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  #76  
Unread 08-12-2017, 11:29 PM
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Night Sky Night Sky is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Originally Posted by Imperial1922 View Post
i agree with what you say.

also i would like to add sun-jupiter hard aspects as they expand your ego, which can make for a very narcisstic personality. whats the difference between mars/pluto and venus/pluto? wouldnt they have a somewhat similar effect?
I'm not sure what qualifies as "Narcissist".

However I know the traits that annoy me most which are related to the topic of self-importance, excessive self-love. The problems with these traits is that the person doesn't love anyone except them self and is quite happy to betray at a moment's notice, family or friends, if they do not serve some end.

Aspects which I have seen in a natal chart of someone that exhibits some of these traits:

South Node in the 1st. (Also possibly Pluto rising)

I think both of these are capable individually of making a person selfish or self obsessed. The SN in the 1st denotes a person that has been self-centred in past lives and needs to focus on others' needs in this life. NN in the 7th. Pluto rising perhaps, emphasises immoral attitude towards gaining power, though maybe it is the SN position which is most suspect in this trait.

Venus square ASC, or Venus emphasised.

Venus makes a person attractive and likeable, but overdo this and you end up with someone who takes selfies all the time, always paying attention to their looks and has high estimation based on looks. So this is obviously the negative side of Venus. Beauty is the cherry on the cake, if you only have a cherry and no cake, you get shallow rubbish. Words suggest things, in the same way as images suggest things, but neither are the actual thing.

Last but not least: Jupiter square Sun.

Sun is the personal ego. The downside is pride, the upside is the joy that gives life its zest. So a person with Sun square Jupiter will have their ego (Sun) blown out of proportion (Jupiter).

I am not sure it is strictly narcissism that this aspect describes. But it sure as hell is annoying. It merely describes a big ego that is arrogant and of course over blows its own achievements or potential. It is the opposite of modesty.

I am wondering perhaps a little about Uranus. This planet heightens the self-awareness. I'm open to opinion on this one, but I would like to add it as a suggestion.

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  #77  
Unread 08-14-2017, 12:15 AM
thelivingsky thelivingsky is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Night Sky:
I have 3 of the positions you list as possible markers for narcissism. My Pluto is in H1 just 7 degrees from my Ascendant. My Sun squares Jupiter and my Venus squares my Ascendant. Yet, I am a person who has battled my lack of confidence most of my life. I have struggled to feel competent or worthy, and until I was in my 50's had difficulty doing things such as asking for a raise or charging a high fee for my services. I have never felt that I was very attractive physically and felt that I would never be able to attract a partner who did not have some serious issues so often became involved with men who were addicts or narcissists themselves. I feel guilt and shame often which according to psychologists are emotions narcissist do not feel. I am capable of saying "I am sorry" which is something narcissists cannot do. I do not like being the center of attention, being on-stage or in the limelight.

My ex husband who probably is a narcissist has Moon conjunct Pluto in Leo and a t-square of Sun, Saturn and Uranus. Also his Sun and ruler is in Capricorn all of which I think contribute to selfishness which to me is an underlying motive in the narcissistic person along with a very deep and unconscious feeling of inadequacy and self-loathing. After studying psychology and what experts say about what pathological narcissism is, I think that the narcissist's outer behavior that seems like too much self-esteem is actually a compensatory defense mechanism of the ego - an ego that is actually very fragile and needy but the conscious mind cannot face this reality/these feelings because it is so painful that it is repressed. Likewise after learning to repress their painful feelings of low-self esteem, they then repress their feelings of guilt about how they hurt others.

There seems to be very little awareness of how the psyche works these days. We all engage in psychological defense mechanisms at times yet the culture does not seem to teach about these unconscious ego tricks. Things such as denial, repression, projection etc all operate unconsciously unless we strive to become aware of our habits with them. IMO, and many agree with me, that to grow emotionally and spiritually it is necessary to identify and undo these ego defenses.

It is important to understand that a person's conscious self-concept is not always congruent with his unconscious self esteem. One can have a very low self-esteem which is repressed and compensate for that by adopting a conscious self -concept that allows him to believe he is wonderful. Then he doesn't have to face and deal with the very painful inner feelings of inadequacy or self-loathing. Self-loathing is perhaps the most unpleasant human emotion along with grief over the loss of a loved one or complete humiliation. It is no wonder that people often repress it.

A favorite teacher/guru of mine is the late David R. Hawkins who said ( I am paraphrasing) "If you want to overcome your ego it pays to understand the ego's tricks." He is referring to the defense mechanisms of the ego of which there are about 10 that have been identified. Freud was the first to catalog a list of these. I am sure you can find a list easily.

I studied the charts of serial killers since these are people who clearly have no guilt about murder. I thought this would be a good exercise to attempt to identify narcissistic tendencies. I found many links of the Moon with Pluto, Orcus, Mars and the Nodes. Perhaps narcissists who were not violent but relied of charm and deceit may not have the Mars or Orcus contacts. Maybe Venus and Neptune instead? But ultimately I don't think you can determine pathological narcissism from a natal chart.

We have president here in the US that many people are certain is a narcissist. He does not have any of the chart features you listed. His Sun is trine Jupiter, his Pluto is in H12 and his Venus is 30 degrees from his Ascendant.

That's my 10 cents worth,
Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com
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  #78  
Unread 08-16-2017, 01:40 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Originally Posted by thelivingsky View Post
Night Sky:
I have 3 of the positions you list as possible markers for narcissism. My Pluto is in H1 just 7 degrees from my Ascendant. My Sun squares Jupiter and my Venus squares my Ascendant. Yet, I am a person who has battled my lack of confidence most of my life. I have struggled to feel competent or worthy, and until I was in my 50's had difficulty doing things such as asking for a raise or charging a high fee for my services. I have never felt that I was very attractive physically and felt that I would never be able to attract a partner who did not have some serious issues so often became involved with men who were addicts or narcissists themselves. I feel guilt and shame often which according to psychologists are emotions narcissist do not feel. I am capable of saying "I am sorry" which is something narcissists cannot do. I do not like being the center of attention, being on-stage or in the limelight.

My ex husband who probably is a narcissist has Moon conjunct Pluto in Leo and a t-square of Sun, Saturn and Uranus. Also his Sun and ruler is in Capricorn all of which I think contribute to selfishness which to me is an underlying motive in the narcissistic person along with a very deep and unconscious feeling of inadequacy and self-loathing. After studying psychology and what experts say about what pathological narcissism is, I think that the narcissist's outer behavior that seems like too much self-esteem is actually a compensatory defense mechanism of the ego - an ego that is actually very fragile and needy but the conscious mind cannot face this reality/these feelings because it is so painful that it is repressed. Likewise after learning to repress their painful feelings of low-self esteem, they then repress their feelings of guilt about how they hurt others.

There seems to be very little awareness of how the psyche works these days. We all engage in psychological defense mechanisms at times yet the culture does not seem to teach about these unconscious ego tricks. Things such as denial, repression, projection etc all operate unconsciously unless we strive to become aware of our habits with them. IMO, and many agree with me, that to grow emotionally and spiritually it is necessary to identify and undo these ego defenses.

It is important to understand that a person's conscious self-concept is not always congruent with his unconscious self esteem. One can have a very low self-esteem which is repressed and compensate for that by adopting a conscious self -concept that allows him to believe he is wonderful. Then he doesn't have to face and deal with the very painful inner feelings of inadequacy or self-loathing. Self-loathing is perhaps the most unpleasant human emotion along with grief over the loss of a loved one or complete humiliation. It is no wonder that people often repress it.

A favorite teacher/guru of mine is the late David R. Hawkins who said ( I am paraphrasing) "If you want to overcome your ego it pays to understand the ego's tricks." He is referring to the defense mechanisms of the ego of which there are about 10 that have been identified. Freud was the first to catalog a list of these. I am sure you can find a list easily.

I studied the charts of serial killers since these are people who clearly have no guilt about murder. I thought this would be a good exercise to attempt to identify narcissistic tendencies. I found many links of the Moon with Pluto, Orcus, Mars and the Nodes. Perhaps narcissists who were not violent but relied of charm and deceit may not have the Mars or Orcus contacts. Maybe Venus and Neptune instead? But ultimately I don't think you can determine pathological narcissism from a natal chart.

We have president here in the US that many people are certain is a narcissist. He does not have any of the chart features you listed. His Sun is trine Jupiter, his Pluto is in H12 and his Venus is 30 degrees from his Ascendant.

That's my 10 cents worth,
Barb at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

OK, I am sorry. I put those forward as suggestions. You've got some good points. Jupiter Sun aspects have the potential to be arrogant, and Trump has Jupiter trine Sun, so that is why many people see him as "narcissist", when in fact he is just playing a game of projecting confidence and "leadership" in my opinion. No-one votes for people who are shy and retiring and depend on their academic achievements. Maybe that is an indictment of the current state of democracy, and then the people complain that their leaders are self-obsessed or stupid or whatever, whether left or right.

Naturally a person has the ability to choose his or her course in life and can decide any time whether to be humble or to take all the credit.


Something about the definition of "Narcissism" hasn't really been cleared in this thread to my mind and it's quite important.

Narcissism, in the myth it is Narcissus who falls in total obsession with his own image in the water.

I think modern "psychology" has a tendency to warp the purity of the traditional myths. So if we go with the original story, Narcissus was merely proud and ignored those who advised him. Looked in the water, became obsessed and died.

Taking the original myth, a true narcissist should therefore be a person who stays at home 100% of the time staring in the water and dies. Taking it literally a narcissist should not have any interest in other people only self and perhaps in reality shuns off all interaction, which is the case in the story.

There is a 12th house feel to it.

What people generally mean talking about a "narcissist" is not a true narcissist. But rather a selfish egoist, basically afflicted Sun, pride or self-aggrandisement which is not to my mind related to this traditional story.

I exhibit some of those qualities of wanting to stay at home. I am not in love with my image by any means. But I think it is more of an introvert. I completely throw out the modern definition, as I have already said.

In light of this, afflicted Venus is not Narcissus though it is associated with image, nor is afflicted Sun, though it is related to pride.

Pluto we know has the potential for obsession. So perhaps those comments in this thread talking about Pluto Venus may be close to the mark. An obsession with self-image or popularity.
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  #79  
Unread 08-16-2017, 02:25 AM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

I have some news for everyone.

I'm officially a narcissist.

I've gone with the asteroid 37117 and put it in to the chart, to see the truth. So, my natal:

Narcissus 27 Leo, square my
25 Scorpio Sun and trine my
25 Aries Moon.

I am going strictly on the position of asteroid 37117 a 100% pure narcissist. A 2 degrees orb is pretty strong for both Sun and Moon. Narcissus is in my 11th house, fairly close to the 12th cusp.


So as a pure narcissist. What can I tell you all?

Reading the traditional story on theoi, there is a lot of information.

http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Narkissos.html


How do I relate to it?

So, going on theoi mythology website, to me Narcissus relates mostly to themes of rejection, which I can relate to. It is tricky because Saturn has domain over rejection stories too.

Well, since Narcissus is square my Sun, maybe I am the one who fell in love with the Narcissus type in girls. I fell in love with quite a lot of women who were quite self-obsessed. I don't think I ever really rejected anyone, perhaps once out of a misunderstanding, which could have worked out differently if she had been clearer about what she wanted.

It's rather a sad myth. But I will try to be honest here. A lot of women I fell for were very beautiful, I do feel like I've been rejected a lot more than my natal Saturn should suggest.

Perhaps a number of them were looking for something in themselves. Since I have Narcissus trine Moon it is a theme for women in my life, but then the Sun square should be even worse. I would not say I am obsessed with my image at all, some days I've had people tell me "you've grown a beard" and I touch my chin and "what do you know, so I have". I tend not to look in the mirror at all really. In fact I abhor being in photographs for the most part I hate my own image. (Perhaps because it is the square?)

Perhaps it is more of a Pluto type of theme. A quest to find out the true self or identity. It is said in the myth that he didn't feel love. So, how can it be self-love. There is something else more like looking into the abyss.

If I exhibit true Narcissus theme I am afraid I will demand a total redefinition of the meaning of "narcissism".

It's introversion.
It's total rejection of the lime light.
Rejection of all social interaction.
Rejection of egoistic attention seeking.

Rejection of everything really, the myth tells of a rather tragic 12th house sort of ending. The people who are being called narcissist based on the current meaning can be called egoists, or attention seekers, or braggers, or self-aggrandizes.

If you want to go on the position of the asteroid and my tight chart positions as any evidence, then I would have to go with saying that you won't find a true Narcissus at a party. It's total introversion and sense of rejection and searching for meaning.

Last edited by Night Sky; 08-16-2017 at 03:42 AM.
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  #80  
Unread 08-23-2018, 11:30 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Here's a chart of a guy who seems to be a prime leader in the study of narcissism and he is a narcissist himself!!! His name is Sam Vaknin.



Two things...

He has Sun square Jupiter

His Sun is on the Aries and Taurus cusp. This doesn't necessarily mean narcissism, but I know that Hitler had an Aries Taurus cusp and I know two other people who had the Aries Taurus cusp that seem very narcissistic.
I have to say this haha when I saw this birth chart some things jumped out to me which look very much like what I have in my chart but I'm not a narcissist, in fact I've dated one. So his moon and ascendant are conjunct in the same degree which I also have, only my moon and ascendant are in pisces. Also he has mercury and venus very close to each other in the 10th house plus lilith in leo which I also have. But obviously these don't indicate a narcissist I think it can better be seen through planet aspects. And also someone said a lot of neptune influence and someone said about lilith in leo, but I don't think so at least not alone because obviously then everybody with lilith in leo could be a narcissist. It's just the dark side of this lilith sign which all lilith signs have their own.
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  #81  
Unread 08-23-2018, 11:44 PM
mida mida is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

Also, since I mentioned I dated a narcissist, I wanna say that he has a first house stellium in capricorn. Moon, ascendant, neptune and venus in capricorn in the 1st. Venus (which I've read in the 1st house indicates narcissism to some degree) conjunct ascendant and with this I'm wondering if venus in 1st conjunct ascendant could be a 100% indicator of a narcissist. Also, he has venus opposite mars - woman beater. Mars in 7th - in cancer. Lilith in pisces in second house.
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  #82  
Unread 07-18-2019, 04:13 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
I'll guarantee there's already a thread on this, but I'm too lazy to look through all of them.

What chart aspects or placements lead to narcissism? I've become fascinated with narcissism and I've done a little research and heres what I've got.

General Narcissistic Traits--

Magical Thinking
Arrogance
Envy
Entitlement
Exploitation
Lack Boundaries
Shame-based personaltiy
Rejection of the Real Self in exchange for a beholded false self
Narcissistic Supply - Attention, adulation, affection, praise, etc... (Self-esteem regulation)


Heres some placement ideas for Narcissism

Narcissus (37117)
You can tell by the name..Basically if this astroid touches something personal in your chart, or something personal in another persons chart, then you'll be narcissistic.

Echo (60)
Echo represents giving yourself away to others. Your personality is "echoed" in another person. Echo shows narcissism because she is essentially rejecting her real self by craving affection and love from another person to feed her false self.
So if echo touches something personal, could also be narcissistic, but an inverted narcissism

Zodiac Signs
I don't think zodiac signs determine if someone is narcissistic really, but it's something to think about.

Aquarius - Sun in the 11th
detachment
associated with the god complex ("I'm above all or special")
genius or intelligent - triggers the "above all"
opposite of Leo, an outward friendship rather than inner. Focusing on your outer world means you don't have to get deep or in intimacy; easy narcissistic supply, especially by doing charity or performing in large groups and organizations

Libra - Sun in the 7th
similar to echo... Libra seems to be a little fake--shaping themselves just so they can be liked or have friendships--rejecting the true self

Strong Leo Placements (for obvious reasons)

Aspects
North Node conjunct Sun
North node is agressive and wants to take shortcuts
The north node is destiny and isn't achieved until later, so the person could develop narcissism I guess

VENUS-PLUTO
This aspect seems to be the most influencial in determining narcissism. Usually narcissist aren't found unless you are in a relationship with one
Venus is about relationships of course and when aspect by pluto it triggers insecurities and or a sense of rejection either in yourself or in relationships bringing our defense mechanisms such as narcissism.

I've seen Venus Pluto and Pluto in general come up a bit
In a personal relationship where I accused someone of being a narcissist we had this as an EXACT negative aspect

And astrologers with these websites have claimed so that pluto or venus/pluto mean narcissism

These websites claim that Pluto has a huge influence regarding narcissism
http://www.thespiritualeclectic.com/...-in-the-stars/

http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/na...elf-rejection/

http://angstoic.com/2015/03/pluto-and-narcissism/


Lastly as my personal opinions
Neptune-Sun Aspect and Pluto-Sun or Moon

Narcissists are extremely delusional and lack boundaries. Similar to Neptune and Sun lacking boundaries and being aware of their ego.
This aspect has a lot to do with imagination and wanting to live the grander and more glamorized life. Like a narcissist and their fantasies

Pluto-Sun, Pluto-Moon triggers a need to be powerful and manipulative or in control because of some underlying fear, especially fear of intimacy


Those are just some ideas

Tell me what you think both objectively and biased!! Tell me personal stories of narcissists you know, or think you know are narcissists, and their charts
Every Sagittarius ♐️ person I have ever ever come across is narcissistic and evil. Canít speak for every sag but ones I have come across and seems to be a lot have these traits
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  #83  
Unread 07-18-2019, 09:15 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
Every Sagittarius ♐️ person I have ever ever come across is narcissistic and evil. Canít speak for every sag but ones I have come across and seems to be a lot have these traits
You've been meeting the wrong Sagittarians.
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  #84  
Unread 07-18-2019, 09:16 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
You've been meeting the wrong Sagittarians.
Oh dear lol are you a sag? No offence to any sag by the way!
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  #85  
Unread 07-18-2019, 09:30 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Astrology and Narcissism

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Oh dear lol are you a sag? No offence to any sag by the way!
No, just my M.C. and SN. (Inconjunct)
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  #86  
Unread 07-18-2019, 09:32 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

🙉 at least you will be moving away from it being ur SN 🙈😊
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  #87  
Unread 07-19-2019, 01:24 PM
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

I have Also come across so many times Pisces sun ppl who act the martyr and are calculating and nasty. A lot of Pisces. Iíve read about the Pisces sun and how selfless etc they are and I know you have to look at the chart as a whole however in general Pisces are manipulative and cruel 🤷🏻*♀️
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  #88  
Unread 07-26-2019, 12:29 PM
SometimesDawn SometimesDawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
I have Also come across so many times Pisces sun ppl who act the martyr and are calculating and nasty. A lot of Pisces. Iíve read about the Pisces sun and how selfless etc they are and I know you have to look at the chart as a whole however in general Pisces are manipulative and cruel 🤷🏻*♀️

Ugh... Yes. My ex husband was a Pisces. I've sworn them off for life now.
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  #89  
Unread 07-26-2019, 12:45 PM
Hkk Hkk is offline
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Re: Astrology and Narcissism

the undercover real scorpios pretending to be selfless and all that other stuff they say about pisces not true
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