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Unread 01-27-2013, 01:43 PM
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detriment and fall?

I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??

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Unread 01-27-2013, 04:22 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Good question.

The fall of a planet is the point opposite it's exaltation.

Generally speaking you can think of them both as 'this planet is in a sucky place that it doesn't like, and will not operate well from'.

You'd need to check everything else to know precisely what it means.

In vedic astrology the 'detriments' aren't used as such, however, a planet may be undignified in those detriment signs by dint of emnity between the planets. i.e. Sun in Aquarius, Jupiter in Virgo etc.
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Unread 01-27-2013, 06:33 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meg96 View Post
I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??
QUOTE:


Detriment and Fall


As in taking the Fortitudes of the Planets, great care ought to be had, so their Debilities must be observed with no less care and prudence;

wherein I advise you to beware of the Effects or Influence of a Planet when he is in Detriment; rather than when he is in Fall. For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery,

whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery.




source: (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)
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Unread 01-28-2013, 03:19 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)
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Unread 03-28-2013, 02:43 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meg96 View Post
I'm sorry I don't have a contribution, but I figured instead of starting another topic about sort of the same thing, maybe I could wedge this in here:
What is the difference between "detriment" and "fall"??
Detriment is uncomfortable and misplaced, resulting into a weakened energy. This does not necessarily mean the signs strength itself is zapped, it just means it is not comfortable expressing and is not free to express fully, creating a negative effect.

Fall is the most difficult, negative and diminished placement. My example of a fallen planet - Think of fall as a Square aspect and Dignity (Ruler) as a Trine aspect. If you know what Square and Trine do then for the most part you will understand that it is in same context here.

Mercury dignifies Gemini, Gemini is communicative, and full of expression. Just like the meaning of Mercury itself, this is why it is ruled here - Mercury is in fall when in Pisces because of the lack of confidence and unrealistic fantasy-based type expression it has.

Moon rules Cancer, Cancer is emotional, responsive and nurturing and Moon nurtures earth. So the moons signature sign is Cancer - Moon is in its fall in Scorpio. Scorpio is the darkest most powerful sign, it is the poker face of the Zodiac. Gravekeeping it's extremely intense emotions, this is not the way the Moon wants to express itself. Scorpio is also secretive, intense and all or nothing towards others. Cancer wants to nurture towards others. Scorpio moon is the most difficult moon placement seeing life though a dark and negative lens.

My example of the relations between these 2 signs and the moon would be Cancer as the spoilt, loved and nurtured child and Scorpio as the neglected black sheep.

But for the signs that are not listed in either dignity, exaltation, detriment or fall are signs in peregrine. This means that according to the horoscope they can be weak or strong. If the Sun is in Pisces then I would say that the sun will perform especially poor because of Pisces vulnerable and weak nature as a sign itself. Pisces is far if not the furthest from being a leader and in my personal opinion it is as if the Sun in Pisces is just off of being in fall or in detriment. Not to mention its mutability which is the other end of the spectrum of Sun ruled Leo of Fixed Quality.

It just made sense to assume this, I look at the relationships between each planet and sign, and what each planet and sign actually do. With this I just adjust to the horoscope and then I start getting flesh out of astrology instead of limited, new age astrology.

The Sun performs poorly in all of the Signs (Pisces especially) except for the Fire Signs. He only has the dignity of Face in 10 degrees of the other signs and will be peregrine throughout the other 20.

I have:
Sun - Pisces (Peregrine)
Moon - Scorpio (Fallen)
Mercury - Pisces (Fallen)
Venus - Aries (Detriment)
Mars - Cancer (Fallen)
North Node - Sagittarius (Fallen)
South Node - Gemini (Fallen)

There is no harmony here, so judging by the difficulty I have I can confidently say that both Detriment and Fallen predominance will create a more difficult nature in their specific fallen areas.

Hopefully that answered your question

Link.

Last edited by dranzer93; 03-28-2013 at 08:34 AM.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 03:16 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.

Dranzer's analysis is pretty spot on. Planets in detriment are disorganized, are said to be fighting with themselves, and tend to take on a corrupted influence which tends to make them negative. Planets in fall tend to show worry and distress, and are said to have a numbing or weakening influence which sort of makes them less able to perform.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)
Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 03:57 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Remember too that prior to the time of Abu Mashar (in the West), the ancients did not have the concept of (essential) "detriment", for them it was only domicile, exaltation and fall; same as has continued in Vedic astrology up to the present time...
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Unread 03-28-2013, 04:38 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog
Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.
Lilly's ideas of exaltation and fall are no different than any other medieval author. The various dignities and debilities, as well as their effects, were fairly standardized by around the turn of the first millennium CE. It's mostly going to depend on what specific tradition you follow, but the medieval tradition is pretty straightforward on this topic.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 04:44 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

True enough-Bonatti, Ibn Ezra, al-Biruni, et al, had the same things to say about this matter (just that I personally can't stand Lilly's writing!! and attitude!!!)
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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:24 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

If you go online and key a few words you will find all the definitions you want. I tend not to stress those terms but take each planet and its aspects on their own merits.
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Unread 03-28-2013, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)
I have always thought this also that "fall" was definately the more debilitated between the two (detriment and fall). Of course this was before I had heard of "Lilly". Does any Traditional Astrologers know the answer for sure?

Thanks!!
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Unread 03-28-2013, 01:42 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Lilly's ideas of exaltation and fall are no different than any other medieval author. The various dignities and debilities, as well as their effects, were fairly standardized by around the turn of the first millennium CE. It's mostly going to depend on what specific tradition you follow, but the medieval tradition is pretty straightforward on this topic.
In that case, I still don't like those ideas, but let's not blame Lilly specifically?
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Unread 03-28-2013, 04:01 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
In that case, I still don't like those ideas, but let's not blame Lilly specifically?
That's the way.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 12:40 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 01:09 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.
Erm... I never said Detriment planets are worse then Fallen planets? I said Fallen planets are the worst... Read again please.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 06:16 PM
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Actually, I was referring to Kaiousei no Senshi 03:16 AM 03-28-2013
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 08:45 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
I don't quite agree that detriment planets are worse than fallen planets.

In general, individual charts need to be studied on an individual basis to determine how it plays out in the person's chart. I don't buy into detriment planets being "weak" but rather, "misguided" or "untrained" energies. After some time, detriment energies are able to resolve some of their shortcomings and can function quite well.

As for fallen planets, I think they're pretty much doomed to being busted because their energy is so deflated to begin with.

My analogy of detriment and fall would be to consider guests at a party. The detriment guest is the one who came to the party not knowing how to act and as a result, over do it and seem to try too hard. After getting familiarized with the atmosphere, the detriment guest learns what to do and what not do so they don't have to try too hard at the wrong moments. The fallen guest is the one who came to the party with half a tank of energy and either fell asleep somewhere during the most exciting/entertaining part of party or they just duck out early and no one seems to care. Either way, the fallen guest cut things short.
That's fine if that's the way you want to conceptualize it. I just see "corrupted" as being much worse than "weakened".
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Unread 04-04-2013, 09:04 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
That's fine if that's the way you want to conceptualize it. I just see "corrupted" as being much worse than "weakened".
But it's completely stated that fall is the weakest and most corrupted... That is why it is labelled all across astrology to be the worst. It is an equivalent to a square aspect. A detriment makes the expression uncomfortable but a fall completely causes difficulty and a negative world in that area. It's not about what YOU think is worse, because it's already a fact that fall is worse
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Unread 04-04-2013, 09:48 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by dranzer93 View Post
But it's completely stated that fall is the weakest and most corrupted... That is why it is labelled all across astrology to be the worst. It is an equivalent to a square aspect. A detriment makes the expression uncomfortable but a fall completely causes difficulty and a negative world in that area. It's not about what YOU think is worse, because it's already a fact that fall is worse
Can I get a source on that?
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Unread 04-04-2013, 09:54 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Actually, I was referring to Kaiousei no Senshi 03:16 AM 03-28-2013
The difference between detriment and fall, to put it plainly, is that detriment is worse for the planet involved.
Oh okay sorry xx
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Unread 04-04-2013, 10:14 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Can I get a source on that?
Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''

I would go and find you a source on it but I am so tired and cant think. I know that in my experience and through all the things I have read and passed by that fall was always the worst, a 70 year old astrologer who has been studying for over 30 years who I know called GreyBeard had written on one of my posts describing it as ruler being the king on his thrown, Exalt being a friend but doesnt rule, Detriment being unfriended and Fall being enemy and not allowed in as it goes against everything the planet wants to do. For example my Moon in Scorpio. Moon does not want to express in such a secretive and dark way, So it's not about it being the complete opposite element its about how the sign is equelly as strong but expresses in a way that goes against the planets nature and rules. Detriment is just not a friend, and it is uncomfortable but it does not go against the planets actual nature. It's just that the signs nature doesn't really work well in a planet that has a different meaning to the signs nature. Where as fall in some ways you could say uses the planet for evil as it is as strong but it is hated.

Last edited by dranzer93; 04-04-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 10:40 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dranzer93
Yes. Just to clarify that ruler is in full harmony, where as fall is in full dissonance. the 2 in the middle are exaltation and detriment. Exaltation being the positive middle and detriment being the negative middle.

thats why the order of them are always said in ''Ruled, Exaltation, Detriment, Fall''
Ah, I see where we are having our disconnect. Typically, the sections go "Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term, and Face" clearly ordering out the dignities from the most dignifying to the least dignifying. In the next section it is ordered "Detriment, Fall, and Peregrine" mirroring the first section's order of greatest point of distress to least point of distress (not counting minor or accidental things of course).

Also, using this ordering idea completely disregards the sign relationship. Why is a planet's sign of detriment its sign of detriment? Because it's the sign opposite to one of the signs it rules. I don't think it takes much of a stretch to infer that if a planet is its "best" when in it's sign of domicile, it is then at its "worst" when it is in the sign opposite from it.
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Unread 04-04-2013, 10:51 PM
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Re: detriment and fall?

From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents
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Unread 04-05-2013, 01:04 AM
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Re: detriment and fall?

Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does exalted Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is further strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline and will power comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I possessed strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like but that's probably because I have Mars opposite Uranus) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control).

As I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy, fat, and boring and into self-indulgence foods and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but because my Mars is detriment I cannot express those traits too? Do I even strive to be that way? On some levels yes, but on a larger scale, NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I'm sure Cap Mars can do that if they wanted to, but they're not really comfortable with a lot of dirty grunt work that Taurus Mars revel in. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame and we don't seem to express the negative traits that we're so unfairly deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered. Peel everything back and inspect what's underneath and you find that status and appearances don't quite work the way it's reputed to be. That's all I'm trying to say.

Last edited by may28gemini; 04-05-2013 at 01:20 AM.
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