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Unread 05-03-2016, 12:36 AM
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Astrology and Narcissism

I'll guarantee there's already a thread on this, but I'm too lazy to look through all of them.

What chart aspects or placements lead to narcissism? I've become fascinated with narcissism and I've done a little research and heres what I've got.

General Narcissistic Traits--

Magical Thinking
Arrogance
Envy
Entitlement
Exploitation
Lack Boundaries
Shame-based personaltiy
Rejection of the Real Self in exchange for a beholded false self
Narcissistic Supply - Attention, adulation, affection, praise, etc... (Self-esteem regulation)


Heres some placement ideas for Narcissism

Narcissus (37117)
You can tell by the name..Basically if this astroid touches something personal in your chart, or something personal in another persons chart, then you'll be narcissistic.

Echo (60)
Echo represents giving yourself away to others. Your personality is "echoed" in another person. Echo shows narcissism because she is essentially rejecting her real self by craving affection and love from another person to feed her false self.
So if echo touches something personal, could also be narcissistic, but an inverted narcissism

Zodiac Signs
I don't think zodiac signs determine if someone is narcissistic really, but it's something to think about.

Aquarius - Sun in the 11th
detachment
associated with the god complex ("I'm above all or special")
genius or intelligent - triggers the "above all"
opposite of Leo, an outward friendship rather than inner. Focusing on your outer world means you don't have to get deep or in intimacy; easy narcissistic supply, especially by doing charity or performing in large groups and organizations

Libra - Sun in the 7th
similar to echo... Libra seems to be a little fake--shaping themselves just so they can be liked or have friendships--rejecting the true self

Strong Leo Placements (for obvious reasons)

Aspects
North Node conjunct Sun
North node is agressive and wants to take shortcuts
The north node is destiny and isn't achieved until later, so the person could develop narcissism I guess

VENUS-PLUTO
This aspect seems to be the most influencial in determining narcissism. Usually narcissist aren't found unless you are in a relationship with one
Venus is about relationships of course and when aspect by pluto it triggers insecurities and or a sense of rejection either in yourself or in relationships bringing our defense mechanisms such as narcissism.

I've seen Venus Pluto and Pluto in general come up a bit
In a personal relationship where I accused someone of being a narcissist we had this as an EXACT negative aspect

And astrologers with these websites have claimed so that pluto or venus/pluto mean narcissism

These websites claim that Pluto has a huge influence regarding narcissism
http://www.thespiritualeclectic.com/...-in-the-stars/

http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/na...elf-rejection/

http://angstoic.com/2015/03/pluto-and-narcissism/


Lastly as my personal opinions
Neptune-Sun Aspect and Pluto-Sun or Moon

Narcissists are extremely delusional and lack boundaries. Similar to Neptune and Sun lacking boundaries and being aware of their ego.
This aspect has a lot to do with imagination and wanting to live the grander and more glamorized life. Like a narcissist and their fantasies

Pluto-Sun, Pluto-Moon triggers a need to be powerful and manipulative or in control because of some underlying fear, especially fear of intimacy


Those are just some ideas

Tell me what you think both objectively and biased!! Tell me personal stories of narcissists you know, or think you know are narcissists, and their charts

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Unread 05-03-2016, 01:21 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

There's a good thread going on right now here about NPD.
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Unread 05-03-2016, 01:23 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
There's a good thread going on right now here about NPD.
Oh, thank you!
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Unread 06-10-2016, 07:25 AM
Imperial1922 Imperial1922 is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

i agree with what you say.

also i would like to add sun-jupiter hard aspects as they expand your ego, which can make for a very narcisstic personality. whats the difference between mars/pluto and venus/pluto? wouldnt they have a somewhat similar effect?
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Unread 06-10-2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial1922 View Post
i agree with what you say.

also i would like to add sun-jupiter hard aspects as they expand your ego, which can make for a very narcisstic personality. whats the difference between mars/pluto and venus/pluto? wouldnt they have a somewhat similar effect?
Any planet aspect to the sun seems like it could be narcissistic. But Sun conjunct jupiter makes a lot of sense.


Mars pluto could work I guess, but according to the websites above and what I've seen it hasn't been a prominent indicator. Venus pluto seems more important because venus has a lot to do with self-esteem, pleasure seeking, and relationships. Narcissism seems to always relate to venus related factors.
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Unread 06-11-2016, 10:41 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

I think the true narcissist is someone who is totally unconscious of the effect they have on others.
they are so defensive and needy that they cannot extend any sympathy to others.
their goal is to be happy.
But usually THIS is a key issue in their chart. they have aspects which show that happiness is always elusive.
Neptune is usually very powerful. Usually there's a 12th house planet. Something in their childhood was "missing" and they spend their whole lives trying to retrieve it.
They seem to have no sense of guilt when they leave broken hearts or people in their wake.
they believe that this or that will make them happy and when it doesn't work out that way they can only blame others.
they do not see their own culpability.

I will try to post the chart of a true narcissist.
LIN
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Unread 06-11-2016, 10:49 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Here's a chart of a guy who seems to be a prime leader in the study of narcissism and he is a narcissist himself!!! His name is Sam Vaknin.



Two things...

He has Sun square Jupiter

His Sun is on the Aries and Taurus cusp. This doesn't necessarily mean narcissism, but I know that Hitler had an Aries Taurus cusp and I know two other people who had the Aries Taurus cusp that seem very narcissistic.
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Unread 07-01-2016, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Here's a chart of a guy who seems to be a prime leader in the study of narcissism and he is a narcissist himself!!! His name is Sam Vaknin.



Two things...

He has Sun square Jupiter

His Sun is on the Aries and Taurus cusp. This doesn't necessarily mean narcissism, but I know that Hitler had an Aries Taurus cusp and I know two other people who had the Aries Taurus cusp that seem very narcissistic.
When I look at his chart I immediately see one thing that would indicate a strong ego, in the worst way. He does have Lilith in leo... Lilith just kind of adds some bad karma wherever she goes. They can absolutely be taken over by their vanity and need to dominate others. Lilith in leo is the epitome of narcissism in the chart.
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Unread 08-21-2016, 09:15 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

My younger sister could be described as narcissistic . She was indulged as a child, and my parents (especially my dad who had Sun opp Jupiter) let her get away with behaviors that should have been corrected. She grew up with a sense of entitlement and thinking she was special. Not much has changed decades later.
She has Sun conj Pluto & Venus in 8th, and I'm also looking at her Moon square Venus= immaturity.
Narcissism is a result of parenting . Teaching awareness of others & empathy, can only come from spending quality time & energy with one's child (but of course one can't pass on what one has never learned, and often one or both parents are that way).
Narcissism is only going to become more & more prevalent as the quality of parenting has steeply declined, and young people are increasingly exposed to narcissistic behavior in the outside world via toxic pop culture which is getting worse & worse.

Last edited by WHYNOT; 08-21-2016 at 09:31 PM.
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Unread 08-23-2016, 01:02 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

This is very anecdotal. A few cherry picked results, really. I'd take it with a grain of salt but I also do find it rather interesting and would like to see this common among a sample size of at least a hundred (100) people. It could be an indication that someone with certain placements may be PRONE to develop personality disorders (as astrology's main focus is on one's personality and not necessarily one's health).

Narcissism can also emerge from childhood drama. "Brain imaging studies have suggested that early childhood trauma may adversely affect the development and functioning of the childís brain" (Psychiatry, 2008). The nature-nurture concepts plays a huge role in the development of NDP outside of some individuals that may exhibit traits "naturally" (for a lack of a better description). However, "At present, there is little research evidence informing the development of the most commonly presenting adult personality disorders such as borderline and narcissistic personality disorders" (Psychiatry, 2008). So, if astrology has any aspect, it may be that the personality aspects require an traumatic experience in order for one to develop such characteristics.

Sources:
[1] Psychiatry [1476-1793] Vizard, Eileen yr:2008 vol:7 iss:9 pg:389 -394
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Unread 08-23-2016, 01:05 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post
I think the true narcissist is someone who is totally unconscious of the effect they have on others.
LIN
A common rule of thumb that many use is "if you think you exhibit narcissistic traits, or ever questioned if you're a narcissist or not, then you're more than likely not." So, to some degree, I would agree with your statement. However, even narcissists would attempt to persuade the other that they are consciously aware of their effects on others; but truly they would show zero to little remorse for their actions outside of public settings. Narcissism is thrown around a lot and clearly misused. But, again, this is from external influences; not internal. The narcissistic would have to be prompted/questioned by the thought first.

Drug influences would definitely contribute to the onset of personality disorders as well.

Last edited by MisterPlatypus; 08-23-2016 at 01:44 AM.
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Unread 08-29-2016, 04:03 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

I think there should be some general agreement about what narcissism is.

The main ethical problem is there are so many psychological definitions of narcissism and logically so many astrological descriptions of it, that anyone could be labeled with narcissism.

The descriptions vary from benign vanity to real psychopathy.

In Encyclopedia of Astrology, for example, you can read the most characteristic sign of it is Sun-Venus conjunction. Some other signs should be conjunctions of certain planets/luminaries with Ascendant - Sun, Venus, Moon or Neptun conjunct Ascendant. In addition, Saturn should play a certain rule, conjuction Sun-Moon, water signs, etc. The special question is narcisstic wound.

Even here, on the forum, you have many threads about narcissism, with completely different descriptions of signs and placements.

Last edited by demetraceres; 08-29-2016 at 04:14 AM.
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Unread 08-30-2016, 10:10 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterPlatypus View Post
A common rule of thumb that many use is "if you think you exhibit narcissistic traits, or ever questioned if you're a narcissist or not, then you're more than likely not." So, to some degree, I would agree with your statement. However, even narcissists would attempt to persuade the other that they are consciously aware of their effects on others; but truly they would show zero to little remorse for their actions outside of public settings. Narcissism is thrown around a lot and clearly misused. But, again, this is from external influences; not internal. The narcissistic would have to be prompted/questioned by the thought first.

Drug influences would definitely contribute to the onset of personality disorders as well.
My brother has some form of NPD and his natal chart is attached here. You are correct that if you are able to question yourself and are able to wonder in any sort of meaningful way about yourself then you probably dont have NPD. My brother is simply unable to see himself in any other means except by how he appears, by criteria. He is also unable to understand how other people feel or what they experience. If he does imply it , it is because he pretends or is in essence acting to portray this to others because he see this as being a good way to appear.

I think for me the most dramatic part about his chart that points to narcissism is the fact that all his planets are in the subjective half of the chart except saturn. Potentially having neptune conjunct south node might also factor. He simply has no idea how to be objective and see the world from anything other than himself.
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Unread 08-30-2016, 10:18 AM
Julia Karmic Astrology Julia Karmic Astrology is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

There is an agreement in the clinical literature about the definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
This is when the trait becomes pathological and interferes with normal functioning.
Of course, there can be more benign presentations of the trait of narcissism.

Here are the criteria for NPD:

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a cluster B personality disorder defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

Signs and symptoms
In the American Psychiatric Associationís Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5),[1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:
  • A grandiose sense of self-importance
  • A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  • A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions
  • A need for excessive admiration
  • A sense of entitlement
  • Interpersonally exploitive behavior
  • A lack of empathy
  • Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her
  • A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes
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Unread 08-30-2016, 11:40 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

From what you describe, it sounds a lot like Lilith traits, maybe Neptune too, and also Pluto. Leo as a sign for vanity etc. One of my parents has many Leo planets.

Edit-

Lilith in Leo on his chart!! Ahhh that's the one. I knew a woman with that placement- charismatic narcissism exactly.
Also, he has it in the second, which is bodily awareness, self worth...I think that is quite a strong physical pride/vanity message.

Last edited by Chillaxer; 08-30-2016 at 11:53 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 12:21 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

You guys are right about Leo being a sign linked to narcissism. I added that to the list.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 01:32 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

1968 was one heck of a year astrologically.

Pluto and Uranus were very close. I fell in love with a woman born in 1968 in 2008 when I was 17 years younger, during her pluto driven uranus half-return...

I think that these people can be very magnetic sometimes. Especially the Sun/Mars stelliums from 1968. She did anything she could do short of getting pregnant to keep me around; until one day, I became a stranger to her after the seven year itch.

People talk hard aspects between pluto and mars. I think that soft aspects can make one very stubborn. I am often concerned my soft aspects of determination could be confused for this behavior, but I feel too bad a lot of the time to have it.

Pluto and Mars can be the culprits of narcissism if the aspects are unforgiving or the person is raised and conditioned to be this way. Short of a miracle, without a quality childhood, pluto mars will make you do a little bit of time - whether it is behind bars or not.

I have a Sun/Venus conjunction but it is not combust. I also have pluto moon mars in Scorp8H. I get very angry sometimes. But I feel terrible too often to experience psychopathy, to the point where I have no appetite. And so other disorders, like PTSD, can cause one to literally shrival up and die if they don't get help.

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Unread 08-31-2016, 01:39 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterPlatypus View Post
This sounds exactly like sign bashing. Having an ego, to a certain degree, although sometimes over-exaggerated, is actually healthy.
Everyone has some narcissism. And like I said, who cares if it's sign bashing. I'm a Leo and I'm not really offended. I'm just looking at the facts. Negative traits of Leo are narcissistic.

But seriously, I don't understand how having an over-exaggerated ego is healthy?!!? LOL Do you have evidence for this?? If anything, that's a sign of someone who is unhealthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubyadude1986 View Post
1968 was one heck of a year astrologically.

Pluto and Uranus were very close. I fell in love with a woman born in 1968 in 2008 when I was 17 years younger, during her pluto driven uranus half-return...

I think that these people can be very magnetic sometimes. Especially the Sun/Mars stelliums from 1968. She did anything she could do short of getting pregnant to keep me around; until one day, I became a stranger to her after the seven year itch.

People talk hard aspects between pluto and mars. I think that soft aspects can make one very stubborn. I am often concerned my soft aspects of determination could be confused for this behavior, but I feel too bad a lot of the time to have it.

Pluto and Mars can be the culprits of narcissism if the aspects are unforgiving or the person is raised and conditioned to be this way. Short of a miracle, without a quality childhood, pluto mars will make you do a little bit of time - whether it is behind bars or not.
So... narcissism is a side affect to humans that can't solve their problems like adults.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 01:48 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Everyone has some narcissism. And like I said, who cares if it's sign bashing. I'm a Leo and I'm not really offended. I'm just looking at the facts. Negative traits of Leo are narcissistic.

But seriously, I don't understand how having an over-exaggerated ego is healthy?!!? LOL Do you have evidence for this?? If anything, that's a sign of someone who is unhealthy.



So... narcissism is a side affect to humans that can't solve their problems like adults.
It can be a side effect if humans are not emotionally conditioned properly during adolescence. Not just humans having a hard times solving problems. waybread explains this well. I know I'm not a Dr. I don't know if waybread is, but I have experienced narcissists.

A lot of narcissists are more likely to be a CEO than someone on disability or homeless. These people are not your homeless on the side of the road suffering usually. They are very highly functioning people a lot of the time and do not feel remorse for terrible behavior.

I'm just saying that these people from this era (1968) are very magnetic to me, the women that is.

The aspects I listed are aspects that people are always talking about, this topic comes up a lot here.

Even though I say some pretty terrible things when I am angry, I always feel bad about it. I have wondered about this before.

Last edited by Dubyadude1986; 08-31-2016 at 01:52 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 01:56 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

My childhood was not healthy, regardless of having "things", and I was and always will be more prone to mental health issues than my peers.

That doesn't mean I have narcissism, or that my PTSD is forever. Trauma. Some of us lash out with anger. Some of us feel bad about it, some of us don't.

I'm happy to report that I do feel bad about it. It tears me up to read these threads about this. The problem is that with certain conditions, such as PTSD, knowing you will feel bad later doesn't stop you from saying something mean. Especially if you are re-acting and were wronged first. The most I can tell is that you can stop yourself from being violent, but keeping your mouth shut is completely different...

That's where they come up with "bait a man with a tweet." We're wronged, but then some of us respond the wrong way and lose anyway.

To the OP: I am wondering if it isn't something different.

Last edited by Dubyadude1986; 08-31-2016 at 02:01 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 02:06 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterPlatypus View Post
Re-read what I wrote. What I said is that people over-exaggerate when someone has a bit of an ego. It's actually quite healthy to have a sense of self-love.

Just read any psychology book.
"Just read any psychology book." Thanks for being condescending and indirectly saying that I know nothing regarding psychology.

Having a sense of self-love is very different from having an over exaggerated ego. You said, that having an over exaggerated ego is healthy. That is, clearly, incorrect. Having self-love is healthy.

But someone with an afflicted sun in leo (or afflicted sun in general), or has Saturn in the 5th or has Saturn in Leo, would then fall on the narcissistic end because that healthy self-love is changed into an addiction to loving the self because there is a lack (saturn) of healthy self-love to begin with. So the person overcompensates with narcissism or an inflated ego. And that is most certainly not healthy, and so I called you out on it. That's why Leo's can be narcissistic compared to other signs. That is not sign bashing.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 02:26 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Mister, you are bringing a different perspective. Different than what OP had intended.

Quote:
In popular usage, the terms narcissism, narcissist, and narcissistic denote absurd vanity and are applied to people whose ambitions and aspirations are much grander than their evident talents. Sometimes these terms are applied to people who are simply full of themselves -- even when their real achievements are spectacular. Outstanding performers are not always modest, but they aren't grandiose if their self-assessments are realistic; e.g., Muhammad Ali, then Cassius Clay, was notorious for boasting "I am the greatest!" and also pointing out that he was the prettiest, but he was the greatest and the prettiest for a number of years, so his self-assessments weren't grandiose....
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
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Unread 08-31-2016, 03:51 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by kamn; 09-03-2016 at 11:07 PM.
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Unread 08-31-2016, 04:01 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterPlatypus View Post
Oh shizzle, that hurts. K.
Did you just say shizzle?

I feel like there are people on this forum whom I know in real life. lol

What are the chances of this...
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Unread 08-31-2016, 04:02 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamn View Post
I presume that the important planets have to be in very early degrees. the chart ruler for both men and women. and Sun for men, and the moon for women. early degrees ar infant degrees, so the person doesn't mature and stays attached to objects, like parents etc...
This example also has the northnode in 4th, which in vedic astrology means that the person doesn't trust the world and is prone to drama emotional experience.
This example is extreme NPD - i know the person.
That's really interesting! I never knew that planets with small degrees would point to not wanting to grow up.

Thanks for your insight!
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