Delineating Natal Chart

Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Marvin Gay - Abu Ali's Considerations

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Moon in 3rd:
"Indicates professional duties, joys through wealthy people (being 5th from 11th?!), kings, noblemen and foreigners, as through travels."

Mars in 6th:
"Is indicator of many hot and dry illnesses and bad family" (remember he was shot by his father).

Venus in 8th:
"Represents opposition from the mother".

Jupiter in 9th:
"Joy and happiness on the long journeys. Strong Faith".


Sun in 10th:
"Is Indicator of great fame, honors, authority at the kings".


Mercury in 10th:
"Indicates great art in letters, numbers and other arts and skills"

Saturn in 10th in Day Geniture:
"Signifies wealth and success in great dealings. Happier status in the older age than in younger".
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Marvin Gay - Delineation of Natal Chart

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Ruler of 1st in 3rd:
"The Primary Motivation of this person is to seek Emotional Security through journeys, travels, communication. The exaltation ruler is in 9th reinforcing travels but also religion and philosophy. Moon's dispositor is in 10th - through career."

Ruler of 2nd in 10th: money comes through career.

Ruler of 3rd in 10th: person travels a lot because of the career.

Ruler of 4th in 8th: "Father (and family, land) are related to the native's death".

Ruler of 5th in 6th: Native's children are sick, or slaves.

Ruler of 6th in 9th: native applies skills during travel and journeys. Native's travel because of his Service.

Ruler of 7th in 10th: native's partner is related to his career.

Ruler of 8th in 10th: death of the native will be public.
Native's status and fame will be of short life.

Ruler of 9th in 9th: Native enjoys travels and philosophy.

Ruler of 10th in 6th: The career is his service. He applies his skills in the career. His career is 'sick'?!

Ruler of 11 in 8: Friends (and friendships?!) have short life.

Ruler of 12th in 10th: he has many secret enemies in his career. Kings and noblemen are his enemies.

This is a very brief delineation.
We still didn't said much about the chart.
One of the first things we first see is strong angular Sun.
Well, Sun by nature is determined to Glory, Fame, Success and etc. By being in its exaltation all the things signified are amplified. But this Sun has problems too.
It receives Square by a very nasty Mars. This Mars is in good zodiacal state, out of sect malefic and in bad house (6th).
Mercury, ruler of 12th in conjunction to the Sun is also impeding the Sun (even though the Sun combust him).
The thing that Mars receives the Sun is not helping a lot, it helps but not to nulified the badness of the square.
It is said that Sun-Mars square is one of the ugliest, the native is either prone to commit violence or to receive it.

Another thing with that Sun is that it is representative of the Father (in a day chart). It is strong and angular - strong father.

I will continue in the following post.
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Marvin Gaye - First Professional Contract

Work : Contracts, agreements 1961 (Signed with Motown)

Firdaria:
Mercury/Saturn period.

Saturn rules the 7th - business partnerships. Saturn is in 10th: business partnerships related to his career and status.
Mercury rules 12th and 3rd and is in 10th.
Mercury being combust and retrograde, and because rules nasty house, I dount that in the 13 years period of rulership will bring something without trouble.
There are testimonies that in this year Marvin had conflicts with the owners of the Motown due to the singing or non-singing of ballads.

This contract happened in March 1961. This is one month before his birthday.
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Lets look again at the chart and now I will represent you a shortcut for finding the profections for the years without the need for casting a new chart, i.e. profected chart.
In 1961 March, Marvin Gaye is still 21 years old, in April he will be 22. The 1960 year from profections is still on.
We know that on 24 the Profections are on the same natal positions.
We will now count 3 houses back of the natal positions in order to find where the profections are.
First, lets find the profected Ascendant. 24 is Cancer (1st house), 23 is Gemini (12th house), 22 is Taurus (11th house), 21 is Aries (10th house).
So, 10th house (Magisterum/Profession) is on the Ascendant, this year.
That would bring the natal MC to the profected DC - partnership is again accentuated.

Lord of the Year is Mars being in 6th (skills, service), ruler of 10th and 5th (entertainment) and having honor in 7th (business partnership).

Lets not forget that Saturn is sub-ruler of the Firdaria (Saturn rules natal DC).
 
FarEastUranus

FarEastUranus

Well-known member
Dear Omnisphericus,

I have tried to apply your delineation techniques to my 10th house and 5th house, as I am a professional visual artist. I also have a diverse range of creative interests. However, I became completely lost after determining the planets and the rulerships.

What I would be interested in knowing are my primary motivations in terms of my life path and how they play out in my life. Also why I chose this path, or why it chose me? Thanks for any any clarifications!

Sincerely, FarEastUranus
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
FarEastUranus said:
Dear Omnisphericus,

I have tried to apply your delineation techniques to my 10th house and 5th house, as I am a professional visual artist. I also have a diverse range of creative interests. However, I became completely lost after determining the planets and the rulerships.

What I would be interested in knowing are my primary motivations in terms of my life path and how they play out in my life. Also why I chose this path, or why it chose me? Thanks for any any clarifications!

Sincerely, FarEastUranus
Click to expand...
FarEastUranus, it's been some time since Omnisphericus posted all this excellent and valuable instructional material for us as a guide and I notice he has not posted on this thread for some time -

HOWEVER, I found that Omnisphericus left the following information specifically as guidance to help those who wish to gain insight as to their Primary Motivation:smile:
Omnisphericus said:
4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.

The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".
The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.
Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.

Cardinal signs are most active. Cardinal water and earth (Cancer and Capricorn) are working great amount of actions but in circumstances and environment structured already by someone else.
Libra and Aries (Cardinal masculine) are working great in any kind of circumstances.

Fixed signs are centripetal, they need center. They are very successful in Acquisations.
Taurus hoards money.
Leo hoards glory and honor.
Scorpio hoards the hidden things, hidden motivations of other people, seek energy and vitality.
Aquarius hoards Knowledge.

Mutable signs vacillate between the two: cardinal and fixed.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

This is great quote by Zoller:

Lets assume that a person has Cancer on the Ascendant,
The primary motivation of this person is the Need for Emotional Security.
The ruler/s of the Ascendant and their zodiacal and local state will determine How would this be achieved.

Lets assume Moon on IC in Libra Peregrine.
Jupiter in 6th (but 7th sign!) in Capricorn.
Venus in Sag in 6th - Peregrine.
Mars in Scorpio in 4th (but 5th sign!)
Saturn (term ruler) is in 5th Scorpio Peregrine.

We can see that Moon is strong by accident (being on angle), so we can judge first from there.
The need for Emotional Security this person would seek in the home, in the place of the father. The father would be the means through which this person would try to achieve the Emotional Security.
Jupiter - the exalted ruler is weak by being cadent, Venus too. They can't produce much in giving the emotional security this person seeks.
Jupiter by universal means suggest that the native would seek wisdom, religion (and the person actually did!) but by being cadent and in fall, it can't productively give what it promise.
Mars is in 4/5th and is strong by zodiacal state, but is out of sect malefic.
It would try to win competitions, but also with Saturn in 5th will give great deal of creativity. Mars rules the 10th - creativity and looking for career, would also give some amount of emotional security for this person. But by being square with Sun in 7th it means that it will have opposition from authorities and other people in general.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.
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J

Jetman

Active member
Hey dude!Your post encourages most of self-learn-astrology student who like me to go further and it has taught me a lot! So,may I translate your post in Chinese to repost in my Chinese blog?I think most of Chinese amateur who interesting in traditional astrology would be thirsted for this precious knowledge.:happy:
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
Re: Bonatti's use of the 3 Triplicity rulers of each house

What a great thread Omnisphericus.

This is what this forum should be about.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Jetman said:
Hey dude!Your post encourages most of self-learn-astrology student who like me to go further and it has taught me a lot! So,may I translate your post in Chinese to repost in my Chinese blog?I think most of Chinese amateur who interesting in traditional astrology would be thirsted for this precious knowledge.:happy:
Click to expand...

I'm certain Omnisphericus would be happy to receive some publicity in China by you linking to this thread - he is basically passing on traditional astrological concepts as taught by world renowned expert Robert Zoller http://www.new-library.com/ :smile:
 
A

Arena

Well-known member
Thank you for this thread.

May I ask why Alcabidius house system is being used?
Is this a traditional house system like the whole sign houses are?
I'm having a problem with having too many different house systems, it will change so much in interpretation. :unsure:

If the thread author is not around here anymore - is there anyone who can clarify this for me?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Arena said:
Thank you for this thread.

May I ask why Alcabitius house system is being used?
Is this a traditional house system like the whole sign houses are?
I'm having a problem with having too many different house systems, it will change so much in interpretation. :unsure:

If the thread author is not around here anymore - is there anyone who can clarify this for me?
Click to expand...
Omnisphericus completed Robert Zoller's medieval astrology course
so his guidance pm traditional matters is much appreciated :smile:
however Omnisphericus has not posted for some time.

Robert Zoller is considered one of the most experienced living experts on medieval astrology http://www.skyscript.co.uk/zoller.html

'....Robert Zoller is the leading expert in the 700 year old techniques commonly called Medieval Astrology, and is renowned for the accuracy of his predictions and the high standard of his teaching. This site features articles, courses, downloadable ebooks and translations from Bonatti, Ganivet, Alkindi, Hermes and others...' http://www.new-library.com/

'.....Alcabitius house system uses vertical circles and bears the name of the 12th-century Arabian astrologer, Alchabitus, but it is unclear whether Placidus predates the Alcabitius system or vice versa. BUT it IS clear that those whose names have become celebrated as champions of techniques are not always reliable indicators of their first invention - for example in THE ANTHOLOGY Vettius Valens mentions the system now known as Porphyry where each quadrant of the ecliptic is divided into three equal parts between the four angles. This is the oldest system of quadrant style house division. Although it is attributed to Porphyry of Tyros, this system was first described by the 2nd-century astrologer Vettius Valens, in the 3rd book of his astrological compendium known as The Anthology....'


'...There is much confusion regarding how the houses were used in ancient times and when quadrant systems such as Porphyry and Placidus were introduced.

Passages which were once thought to clearly demonstrate the equal-house method in practice are now taken to be more evident of the use of Porphyry or the whole-sign system

this creates some doubt about whether the equal-house system has any theoretical basis in classical astrology at all
except as a compromise by astrologers who were attempting to align the houses with the angles
and either deliberately or ignorantly failed to observe any discrepancies....' http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
 
A

Arena

Well-known member
Ok thank you for clarifying this JupiterAsc... so does Zoller use the Porphyris which is the same as Alcabidius house system?

Using those systems changes charts in polar latitudes a lot and is a lot different from using the whole sign house system (which I thought was the most "traditional" to use).
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
Alcabitius is one of over 2 dozen quadrant house systems. It was formerly (c.12th-16th centuries) the system most used by western astrologers, no longer in general use.

It shoudn't cause any problems. You can read a chart "as is" (as presented to you) or you can easily convert it to the house system of your choice.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Arena said:
Ok thank you for clarifying this JupiterAsc... so does Zoller use the Porphyris which is the same as Alcabidius house system?

Using those systems changes charts in polar latitudes a lot and is a lot different from using the whole sign house system (which I thought was the most "traditional" to use).
Click to expand...
'….There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity :smile:

including
Whole signs(oldest)
Equal House(1st century BC)
Porphyry(3rd century AD)
Alcabitus(6th century)
Campanus(13th century)
Regiomantus(14th century)
Placidus(17th century)
Koch(20th century).
Others include: Meridian(Midheaven), Topocentric, Morinus, Horizontal, Geodetic, Zodiacal, Svarogish, Krusinski, and so on.

In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains represent general areas of life activity and are grounding areas/arenas of expression for planets.
There are generally twelve houses, although in extreme northern or southern lattitudes there can be ten, depending on the house system used.....'


CHRIS BRENNAN ON WHOLE SIGN HOUSE SYSTEM http://classicalastrology.tribe.net/thread/4f214879-77d3-41e2-8365-50f5f753761d


'….Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable/meant the same thing. A planet in Aries was also a planet in the house of Aries, so in effect. there were no real houses as we know them today. Artificial divisions we now know as houses were attempts by early Greeks/Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope, which during 7th'8th centuries AD were construed/confused as means of dividing the birth chart. Ascendant and Midheaven degrees and their opposites, were definite power points/areas of intense focus, but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant. In fact, there is no real basis for astrological houses at all...'


'….Houses' derive from misunderstanding Ascendant and Midheaven factors in astrology - Ascendant representing Earth/terrestial sphere, Midheaven representing Sky/Heaven/ celestial sphere. If any house system should be used at all, it should be Whole Sign, where Ascendant sign becomes whole first house and the others follow. Ascendant point can then fall anywhere in first house and midheaven point anywhere in upper half of chart.

Whole Signs was used by ancient Greeks - Hindus still use it today. It's the oldest simplest house system in existence, and immediately eliminates the awful mess astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so....'
 
A

Arena

Well-known member
Thank you both,
Yes I did know that there are many house systems - but was wondering why he uses this in particular in this thread and if that is usual practice in traditional astrology.

I think I've read this text in your quotes before some days ago when I was trying to find out about the whole sign houses and was reading a bit into traditional astrology. In my polar latitude whole house system makes more sense... but what I've been trying to get at is that with 20 different house systems you will not get your predictions right with all of them because they will give different results if read by effects of the houses.

Whole sign house system is starting to make more and more sense to me although I chose it rather because it just "felt right".
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
if the chart was given by a traditional astrologer, Alcabitius makes sense. It was the house system of those times.

Dr. Farr used to use Placidus, then discovered and converted to Whole Sign. Rob Hand, world-famous astrologer, used lots of systems over his career. I'm pretty sure he is in the Whole Sign camp now. I use Placidus, probably won't change (who knows?), but if I were to change it would be to Whole Sign.

Pick your system. Stick with it. But test it and test again. Once solid in your chosen system, fully confident in its results and your own skills, you can explore other systems to gauge their potentials.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Arena said:
Thank you both,
Yes I did know that there are many house systems - but was wondering why he uses this in particular in this thread and if that is usual practice in traditional astrology.

I think I've read this text in your quotes before some days ago when I was trying to find out about the whole sign houses and was reading a bit into traditional astrology. In my polar latitude whole house system makes more sense... but what I've been trying to get at is that with 20 different house systems you will not get your predictions right with all of them because they will give different results if read by effects of the houses.

Whole sign house system is starting to make more and more sense to me although I chose it rather because it just "felt right".
Click to expand...
dr. farr has explained
how - over the centuries - a change in the meaning of the word 'cusp' led to confusion :smile:
dr. farr said:
Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),
but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":
it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword
-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,
and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";
now, when quadrant systems were developed,
this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning",
which later came to mean its "border",
ie, the "border" between one house and the other.
And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications
(Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this:

in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all,
and never were so regarded!
In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning,
not as a "border"
but rather as A POINT
-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house,
was the sensitive point of that house,
viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses
-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-
is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps"
(sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point")
that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc,
and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses
(always 0 degree of any sign)
for anything,
but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished
(both in the West and in Vedic astrology)
during the same period of time
-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-
this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices,
rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rhetorius/alcabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement,
"so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something)
For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
-it worked better (FOR ME)
I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above,
does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched;
but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it,
except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
Click to expand...
 
Omnisphericus

Omnisphericus

Well-known member
Jetman said:
Hey dude!Your post encourages most of self-learn-astrology student who like me to go further and it has taught me a lot! So,may I translate your post in Chinese to repost in my Chinese blog?I think most of Chinese amateur who interesting in traditional astrology would be thirsted for this precious knowledge.:happy:
Click to expand...

Go ahead, translate :)
 
quiet659

quiet659

Active member
Omnisphericus said:
Here I want to open a discussion (alongside with practical examination) for delineating natal charts. I think this is the most important thing in Astrology delineation sessions because the predictions only give that which is promised in the natal chart.
I will use Alcabitius house system but will add to the delineation sporadically whole signs.
I intent to gave different examples of different themes or subject in different people's charts.
For example, we will use examination of 11th house for delineating native's friends or social life. 7th house for native's marriage and partnership. 9th house for native's religion, faith, journeys and etc..

Lets start with example.

9rpnk4.png


This is a chart of a woman who is about 39 of age.
Lets call her Woman 39.
Her love life is awful. She is almolst 40 and still single. She had some relationships in the past but nothing worked out and as she said to me: "I've accepted the fact that I will maybe be single for the whole of my life".

Lets examine her 7th house.
It falls in Leo.
First we look to find a planets there, because the dominion by placement is much more immediate and powerful then dominion by rulership.
There are no planets in the 7th house.
Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Sun.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3).
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: Sun
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn
Term: Jupiter
Decan: Saturn
Fifth, according to Abu Ali we need to consider the Arabic Parts related to the matters of the house we delineate. In this case that would be Part of Marriage. I use the Part of Marriage according to Paulus: ASC + SA - VE for Women, reversed for Man.
Her Part of Marriage falls again in 7th in Leo15, again in the terms and decan of Saturn/Jupiter.

"All the good or bad for the house emanates from its ruler", this is one of the rules for delineating.

In this case, great ruler of the 7th house is the Sun. It is in 9th with the Moon. (I think that I read in Cardanus, but I'm not sure if it was Cardanus, that the person with Moon combust would probably not be married).

We need to mention here the 4 most common afflictions cited by Bonatti (he actually gives 10, but 4 of them according to Zoller are most in use):
1. Retrogradation
2. Combustion
3. Cadent
4. Conjuntion, Square or Opposition by Malefic

So, having this in mind lets examine all the rulers of the 7th.
Sun is in 9th (cadent) making opposition to Mars in 3rd Retrograde. (Two rules of affliction are present: cadent and opposition with malefic).
Jupiter (2nd Triplicity ruler) is in tide square to the same Mars.
Saturn is cadent in 6th, Retrograde and in conjunction to the Cauda Draconis (decreasing all which conjunct).

It seems out that that Mars retrogarde, in detriment, and cadent in 3rd is the source of many troubles in her life.
Click to expand...
Hello. I was wondering what software did you use for this natal chart? I'm really intrested in Traditional astrology and I think the software you have will better help me to better understand it. Is it free?
 
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