how do you predict death?

junoisuppose

Well-known member
I agree with Claire 19 that death can only be predicted accurately as a question of timing if the person is already ill, since the planets that signify death can mean so many different things, and I also agree with Waybread's comments about how large numbers of people with different charts could be killed in a single incident.

Another point related to this is that twins, born on the same day, and sufficiently close in time to have similar ascendants do not always die on the same day. However the other twin will most definitely feel the effects of the death.

Having said that though my mother predicted my grandfather's death (he was already ill) by looking at her chart and the charts of other family members. There were no indicators in his transits or progressions, but there were in the charts of all other family members.

Poyi made a good point about not worrying about predicting death but instead focussing on living life. But it can be useful to know how to predict these things so we can be reassured that someone we love isn't going to die when they are going through a risky situation, for example when going into hospital for an operation.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.....large numbers of people with different charts could be killed in a single incident.
the obvious examples are Hiroshima and Nagasaki August 1946 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Aa8GOBYU0&feature=related :smile:

Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki, with roughly half of the deaths in each city occurring on the first day.

The Hiroshima prefecture health department estimated that, of the people who died on the day of the explosion, 60% died from flash or flame burns, 30% from falling debris and 10% from other causes.

During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness. In a U.S. estimate of the total immediate and short term cause of death, 15–20% died from radiation sickness, 20–30% from burns, and 50–60% from other injuries, compounded by illness. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians, although Hiroshima had a sizeable garrison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
 

MaeMae

Banned
how about 911 victims? oklahoma city bombing victims? chernobl victims, ad infinitum down to the nth, jonestown.
I defy any astrologer to find a common link.
Predicting death is God's or Satan's business, depending on your orientation.
There's a thread up about Lillyjgc, who has passed and predicted her own death.
The first thought that crossed my mind was my friend with uterine cancer who may have believed in the wrong people or possibly DAS?
I mean no disrepect, but my firm belief is that NO human of conscience or conscious should predict death.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
As I said, I did not say such thing without careful consideration. Please read what I said in the reply. I have confirmed that with varies methods before making such conclusion. And I said I can only be certain that as a Major Change regrading to family but death is one of the possiblilty and still we are worried for this possibility. And i said my brother in law has been unwell for a while. They are all my family. Growing up from a difficult childhood, I said my relationship with my sister is very important to me so as her family.....

Pluto is a slow moving planet conjunction to the to the natal moon does not happen every year or every 10 years. Is Transit square, conjunction and opposition suggesting stressful situation regarding to that affected planets.

Anyway, it is better not to predict death. This is my suggestion...very sensitive and debatable topic. Everyone has different idea. Anyhow, Never Mind :)
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
how about 911 victims? oklahoma city bombing victims? chernobl victims, ad infinitum down to the nth, jonestown.
I defy any astrologer to find a common link.
Predicting death is God's or Satan's business, depending on your orientation.
There's a thread up about Lillyjgc, who has passed and predicted her own death.
The first thought that crossed my mind was my friend with uterine cancer who may have believed in the wrong people or possibly DAS?
I mean no disrepect, but my firm belief is that NO human of conscience or conscious should predict death.
Sometimes doctors are wrong. Often mistakes are made because individuals are not always able to decipher the signs... it is best to decide for oneself who to 'believe' and accept the consequences :smile:

IMO the sudden and instant death of more than a hundred thousand people all at the same time at Hiroshima & Nagasaki cannot be compared to these other occasions you have mentioned. Deaths on the scale of the Atomic Bomb were previously unknown. Anyhow we all have our own ideas!

Anyway, it is better not to predict death. This is my suggestion...very sensitive and debatable topic. Everyone has different idea. Anyhow, Never Mind :)
I agree that everyone has a different idea and that we are all equally entitled to discuss our opinion because that is all it is... an opinion. I have said my opinion and it is simply merely an opinion :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
jupiter, when i said "waiting for the enevitable," i was thinking more along lines of a finite date. knowing i will die "someday" gives me the personal impetus to decide on my own terms how my time living is to be spent, not feeling under the gun to fit someone elses timeline.
i had two friends in life who both had terminal illnesses in 90's - one dying with AIDS and years later, one with uterine cancer. my friend with AIDS was given 6 months to live by 3 separate MD's. He lived 19 months after that. The other was given a year, but she passed 5 months later. Her husband once said after her passing, "I think she gave up early, believing those goddamned almighty medicos."
It broke my heart.

MaeMae, thank you for sharing this. There is medical evidence that people who approach a serious illness with a death sentence with courage and determination can live longer than those who become depressed and give up.
www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/health/attitude-a-major-weapon-in-cancer-fight-experts-say A few months even can make a difference in terms of someone's ability to say good-byes, organize their affairs, see the birth of a grandchild, or celebrate a loved one's milestone.

For an astrologer to give a misleading death prediction to a frightened, vulnerable person is morally reprehensible.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
(1) Accuracy rates in astrological death predictions are unacceptably low. This inaccuracy is part of the reason why sensible people gave up on astrology during the Enlightenment. Many of the death clock predictions estimated on some of this forum's threads vary significantly from actual death dates.
(2) Death predictions cannot account for sudden mass deaths (such as for tsunami victims) within a very brief period of time.
(3) Some death predictions defy common sense. For every "signature" such as sun square Pluto, you will find people born with it who live normal lives or people who transition it with no lasting ill effects.
(4) Average life expectancies in the developed West and Japan are now in the upper 70s for men and 80s for women. It defies common sense to imagine that all of these millions of people's hylegs, alcocodons, or what have you suddenly shifted in the late 20th/early 21st centuries to explain this.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Actually, relative to longevity, the tables given in 14 AD by Manilius ("Astronomica") when correctly applied, give potential life expectancies into the 70's and even 80's!!
HOWEVER,
I agree with almost everything expressed above by Waybread: the only real value for determining critical years is:
1) to the ASTROLOGER...
2) so that the astrologer, without alarming the client, can direct that client to care and caution duing WHAT THE ASTROLOGER KNOWS OR SUSPECTS to be, a critical year.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Actually, relative to longevity, the tables given in 14 AD by Manilius ("Astronomica") when correctly applied, give potential life expectancies into the 70's and even 80's!!
HOWEVER,
I agree with almost everything expressed above by Waybread: the only real value for determining critical years is:
1) to the ASTROLOGER...
2) so that the astrologer, without alarming the client, can direct that client to care and caution duing WHAT THE ASTROLOGER KNOWS OR SUSPECTS to be, a critical year.

I agree to dr. Farr direct the client without alarming would be the Best practise.

Before I do readings for my sister and her son. She had already consulted 4 separate readers. I think she said some were professional 8 words readers and some were professional Zhi Wei du shu (Chinese astrologers) over the last 10 years. My sister is also into face and palms reading. She herself picked up some warnings and so went to consult different people. She never told me about consulting other people before i do the reading. So it was an isolated reading. I am actually the fifth person gave her this warning as "Major Change of the household" & "Separation of any forms" which were the same descriptions I gave to my sister. Not really just because of one simple Pluto transit.....

If we happen to see such critical timing during general readings. I think a Real good astrologer or reader, really need to learn how to give positive and inspirational counselling regarding to such interpretation. I think actually good to talk about this. Because we do come across such situation rather we want it or not. As long as we do reading for someone these things do show up from the chart....and people usually comes to occult because of major life issues anyway....so this is one essential quality of a professional astrologer. Even we don't learn how to actively predict a person's death. We should still learn how to direct your client particularly when that is your own family....at the moment my sister is getting more positive and planning to return to work to prepare any kind of critical change in the coming years. :)
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I agree to dr. Farr direct the client without alarming would be the Best practise.

Before I do readings for my sister and her son. She had already consulted 4 separate readers. I think she said some were professional 8 words readers and some were professional Zhi Wei du shu (Chinese astrologers) over the last 10 years. My sister is also into face and palms reading. She herself picked up some warnings and so went to consult different people. She never told me about consulting other people before i do the reading. So it was an isolated reading. I am actually the fifth person gave her this warning as "Major Change of the household" & "Separation of any forms" which were the same descriptions I gave to my sister. Not really just because of one simple Pluto transit.....

If we happen to see such critical timing during general readings. I think a Real good astrologer or reader, really need to learn how to give positive and inspirational counselling regarding to such interpretation. I think actually good to talk about this. Because we do come across such situation rather we want it or not. As long as we do reading for someone these things do show up from the chart....and people usually comes to occult because of major life issues anyway....so this is one essential quality of a professional astrologer. Even we don't learn how to actively predict a person's death. We should still learn how to direct your client particularly when that is your own family....at the moment my sister is getting more positive and planning to return to work to prepare any kind of critical change in the coming years. :)


Absolutely correct (in my opinion):biggrin:!!
 

poyi

Premium Member
I am planning on working on how to counsel people while interpreting their charts.

The greater the knowledge, the greater the responsibility


If I decided to learn astrology, I must also carry this responsibility at the equal level.

Astrology is a Tool for joining the fragments of memories and a Tool to Heal those fragments. The purposes of learning astrology to me are to heal myself, and so, therefore able to achieve the second purpose to heal others.

I am searching for books to read to build strength to achieves these purposes. I first need to heal myself to start with.

"The Counseling Manual in Astrology

This is the last major work of Marc Edmund Jones, completed shortly before his death in 1980. It involves the most important part of the human science of astrology: counseling. Calling upon all the years of acquired knowledge, the learnings, the finer points of astrology, as presented in previous Sabian volumes, this manual presents the pinnacle of the art, opening new realms of understanding, and demonstrating a true master's technique. (American Federation of Astrologers, 1979)."

http://sabian.org/mej_books.php


Last week when I asked my astrologer teacher, as an astrologer how do we deal with our beloved's death. As an inspirational teacher and astrologer, he replied to me with these verses:

"Thy tears are for those beyond tears; and are thy words words of wisdom? The wise grieve not for those who live; and they grieve not for those who die -- for life and death shall pass away." B.G. 2:11

"He who hates not light, nor busy activity, nor even darkness when they are near, neither longs for them when they are far; who unperturbed by changing conditions sits apart and watches and says 'the powers of nature go round', and remains firm and shakes not; who dwells in his inner self, and is the same in pleasure and in pain; to whom gold or stones or earth are one, and what is pleasing and displeasing leave him in peace; who is beyond both praise and blame, and whose mind is steady and quiet; who is the same in honor and disgrace, and has the same love for enemies and friends, who surrenders all selfish undertakings -- this man has gone beyond the three." B.G. 14:22-25

These verses come from The Bhagavad Gita, I managed to find a free PDF copy online. If you want to buy this book can order from bookstore. Very cheap about $10 only. I have got one printed copy by Penguin, coming about next week. My teacher highly recommended this book.

http://www.thebigview.com/download/bhagavad-gita.pdf
[/FONT]

In my opinion, if you decided to learn how to predict death or just happened to notice those signs in a chart by accident; either way, we should prepare ourselves to delivery those messages at the Most positive manner. It is essential for a good astrologer to be able to see the light even at the darkest point and bring your insight/light to your client; this is our responsibility whenever I decide to read for that person. Yes, we are not here to bring fear. So we must learn HOW not to.

I am thankful for all your input on this topic. I have got the enlightenment that I wanted after weeks of searching.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dr. Farr, no doubt a few people lived into ttheir 80s in Manilius's day, but apparently not many: www.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/Life.html

poyi, if you are interested in astrological counseling, a degree in counseling or clinical psychology might be beneficial. However, I think a lot of common sense, life experience, compassion, and reading widely on a range of topics go a long way. You might also be interested in these books on astrological counseling:

Stephen Arroyo, The Practice and Profession of Astrology.

Robert P. Blaschke, Astrology A Language of Life Volume III: A Handbook for the Self Employed Astrologer.

Noel Tyl, Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology: The Professional Manual.

Noel Tyl, ed. Communicating the Horoscope.

If these aren't still in print, hopefully they are available via amazon.com or an Internet used book seller like abebooks.com.

Just one other point I'd like to mention on death prediction, is that men and women today have different average life expectancies: it's higher for women than for men. According to U. N. data, in Poland the difference is about 8 years; in Canada, it is 4 years. In Russia, men's average life expectancy is 64.3 years for men and 76.4 years for women! www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Unfortunately, an astrological chart has no way of compensating for gender differences. You can't tell from a horoscope whether it belongs to a man, women, or chicken (to paraphrase Liz Green) without collateral information.

Also, location is really important in constructing a horoscope, but I am not sure how it would affect the hyleg, alcocodon, or whatnot such that it would compensate for the average life expectancy of a Japanese women (86.1 years) vs. a Russian man. A horoscope can't tell you the state of nutrition, health care, and war or peace in the native's country.

Obviously an average is only an average, not a prediction for any specific individual. But still, demographic data indicate that astrologers' predictions should show comparable patterns if they are accurate.

Obviously life expectancies are only averages, but they indicate that half of a given population is still alive at the magic year. The huge skewing effect towards the elderly in modern times just wouldn't seem to fit into methods developed for times and places when infant mortality was high, and few people lived past middle age.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I am planning on working on how to counsel people while interpreting their charts.

The greater the knowledge, the greater the responsibility


If I decided to learn astrology, I must also carry this responsibility at the equal level.

Astrology is a Tool for joining the fragments of memories and a Tool to Heal those fragments. The purposes of learning astrology to me are to heal myself, and so, therefore able to achieve the second purpose to heal others.

I am searching for books to read to build strength to achieves these purposes. I first need to heal myself to start with.

"The Counseling Manual in Astrology

This is the last major work of Marc Edmund Jones, completed shortly before his death in 1980. It involves the most important part of the human science of astrology: counseling. Calling upon all the years of acquired knowledge, the learnings, the finer points of astrology, as presented in previous Sabian volumes, this manual presents the pinnacle of the art, opening new realms of understanding, and demonstrating a true master's technique. (American Federation of Astrologers, 1979)."http://sabian.org/mej_books.php

Last week when I asked my astrologer teacher, as an astrologer how do we deal with our beloved's death. As an inspirational teacher and astrologer, he replied to me with these verses: "Thy tears are for those beyond tears; and are thy words words of wisdom? The wise grieve not for those who live; and they grieve not for those who die -- for life and death shall pass away." B.G. 2:11

"He who hates not light, nor busy activity, nor even darkness when they are near, neither longs for them when they are far; who unperturbed by changing conditions sits apart and watches and says 'the powers of nature go round', and remains firm and shakes not; who dwells in his inner self, and is the same in pleasure and in pain; to whom gold or stones or earth are one, and what is pleasing and displeasing leave him in peace; who is beyond both praise and blame, and whose mind is steady and quiet; who is the same in honor and disgrace, and has the same love for enemies and friends, who surrenders all selfish undertakings -- this man has gone beyond the three." B.G. 14:22-25

These verses come from The Bhagavad Gita, I managed to find a free PDF copy online. If you want to buy this book can order from bookstore. Very cheap about $10 only. I have got one printed copy by Penguin, coming about next week. My teacher highly recommended this book. http://www.thebigview.com/download/bhagavad-gita.pdf
[/FONT]

In my opinion, if you decided to learn how to predict death or just happened to notice those signs in a chart by accident; either way, we should prepare ourselves to delivery those messages at the Most positive manner. It is essential for a good astrologer to be able to see the light even at the darkest point and bring your insight/light to your client; this is our responsibility whenever I decide to read for that person. Yes, we are not here to bring fear. So we must learn HOW not to.

I am thankful for all your input on this topic. I have got the enlightenment that I wanted after weeks of searching
.
poyi, on another thread dhundhun posted another great quote from bhagavad-gita
I am not scholar of Bhagwat Geeta or Mahabharat. But I think, Lord Krishna is being misquoted - "He gave permission".

He tried his best to avoid war. In battle field, when Arjun saw relatives and friends on opposite side, he developed chorea (huntington) symptoms. He started trembling and sweating. He was fainting. To take him out of his mental/psychological symtoms, Krishna gave lectures to Arjuna. Some of his teachings are:

  • The soul is neither born, nor does it die. The body is made of fire, water, air, earth and ether, and will disappear into these elements. But the soul is permanent - so who are you?

  • Whatever you took, you took from God. Whatever you gave, you gave to him. You came empty handed, you will leave empty handed.

  • What is yours today, belonged to someone else yesterday, and will belong to someone else the day after tomorrow. You are mistakenly enjoying the thought that this is yours. It is this false happiness that is the cause of your sorrows.
Krishna's teaching took Arjuna out of his mental/psychological problems. He did motivate "do your duty, irrespective of whosoever is against you". But he did not give permissions.

I have read his teaching (Bhagwat Geeta) 100s or 1000s times, can't count numbers. I have read Mahabharata 10s of times. It is hard to remember everything. Whatever in memories, Lord Krishna is being mis-quoted. My readings are original Sanskrit as well as its Hindi translations. If someone read that in English translation, translator might have done erroneous translation.
 

poyi

Premium Member
poyi, on another thread dhundhun posted another great quote from bhagavad-gita

Thank your for everyone kindly suggestions. I will keep them in mind. :) I have a look of those books when I got home after work. Recently spent lot of money on books for astrology!!! Feeling broke!! Lol
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Waybread:
An important initial determination made in Hellenist astrology (and found even later in the Islamic transitional era) was "whether or not the child will be raised"; this method apparently attempted to address and compensate for what we would refer to as infant/early childhood mortality potentials. Also, if we look at the Manilius tables, the estimations start at 10 years of age (not at an earlier age): this implies that longevity estimations only were attempted IF the subject had survived infancy and early childhood.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Right, Dr. Farr. We also find the question of whether or not a child would be raised in Tetrabiblos, III.9. It is actually a horrifying concept, because exposing unwanted babies on rubbish heaps and on roadsides was apparently a common practice in Roman times. (wikipedia on infanticide.) The Phoenicians/Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice. So this circumlocution could mean either infant mortality through natural causes or else infanticide.

But here, too, death prediction runs into difficulties. The UN and other social agencies have kept data on infant mortality for decades. Globally infant mortality was high prior to the industrial revolution and so-called demographic transition. Today, throughout most of the industrialized world, child mortality rates are fairly low-- far lower than they were prior to modern improvements in sanitation, nutrition, and health care.

Demographically speaking, once an infant survives the first two years of life, its chances of living at least into adulthood are markedly improved.

But astrological calculations on children cannot possibly account for cultural/national differences in infant mortality. Right now these rates are under 5.5 infant deaths per 1000 live births for the top 25 nations; yet over 100 deaths per 1000 live births in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

So sure, a baby could die in Japan as well as in Angola, but the odds are so much greater (over 1 in 10) of this happening in Angola. You just cannot get these national differences off a horoscope.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Yes I mostly agree with Waybread, and certainly fully agree relative to differences in various locations relative to horoscopes, AS HOROSCOPES ARE DELINEATED ACCORDING TO THE VARIOUS KNOWN METHODOLOGIES! I mean the generally known Hellenistic/Traditionalist/Modernist methods-but are these the only approaches to horoscopic delineation?? Vedic astrology has some very unusual and generally unknown methodologies, and in addition, certain esoteric groups also have almost completely (or totally) unknown special horoscopic techniques: might these other methodologies account for national/regional differences, cultural based differences, results of natural disasters affecting large numbers of subjects (shown in their specially treated horoscopes)?? Until these areas (ie, these largely or completely unknown) methods have been investigated, we cannot be categorical about this matter. I make this point not out of speculation or theory, but rather as a result of certain experiences and investigations of my OWN regarding this subject (little known/unknown alternative horoscopic methodologies/applications)

But-this aside- I largely agree with Waybread's outlook regarding this death-predicition question, and I certainly agree that most of the known methods of longevity estimation only yield, at best, approximations of potential critical years, and in fact are often quite off the mark in their estimations.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
I say it's impossible to predict death accurately by anyone, which of course is my opinion! As someone has stated before, what about the deaths from mass explosions i.e. Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Surely not everyone had the same planet relativities, nor were their birth charts all correlating to the same transits.

Not to mention the different locational deaths that happen too many based on cultural and continental differences (based on waybread's post). Perhaps anyone can predict their death with astrology (much like how a doctor can predict someone's death through medicial experience), but it would be a hard case to crack.

Personaly I feel as if though predicting someone's death should remain taboo, considering death is a very sensative topic to bring up when it comes to ones' or anothers' own life.

I suppose that is why the ancients attributed death to the 8th house along with occults, taboos and other, what I like to think of as, 'dark or mysterious stuff'. This is all my opinion of course, nothing to be taken without a grain of salt.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Personaly I feel as if though prediciting someone's death should remain taboo, considering death is a very sensative topic to bring up when it comes to ones' or anothers' own life. I suppose that is why the ancients attributed death to the 8th house along with occults, taboos and other, what I like to think of as, 'dark or mysterious stuff'. This is all my opinion of course, nothing to be taken without a grain of salt.
IMO SniperBomber328 it is necessary to consider the matter of cultural differences - in some cultures death is not feared - BUT death is feared by many Westerners. Fear of death creates a 'taboo' as well as discouragement of any discussions on the topic of death.

MaeMae succinctly commented earlier

i like to keep it simple.
the moment we are born, our physical death is predicted.
To this I would add the reminder that Doctors and medical staff frequently predict death!
..........agree relative to differences in various locations relative to horoscopes, AS HOROSCOPES ARE DELINEATED ACCORDING TO THE VARIOUS KNOWN METHODOLOGIES! I mean the generally known Hellenistic/Traditionalist/Modernist methods-but are these the only approaches to horoscopic delineation??

Vedic astrology has some very unusual and generally unknown methodologies, and in addition, certain esoteric groups also have almost completely (or totally) unknown special horoscopic techniques: might these other methodologies account for national/regional differences, cultural based differences, results of natural disasters affecting large numbers of subjects (shown in their specially treated horoscopes)?? Until these areas (ie, these largely or completely unknown) methods have been investigated, we cannot be categorical about this matter. I make this point not out of speculation or theory, but rather as a result of certain experiences and investigations of my OWN regarding this subject (little known/unknown alternative horoscopic methodologies/applications)

But-this aside- I largely agree with Waybread's outlook regarding this death-predicition question, and I certainly agree that most of the known methods of longevity estimation only yield, at best, approximations of potential critical years, and in fact are often quite off the mark in their estimations.
Obviously - due to fear of it - death is a taboo subject in the West... however that does not mean that it cannot be predicted using astrological techniques that (due to fear of the subject) are of necessity deliberately kept esoteric You won't find esoteric techniques on a public forum!:smile:




 
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waybread

Well-known member
Thank you, Dr. Farr! Obviously we differ on first principles, but if I would trust any astrologer in a death prediction, it would be you.

JupiterAsc, to say that death is not feared in some cultures is probably incorrect. Certainly some cultures teach their sons that it is glorious to die in battle, or that a beautiful after-life awaits the deceased, or that people should face adversity such as death with calm, and so on. But we cannot generalize from these one-size-fits-all teachings to comment upon how an individual in such a society might face death, as people oftentimes deviate from the position of their religious authorities.

Never forget that the process of dying is often excrutiatingly painful. In an advanced cancer, for example, pain-killers don't touch it. The person may have to cope with experiencing various body-functions shutting down: bladder and bowel control, mobility, mental acuity, and eventually even breathing or swallowing. Think about victims of serious car crashes, with multiple fractures, lacerations, and internal bleeding; or people with major burns over most of their bodies.

Think about the grief of parents who outlive their children. Grief is a universal emotion, even among societies that teach their members to control it outwardly.

I will never forget a documentary on the Vietnam War, when General Westmoreland went on record saying that the Vietnamese--facing the full-scale horrors of war on their soil, including Napalm and Agent Orange, cluster bombing, the Mi Lai massacre, land mines, and so on-- didn't have the same reaction to death as Americans. His astonishing callous statement was juxtaposed with footage of frantically sobbing Vietnamese women literally trying to throw themselves into the graves of loved ones during burial ceremonies.

The astrologer is in no position to judge how a client or their terminally ill spouse will react to a death prediction. Playing God in this way strikes me as the ultimate in hubris; notably if there is a high probability that the prediction will be flat-out wrong.

This is different than talking about death. I don't see many taboos about discussing death in Canada. Rather, I have attended several funerals in the past year, was invited to attend a seminar on estate planning, and just learned that my brother was recently diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer. I try to be guided by his own wishes as whether to discuss it or not, not some illusory western societal taboo.

I live surrounded by retirees, many of whom are moving into the realization that they don't have many years left: certainly not active years of good health. I hear their news about visiting ageing friends and relatives in hospital, and so on. One of our neighbours died a lingering death from complications of lupus. Yes, we talked about her.

The assertion that our death is predicted at the moment of birth flies in the face of evidence, some of which I have offered in previous posts. Take the examples of today's extraordinarily high life expectancies in industrialized countries, and their plummeting rathes of infant mortality. Horoscopes simply cannot accommodate these national and gender differences. Nobody rectifies a birth chart to account for whether the native is a woman born in Japan or a man in HIV-AIDS-ravaged southern Africa, yet it makes a huge difference to longevity outcomes.

Medical doctors (such as oncologists) who predict death undergo rigorous education and licensing exams that simply have no parallel in astrology. An American MD with a specialization in a relevant field would first of all complete a 4-year university degree, then face extremely competitive admissions standards to get into medical school. Medical school takes another 4 years, followed by board exams, an internship, and residency. All the while s/he would be closely scrutinized by professors and other physicians in a teaching hospital setting. Then s/he would face further testing to be qualified as a member of a particular group of specialists, such as the American College of Physicians.

If the doctor makes repeated wildly inaccurate death predictions, s/he can face disciplinary measures from a local medical board. Then doctors frequently state qualified predictions like, "Most patients with your condition live an average of one to five years," rather than giving a specific date.

Astrology? I could take out a business license and advertise my professional services tomorrow, with no claim to any expertise whatsoever. Although professional astrology organizations like the AFA and NCGR offer courses, exams, and credentials; nobody is obligated to take them in order to scare the pants off clients regarding one of the most difficult and sensitive issues of life-- and then to be incorrect, to boot.

There simply is no comparison here. Moreover, non-MD "medical staff" [sic] are legally prohibited from practicing medicine without a license, which includes death prediction.

To chalk up all of the problems of astrological death prediction to some western taboo on discussing death doesn't address the half of it. For shame.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you, Dr. Farr! Obviously we differ on first principles, but if I would trust any astrologer in a death prediction, it would be you.
But you frequently and categorically assert that you believe that "death prediction" using astrological methods is impossible
JupiterAsc, to say that death is not feared in some cultures is probably incorrect
On the contrary, IMO the statement is probably correct
The assertion that our death is predicted at the moment of birth flies in the face of evidence...
All the evidence is that EVERYONE who has ever been born shall inevitably at some stage experience the process of death and dying. Obviously, therefore our death is predicted at the moment of birth - because without exception, all those who are born are on their way to their own personal experience of death.
To chalk up all of the problems of astrological death prediction to some western taboo on discussing death doesn't address the half of it. For shame.
On the contrary, a consistent and vociferous tendency to denigrate the astrological techniques that are the subject of this discussion - furthermore by many who have not even studied these techniques in any depth - is clearly influenced by some form of fear of death that makes such discussions taboo. That taboo is responsible for the general discouragement/mockery of the discussion of these techniques. Thus, anyone requiring any meaningful or useful discussion concerning these techniques is advised to join an esoteric group :smile:
 
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