The Deep Disturbances of Pluto

Perhaps Pluto in Capricorn will help re-define the whole nature of authority.

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Maybe now Pluto is the authority? Almost like in school, you switch classes from the happy Philosophy teacher with jokes, to the mean dark Professor teaching about the cold, harsh realities of History and the world we live in. Pluto's is the Pass or Fail class, there's no in between with him.

How Pluto is affecting us all is excellent food for thought. Because we no longer live in a traditional world where you go to college, get a good job, get a house with the white picket fence(Saturn's boundaries), get a good pension, and live happily ever after.

These days, a college degree doesnt guarantee anything, jobs are hard to come by, the economy is down, foreclosure rates are up, the recession is eating up people's 401k's, and we may not even have Social Security in the future. It seems grim, but at the same token, Pluto removes what's old to make way for something better and new. At least that's what we have been optimistically thinking coming out of Jupiter's Philosophy class. Saturn is a strict teacher, and I guess we're all being disciplined extremely harshly as Pluto takes over his class, and eliminates the weakest links..

gaer said:

Women? The leader of Germany is a woman. Clinton is Secretary of State and came rather close to possibly becoming president. The number of top positions held by women is increasing. Perhaps what we will see is a stablization of the changes already set into motion in ways that are practical as well as idealized.

What do you think?

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By the feminine, I mean feminine values. For me, Hillary is a man in a pants suit, married to a 63 yr old adolescent.

Most women in positions of (traditional) power, such as Secretary of State, have to adopt masculine values and even behaviour in order to survive, as politics and government generally is a bull pit. Take the recent altercation Hillary had when someone was misinterpreted, and the question came at her something like: "What does Mr Clinton think of.....?" and poor Hillary went ballistic - with good reason, too.

In Australia, our 2 IC (called Deputy Leader, or some such) is a woman - Julia Gillard - and the press give her such stick about her hair, clothes, accent (broad Australian, and were she to speak with a plummy educated accent they have a go at her about that too) so much so that how effective she is at her job is very hard to determine. In order to be taken seriously she'd have to `do a Hillary', and become a rottweiler, but that then just makes her another bloke.

Sorry - just needed to rant about that. I haven't necessarily taken up the issue of `feminine values', but have given some reasons why feminine values never see the light of day in the public arena, and if they do, they are derided.

Shining Ray: you said,
"Yes I agree not everything needs to surface, and some secrets are best kept. I told an ex once a private secret, and in the next arguement, he used it against me, and used my very painful secret as an insult. I was sorry I never kept it buried."

Was he a Scorpio? Because in my experience that is a very Scorpionic thing to do...that and trying to take back gifts they give you once the relationship is on the rocks...LOL

The man who is a racist: you didn't mention the position of Jupiter in his chart, and I always notice when people are bigots or have extreme prejudice it usually begins with having been taught some "system" of philosophy as a child...like the song in South Pacific says, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear..."

I don't mind being 'wrong' when giving a reading. In fact, I encourage the client to question my diagnosis if they think I'm on the wrong track.
By the same token, being 'right' is of no use to me if it's of no use to the client. Often I will get them to open up the second time I see them, if they come back. Most people are satisfied with what they get from me, and most are amazed at the content of the information they get, because people who have never had a legitimate reading just don't know what to expect!
BUT I am not satisfied unless I "turn the key" to the core issue. Because I am at heart a philosopher I am not satisfied with just getting a fee. I want results! LOL
but back to the original topic, sometimes I'll dig deep and know I've hit paydirt, but the client will neither admit or reject what I have revealed....but...it's all on tape so I KNOW that eventually it will be 'heard.' Often THEY will bring up that taboo subject the next time I see them, especially if something I have predicted, based ON that issue, comes to pass.


LIN

R4VEN said:

By the feminine, I mean feminine values. For me, Hillary is a man in a pants suit, married to a 63 yr old adolescent.

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Of course I see your point. To me it's a matter of society, as usual, changing SO slowly. My POV may be a bit different. I look at the way things were a century or two centuries ago. Viewed with that perspective, I think things are better. The problem is that there is such a long way to go.

It may also be that until a greater level of equality is reached, we may not see a sincere exploration of the "feminine". I really don't even like that word. My job is something that typically women have always done, and I'm very good at it. I work with very young children. I'm a teacher. (Not all my students are very young, but many are.) I would hate to be defined as "feminine" because I work well with small children, or because I am very intuitive and empathic.

Sorry - just needed to rant about that. I haven't necessarily taken up the issue of `feminine values', but have given some reasons why feminine values never see the light of day in the public arena, and if they do, they are derided.

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Where I'd like to go, if we can, is to explore what has happened as Pluto goes through each sign (or has gone through each sign). If I got started about what I think of most politicians, it would not only turn into a gigantic rant, it would also be deleted because it would be totally off topic.

g

Where I'd like to go, if we can, is to explore what has happened as Pluto goes through each sign (or has gone through each sign). If I got started about what I think of most politicians, it would not only turn into a gigantic rant, it would also be deleted because it would be totally off topic.


I hear ya about the politicians.

But as to the exploration of Pluto through the signs, Pluto in Scorpio should be discussed thoroughly imo. There are a whole lot of that generation here and I see it as a big resurgence in Astrology. It may be partially due to the uranus/neptune conjunction in sag and cap as well I suppose.
I have a lot of faith in the Pluto in Scorpio generation. I feel that they will get to the crux of our problems, and root out the deadwood and help us rise above. I hope so anyway.

katydid said:

Where I'd like to go, if we can, is to explore what has happened as Pluto goes through each sign (or has gone through each sign). If I got started about what I think of most politicians, it would not only turn into a gigantic rant, it would also be deleted because it would be totally off topic.


I hear ya about the politicians.

But as to the exploration of Pluto through the signs, Pluto in Scorpio should be discussed thoroughly imo. There are a whole lot of that generation here and I see it as a big resurgence in Astrology. It may be partially due to the uranus/neptune conjunction in sag and cap as well I suppose.
I have a lot of faith in the Pluto in Scorpio generation. I feel that they will get to the crux of our problems, and root out the deadwood and help us rise above. I hope so anyway.

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I'm not just thinking of generations, though of course that is always of interest.

After all, Pluto moves very slowly at one end of its orbit and very quickly at the other, I think varying from about 12 to 31 years. At the beginning of the 20th century it was moving very slowly, but by the end very quickly. I have lived through Pluto in Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio and Sag. (By that I mean that I was born when Pluto was still in Leo.) Now it's in Cappy.

Those of us who are "boomers" once tried to change the world. We were still right in the middle of this when Pluto entered Libra, and in fact many things accelerated. Most people are not old enough to remember Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs, the celebrated "battle of the sexes" tennis challenge (1973). But if you think back to then, so many of the things that were set into motion largely in the 60s really took off in the 70s. Women's rights, Stonewall (summer 1969) was a huge part of the start of the Gay Rights Movement, and a great deal of change in so many other areas happened in the 1970s.

In comparision, Pluto in Scorpio (1983-1995) was a darker time for my generation. First, AIDS was barely known in the very early 80s but soon changed the world. The boomers earlier only had to worry about pregnancy. Any sexually transmitted disease was easily taken care of. By the mid 80s the rules changed, and our children were growing up in a world in which the kind of freedom we took for granted could end their lives, and quickly.

Other people can make up their own minds about Pluto in Sag. To me it was a period of greed and unreasonable optimism that culminated in the insanity of all that caused the present global down-turn. It was during that period when bank regulations (and all kinds of regulations) went out the window. Consumerism became more important than making or creating things (manufacturing, work).

I think Pluto in Cappy is all about taking responsibility. Of course, there is a lot more to it than that, but I think that's the big change we are seeing right now.

Thoughts?

Whoa, we're talking taboo here and Pluto, Saturn, and Neptune have been mentioned... but what about dear old Uranus?

When we're equating secrets with taboos, I think Uranus needs to get involved. Uranus shows where dramatic changes emerge to shock and horrify, and when we shove that shockwave down Pluto brings it back out after it's festered (unlike Saturn, which restricts and contains it, keeps it together so it doesn't fester).

I feel like I have a lot of secrets and it is Uranus' fault (for lack of better idea construction). I simply don't share most of my life because so much of it is bizarre and I don't feel like people can relate to many of my experiences without a LOT of explaining (Uranus in the 7th house).


As for the generational stuff... I agree with gaer. Although my generation (Pluto scorp) also went through the Sag Scorp days, and for me as a child, the lack of regulation caused us to be exposed to many aspects of life that were usually censored to children while adults scrambled to figure out how to close our eyes (unsuccesfully). I think, as my generation comes of age during Pluto in Capricorn, we are learning that the lack of regulation we experienced in childhood had deep effects on our lives, and it is pushing us to be responsible and take things more seriously.

divine g said:

Shining Ray,
Thank you so much for the links, very eye-opening reading about Pluto in Libra in relationships. Im dealing with a Plutonian relationship where my on/off again partner has her South Node conjunct my natal Pluto. Our relationship is karmic and it seems I may have been controlling of her in a past life, and her lesson in this life is to learn how to be independent. I think many men may be facing karmic repercussions from the past when women were denied alot of equal rights.

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It is a highly charged topic talking about women's supression, and things have changed. Still I don't think women have all the equal rights of men. I remember reading in Astrology for Lovers by Liz Greene that the thing that most upset objected to in regards to Joan of Arc, was the fact that she wore men's clothing. It was considered unforgivable!!! In those times Men should be "Men" and women should be "women". With the South Node/Pluto in Libra connection. You have to be very aware of the subtle powerplays in relationship and relate equally and keep the relationship balanced.

I just wanted to add another aspect of Pluto that is HUGE these days and is sweeping through our society, and it's the prevalence of the sex industry/****/violence and sex on TV etc.

I believe Pluto rules prostitution, which is the exploitation women's sexuality for profit. Again, a deep, dark taboo subject that may even be too heavy for this thread. Pluto's entry into Capricorn is, in a word...scary. Saturn's rigid structures can be smashed into pieces by Pluto's atomic energy. So much of this dark, sexual energy is coming up into the structure of our society. The most disturbing images are just a click away on our home computers. What kind of sick, demented society will result from this, only time will tell.

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Pluto through the signs removes all that is superficial. We are slowly transforming our relationship to the goverment. Since the whole "petty cash" scam here in England - when the use of tax payers money was ill-used for MP's "living" expenses, and we are all now mistrustful of the goverment. It was abuse on a large scale of society's resources. Trust has been destroyed in authority in general and it will take a long time to rebuild that trust again.

Abuse stories have been widely publicized since Pluto moved into Capricorn - and it has been hard to digest. A recent story of abuse involved a Nursury Teacher, and now people can't even feel safe sending their children to school. Authorities are supposed to protect the children in their care. The teacher in question exposed these kids on the internet to two other paedophiles. You are right on about the dark energy pervading society at the moment, and I am glad you voiced it.

I feel a bit uncomfortable bringing up these subjects, but that just goes to show exactly how taboo Pluto and the 8th house can be. But with Pluto entering Capricorn, which rules the 10th, alot of private sex scandals, etc are being made public. My s/o has Pluto in Scorpio in 12th, and she is VERY strong-willed. It's interesting to note how, these days, many women have no problem exploiting their own sexuality for profit. But 9/10 of those in the sex industry, prostitution, exotic dancing, etc, were sexually abused as children. The wound goes so deep, there's not much anyone can really do about it, the damage has been done, they're traumatized for life.I know people like that, especially one Scorpio ex. And since Pluto rules generations, that whole generation is like that to a certain degree. This other girl Im talking about seems to be attracted to anything and everything dangerous. I told her that, but she doesn't seem to be aware of it. She also has her Moon in the 8th house. In the 8th house, there is a link between sex and death, and when taken to an extreme, can lead to deep disturbances, like David Carradine who apparently died during some strange sex act.

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Hasn't David Letterman just been exposed for a sex scandal, I was reading it online today. No one is safe at the moment!!

Again, it's hard to talk about in a public setting, thus, most people keeping these subjects in the dark, and secret. With Scorpio being a fixed sign, it makes sense that people want their deep dark 8th house secrets to stay there. But who knows, with it being the house of death and rebirth, maybe discussing it, and bringing it to light is the only way to heal it?

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If you don't talk about these issues they tend to come out in distorted ways. It is always difficult talking about Pluto and we do need to air them a times.

Lin said:

Shining Ray: you said,
"Yes I agree not everything needs to surface, and some secrets are best kept. I told an ex once a private secret, and in the next arguement, he used it against me, and used my very painful secret as an insult. I was sorry I never kept it buried."

Was he a Scorpio? Because in my experience that is a very Scorpionic thing to do...that and trying to take back gifts they give you once the relationship is on the rocks...LOL

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Hi Lin he had Moon in Scorpio, most of his planets fell in my 8th house. He had a way of taking me undeground kicking and screaming. I am so glad that I surfaced from that relationship. Although it was probably to aid my psychological growth. Still it was hard going and not something I want to repeat again.

The man who is a racist: you didn't mention the position of Jupiter in his chart, and I always notice when people are bigots or have extreme prejudice it usually begins with having been taught some "system" of philosophy as a child...like the song in South Pacific says, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear..."

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He was the man who assinated Martin Luther King, his early background wasn't stable and he was moved into foster care. The square was from the 4th house and so I do definitely believe it originated from his family.

I don't mind being 'wrong' when giving a reading. In fact, I encourage the client to question my diagnosis if they think I'm on the wrong track.
By the same token, being 'right' is of no use to me if it's of no use to the client. Often I will get them to open up the second time I see them, if they come back. Most people are satisfied with what they get from me, and most are amazed at the content of the information they get, because people who have never had a legitimate reading just don't know what to expect!
BUT I am not satisfied unless I "turn the key" to the core issue. Because I am at heart a philosopher I am not satisfied with just getting a fee. I want results! LOL
but back to the original topic, sometimes I'll dig deep and know I've hit paydirt, but the client will neither admit or reject what I have revealed....but...it's all on tape so I KNOW that eventually it will be 'heard.' Often THEY will bring up that taboo subject the next time I see them, especially if something I have predicted, based ON that issue, comes to pass.LIN

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I was wondering the other day why people go to astrologers. And perhaps the reasons vary. Some people want a prediction on the future, or others just want to understand themselves better. If an astrologer hits on a core inssue in my chart it is powerful because it has been acknowledged. There is a greater awareness of something within yourself. It is good to have readings on tape because things in a reading are not always revealing at that particular time - but later something happens and it all comes into focus. You undestand what the astrolgoer was saying and you usually replay the tape with a different mental attitude.

divine g said:

I believe Pluto rules prostitution, which is the exploitation women's sexuality for profit. Again, a deep, dark taboo subject that may even be too heavy for this thread. Pluto's entry into Capricorn is, in a word...scary. Saturn's rigid structures can be smashed into pieces by Pluto's atomic energy. So much of this dark, sexual energy is coming up into the structure of our society. The most disturbing images are just a click away on our home computers. What kind of sick, demented society will result from this, only time will tell.

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This was a very interesting point.
I am really enjoying this conversation. How do you know what different generations are under what signs?

As a person with Pluto in early Virgo and Saturn natally at my MC in Capricorn, Plutos transit into Capricorn will trine natal Pluto while 'transforming" natal Saturn and MC/IC. However it will also square AC/DC at 5'40 Capricorn. It will also form an inconjunction to natal mars (chart ruler), venus, uranus stellium in the 5th. Natal Pluto is in my natal 6th and its only opposition is to Chiron at 27 degrees Aquarius in the 12th. Pluto rules my 8th house.
First I would like to say thank you as this thread is a wake up call particularly the link to Deva Greens articles. My chart has taken on a whole new meaning!
I can only share my experiences as I am still learning here but I think I can add to this idea.
As Pluto transited my 9th house and opposed my sun (and squared my moon) I was finishing a Master degree. This story in and of itself has many correlations to my chart but in short this was a return to school at age 45. During this same time frame I was present at the death of two individuals. One, a stranger who died of an embolism in our offices...in our office. No one knew what to do and because I work with disabilities they thought I could do something. CPR was not helpful.
The second death was an office worker and by fate or coincidence a small group of people were with her in the hospital as she passed including me. This was a sudden event of the heart in which nothing could be done but ameliorate her pain. In addition, my partner of 12 years suffered a heart attack.He completely withdrew for six months during that time so I was alone coping with all these traumatic emotions.
During this time I had a breast reduction (moon) as an old C5 neck injury (saturn) which was causing me chronic severe headaches. At the time I had rather er uh large breasts for my petite stature.
Post surgery recovery I saw the diseased office worker and she spoke to me! She asked me about my partner. She asked me 'Where is he?" I was in a dream/wake sleep but I have never experienced anything so vivid.
I suffered almost a post traumatic stress from these events. Death has taken on a whole new meaning. I am obseesed with watching Ghost Hunters, ghost Whispers, Ghost anything!
This is Pluto through my 9th house...we have Pluto inconnection to 8th house and death , Pluto with surgery, with transformation of moon (breast reduction) Pluto transformation of sun (male relationship) through connection to death, Pluto transformation of personal philosophy through trauma....gosh...
Now Pluto is at 00 degrees capricorn. As I read Deva article I was freaked in my own quite way. North node in 7th at 9 degrees Libra squares Saturn at 4 '38 Capricorn and Mercury at 5' 25 in the 4th. In addition to Plutos opposition to Chiron I wonder what Karmic lessons I will battle as the northnodes journey through Capricorn.
Thus far our family dynamics underwent an evolution over the summer as we were told my mothers doctor she needed to be in an assisted living environment. We moved her out of our childhood home and in with my older sister.
-My job will undergo a changes as money is tight and we will have to work with less (saturn restriction). We will only be able to serve the most severely disabled individuals. This will begin in January. I expect more changes will come.
-I have begun a battle with basal cell cancer (saturn=skin, bones) this summer at the time I moved my mother out.
-My partnership of 14 years ended this week which in itself was a focus on Pluto. This relationship may have been the evolutionary process that Deva described. I could almost put the pieces together as I read her article.
- My son will graduate in 2011.
Clearly work, home, children, parents, relationships will undergo transitions and transformations including themes of mortality.
I guess my only question is what does Pluto in Virgo represent? Is this the connection to health?
I am in hopes this journey I shared elucidates the developing identification of Plutos role.

Shining Ray said:

......what areas in life are considered taboo? I assume those parts of life we want to hide, and don't want to talk about.......like sex before marriage, or same sex relationships, and domestic abuse

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It's already been referred to in various ways and by various contributors, but I'm wondering what a taboo is; how it originates; why/if it needs to "die"; how that death is intended to happen and the role of each planet in the whole process.......For example :-

Are taboos simply neccessary Saturn restrictions which have outlived their evolutionary purpose, but have become so impressed upon the psyche of a society (by time or severity of enforcement) that something "extraordinary" is needed to remove them?......And is that thing brought about (consciously) by intellectual questioning (Uranus), interactions with others who have begun to feel these restrictions need to be dissolved/removed (Neptune) and controlled action to produce the irresistable pressure required to achieve this objective (Pluto)?......Or does it happen (unconsciously) through compulsive rebellious actions by the masses?

Thus, the concept of no sex before marriage originates at a time when people are so poor that any addition to the family will (literally) result in starvation......(So Saturn is acting here to impose a restriction which enures survival, and punishment for transgression is necessarily severe.).......But, what is learned over time is that "sex before marriage will be punished severely", with the original reason becoming forgotten along the way......(So the Saturn restriction becomes a taboo that is "adhered to without question".)......Then, despite the risk of starvation from having too many mouths to feed having disappeared (in some countries) by the 1960's, the taboo remains until Uranus/Neptune/Pluto combine forces to facilitate it's removal......(albeit way after the time this might have happened if people had been working consciously rather than unconsciously with these evolutionary planetary influences).

Would Pluto have less rulership as we gradually grow and change our attitudes? Perhaps we wouldn't feel he was forced upon us in order for us to REALLY CHANGE. How do you all view transformation, it is a word we throw about with ease, but what does transformation really mean to you?

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Pluto will have less power over us as we become conscious of his influence......and work with him to achieve necessary evolutionary changes......Our conscious co-operation with the forces of evolution/planetary influences is what "transformation" means to me.

EJ

EJ... i like your thinking on taboos....if you dont talk about it you cant change it.

As fpr pluto losing power, i think it just changes from negative to positive, esoteric to exoteric.

Many people here are developing a positive approach to pluto which is really fascinating...its changing the world i think.....

fleaxxx

flea said:

As fpr pluto losing power, i think it just changes from negative to positive, esoteric to exoteric.

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We may be saying the same thing in different ways here, Flea......I think planets lose their ability to control us when we become conscious of how they work in our lives.......We can then consciously use it's (undiminished) power negatively or positively, but would probably opt for the latter.

Many people here are developing a positive approach to pluto which is really fascinating...its changing the world i think.....

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Yes......fingers crossed that we reach the "100,000th monkey" point before Theo's predictions for 2010 materialise.

Good to "speak" with you again, Moderator Flea.

EJ

ha ha ..... I dont feel any different as part of this little community. Tho it is nice to step in and support the place on a more obvious level. I really like it here, there are some fascinating open discussions where people really listen and take time to understand what another is trying to say, not just pushing one whell barrow.

Yep there is a sense that pluto stops controlling and starts to ask us where we want to go. This is where we take ownership of our own power and decide how to use it. Hopefuilly for the greater good in my case but it depends on what the reason for your journey here is. Work on the solar plexus chakra I feel is very very good for pluto.

FleaXXX

flea said:

......I really like it here, there are some fascinating open discussions where people really listen and take time to understand what another is trying to say, not just pushing one wheel barrow....

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Message received and understood, Flea......However, I fear my ability to comprehend anything these days is declining rapidly, no matter how much time or effort I put into trying to do so.......but pushing the wheelbarrow makes me feel I'm still contributing.

EJ

flea said:

Yep there is a sense that pluto stops controlling and starts to ask us where we want to go. This is where we take ownership of our own power and decide how to use it. Hopefuilly for the greater good in my case but it depends on what the reason for your journey here is. Work on the solar plexus chakra I feel is very very good for pluto.

FleaXXX

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Yes! This is precisely how I see Pluto and the Plutonic pull for transformation. Thank-you for mentioning the solar plexus chakra, and focusing there as a way to positively embrace and use Pluto's power for change.

Pluto's movement into Capricorn for me, is an exciting one. I see for others, such as Gemini59, such a change may bring a bit of terror with it. I do think, however, that one could rest-assured knowing that, since Pluto does move very slowly, the changes won't be dramatic, or maybe we won't really know what the changes are until afterward. I also think Pluto has this "numbing" quality to it, quite literally like being put under. It is important to remember the traditional rulership associated with Scorpio and the 8th house as that of Mars. Death represents the transformation (maybe the end of, I don't know) the drive for Life, which is definitely epitomized by Mars. So for death to be an active possibility as it relates to Pluto and its impact on a natal chart as it moves into a new sign and makes new contacts, I would have to think Mars and Uranus would have to also be involved, as well as the Sun. Just my two cents though-- don't want you to worry much Gemini59!



I do feel blessed, however, for my natal placements (never thought I'd be saying that one!) in regards to Pluto's movement into Capricorn. I've included my chart if people want to take a look. Moreover, the Pluto in Capricorn Square to Uranus in Aries and Saturn in Virgo (also opposing), is also incredibly beneficial for me. Uranus (also conjunct my Jupiter) will be trining my Sun and sextiling my Moon, and Saturn will be sextiling my Sun and trining my Moon. Pluto will be sitting atop my ASC and Neptune while this happening, sextiling my Natal Pluto and MC, and trining my natal Venus in the 8th. Sorry a lot about me there... I'm just excited! I'll be reporting here from my side letting everyone know what it's like...

I like when the taboo stuff comes to the surface. "Time to clean the aquarium"

Also, R4VEN,
"By the feminine, I mean feminine values. For me, Hillary is a man in a pants suit, married to a 63 yr old adolescent."

Very funny! But I love Bill in his adolescence. He is so charming... plus Hil is always wearing those pink dress suits and flipping her hair out. She definitely tries to play down the "inner man."

mod.