Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Dignities & debilities

Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:20 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi's Avatar
Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Richardson, TX, USA
Posts: 2,609
Send a message via MSN to Kaiousei no Senshi Send a message via Skype™ to Kaiousei no Senshi
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects. I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial. Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work)? Does Scorpio Moon have the monopoly on being intensive and having dark emotions? I've gone through that phase and I'm a Pisces Moon. Does Capricorn Mars have the last word on ambitions and drive? I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT the really all of the story but rather, just the first layer.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 planet in detriment- Taurus Mars. Although in detriment status, my Mars is dignified in the 8th house and it is strengthened by trine Jupiter, trine Saturn, and sextile Moon (all benefics). Because my Saturn is exalted in Libra (that's why my Saturn acts as a benefic and not malefic), but it does major damage control on my Mars and as a result, self-discipline comes naturally for me.

When I was a small child, my parents thought that I have strong drive and I was always a wild ball of energy (very Aries Mars-like) but I didn't know where to place my energies. I knew how to express my energies, I just had to be instructed on where to address it and how much of it was appropriate (proportion control). But I've gotten older, did some growing up, I've learned to spread out my energy to various projects and virtually anyone that comes across me sees me as a hard working, action oriented go-getter. I have Cap Mars friends who don't know what the heck they're doing in life and they're in their 40s and 50s and I'm much younger than them but I know what I'm doing and where I want to go. I cannot accept that just because I have Taurus Mars that I'm lazy and boring and all into food and comforts when in reality, I'm energetic, I'm self-disciplined, I am reliable, and I am able to crush my opponents by miles ahead without feeling any pain. I can be quite ruthless which can even shock Cap Mars who is famously known to be cold, calculating, and very strategic. Does Cap Mars have the stronghold on those traits? I mean, Cap Mars is exalted and I admire their status because they're of the earth element and brilliant (in general) but am I that way? Do I even strive to be that way? NO. My energy actually can overwhelm others if I want it to, and I do that on a more personal scale. I've met other Taurus Mars people who aren't so lazy and tame as we're suppose to be since we're deemed as "corrupted."

I just think that the overall picture needs to be considered.
Certainly you're going to want to use considerations of bonification and maltreatment in any situation, I was hoping that would go without saying, but it is useful to remind people. I was mostly speaking about detriment and fall without regard to other mitigating factors.

If I may, I think the issue here is you're trying to compare aphorisms about the classical dignities with modern, psychological interpretations, and then you doubt them when they don't match up because you've just judged a fish by it's ability to climb a tree.

__________________
Coming events cast their shadows before them.

www.medievalastrologyguide.com
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:22 AM
wca's Avatar
wca wca is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 194
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
I've checked the long list of famous Taurus Mars and there are many more Taurus Mars who have achieved more (money, status, fame, etc.) than Cap Mars. I just think that planetary position is NOT really all or most of the story but rather, just the first layer.
actually all you'll have found by checking the list of famous Taurus Mars individuals is a list of famous Taurus Mars individuals. I know where you were trying to go with this but it's statistically insignificant.

anyhow, I think we're on the wrong track here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Although I can understand why planets in the detriment and esp. fallen positions can be considered "corrupted," I still don't think that's the end of the story. I mean, there's house placements to consider and then there's aspects that could lessen the negative effects.
no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
I think any planet in any placement can get corrupted, just as the possibility for any planet in any placement to be beneficial.


again, not really. this almost indicates that there's not a philosophical principle underpinning traditional methodology. a planet can only be as strong as its placement, its relationship to its dispositor, etc. so while any planet can be in an unfortunate position, it's wrong to say that any planet any where could get turned upside down -- there has to be a detractor (like Venus being disposited by a Moon in Capricorn sq. Saturn).

Quote:
Yes, overall a planet in detriment or fall is of lesser "status" but really, what is the status when it comes seeing how something works (or doesn't work) in reality?
status indicates degree. so even if something "works," if the planets involved had been better placed, that something could have been great.

Last edited by wca; 04-05-2013 at 01:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:29 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

I did not disagree as far as the root concept of why detriment and fallen exist. Taurus Mars will always be detriment because it's the opposite of dignified Scorpio Mars- that's just how it is. Scorpio Moon is fallen because Taurus Moon is exalted. Yes, I get all that.

As for aspects "only" measuring relative ease or lack thereof between the 2 planets- I think that's not true at all. I think aspects not only measure (dis)comfort levels between the planets, but shows the potential energies available no matter what positions. I don't think there's any certainty to say that if you compare exalted Cap Mars in the 10th house will beat Taurus Mars in the 10th. My argument isn't one that the detriment or fallen effects are dissipated, but with beneficial aspects, a good house placement, that helps lessen some of the negative effects.

I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?

Last edited by may28gemini; 04-05-2013 at 01:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:31 AM
wca's Avatar
wca wca is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 194
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I have come to consider Fall a more difficult situation (regarding planetary expression and its quality) than detriment (reverse of Lily's outlook, quoted above)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Yes, while I do enjoy reading Lily, I believe he's off base with his ideas about exaltation and fall.
opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:39 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi's Avatar
Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Richardson, TX, USA
Posts: 2,609
Send a message via MSN to Kaiousei no Senshi Send a message via Skype™ to Kaiousei no Senshi
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wca
no. fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and function of aspects. aspects only measure relative ease (or dis-ease) of expression between two functioning bodies. conjunction = joining. opposition = opposing. trine = free-flowing, for good or ill. square = tension, disconnect, working at cross purposes. sextile = flowing with some minimal degree of effort or discomfort.
AHEM! Bonification/Maltreatment by engagement would like to say hello to you, sir!

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini
I didn't realize that this discussion was solely based upon what's been known and accepted about detriment and fallen positions. I brought up my points because what is structure if it were not in practice to see for itself?
While noble, the problem with this is we are all clearly coming from a myriad of different places in our traditions, techniques, and philosophies. It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.
__________________
Coming events cast their shadows before them.

www.medievalastrologyguide.com
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:42 AM
wca's Avatar
wca wca is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 194
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
AHEM! Bonification/Maltreatment by engagement would like to say hello to you, sir!
ha, fantastic. always excited to learn something new.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 04-05-2013, 01:49 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wca View Post
opinions are fine, but if we're going to veer from authority on the subject we should probably have reasons to support? if for no other reason than to continue the dialogue and learn from each other.

what evidence do you have in your personal (or otherwise) practice to take an opposing stance from Lilly and other medieval authorities? open to your input.
I go with the Indian authorities on many matters regarding astrology. It's my opinion that we should look further than just the medieval western tradition in our research.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:07 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

I don't think disagreements leads to no one learning anything and it's a good thing that there isn't 1 kind of astrology because that means there wouldn't be any differences in opinions and everyone would have to think, do, practice the same. Although it's stable to have 1 kind of astrology and easier to communicate about it, I think that's suffocating and limiting. I like reading what other people say, even if I don't address to everyone's comments but I do learn from others and I'd like to think some enjoy my analyses too.

I'm not an astrologer nor strive to be one, and although I actually have a good foundation on traditional astrology, I take note of traditional astrology as a point of reference but not like it's the be all to end all. Theory is all well and good, but how is that theory when it comes into play? Yes, you're right. I do come from more of a psychological astrology standpoint and I like studying layers. Repeating what has long been "accepted" is so unsatisfying for me. Call it my Mercury trine Pluto. Call it my Scorpio flavored Mars position. Maybe my Scorpio Uranus is the culprit. It doesn't matter, I just think there's more than what's been repeated in texts over and over again.

Astrology has come from a lot of angles and that's why I think it's fun (but probably maddening for a lot of people because they want definite answers). I really do like all the differences that gets presented. I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously accepted. That's not how something is learned or improved upon. I think that's why people should be freely able to express their viewpoints from various astrological standpoints, even if arguments results but at least there's some freedom to express what one thinks. Maybe some don't think anything needs to be improved upon but I do, so what I say, I say with a purpose in mind. I wasn't trying to be noble or lofty, but I thank you for the compliment all the same.

Last edited by may28gemini; 04-05-2013 at 02:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:14 AM
wca's Avatar
wca wca is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 194
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
I dislike it when dominating voices are only taken into consideration and independent voices are pressured to be silenced or pushed back because they don't see nor follow what's often been previously been accepted.
I hope I didn't make you feel that way! it's so easy to be assertive behind a computer screen.

anyway, all viewpoints are welcome, and indeed solicited! I always find they are best received when actual examples are presented of how the long-standing framework somehow falls short.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:23 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

Hahaha I wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular when I wrote that. Despite having a Pisces Moon, I'm NOT that sensitive!

What I was saying is more general. I've seen people on the forum shy away from further explaining their original observations due to some pressure that if they don't hold consensus, they wouldn't be accepted. There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:25 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
It would be more beneficial if we were all coming from the same place to have a discussion on what our practice has shown us and how everyone can improve from those observations. Otherwise, what one tradition says is causing something and what another says is always going to get in the way of anyone learning anything.
I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:27 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
There are some previous members that I liked that got banned because what they expressed is a little too "different." I find all of that to be disappointing and wrong. Probably that's why I always express what I want to. I just think more ought to be brave and assert themselves more often, that's all.
I doubt they were banned due to a lack of concensus holding, it's more likely they were also unorthodox in their manners, and how they hold to forum rules.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:31 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: detriment and fall?

I think original ideas in astrology are fine, as long as they are not presented as coming from tradition when they don't.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:35 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think banning is the appropriate way to treat those on a forum who wish to express their views. That only results in very few people coming around and participating.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 04-05-2013, 02:38 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Well, I've seen some not holding consensus and being unorthodox in their manner of expressing it but I don't think that's just cause for being banned. I like unorthodox people. I like like naysayers. Those are the ones who keeps everyone on their toes and in check. They're mavericks and not held by conventions so they will often bring up points that are often overlooked but maybe, they're blunt and say things that aren't packaged so well. I don't think that's just for banning.
I've never known anyone be thrown out for having an original notion. In their manner of asserting them; sure

A lot of people do get super pissed off when everyone doesn't suddenly take their ideas to heart.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Unread 04-05-2013, 03:25 AM
Kaiousei no Senshi's Avatar
Kaiousei no Senshi Kaiousei no Senshi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Richardson, TX, USA
Posts: 2,609
Send a message via MSN to Kaiousei no Senshi Send a message via Skype™ to Kaiousei no Senshi
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog
I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.
In most fields of study it doesn't, but in astrology it always becomes a carousel of "not in my experience". Then it becomes an argument between the different traditions and how they handled certain things.

Unfortunately, this whole thing was my fault. I try not to get involved with these kinds of things. Apparently I wasn't aware of what I was doing when I started out responding here, getting way too caught up in the whole "which is worse" debate.

Anyway, to summarize for the OP and all those reading:

In the Hellensitic and Vedic traditions, there is no detriment, but there is fall. There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.

In the medieval tradition, detriment and fall both exist as essential debilities with detriment being the worse of the two as it causes a planet's significations to become corrupted whereas fall makes a planet's significations weak. You could argue about which is preferable in any given situation, but it's going to be a personal preference about which you would rather handle. For example, a planet in its detriment ruling the Fourth house could show a broken home, an abusive father, something along those lines, whereas that planet in its fall could show the father is sickly or maybe has a low-status job or is otherwise ineffective at being a father.

The modern tradition tends to be rather back and forth about their dignities and debilities (for example, I've seen some modern authors give Mercury's exaltation as Aquarius whereas others keep it as Virgo, and then the exaltations and falls of the outers seems to be all over the place), so I'm not really sure how or even if they handle the debilities.
__________________
Coming events cast their shadows before them.

www.medievalastrologyguide.com

Last edited by Kaiousei no Senshi; 04-05-2013 at 08:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 04-05-2013, 04:17 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.
As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter)
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 04-05-2013, 07:49 PM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

Can I ask why you consider only the degree area around Libra Sun to be fallen and not the entire sign?

As much as I like Libra Sun people and we get along quite well because we're airy, I still think that Libra Sun in its entire sign to be fallen because they are still very needy and dependent on others.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 04-06-2013, 03:31 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: detriment and fall?

Because, in my experience, Sun indications when in Libra (as the entire sign) have not appeared (to me) to be those characteristic of a planet in its Fall.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 04-08-2013, 07:25 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

Fair enough. I'm somewhat in the same position with it comes to exalted Libra Saturn. I don't think all degrees of Libra in Saturn to be exalted as I've met quite a few who display a busted sense of Saturn which isn't very characteristic of Saturn at his finest.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Unread 04-08-2013, 09:08 AM
princess valhalla's Avatar
princess valhalla princess valhalla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 443
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter)
I agree. Especially the degrees that conjunct Spica and Arcturus!
__________________
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."

"Each player must accept the cards life deals him.
But once they are in hand, he alone must decide
how to play the cards in order to win the game."

~Voltaire

"Everyone and Everything is interconnected in the universe. Stay pure of heart and you will see the signs. Follow the signs, and you will find your destiny."

~Jeff Who Lives at Home
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 04-14-2013, 04:15 PM
Soragirl6 Soragirl6 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 16
Re: detriment and fall?

From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Unread 04-14-2013, 06:14 PM
dranzer93 dranzer93 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 101
Re: detriment and fall?

[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soragirl6 View Post
From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.
Let's not be limited here... It's a bad habit to project the same debility on each and every planet in fall or each and every planet in detriment because it's going to take different shapes and forms depending. The debility should be catered to the planet and sign and their meanings first of all.

You said that Detriment is emotional and mental exhaustion and that Fall is physical exhaustion. I think this is a limited way of astrology as you are labelling Detriment as being emotional and mental and Fall as being physical with no exceptions. No matter what your sources are I still think that depending on the sign and planet it is going to take different shape as their are more emotionally based planets and signs then others and their are more physically based planets and signs then others.

Moon is in detriment in Capricorn. What are the effects of having Moon in Capricorn? a boring concrete world, non-emotional, physically overworking and cold. If anything these traits are physically exhausting debilitations. Yes Cap moons are cold and have a hard time softening up mentally and emotionally but it doesn't emotionally hurt them to soften up either because they arguably have the strongest will power and are invulnerable either way. It's the physicality, the overworking, the over practicality and mentality that saps moist enjoyment from it's Concrete mind. Perhaps the depressed Capricorn Moons are sick of experiencing life as being dull and jaded and are consciously searching for something to help soften their rock solid filters of how they experience life.

The Moon is in fall in Scorpio, what are the effects of having Moon in Scorpio? the world is a dark and emotionally negative place and it experiences emotions with the most tremendous intensity. Scorpio Moon is emotionally nocturnal, Grave keeping it's emotions. They are the poker-face of the Zodiac, only feeling safe enough to mentally and emotionally scatter through dark and lonely nights due to it's deep anxiety towards it's super vulnerability. This means a dark life. Physicality does come into play here but not without it's emotional vulnerability and dark intensity causing it to be on guard and secretive physically to hide it's emotionality. Note how many times the word emotion is used when describing moon in Fall? that is because it is completely emotional based.

Their emotions are so intense and they are so afraid of their weakness being exposed because they get so deeply inflicted so easily that it causes the naturally secretive nature. But because of this fixed and stubborn quality, their deep dark emotions have no outlet and have nowhere to go so it manifests internally causing it to show up physically. This is what causes the dark and mysterious persona. This is why I think a natural self hatred is a part of Scorpio moon, because they give up everything to be the strongest when the truth is they are just running away from the fact they are weak, which is why they live life physically shelling the way they feel. This is not the way the Moon wants to express itself.

So you see there are mental exhaustions in Capricorn moon and their are high physical exhaustions here too, so how can Detriment just be emotional and mental when Lunar Cap shows more physical exhaustion perhaps then any other placement? and how can Detriment only be mental and emotional when fallen Lunar Scorpio shows more emotionality exhaustion then perhaps any other placement?

Don't forget that not everyone with a Capriconic or Scorpionic moon is going to have everything I said to the full extent. Depending on the rest of their chart and their aspects it's going to effect the way it is funnelled. As for me my Moon in Scorpio is Unaspected and everything I mentioned about Scorpio Moon is how my Scorpio moon works in my personality. I have Pisces sun, Pisces Mercury, Pisces Midheaven, Scorpio Moon, Scorpio Pluto, Cancer Mars, and Cancer Rising in the mix too.

Last edited by dranzer93; 04-14-2013 at 06:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dranzer93 For This Useful Post:
IleneK (04-14-2013)
  #49  
Unread 04-15-2013, 12:17 AM
may28gemini
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soragirl6 View Post
From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. :P That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.
To say that fallen planets are similar to square and detrimental planets are like oppositions is overly simplified and not accurate. Even squares and oppositions take on different expressions depending on the planets involved and even further, what signs those planets occupy. For example: Gemini Jupiter (detriment) square Pisces Mercury (detriment) will be give a different effect than Sagittarius Jupiter (domicile) opposite Gemini Mercury (domicile). The first example is bound to be both physically and mentally exhausted (busted) whereas for the 2nd example, there would probably little to no debilitated effects despite the opposition between the planets.

I have a major problem with you saying that since the fallen planets are in poor position, so it's "not their fault." First off, no one choose to be born when they were born. The natal chart you have is the one that stays with you in this lifetime. Automatically speaking, it's not anyone's "fault" that they're born to who/what/when/where. You're just born and that's that. What you choose to do with what you have is up to you. Some position may create difficult energies but there's no guarantee that Sagittarius or Pisces Jupiter people are going to be luckier than those with Gemini and Virgo Jupiter. Just as there's no guarantee that Capricorn Mars people will be millionaire as opposed to those with Cancer, Taurus, or Libra Mars. It all depends on how the individual uses what they have.

Second, detrimental planets are not the only planets exclusive to causing "damage" as any planets are capable of causing "damage." It is really hard to pinpoint one or 2 exact planet/aspect that's responsible for causing what.

Third, there are very few charts that exist without a debilitated planet. I've only seen 1 chart that doesn't have any debility at all- she's one of my friends but that doesn't mean she escaped roughness nor does it mean she's free of causing any damage in her lifetime.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Unread 04-15-2013, 12:50 AM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 383
Re: detriment and fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepblue View Post
From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents
I agree, in real life I have never seen the horrible results that text books mention.

For example, so many successful politicians in my country have Jupiter in Capricorn- they just seem to have a magic touch in this area; Mars in Cancer is very family oriented and very loyal; Mercury in Pisces is often highly successful in communicative areas ... and so on.

After seeing hardly any correlation between these ways of mapping and real life during my many years of practice, I thought perhaps it was because I was a Southern Hemisphere astrologer and the seasons are reversed e.g. Capricorn is the hottest month of the year, so I thought that maybe this was the reason.

However, I have lots of clients born in the Northern Hemisphere and the same thing applies to them.

In the end I decided to mainly discard these ways of mapping astrology and just look at how a planet would work at its best and worst in a sign and this has worked out very well for me and my clients.

Alice
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
detriment, fall

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.