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  #51  
Unread 11-10-2015, 10:43 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Astrology today has very little in common with science.

Science relies on the scientific method: hypothesis-testing, experimentation, data collection and analysis......and astrology has yet to demonstrate its validity under scientific research conditions.
So.....we're back to the question is astrology a religion, we all believe in it?

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  #52  
Unread 11-10-2015, 11:06 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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So.....we're back to the question is astrology a religion, we all believe in it?
Do you worship the stars through astrology?

I again point out that there is a difference between studying, even working with, and worshipping.
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  #53  
Unread 11-10-2015, 01:26 PM
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Scientists/priests using the scientific method/ritual in their laboratories/ temples to reveal the Laws of the Space-Time Continuum/God and creating amazing results/miracles. Scientists are zealots, spreading the gospel of their BELIEF that the material world is the only ONE true world, scoffing at those with a different belief paradigm/infidels, ridiculing other scientists who propose unorthodox theories/heretics, and their Holy Grail is a United Field Theory. Heard a story about an Aboriginal shaman in Australia who was told that some scientists using the Scientific Method had determined that his Dream Time wasn't real; to which he replied that, while in Dream Time, he had determined that Science wasn't real. All a matter of opinion.
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  #54  
Unread 11-10-2015, 02:28 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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So.....we're back to the question is astrology a religion, we all believe in it?
Astrology doesn't exactly have a complete ontology. It doesn't really answer general existential questions. That's why it's not really a religion.
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  #55  
Unread 11-10-2015, 05:39 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Scientists/priests using the scientific method/ritual in their laboratories/ temples to reveal the Laws of the Space-Time Continuum/God and creating amazing results/miracles. Scientists are zealots, spreading the gospel of their BELIEF that the material world is the only ONE true world, scoffing at those with a different belief paradigm/infidels, ridiculing other scientists who propose unorthodox theories/heretics, and their Holy Grail is a United Field Theory. Heard a story about an Aboriginal shaman in Australia who was told that some scientists using the Scientific Method had determined that his Dream Time wasn't real; to which he replied that, while in Dream Time, he had determined that Science wasn't real. All a matter of opinion.
This isn't true, because any claim done by science can be easily verified by empirical evidence supporting it, and any individual can potentially refute those results based on the same parameters.

Everything science does can be proven.
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  #56  
Unread 11-10-2015, 06:30 PM
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Verifying the scientific method using the scientific method is circular reasoning. No one doubts the miracles that can be achieved using it, but that doesn't make it the only way to define Reality. I find it beautiful myself, and it's a wonderful world view--just not the only valid one.

Last edited by david starling; 11-10-2015 at 06:50 PM.
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  #57  
Unread 11-10-2015, 09:01 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Verifying the scientific method using the scientific method is circular reasoning.

No one doubts the miracles that can be achieved using it, but that doesn't make it the only way to define Reality.
I find it beautiful myself, and it's a wonderful world view--just not the only valid one.

Nevertheless verifying the scientific method using the scientific method is the scientific method
FEYNMAN ON THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPa...ED172E7E017720
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  #58  
Unread 11-10-2015, 11:43 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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So.....we're back to the question is astrology a religion, we all believe in it?
I personally don't consider it religion.
From what I read temples built in ancient times (Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon etc) for gods/goddesses. Each temple had high priest/priestess and worshippers (from common people to emperors/kings) come to worship and sometimes a ritual preformed to mix DNA of selected men/women with the gods/goddesses. Julius Caesar was one of the royals born this way, and that Caesarean (C section) surgery had to be done because it wasn't like normal child delivery. If people were just studying, they wouldn't have had a specific day for god/goddess feast, specific animals sacrifice, let alone mixing genes with these gods/goddesses, beings from other planets/stars.
I also never 'call' upon any planet/star/asteroid (or the beings associated with these planets/stars). I was told I can 'call' them but I never do.
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  #59  
Unread 11-11-2015, 12:04 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

They were mixing the DNA of people with the DNA of planets??? I'm confused.

There are gods and goddesses out there who bear the names of planets, but in the ancient astrological writings you will find very, very little mythology. Planets and stars weren't considered gods by astrologers.

Most religions have feast days, a lot of them astrologically timed, and some religions practise sacrifice, but that doesn't make them star-worshippers.

Did I miss something here? Cos I feel like I must have.
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  #60  
Unread 11-11-2015, 12:21 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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They were mixing the DNA of people with the DNA of planets??? I'm confused.

There are gods and goddesses out there who bear the names of planets, but in the ancient astrological writings you will find very, very little mythology. Planets and stars weren't considered gods by astrologers.

Most religions have feast days, a lot of them astrologically timed, and some religions practise sacrifice, but that doesn't make them star-worshippers.

Did I miss something here? Cos I feel like I must have.
no, they mixed human DNA with the gods/goddeses
such as gods of the Anunnaki are actually beings from Nibiru

I don't have the books anymore, but it's Sitchin ( ancient Sumer ) and Barbara Hand Clow ( Julius Caesar and more, she compiled from many sources ). There are other authors I just can't remember all of their names.
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  #61  
Unread 11-11-2015, 12:28 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Interesting links between Astrology and Religion also include

Sirius, brightest star next to the sun = Star of Bethlehem.
The stars of Orion the hunter = the Son of Man.
Orions three stars that form its narrow waistline = Wise Men from the East
because they align with Sirius, the star of Bethlehem on December 25.
Virgo = Virgin Mary
and
Bootes = Joseph.
John the Baptist = Aquarius the Water Bearer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a36_CwzA0bk
didn't know Joseph = Bootes
also Archangel Michael = Aldebaran
Archangel Raphael = Formalhaut
Thoth = Mercury
Isn't Ra the Sun god?
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  #62  
Unread 11-11-2015, 12:58 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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I don't have the books anymore, but it's Sitchin ( ancient Sumer )
THE LOST TABLETS OF ENKI Zecharia Sitchin online https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6d3...l3QZQBT-rP2HR8
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  #63  
Unread 11-11-2015, 01:55 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Excellent answer. Establishment science has finalized the divorce of astronomy from astrology, and scientific method has been used to "prove" that astrology "doesn't work". My impression is that the scientific community got the results it wanted from those tests, and the astrologers involved weren't careful enough. Aside from the possibility the tests were rigged, there's another factor to consider: Social and traditionalistic pressure cause a majority of people to go against their own chart; and it takes either a staunch Individualist or a supportive situation for a test subject to match what an astrologer would say about chosen profession, for example. Anyhow, scientists and astrologers have agreed to disagree, and that's that.
I had missed that connection between astrology and the practice of medicine. In the 16th Century, astrologers (men) could dispense medical advice while the real healers, (mostly women herbalists, like Kepler's mother) were targets of religious persecution.
David, I think it's a stretch to argue that " 'scientific method has been used to "prove" that astrology "doesn't work"." I have access to a university library data base that includes many research journal articles, and I have done several astrology searches. There have been controlled studies of astrology's truth claims, but more would need to be done, especially since the researchers really didn't understand astrology, so far as I can see. See also http://www.astrology-and-science.com/hpage.htm , the research of the late German professor Suitbert Ertel, and of Geoffrey Dean.

My impression of the academic studies I read is not that they were "rigged," for which you have no evidence, but rather, that they were poorly designed by people who didn't understand much astrology. There are not a lot of these studies, incidentally. An advantage of academic articles, unlike astrologers summarizing their private client files, is that the authors need to describe their methodologies in some detail, so you can see how they did their research.

David, I strongly encourage you to read more history of astrology. Try Jim Tester's history, or Nicholas Campion's two-volume set on the history of astrology. Campion is both a highly qualified British astrologer and a cracker-jack scholar. But he's a historian/cultural studies professor, not a scientist. If you know any medical astrology, you can see why in the past, it was an adjunct to medicine.

But please don't just make up this stuff about science or the history of astrology. There is evidence out there. There is a way that the past actually happened.
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  #64  
Unread 11-11-2015, 07:35 AM
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Repeated failures by astrologers to meet the requirements of the Scientific Method in regard to the challenges of those flawed tests have undoubtedly convinced most scientists that Astrology has been successfully debunked. I don't think I said anything out of line with the history of Astrology, unless you're certain that astrologers themselves didn't dispense medical advice, but only consulted with physicians. You didn't comment on my theory that a blind reading won't work on any charts other than those of individualists who actually follow the impulses astrology is tracking and describing. I said there was "a possibility" the tests were rigged, not that they actually were; it may have been subtle and even unconscious given the deep seated prejudice against astrology. When you approach it with an open mind, it's so obvious that astrology works. So, the Scientific Method has failed the test, not Astrology. Back to the drawing board for the test designs! When aerodynamic science was in its infancy and couldn't explain why bees could fly--they had to expand the science to fit the facts. People, scientists included, can find ways to avoid seeing what they don't want to see; it's not intentional, and it happens to the best of us. Understanding how and why astrology works should be the goal, not pretending as though it has to prove its own existence as a real phenomenon. Understanding how bees fly led to the development of the helicopter. No telling what understanding how astrology works would advance Science itself.

Last edited by david starling; 11-11-2015 at 09:04 AM.
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  #65  
Unread 11-11-2015, 12:46 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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..... Understanding how bees fly led to the development of the helicopter. No telling what understanding how astrology works would advance Science itself.
Geraldine Davis, a horary astrologer with the First Temple and College of Astrology described astrology as the 'divine science'.

Quote: " Astrology or cosmic law is not in the least concerned with people who do not believe it....the work of the Creator must have been founded on a divine plan...as our history is cyclic and can be equally traced in the development of religion."
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  #66  
Unread 11-11-2015, 01:01 PM
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A Temple of Astrology? I'll have to check that out! Just did--one of them actually worships the Sun in an astrological sort of way.

Last edited by david starling; 11-11-2015 at 02:17 PM.
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  #67  
Unread 11-11-2015, 03:50 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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A Temple of Astrology? I'll have to check that out!

Just did

--one of them actually worships the Sun in an astrological sort of way.
Siriusly

Pope being enthroned under the authority of the Zodiac




The sign of Leo is directly above the Pope’s head.
Leo rules and/or is associated with:
Fame/France/Italy/Light/Love Kings and the throne.






The Vatican council explains precession to the Pope





San Miniato al Monte (Florence) - Zodiac floor.
See Fred Getting's book on astrological symbolism of church
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  #68  
Unread 11-11-2015, 05:45 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Any number of ancient synagogues have zodiac patterns on the floors and sometimes windows. Makes sense as the bible is full of astrology.




But even in the old stuff, the stars are there to direct you to God - not to see the stars as God. The stars just tell the (our?) story.

Plus if you look at a lot of the old writings, Platonic form comes into it a lot. The stars aren't actually the stars - they're the imperfect physical representation of the form. The whole generation and corruption business, and the closer things get to the sublunary sphere (us, the earth), the more distorted the representations become.

Which doesn't mean nobody ever worshipped stars and planets. But that doesn't make astrology a religion. It has indeed been described as the divine science, but that's a ways from astrology as religion.
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  #69  
Unread 11-11-2015, 09:50 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Repeated failures by astrologers to meet the requirements of the Scientific Method in regard to the challenges of those flawed tests have undoubtedly convinced most scientists that Astrology has been successfully debunked. I don't think I said anything out of line with the history of Astrology, unless you're certain that astrologers themselves didn't dispense medical advice, but only consulted with physicians.
I think it's fair enough to say that most scientists think astrology is without foundation. And frankly, the pop-schlock astrologers and the astrologers who are ignorant about science do not help astrology's cause.

Medicine became an academic subject in the Middle Ages, vs. the domain of local herbalists or convents: the date depends upon what country you consider. It was based upon rediscovered classical texts, which relied on the four humours (I. e., astrological elements and temperament.) In the European Middle Ages, astrology was taught separately as part of the "quadrivium" curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrivium . Of course today, we often see the word "astronomy" used, but it would be more accurate to call it astrology. A knowledge of astrology was seen as vital to accurate diagnoses. http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/medicine/astrology/

I wouldn't be too hard on the scientists, David. Astrology clearly is not a science as science is practiced by physicists, biochemists, microbiologists, meteorologists, &c. 99.9% of scientists would agree that respected disciplines that are not science nevertheless are valuable: history, literature, economics, the fine and performing arts, &c.

As my second link indicated, historians of science (who may come from science, linguistic, or history educations) increasingly explore astrology/astronomy of the past as legitimate science-- for the historical period they study. One of my favourites was a professor of mathematics at Brown University, Otto Neugebauer, who analysed all of the extant horoscopes of the classical period to see if they corresponded to actual planetary positions. They did, and he was able to date them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_E._Neugebauer

Quote:
You didn't comment on my theory that a blind reading won't work on any charts other than those of individualists who actually follow the impulses astrology is tracking and describing.

Sorry, David, missed that.

Quote:
I said there was "a possibility" the tests were rigged, not that they actually were; it may have been subtle and even unconscious given the deep seated prejudice against astrology.
"Rigged tests" would be questioned. Keep in mind that the researchers are more likely to come from the social and behavioural sciences than from the "hard" and "life" sciences.

Quote:
When you approach it with an open mind, it's so obvious that astrology works.
No, it's not, David! How can you ignore the many failures??? Examples of failures provided upon request. With an open mind we note that sometimes astrology works and sometimes it doesn't. No doubt some techniques and some individual astrologers are more accurate than others.

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So, the Scientific Method has failed the test, not Astrology.
What test would that be??????

Quote:
Back to the drawing board for the test designs! When aerodynamic science was in its infancy and couldn't explain why bees could fly--they had to expand the science to fit the facts. People, scientists included, can find ways to avoid seeing what they don't want to see; it's not intentional, and it happens to the best of us. Understanding how and why astrology works should be the goal, not pretending as though it has to prove its own existence as a real phenomenon. Understanding how bees fly led to the development of the helicopter. No telling what understanding how astrology works would advance Science itself.
A good example about bees, but not a good inference from it. The onus is on astrologers to make a better case: and we're not going to make it through ignorance of science or science-hating.
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Unread 11-11-2015, 10:20 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?



Aries the Ram
and all 12 zodiac signs on floor of Catholic Church
Basilica Santa Maria Degli Angeli e Dei Martiri
Republicca Plaza, Rome Italy.
http://blog.medicinegarden.com/2011/...tholic-church/
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Unread 11-11-2015, 10:28 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Saint-Jean Church Zodiac Clock
created in 1700 still "working"
the date, and even the zodiacal signs are up to date


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Unread 11-11-2015, 10:31 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Aulnay de Saintonge, (Charente-Maritime) Church of St Peter
West Facade, Centre Door
Tympanum with Zodiac cycle


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Unread 11-11-2015, 10:38 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Fresco, depicting Jesus Christ surrounded by the Zodiac circle
Dekoulou monastery, Mani, Peloponnese, Greece


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  #74  
Unread 11-12-2015, 06:11 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Scientists/priests using the scientific method/ritual in their laboratories/ temples to reveal the Laws of the Space-Time Continuum/God and creating amazing results/miracles. Scientists are zealots, spreading the gospel of their BELIEF that the material world is the only ONE true world, scoffing at those with a different belief paradigm/infidels, ridiculing other scientists who propose unorthodox theories/heretics, and their Holy Grail is a United Field Theory. Heard a story about an Aboriginal shaman in Australia who was told that some scientists using the Scientific Method had determined that his Dream Time wasn't real; to which he replied that, while in Dream Time, he had determined that Science wasn't real. All a matter of opinion.
David, have you digested anything I wrote? Please don't display further misunderstandings of science.... or misrepresentations.

Science and religion (or spirituality) do come from different paradigms. But religion is not always benign: look at what is happening with militant Islam in the Near East just now, the crusades, or child abuse by clergymen. Remember when both the Catholic and Protestant churches burned hapless people accused of being witches at the stake? How about pogroms or the Inquisition?

I could go on in this fashion, but you get the point.

How many scientists have you known personally? Please. Phone up your nearest university physics or chemistry department. Ask to meet with one of the faculty members over coffee or lunch, and put your concerns to them. See what they say. If this is too much of a stretch for you, just pick up some recent science textbooks in a used book store or at your public library. Page through them, and then let us know if they contain anything in support of your anti-scientific biases. Or just phone up some of the science teachers at your nearest public high school, and arrange to see them after hours, so that you can express your beliefs about science to them. See what they say. Or don't even show your hand. Just ask them to explain their field to you, and their beliefs about it.

I put it to you that you would find the challenge of speaking with actual scientists too confronting to your current beliefs to ever actually do something like this. But I would love to see you make the effort, and then report back.

There are a few scientists who enjoy debunking anything unscientific, such as Richard Dawkins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins But most scientists are not extremists. They certainly don't view science as a pseudo-religion. Prior to my retirement, I knew scientists who were active in all of the major religious faiths, and their religious faiths defined God for them, not the science that they practiced. Some no doubt were atheists, but nobody wore their atheism on their sleeves: their beliefs were private matters. I also wonder how you think the science departments at church-run universities (like BYU, SMU, Notre Dame, &c manage to function.)

Few scientists are actually working on a Unified Field Theory. So far as I know, research in this area is restricted to physics. Most physicists study other topics. Plus that sort of leaves out the geologists, meteorologists, botanists, zoologists, astronomers, chemists, neuroscientists, and medical researchers. So why even make a statement that you yourself could easily demonstrate to be incorrect, just by checking Wikipedia?

Scientists, of course, tend to be highly educated in specialized areas of research. But most of them go home at the end of the day to their spouse and kids. They have hobbies, and I've known some who were actually expert in them, ranging from deep-sea sailing to Russian composers. Some go to church or the house of worship of their choice.

Fundamentally, David, scientists are human beings like the rest of us. So why demonize a group of people, when you don't know even one of them personally, or understand how scientific research actually works? It just makes no sense.
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Last edited by waybread; 11-12-2015 at 06:59 AM.
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Verifying the scientific method using the scientific method is circular reasoning. No one doubts the miracles that can be achieved using it, but that doesn't make it the only way to define Reality. I find it beautiful myself, and it's a wonderful world view--just not the only valid one.
David, I don't think that most scientists actually think that science is the only way to define reality. I mentioned previously scientists who are active members of their religious faiths, and who teach at church-run universities. Academic scientists rub shoulders with professors of history, literature, philosophy, studio art, religious studies, music, law, and other fields that are respected and empirical in their own way, but that don't meet the definition of science.

And for good reason. If you're a historian, you cannot "test" the past in a lab or with a telescope. You can't put in a field season in the Middle Ages via a time machine. If your discipline is comparative religion, you generally do it from a more neutral or objective perspective if you teach at a public university.

The social sciences today are kind of a hybrid between science and the humanities. These are fields like anthropology and sociology. Psychology has trended much more to the side of science.

I would also encourage you to pick a comprehensive college or university, and look on-line at its faculty research interests and course descriptions.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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