Strength of Planetary Joys

Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:

Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:
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That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?
 
MSO

MSO

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?
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The idea being that since the 12th House is inherently negative, Saturn joys there since it's the author of mischief.
 
MSO

MSO

Well-known member
dr farr already explained it, the fourth house is related to fathers and ancestors, two things which Saturn represents in a natal chart.
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
OK. I have Saturn in the 4th square Mercury in the 1st. Wouldn't Mercury in the 1st just make you talk about yourself too much?

Does Joy take a planet out of peregrinity? I'm still wondering how many points one Joy is so I can do more scoring...
 
MSO

MSO

Well-known member
Joy is an accidental dignity. I'm pretty sure whether a planet is peregrine or not is determined by essential dignity only, though I could be wrong. But I have heard that reception can take a planet out of it.
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Reception can take a planet out of peregrine? I've heard that it can't so I'm confused. Someone who knows, please answer! Also please tell me how many points a Joy is. I'm thinking +3, but I'm probably wrong.

[edit: *of peregrine]
 
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MSO

MSO

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
Reception can take a planet out? I've heard that it can't so I'm confused. Someone who knows, please answer! Also please tell me how many points a Joy is. I'm thinking +3, but I'm probably wrong.
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I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
Rebel Uranian said:
Does Joy take a planet out of peregrinity? I'm still wondering how many points one Joy is so I can do more scoring...
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Yes, this was one of the main things in my head when I set up this thread. Thankfully another member did mention on page 1 that he puts +3 for a planet in joy.

I've a similar situation to yourself so I was very interested in that question. I think we're good! :biggrin:
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
MSO said:
I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...
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Dignity and debility is a hot debate on various threads on here right now, check out some ideas in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5232&page=10



Don't miss this site and article if you are curious about this
http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/mercury-gemini-mercury-virgo-not-strong-intellect/

The author here points out that dignity and debility indicates power, not good or bad. Also, on the first link I put above ^^ there is another member who has conducted scientific research on IQ scores of different Mercury placements. Mercury in Pisces (fall, detriment) scores higher than most by far. The point is, there seems to be growing consensus that dignity and debility today are misrepresented as good and bad. Some older astro books I read showed that the same dignity can give you strength to achieve your ambitious or kill many people - it's about power not good or bad, seemingly...:whistling:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
MSO I said:
JUPITERASC said:
the 12th house has negative connotations and nevertheless therefore can "accommodate the negative" in the form of Saturn who Joys in both the 12th and the 4th houses as dr. farr earlier explained

Rebel Uranian the 12th is a Cadent House, therefore as you have said, any Malefic therein would be unable to harm the native (Hellenistic Astrology) :smile:

Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:
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a response to which you MSO objected as follows:

MSO said:
What's with the cocky responses when you don't even know what you're talking about?
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talking to yourself :smile:
MSO you then simply reworded what I had written
MSO said:
The idea being that since the 12th House is inherently negative, Saturn joys there since it's the author of mischief.
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which is what I said when I said:
JUPITERASC said:
Saturn, being malefic enjoys the negative connotations of the 12th house :smile:
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Rebel Uranian you said:
Rebel Uranian said:
That works for now, but to me it seems like a double negative. The 12th house restrains things in a way, and Saturn is restraint, so it's restraining restraint?
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Exactly. A double negative is a plus. Saturn takes pleasure in restraint and restraining :smile:
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
MSO said:
I've heard that it can't take it out of detriment/fall. But maybe I'm confusing the two. I don't know...
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QUOTE
"Just as essential dignity signifies strength and a capacity for beneficial action, lack of it implies weakness or a harmful disposition. A planet with no essential dignity is called Peregrine, a Latin word meaning 'alien' or 'foreigner' (pereger = beyond the borders, ager = land, i.e., 'beyond one's own land'). In old English, to 'peregrinate' means to wander far from home.

In symbolic terms, a peregrine planet describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment.

Property owners tend to view drifters with suspicion, and distrust their lack of stability. (CA. p.112)

Under normal circumstances a peregrine planet lacks the necessary strength to convey lasting benefit. Its position of weakness can be alleviated, however, if it is strongly dignified accidentally or if it forms a mutual reception with a stronger planet."

source http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html :smile:
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
I'm still wondering if reception takes a planet out of peregrinity. I mean, some of the scores for my peregrine planets in reception are already 6x a "high" scoring planet regardless of whether it does, it's just more impressive if it's 9x a "high" score rather than merely 6x.

Edit: I'm assuming that's a no? I shouldn't assume because we all know what assumptions make when you make them.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
I'm still wondering if reception takes a planet out of peregrinity. I mean, some of the scores for my peregrine planets in reception are already 6x a "high" scoring planet regardless of whether it does, it's just more impressive if it's 9x a "high" score rather than merely 6x.

Edit: I'm assuming that's a no? I shouldn't assume because we all know what assumptions make when you make them.
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Rebel Uranian it is ok to make assumptions because we all make assumptions, then we all challenge each others assumptions - that's debate. :smile:

Whether a particular reception is of any value is dependent upon (a) its essential dignity/debility and (b) whether the two planets concerned are in aspect

A peregrine planet is in a precarious condition.

If a peregrine planet is in mutual reception with a stronger planet that is of no value to the peregrine planet unless the two planets are in aspect. If the two planets are in aspect then the condition of the peregrine planet is alleviated
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian said:
You mean in aspect within 8*? If there are two peregrine planets in reception are in aspect, are they both alleviated?
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I wrote: "If a peregrine planet is in mutual reception with a stronger planet"

and also the two planets must be in aspect.

Two peregrine planets in aspect and mutual reception would not be of much assistance to each other. They would be helping each other but would have few resources in order to do so - however, that would be better than each peregrine planet being totally without any assistance at all. Something is better than nothing. :smile:
 
byjove

byjove

Account Closed
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
byjove said:
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:
Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...
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alleviate - Can mean "diminish the weight of"; to alleviate is not to cure, but rather to lighten, lessen, or relieve to some degree.
Alleviate = to make (pain, sorrow, etc.) easier to bear; lessen; relieve
from Late Latin alleviāre to mitigate, from Latin levis light:smile:
 
D

dr. farr

Well-known member
Parasara (mainstream) Vedic uses even more considerations than Western Traditional in determining planetary STRENGTH, which for them is the same as "dignity" is for our Western approach: anciently too, in the West, it seems that dignity/debility had to do with potential POWER (ie, INFLUENCE) of the given planet, not for whether that influence would be "good" or "bad".
...but I myself look at dignity indicating power of the planet to express its "healthy" qualities (its essential qualities), and debility in difficulty in such expression; hence for me a dignified (net dignified) planet is a constructive influence and a debilitated (net detrimented) planet is a disruptive influence, in the given chart.
But I want to re-iterate that this is only the way I look at it; historically in both Traditionalist and (mainstream) Vedic astrology, dignity/debility was exclusively considered relative to the POWER or STRENTH of the planet to express itself, whether for "good" or for "evil"...
 
Rebel Uranian

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
byjove said:
This discussion has helped me hugely. I took another look at dignity and re-found that mixed reception alleviates a planet from peregrination, so some of my planets are now alleviated:

Mutual Reception - poorly dignified can escape.

Mars: Jupiter and Mars in each other's face

Mercury: Mars in the term of Mercury, Mercury
in the face and triplicy of Mars

Moon: in joy in 3rd house

Jupiter: Venus is in Jupiter's face and Jupiter
is in Venus' term

These are the receptions of only the planets I was concerned about. So now I have no peregrine planets...(?) ...
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You can't mix anything when the total dignities for an individual planet sum less than 3 if I understand correctly. Plus, it'd have to be like Jupiter in Taurus and the Moon in Cancer, not Saturn in Aries and the Sun in Aquarius, to alleviate the peregrine planet(s).

dr. farr said:
...but I myself look at dignity indicating power of the planet to express its "healthy" qualities (its essential qualities), and debility in difficulty in such expression; hence for me a dignified (net dignified) planet is a constructive influence and a debilitated (net detrimented) planet is a disruptive influence, in the given chart.
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Good and evil are now quantified.
 
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