian. Take a look at today's buildings all West style, people wearing WEST labels, people vacation anywhere but Russia! WHY? One of the richest Russian people in the world owns British soccer team. Russian language is infested with English words / American slang - WHY? No other language besides Russian, Finnish, and German has so many twists and turns. Go outside of St Petersburg to any village, they still got outhouses - pre-revolutionary houses! Rent a car and drive from st petersburg to moscow -- I drove through that path LOL. If this sh*t happened in Germany, German people would overthrow their own govt for treason!

The bottom line is before adopting Zhirinovsky's style of thinking (how much i love that guy) about America is invading Russia through economic sanctions and political influence with a goal to destabilize Russia, get Russian people to do something for their own country rather than for themselves. The US really has a lot to do to destabilize Russia on its own. like penetrating into Tula or city like Tiksi LOL.

YOU STILL failed to answer my question. DID RUSSIA BLAME THE US FOR SINKING KURSK? try to come up with anything other than a YES on this.

ohh wait i forgot 1 minor detail. Black Sea has natural gas .. since Russia took Crimea right there there are a few spots with natural gas on the bottom of Black Sea. So russia is seriously trying to sufficate Ukranian economy esp with trying to control Donetsk (coal) so drive the country to similar situation as they did with Holodomor. Please tell me russia is not a terrorist here.
:cool:


BTW, everyone, i have been hanging on russian forums for all sort of topics.. and it is exact the same mentality as KV's. "EU cannot live without Russia, Ukraine is worthless." Does this sound like something we saw ehmm in about lets see 1930s? ohh yeah .. rise of Nazi Germany I guess we are slowly looking at rising of 3rd Reich made in Russland version. Russia, congratulations! "да здравствует Furher Пу́тин!" / "All hail to Putin!"
 
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astr0quest

Well-known member
my problem with asteroids is many of them are named after people who find them or the country of origin. http://www.planetary.org/get-involved/contests/osirisrex/guidelines.html

the other issue is not so long ago Ceres, Pallas, Juno and Vista were classified as planets YES way before Pluto's demotion.

Asteroid Israel has absolutely nothing to do with Israel the country. The astronomer who found it was from Netherlands .. his LAST name was Israel.

Asteroid Ukraina was discovered by a ukranian/soviet astronomer Shajn. He was born in Odessa Ukraine.

that is why i do not trust asteroid astrology.

T


Just because you have poor understanding of how things work, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

People knew of Pluto's existence before it was discovered.

Pluto was also named by a little girl, in a contest. She wasn't named Pluto, nor did she knew Pluto in person.

Why are you using Pluto in astrology then?
 

tikana

Well-known member
Just because you have poor understanding of how things work, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

People knew of Pluto's existence before it was discovered.

Pluto was also named by a little girl, in a contest. She wasn't named Pluto, nor did she knew Pluto in person.

Why are you using Pluto in astrology then?


??? your argument makes absolutely no sense. http://www.planetary.org/get-involved/contests/osirisrex/guidelines.html
I don't really use Pluto or anything post saturn since i am only doing trad horary. Pluto was only discovered 80 years ago. Telescopes before that into mid 19th century were not capable of locating Pluto so tech speaking i can tell you there is something past Kuiper's belt but I have no idea what! Percival Lowell in 1908ish had access to a telescope in Flagstaff Az where he studied Mars and pondered about planet x. to make long story short, he found Pluto. There are bunch of planets like pluto in Kuipers belt BUT Pluto is the largest object in the belt.

you CANNOT compare a dwarf planet to an asteroid.. NOT ONLY because asteroid ONLY appears to a human view WHEN it leaves sun's rays but a planet absolutely has to have its own gravity. Pluto has its own gravity see Chiron which rotates around Pluto. Chiron is Pluto's moon just like ours in relations with Earth. A planet cannot be moved out of the orbit where as an asteroid can be rerouted either by crossing another planet's gravity (see Jupiter incident) or colliding with another asteroid see Belt of Asteroids *between mars and jupiter* .. a planet is a solar object that has thermonuclear fusion .. asteroids DONT! In Lehman's terms .. an asteroid eventhough may have a fixed path but not always sticks to it sometimes they go astray and get pulled into a gravity of another solar object. Therefore they are not reliable in astrological prediction.. Also there was a lawsuit involving a Russia astrologer who tried to sue NASA for using an asteroid to change its course.. an astrologer sued NASA stating that since NASA changed the path of an asteroid ... they changed its natural route.
 
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KatyaVelikaya

Well-known member
Letter from the Director of the Center for Citizen Initiatives, a US-based organization with over 30 years of US-Russian/Soviet Relations experience at both civilian and governmental levels:

Regarding the international disaster with the Malaysian aircraft exploding over eastern Ukraine, I'm deeply grieved and worried: first, for the victims on the plane; second, for the fact this disaster may never be solved; leaving blame to be projected on whichever side one champions; and third, in any case …. Russia catches the brunt of US-European condemnation for an accident they would have done anything to prevent. Logic tells me that after Putin has spent weeks urging negotiations, turning the cheek to US condemnations, in no way would Russia have put air-to-ground missiles that could reach 33,000 in the air in the hands of unskilled east Ukrainian soldiers. And for what reason would they ever consider shooting down a passenger plane far overhead?

So these are some questions:

Was it for sure a ground-to-air missile?
Or was it an air-to-air missile? Did one or both sides have missiles that could strike at 33,000 feet?
Was there another plane in the vicinity which could have carried out an air-to-air strike?
Who will gain from this tragedy? Who has the most to lose?
What is the world outside the US and Europe thinking saying about this latest debacle?
Are they suspicious of fowl play?
Is it worth it to start a regional war when no one can predict the unintended consequences––such as this disaster?

I'm reminded of a couple of days in 1983 after the 007 Korean airliner was shot down over Sakhalin Islands. I was an RN in an ICU room in Alexian Brothers Hospital in San Jose. A comatose Korean patient was my patient for the night. In the darkened room a large American was standing watch. He turned out to be my patient's "brother-in-law." (The entire story is in my book.) The 007 had just been blown out of the sky by the Soviets for trespassing over their Pacific fleet of submarines during maneuvers. The big American was JJ Gresham, retired CIA pilot. When he revealed his background, I asked what he knew about the 007. He said the plane had a "belly" full of intelligence-gathering equipment as did many of the South Korean planes.
The day before the San Francisco Chronicle carried a blurb saying that South Korean planes were routinely outfitted with intelligence-gather instruments at Andrews Air Force Base––and then it was never printed again. JJ casually remarked that clearly the plane was on a reconnaissance mission. Shocked, I asked why he would divulge such information to a stranger like me. He replied, "The whole world will know within a week, too many people are aware of this to cover it up." Actually the information never came out. Apparently a passenger plane of 269 souls was sacrificed to gather intelligence. The USSR was demonized hour after hour, day after day, month after month, in mainstream media––and if JJ was correct, those who knew simply kept silent. I just checked Internet to update myself on the "incident." IT's still a question whether it was gathering intelligence or a regular flight off course.



Hopefully, the evidence on the Malaysian plane will emerge soon––but it may not. In any case, it's obvious that the march is on to consolidate the demonization of Russia and Putin …. never considering that it was State Department's Victoria Nuland and other US officials who pushed this war into existence. Please remember that the Southeast Ukrainians, referred to by US mainstream media as "terrorists, secessionists, rebels", are simple Ukrainians in the Southeast who are trying to protect their homes, farms, businesses, cities and their right to use the Russian language in their everyday affairs. They are not going outside of their territory to fight anyone––they are just trying to protect their lives as they have lived them for decades. The Ukrainian troops from the other side of Ukraine, have taken a fighting force, tanks and artillery, and marched across Ukraine (larger than Texas) where they are doing battle with the local Ukrainians who live there. This new government that supposedly is making all of these decisions, is barely a month old.

None of this would be happening across Ukraine, including the Malaysian airplane disaster, had it not been for the outside encouragement and money. We need to ask some serious questions. The top one should be: does interfering in the affairs of other countries, creating chaos and destabilization, ever end up well for their people?

Sharon
 

Tham

Well-known member
Uhhhh just a correction here. The Separatists in Ukraine are not Russian. I've spent the past 10 years in Russia for the most part, and the Western (US) media is not portraying the full story. In fact they're not even portraying 10% of the truth.

Ukraine shot down a plane (Malaysian Airlines) that resembles almost identically the Rossiya Airlines commercial planes. In other words, anti-Russian/pro-Ukrainian separatists, which have been funded by a sector of the CIA since the 1950s, shot down a plane that they thought would be carrying Russian passengers. It turned out to be Malaysian Air (OOPS) and not Russian.




Yes, I did think initially that the Western media had been feeding disinformation
and that it was actually two Ukrainian Su-27 fighters which had shot down MH17
with one or two radar-guided R-27R (Nato AA-10 Alamo) missiles.

It could not have been the R-27T or smaller R-73, (AA-11 Archer) heatseekers,
because these would just have knocked out the engines.

But now this is just getting a little bit confusing.

You mean the rebels in Ukraine are actually anti-Russian, pro-Ukrainian,
and not the other way around ?

And these rebels, or was it the Ukrainian government army, fired Ukrainian
older moder SA-11s (BUK-M1) surface-to-air missiles at the airlner ?
 
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Tham

Well-known member
Regarding the visual misidentification of the plane as that as one of Rossiya Airlines,
might you have any source or links for this ?


Firstly, it obviously would have been impossible for it to have been seen by the
separatists or Ukrainian army personnel on the ground manning a SAM system,
who were 33,000 feet below.

The separatists, if they knew how to read the radar display, or the trained Ukrainian
radar operators, would have noted the civilian transponder code being squawked
by the airliner on Mode C, but would not know which country it belonged to.



Secondly, even if they had (mistakenly) identified it as Rossiya Airlines, would the Ukrainians
have even dared to take out a Russian airliner packed with Russian civilians, which would have
been an act of war against Russia ?



'' There's a technical fix that could help ensure other civilian airliners aren't shot down. ''

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/ukraine-antiaircraft-idUSL2N0PT1F620140718

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-deba...ure-other-civilian-airliners-arent-shot-down/



'' Did the Ukrainian rebels even know they were shooting at a civilian aircraft ? ''

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ow-they-were-shooting-at-a-civilian-aircraft/
 
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Culpeper

Premium Member
Everyone should be careful not to fall for the media propaganda that the black operation firms are pushing. A bomb is a very good theory for the loss of MH17 and the main media do not mention it all as possibility. Looking at this with astrology, Remote Viewing and other paranormal means my conclusion is that a bomb was on board and timed to go off over the Ukraine.
 

rahu

Banned
The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefully exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward

http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-co...rect-b4in.info&utm_term=http://b4in.info/bbsr
rahu
 
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