dodekatemorion and profection

poyi

Premium Member
Yes, those adjustments would be of the nature mentioned in earlier posts re the chart by member Burlinvermon; perhaps you could request Burlinvermon to give a more complete delineation (using dodeks and regular chart reading methods) in the "Read My Chart" forum?


LOL, I have posted my chart before not many people interested to "Read". Anyhow, I have learned a lot about my chart recently with a good teacher. So now instead I am curious about how other read my chart just to see different view points. :cool:
 

poyi

Premium Member
To dr farr

I am wondering if you can help me to understand my 9th ruler is venus and has squares to neptune and conjunct mars(malefic)....

I had a terrible relationship before which ended in divorce. I hope to find some light of what to expect in the future. Either good or bad, I would like to have some ideas. And I am also interested in knowing more about my profected planets. This area of Astrology is not very well discussed. I think many more astrologers and learners will be benefited by your teaching.


Thanks a lot
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
To dr farr
I am wondering if you can help me to understand my 9th ruler is venus and has squares to neptune and conjunct mars(malefic)....

I had a terrible relationship before which ended in divorce. I hope to find some light of what to expect in the future. Either good or bad, I would like to have some ideas. And I am also interested in knowing more about my profected planets. This area of Astrology is not very well discussed. I think many more astrologers and learners will be benefited by your teaching.
Thanks a lot
btw poyi, wintersprite1 has reminded us that since this is the traditional astrology forum, we are requested to post discussion involving outer planets and asteroids on the General Forum

Thanks :smile:
As a reminder to all,

Since this is the Traditional Forum, it would follow to reason the application of outer planets and asteroids muddle up the conversation. If discussion of such is desired, please feel free to start a new thread in the General Forum, as I am sure many other members would benefit from the information that would otherwise never find it in the first place.


Thanks!
TK
and dr. farr has said
Note: following Wintersprite's note, in illustrating dodek or Pauline profection methods relative to actual birth charts on this thread, please only apply the dodek technique or Pauline profection technique to the 7 traditional planets, in making any delineations; although dodek and Pauline profection work perfectly when applied to the outers, Lilith, etc, since this is a Traditional Astrology ONLY sub-forum we should not reference these other elements (outers, asteroids, etc) in this particular sub-forum.
that is because traditional astrologers traditionally delineate solely the seven visible planets i.e. Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn

Thanks:smile:
 

poyi

Premium Member
btw poyi, wintersprite1 has reminded us that since this is the traditional astrology forum, we are requested to post discussion involving outer planets and asteroids on the General Forum

Thanks :smile:

and dr. farr has said

that is because traditional astrologers traditionally delineate solely the seven visible planets i.e. Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn

Thanks:smile:

To JUPITERASC


I must have misunderstood the suggestions from burlinvermon and didn't think of the outer planet is not part of traditional astrology. I have been thinking myself asking the right questions LOL!! Sorry about that to everyone. I properly won't post on General forum. Every time I post and ask question most of the time nobody bother to answer..... I think it has been a common problem in the forum.


Thank you JUPITERASC
 
Last edited:

dr. farr

Well-known member
To JUPITERASC


I must have misunderstood the suggestions from burlinvermon and didn't think of the outer planet is not part of traditional astrology. I have been thinking myself asking the right questions LOL!! Sorry about that to everyone. I properly won't post on General forum. Every time I post and ask question most of the time nobody bother to answer..... I think it has been a common problem in the forum.


Thank you JUPITERASC


Hi!
If you like you can PM me about your question and I'll take a look at the matter over the near future.
 

burlinvermon

Well-known member
neptune is part of astrology and astrologers use neptune but this thread is in traditional astrology forum and traditional astrologers don't use neptune, dr. farr suggested that you PM him so you will be answered :sideways:

regarding your profected planets question, i profected your sun and moon in my last post and waiting for dr. farr reply. i quoted your profected moon and sun delineation and my questions to dr. farr.
when i understand how to profect the planets and interpret the profected place, i will profect and interpret all of your planets.


can you profect degrees of planets or just signs?(for aspects to the natal chart, ie by pauline profection the moon in poyi's profected chart is in taurus opposing the natal sun in scorpio, can you profect the degree of the moon, having an orb for the opposition between the sun and the moon and not the whole sign)

in poyi's birth chart chart, sun is in scorpio and moon is in capricorn.
i profected the sun and the moon. by pauline profection the sun is in pisces and the moon is in taurus and by egyptian profection the sun is in aries and the moon is in gemini. am i accurate? would the profected planets always have the same aspect as in the natal chart(sun sextiles moon)?
how do you interpret the profected place of the planet?


note: i will only apply these techniques to the 7 traditional planets in making any delineations on this thread. the grand cross in poyi's natal chart using the dodek technique includes uranus(an outer planet), would you still consider and interpret it as a grand cross as i did in my delineation?
 

poyi

Premium Member
neptune is part of astrology and astrologers use neptune but this thread is in traditional astrology forum and traditional astrologers don't use neptune, dr. farr suggested that you PM him so you will be answered :sideways:

regarding your profected planets question, i profected your sun and moon in my last post and waiting for dr. farr reply. i quoted your profected moon and sun delineation and my questions to dr. farr.
when i understand how to profect the planets and interpret the profected place, i will profect and interpret all of your planets.


burlinvermon,

You have been very helpful! Thank you very much. But I really don't know anything about your dodekatemorian and profection methods....

My western astrology teacher has been emphasizing the best qualities of my Western natal chart are my Mars-sextil-Mercury-sextil-Moon-trine-Mars, Mercury and Mars sharing mutual reception and Mars also exalts in my Capricorn Moon. In all these Mercury at the nearly ideal midpoint of the pattern of this triangle, also my Scorpio Stellium is being ruled by the Virgo Mars (also the ascendant that is why he chose Mars not Pluto), basically Mars rules all my planets in Scorpio Stellium, excepting Venus (it's own ruler in Libra) but then again Venus conjunction Mars, my teacher said based on his experience Venus has no choice but to follow Mars very interesting concept still trying to understand, Jupiter (it's own ruler in Sagittarius by essential and accidental it rules over Neptune and Uranus in the same sign and house)

The interesting Jupiter conjunction IC conjunction Uranus at 4th Jupiter overrided the rulership of Neptune over Pisces and became the ruler of my 7th house (In here we don't talk about outer planets anyway).

All these aspects after being profected, I really want to see the differences in term of interpretations comparing to before being profected.
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
(In here we don't talk about outer planets anyway).
poyi, the outer planets are so far away that they are invisible without the aid of powerful telescopes which had not yet been invented in ancient times therefore traditional astrology has no interpretations for the outer planets.


Ancient and/or Traditional astrology is a complete system that has worked well for two thousand years without the outer planets: to suddenly “add in planets randomly” makes a nonsense of the original system. Therefore the outer planets are a modern astrological idea that is out of place on a traditional forum - that is why wintersprite1 has posted the following message :smile:
As a reminder to all,
Since this is the Traditional Forum, it would follow to reason the application of outer planets and asteroids muddle up the conversation.
If discussion of such is desired, please feel free to start a new thread in the General Forum, as I am sure many other members would benefit from the information that would otherwise never find it in the first place.

Thanks!
TK
 

poyi

Premium Member
poyi, the outer planets are so far away that they are invisible without the aid of powerful telescopes which had not yet been invented in ancient times therefore traditional astrology has no interpretations for the outer planets.


Ancient and/or Traditional astrology is a complete system that has worked well for two thousand years without the outer planets: to suddenly “add in planets randomly” makes a nonsense of the original system. Therefore the outer planets are a modern astrological idea that is out of place on a traditional forum - that is why wintersprite1 has posted the following message :smile:

Yes I know what you mean about that. So after being the 7 planets being profected and without using the modern planets. I wonder the differences in interpretation.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Profection and dodekatemorion are NOT the same thing:
-profection is where the entire chart is advanced one sign per year of life, then for that given year the profected places of the planets are compared with their natal positions
-dodekatemorion is done to the planets in the NATAL chart; they are "jumped" by a factor of 13 (or 12 if using the Egyptian method of Valens et al) to an additional placement in the NATAL chart, and then both the original position AND the "jumped" dodek position, are used to delineate the totality of the ramifications of that planet in that natal chart.

,,,so what Poyi is interested in is the dodek placements of the planets in her natal chart in addition to their original placements, NOT the profected places, which change every year of life and are similar in this to "progressed planets" (to progressions)
 

poyi

Premium Member
Profection and dodekatemorion are NOT the same thing:
-profection is where the entire chart is advanced one sign per year of life, then for that given year the profected places of the planets are compared with their natal positions
-dodekatemorion is done to the planets in the NATAL chart; they are "jumped" by a factor of 13 (or 12 if using the Egyptian method of Valens et al) to an additional placement in the NATAL chart, and then both the original position AND the "jumped" dodek position, are used to delineate the totality of the ramifications of that planet in that natal chart.

,,,so what Poyi is interested in is the dodek placements of the planets in her natal chart in addition to their original placements, NOT the profected places, which change every year of life and are similar in this to "progressed planets" (to progressions)

Thank you for explaining. I think I have a little ideas now. Haha. By the way how dodeakatemorion this method started? I couldn't find anything from google obviously! Lol !
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
It was originated by the Hellenist adepts (Valens, etc) the earliest extant records going back to the 2nd century AD; it was a major method with the Greco/Roman astrologers over the next 400 years, then vanished during the Islamic transitional era (beginning around the 8th century AD)
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I believe it helps us see the hidden ramifications of the planets, their "shadows" (dodeks) so to speak, and that this gives additional indications to the basic planetary chart positions and connections.
 

poyi

Premium Member
I believe it helps us see the hidden ramifications of the planets, their "shadows" (dodeks) so to speak, and that this gives additional indications to the basic planetary chart positions and connections.

There are very little information regarding to this method. I wonder where did you get to learn all these?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
There are very little information regarding to this method. I wonder where did you get to learn all these?
There are a number of sources for this material including many in book form - however we are fortunate to have Vettius Valens entire Anthology available entirely free online in the form of a pdf translation by Professor Riley at this link http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Vettius Valens discusses profections in Book IV (4) of his Anthology which begins on page 71 of Professor Riley's free online translation.

Naturally, Valens and other ancient astrologers did not use software but produced their own calculations and were master mathematicians as well as astronomers! Today, software simplifies the procedures for us and there are free programs that calculate profections.

However, Curtis Manwaring has designed specifically Hellenistic Astrology software for Project Hindsight - here is a link to his software page
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/

Project Hindsight aims to restore Hellenistic Astrology http://www.projecthindsight.com/index1.html

and you'll be interested to read margherita's English version webpage http://heavenastrolabe.net/seeing-in-the-future-solar-returns-profections-directions/ "Seeing in the future: solar returns, profections, directions" which provides plenty of guidance :smile:
 

poyi

Premium Member
There are a number of sources for this material including many in book form - however we are fortunate to have Vettius Valens entire Anthology available entirely free online in the form of a pdf translation by Professor Riley at this link http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Vettius Valens discusses profections in Book IV (4) of his Anthology which begins on page 71 of Professor Riley's free online translation.

Naturally, Valens and other ancient astrologers did not use software but produced their own calculations and were master mathematicians as well as astronomers! Today, software simplifies the procedures for us and there are free programs that calculate profections.

However, Curtis Manwaring has designed specifically Hellenistic Astrology software for Project Hindsight - here is a link to his software page
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/

Project Hindsight aims to restore Hellenistic Astrology http://www.projecthindsight.com/index1.html

and you'll be interested to read margherita's English version webpage http://heavenastrolabe.net/seeing-in-the-future-solar-returns-profections-directions/ "Seeing in the future: solar returns, profections, directions" which provides plenty of guidance :smile:

Thank you very much. I surely include these as my regular readings.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Allow me to side track the topic a bit.

In Chinese astrology, we also have something similar like Profection (transit) but our system is more fixed and is already in a pattern which is very easy to trace it down very much like remembering mathematical formulas.

Because Chinese astrology/eight characters and other Chinese occult arts are only available or I should say impossible to understand without deep understand of the 5 elements, Yin/Yang, combination of the skies and roots and also you must learn Chinese language for the word itself has it own symbolic meanings.

There are 10 different "skies", two for each elements starting from Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water. Each element contains one Yin and one Yang symbol. There are 12 roots (animal signs), as most people aware of.

Each root again has one each Yin and Yang, however in different orders 1 water Yang, 2 Earth Yin, 3 Wood Yang and so on the last one is 12 Water Yin.

Go deeper, each root again contains another 1 to 3 elements, randomly, depending on the root.

Combining both skies and roots, there are 60 variations. A person's birth time, Year can have 60 variations, same as Month, Day, Time and even in minutes which is not well know how to calculate. Therefore, 60*60*60*60. Moreover, there is another combination of sky and root before birth at the time when a woman conceive which is also be used in a more in depth reading. In Chinese occult science, destiny is in fact determined at the time of conception. Both the time when a woman conceive and birth time of a person reflecting each other in a way which practice is no longer widely understood.

It is in theory, the energy of the universe at the time life began as an embryo and the energy of the actual first breath occurred at childbirth.

Depending on the season the native was born, energy of each element is different and then it will again influence the interpretation of each of the combination of 60*60*60*60, as well as day or night (early morning, midday, night or all in between to determine rather you are high in Yang or Yin energy).

On top of all these, location of your birth: East (Wood), West (Metal), North (Water), South (Fire) of course also including the Eastern-North, Western-south etc. Then the birth time of your parents are used to see the interaction with you in term of how your parent strength or weaken you. After all you are the copy of both your parents.

In term of transit of year, 10 skies and 12 roots (animal signs) again formed another 60 variations, they rotate one by one each year. We say that is external factor and the energy/element of each year, month, day, time strength you or weaken you. As a whole, good fortunate is relaying on good balance, extremely strength of one or few of the elements always represent misfortune in some areas. Each individual also has it own transit internal determined at the time of conception.

Oh.... I can go on and on about this. My conclusion is that I want to know how The Profection system actually works comparing to the Chinese system that I am familiar with. However, I am amazed both Western and Chinese astrology & Eight characters reflect to each other like mirror and give the same interpretations. For example, using Chinese Eight Characters my birth time is in extreme imbalance with dominant Yin water elements which is the same with Scorpio Stellium in a bundle pattern. Out of the eight characters, I have 6 Yin water, 1 Yin Wood and 1 Yin Earth (in here I don't mention about the elements under each root). Because of such extreme imbalance, my relationship with both of my parents is impossible to be harmonic because my sole strength is so strong that I don't rely on anyone to strength me. Therefore, I also don't need to rely on both man or woman but solely strong enough to take over life in my own way......which is very Mars-like factor.

When the power of water became so strong, I am being described as the Water of the Sea it can destroy everything but then again the lives within the Sea is abundance.

So....I am curious to understand how Profection system again reflecting the same interpretation to the Chinese system. :happy:
 
Last edited:

burlinvermon

Well-known member
Allow me to side track the topic a bit.

In Chinese astrology, we also have something similar like Profection (transit) but our system is more fixed and is already in a pattern which is very easy to trace it down very much like remembering mathematical formulas.

Oh.... I can go on and on about this. My conclusion is that I want to know how The Profection system actually works comparing to the Chinese system that I am familiar with. However, I am amazed both Western and Chinese astrology & Eight characters reflect to each other like mirror and give the same interpretations. For example, using Chinese Eight Characters my birth time is in extreme imbalance with dominant Yin water elements which is the same with Scorpio Stellium in a bundle pattern. Out of the eight characters, I have 6 Yin water, 1 Yin Wood and 1 Yin Earth (in here I don't mention about the elements under each root).

I am curious to understand how Profection system again reflecting the same interpretation to the Chinese system. :happy:
interesting poyi. profections rotate every year of life and are similar to the 60 variation(10 skies and 12 roots) rotation every year of life.

i profected your sun and moon in my last post(am i accurate dr. farr?) but i don't understand how to profect the degrees of the planets and how to interpret the profected place(my questions to dr. farr)

i quoted your profected moon and sun delineation and my questions to dr. farr.

can you profect degrees of planets or just signs?(for aspects to the natal chart, ie by pauline profection the moon in poyi's profected chart is in taurus opposing the natal sun in scorpio, can you profect the degree of the moon, having an orb for the opposition between the sun and the moon and not the whole sign)

in poyi's birth chart chart, sun is in scorpio and moon is in capricorn.
i profected the sun and the moon. by pauline profection the sun is in pisces and the moon is in taurus and by egyptian profection the sun is in aries and the moon is in gemini. am i accurate? would the profected planets always have the same aspect as in the natal chart(sun sextiles moon)?
how do you interpret the profected place of the planet?
 
Top