Different Ascendants. How is it possible?
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Bunraku
Well-known member
Hi Ann,
Here explains the sidereal Vs tropical zodiac:
Link 1: http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/zodiacworldview.html
Link 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_and_tropical_astrology
Here explains the sidereal Vs tropical zodiac:
Link 1: http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/zodiacworldview.html
Link 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_and_tropical_astrology
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
The SIGNS of the ASTROLOGICAL TROPICAL ZODIAC
are defined in relation to the vernal point
and so
now have no direct relationship to the corresponding zodiacal constellations
having drifted westwards
the Vernal Point is currently visible at Sidereal Pisces
NOT Tropical Aries
owing to the precession of the equinoxes
"There are two zodiacs.
The Sidereal zodiac is a physical reality depicting commonly acknowledged pictures
made up of groups of stars used by astronomers,
Vedic
and
Sidereal astrologers.
The Tropical zodiac is a mathematical construct used by astrologers only.
Most people in the Western Hemisphere
think of their astrological signs based on the Tropical zodiac
which is a math-only based system of division
with the zero point starting at the Vernal Equinox.
When Sun crosses the ecliptic
it’s the first day of Spring in Northern Hemisphere.
New babies born on the following day will be told that they have an Aries Sun sign.
And they will Tropically.
All the Tropical astrologers will mark out the 12 signs
Aries to Pisces, 30 degrees each, from that point in space.
If you could see where the Sun actually was
you would see it in approximately 5 degrees of the constellation Pisces.
Sidereal Astrologers use the physical Zodiac which consists of 12 constellations.
So if you were born on March 20 or 21
the Sun is physically in the Sign Pisces not the constellation Aries.
What does this mean to you?
Well, it might explain why you weren’t like all those other “Aries” born at the end of the month.
But then again, you could have other planets in Aries
You need to see your birth chart to know how many planets are in each constellation.
Look at both and see for yourself which makes more sense to you
to be clear then:
0º Aries as understood by Tropical Astrologers
is incontrovertibly based on the premise
'The moment when the Sun crosses the Equator
whilst moving northbound along the Ecliptic'
recurs each year at the same degree of 0º Aries
HOWEVER
It is patently obvious if
- while using suitable eye protection -
one views the actual local skies from any vantage point on 'the first day of Spring'
In the Northern Hemisphere
AT THE PRECISE MOMENT THE SUN APPARENTLY CROSSES THE EQUATOR WHILST MOVING NORTHBOUND ALONG THE ECLIPTIC
the constellation rising AT THAT MOMENT
is most definitely NOT the constellation of ARIES
but instead
DUE TO PRECESSION
is in fact the constellation known as PISCES
in fact
it is only approximately every twenty six thousand years
that
the Sun crosses the Equator whilst moving northbound along the ecliptic at 0º Aries
so
it is only
every twenty six thousand years
that the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs temporarily are aligned
and BOTH show the sun crossing the Ecliptic at 0º Aries
thereafter
for another twenty six thousand years approximately
with reference to the Spring Equinox
The Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac continue to 'drift apart'
Check out “HISTORY OF THE ZODIAC”
- an in-depth exploration of the origins of the Babylonian Zodiac and its location in the ecliptic -
which reveals that the division of the ecliptic into tropical astrological signs
was originally a derivation of Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.)
QUOTE
"...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months
commencing with the vernal equinox
in which each solar (tropical) month
is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." Dr. Robert Powell http://www.amazon.com/History-Zodiac.../dp/1597311529
TROPICAL ZODIAC is a SEASONAL CALENDAR
the key point being
that the signs of the original sidereal zodiac
each thirty degrees long
coincide closely with the twelve astronomical constellations of the same name http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related
Bunraku and Jupiterasc, thank you very much for your answers.
I can see that there are differences between the two astrologies.
I really don't know should I trust more in Western or in Vedic Astrology?
I always worked with western and I identify myself with this astrology ( I refer at birth chart and predictions ).
Yesterday I received an interpretation of my chart in Vedic Astrology and almost nothing describe me...any element...
And I discovered different interpretations of transits for the next months. Different from the western astrology.
I can say that it was the chart of another person..not mine.
I can see that there are differences between the two astrologies.
I really don't know should I trust more in Western or in Vedic Astrology?
I always worked with western and I identify myself with this astrology ( I refer at birth chart and predictions ).
Yesterday I received an interpretation of my chart in Vedic Astrology and almost nothing describe me...any element...
And I discovered different interpretations of transits for the next months. Different from the western astrology.
I can say that it was the chart of another person..not mine.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
We have a VEDIC board
you may be interested to post your natal chart there
for discussion of the unfamiliar VEDIC analysis
Thank you for your advice.
IleneK
Premium Member
My experience has been that western and vedic charts give the same description of the native even though planets and points may be in different degrees and signs. So I think you can trust them both but unusually one needs to choose one or the other in which to seek proficiency, since each body of thought is so extensive.
Wishing you the best.
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Thanks. I guess that the problem in astrology is that the astrologer has experience.
Until now, I talked with many astrologers. Anyway, I find more answers to my questions in Western astrology. Normally the western predictions were accurate. Not always in the predicted date, but a little later.
In vedic. ..nothing. Any clear thing. No clear prediction. ..absolutely nothing.
Probably the astrologer has not many experience. I don't know. In my country is known being the "best" in vedic astrology.
AppLeo
Well-known member
Pretty much. Like, if you take a Leo Sun in Western astrology, it would be considered a Cancer Sun in Vedic astrology. It doesn't matter, the Sun didn't actually change position in the sky; the name just got changed.
Vedic astrology just has different interpretations from western, but ultimately it's the same thing.
IleneK
Premium Member
I agree with your observation that perhaps the Vedic astrologer that read your chart may not have been adequately experienced? I also applaud AppleLeo's concise post that the postion of the planets are the same, just the labeling or naming of their position in the heavens is different.
In the US there are some very good Vedic astrologers, and certainly in India, as well. I am sure there are very good ones in other countries as well. I am sorry about your unsatisfactory experience.
Bunraku
Well-known member
So I looked at my sidereal chart, using whole signs and Hindu/Lahiri sidereal calculation for the most authenticity, and it’s quite a massive difference. My Venus is now debilitated, and my Sun is now exalted in the 9th house. My Moon stays the same sign though (Scorpio), but now it’s at the beginning degrees which shifts the dignities around. I’m now completely Martian and fiery rather than Venusian and earthly.
So can anyone here clarify how Taurus in tropical can yield the same description as Aries in the sidereal zodiac in Indian astrology ?
There is a difference in what the signs mean (per Lilly):
“..for some Signs in nature are Fiery, Hot and Dry, viz. Aries, Leo, Sagittarius...Others are Dry, Cold, and Earthly, viz. Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn...” 87
“Dome Signs are Masculine, Diurnal, and therefore Hot, as Aries... Leo...Some are Feminine, Nocturnal, therefore Cold, Viz. Taurus...Scorpio...” 88
Or, in the sidereal zodiac, does Taurus changes elements too???
I can’t really see Taurus being a moveable, hot and dry, choleric, diurnal, masculine, firey, etc. etc. sign.
Someone PLEASE clarify.
Edit:
Since this is the trad section:
"For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.”
I thought I might as well apply western trad thought to the “similarities.” But if the similarities are not applicable then please correct me. Ty.
So can anyone here clarify how Taurus in tropical can yield the same description as Aries in the sidereal zodiac in Indian astrology ?
There is a difference in what the signs mean (per Lilly):
“..for some Signs in nature are Fiery, Hot and Dry, viz. Aries, Leo, Sagittarius...Others are Dry, Cold, and Earthly, viz. Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn...” 87
“Dome Signs are Masculine, Diurnal, and therefore Hot, as Aries... Leo...Some are Feminine, Nocturnal, therefore Cold, Viz. Taurus...Scorpio...” 88
Or, in the sidereal zodiac, does Taurus changes elements too???
I can’t really see Taurus being a moveable, hot and dry, choleric, diurnal, masculine, firey, etc. etc. sign.
Someone PLEASE clarify.
Edit:
Since this is the trad section:
"For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.”
I thought I might as well apply western trad thought to the “similarities.” But if the similarities are not applicable then please correct me. Ty.
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IleneK
Premium Member
You can't compare by just reading a little, like you have. You need to have a cohesive vedic reading of your chart by a highly skilled vedic astrologer and then you can begin to draw a conclusion.
Or read a whole, whole lot more about both approaches.
Or both.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Sidereal Astrology has a different methodology
I recommend Sidereal expert Therese Hamilton http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
also another good read
Do Tropical Traits Reflect Underlying Sidereal Signs? http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8258
SOLUNARS - FOR THE STUDY AND GROWTH OF SIDEREAL ASTROLOGY http://www.solunars.com/
CapAquaPis
Well-known member
According to sidereal or vedic astrology, my ascendant is Gemini and I happen to have great communication skills, a typical Geminian or Mercurial trait (the ruler planet of Gemini). My sidereal chart shows Sun still in Aquarius (at 1') while the Moon is in Capricorn, which explains some Capricorn qualities I have.
Bunraku
Well-known member
Sidereal Astrology has a different methodology
I recommend Sidereal expert Therese Hamilton http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
also another good read
Do Tropical Traits Reflect Underlying Sidereal Signs? http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8258
SOLUNARS - FOR THE STUDY AND GROWTH OF SIDEREAL ASTROLOGY http://www.solunars.com/
Oh thanks JA. That was exactly what I was looking for: reasoning, history, etc. they had for the signs, and it seems to have those. Helpful as always
Particularly this one: http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aatriplicities2013.htm
It sort of makes a little more sense now. I’m still having a hard time seeing fire signs as phlegmatic or air signs being melancholic... but the reasonings with their triplicity rulers makes sense.
Since it mentioned in one of the pages "This western foundation is also the basis of the Jyotish zodiac,” I thought there would be a similar base on where we could compare the signs.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
CALCULATING A NATAL CHART BY HAND
EXAMPLE FROM KEN WARD'S ASTROLOGY PAGES
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_d...ns/calcGMT.htm
Astrology: Calculating the Chart - UT or GMT.
QUOTE
'….While few people are actually going to work out astrological charts by hand
that is, using paper, pencil,
it is important to know how to do it
because unless an astrologer
spends a great deal of time doing charts by hand
they will never fully understand astrology.
By doing charts by hand,
one begins to understand
more about the movement of the planets
and how they combine
to affect the lives of people on Earth.
Astrology is a sacred science
and by doing the mundane routine things,
our minds enter a meditative state
wherein we realise things
we might not have been able to know or understand otherwise....'
The tools you require to make a horoscope
(in addition to writing and drawing tools)
are an atlas and an ephemeris
An ephemeris is a book or booklet containing information
about the positions of planets, etc.
The information you require is the date and time and place of birth.
The place of birth is expressed in longitude and latitude.
Universal Time, or Greenwich Mean Time
is required to calculate the positions of the planets
NB
Hand and/or computer calculating
does not always yield exactly to the minute and second the same results
as from astrological software
In fact
not all astrological software yields exactly to the minute-second the same results
as another astrological software
In case of an apocalypse, I am not sure how much you will need astrological calculations. Have you prepared the jars with food?
You can just substract your ayanamsha value from the tropical ASC to get the sidereal ASC, so it is the same.
Alternatively (approximate to a couple degrees because of refraction), if you have the rising times, mark the Sun's degree at sunrise as the ascendant and then add or substract the needed value.
There is also an approximate way to do ''primary directions'' without trigonometry that is not well known, mark the distance between the planet and the angle (quadrant MC for example), then using rising times mark when the releaser reaches the square or opposition of the distance from the quadrant MC after the MC has been corrected ofc.
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