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  #26  
Unread 11-08-2015, 06:42 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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--Nice term, "Establishment Science"! Since it took form against the backdrop religious institutions, it has some religious undertones, so: "Orthodox Science" fits it as well. And, it's about half and half--both real and fraudulent. Both honest research based on the Scientific Method and con artistry as well. And an honest Scientist's attitude is, "this is what is known so far; we'll learn more later". The frauds claim infallibility they don't have, to gain money, prestige, and power over our lives. There are charlatans in every field of knowledge, and Establishment Science is no exception. The question in this case is, which type of Scientist is in control of the Scientific agenda; is it about more knowledge, or more power at any price?
So David, if this is what you believe, what exactly is your scientific education? What is your impression of scientists trying to stem global climate change or species extinctions, and trying to cure cancer? I knew many scientists personally during my working career, and none of them wanted an iota of control over your life, believe me.

Generally the people who think science is some kind of fraud, masterminded by the cartoon character Evil Scientist, have no science education since high school. They have no idea of how science today actually works in research or as a collection of human beings who do science.

You typed your message on an electronic device, and sent it out over the Internet. Thank a scientist.

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  #27  
Unread 11-08-2015, 11:44 PM
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Engineering background; dropped out rather than serve the MIGC (Military/Industrial/Governmental/Complex. Every working engineer I knew ended up there, mostly because of the money and security. Thank scientists for Agent Orange, Hellfire rockets fired from computer guided drones, and Fukushima, fracking, and mountaintop removal to mine coal--as well as for the good stuff. The question is, which scientific agenda has the greatest priority: Making a better world for all of its inhabitants (flora and fauna included); or achieving domination and control at any price. It's about half and half. If I were just starting out now, I might have a better chance at being the kind of engineer I wanted to be then, and I encourage anyone who thinks they can make the world a better place through science to try; just so they know what they're up against.
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  #28  
Unread 11-09-2015, 12:15 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

So David, if this is what you believe, what exactly is your scientific education?
What is your impression of scientists trying to stem global climate change or species extinctions, and trying to cure cancer?
I knew many scientists personally during my working career,
and none of them wanted an iota of control over your life, believe me.

Generally the people who think science is some kind of fraud, masterminded by the cartoon character Evil Scientist,
have no science education since high school.
They have no idea of how science today actually works in research
or as a collection of human beings who do science.

You typed your message on an electronic device,
and sent it out over the Internet.

Thank a scientist
.
Scientists need to consider thanking those non-scientists who build their 'electronic device'


also
'electronic devices' are increasingly miniaturised
and so necessarily partially built by robots
before being checked and completed by factory workers
then stored somewhere, transported, bought, sold by non-scientists
on whom scientists are dependent
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  #29  
Unread 11-09-2015, 12:51 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So David, if this is what you believe, what exactly is your scientific education? What is your impression of scientists trying to stem global climate change or species extinctions, and trying to cure cancer? I knew many scientists personally during my working career, and none of them wanted an iota of control over your life, believe me.

Generally the people who think science is some kind of fraud, masterminded by the cartoon character Evil Scientist, have no science education since high school. They have no idea of how science today actually works in research or as a collection of human beings who do science.

You typed your message on an electronic device, and sent it out over the Internet. Thank a scientist.
your cheer leader support of science betrays the fact you don't know what you are talking about.
the archetype of the Evil scientist first appeared n the 20's In comic books. the evil scientist was modeled after nickolai tesla and in the first editions ,this evil scientist was identified as tesla. if you know who tesla was ,then you would know he was for world peace and a advocate of supplying the people of the world with free energy.

historically science has only been used to create better weapons of war and/or make the rich richer.
aristole designed weapons of war and alexander the great could have not conquered the world had he not sat at the feet of Aristotle and learned these idea. galileo, da Vinci , they were all commissiondr for purposes of war in-between their artistic endeavors. Einstein only became a popular hero after he advised Roosevelt to make an atomic bomb.... he offered this advised before the ww11 even started.

I suggest you read Robert laughlins book a different universe. he was awarded a nobel prize and in this book he describes a few of the "frauds " that science perpetrates to this day.


rahu
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  #30  
Unread 11-09-2015, 02:00 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Actually I know what I am talking about.

I have a M. S. degree. I worked around and socialized with scientists for 30 years, not counting my education; and was married to a scientist for 20 years. My late brother was an engineer, my brother-in-law is a retired engineer, my husband's late father was an engineer. A dear friend of mind is a retired aquatic biologist. None of these people were involved in the military-industrial complex. As a boomer, I am familiar with the problems of Agent Orange, and we had a tenant who was affected by it. I lost classmates to the war in Vietnam.

50/50 is way off base.

David, how long ago was your engineering program?

What I don't share with you guys is a kind of frisson at conspiracy theories, notably ones that blame an evil group In Control Of Our Destinies re: whatever upsets you.

But here's my challenge to you. Phone up the chair (undergrad advisor, faculty member, or grad student) at the science department of your choice (physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, geology, meteorology.....) at your closest university, and just offer to meet that scientist for coffee. Talk to her about the work s/he actually does, and the research that takes place at her/his lab or field area. Inquire about the big issues in science today.

Then let's talk.
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  #31  
Unread 11-09-2015, 02:14 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I vehemently anti-science. But it is naive to assume that much, much money and manpower is not being funnelled into the development of weaponry and other highly questionable technologies.

That doesn't mean that all science is bad, but you can't pretend this isn't happening.
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  #32  
Unread 11-09-2015, 03:07 AM
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Waybread, I was referring to the impact on the world, not the people working and teaching in the fields of science. During the Vietnam War, some people were so frightened by "the Red Menace" they thought the ends justified the means; now it's the "Terrorist Threat". I'm sure those working for Monsanto have been convinced they're doing good work in the area of GMOs, and some universities have had their science departments co-opted by ruthless power-hungry corporations. I don't believe there's an over-arching, masterminded Conspiracy. It's greed, stupidity, corruption, arrogance, and blind obedience to authority which is perverting the course of Modern Science.

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  #33  
Unread 11-09-2015, 06:34 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I vehemently anti-science. But it is naive to assume that much, much money and manpower is not being funnelled into the development of weaponry and other highly questionable technologies.

That doesn't mean that all science is bad, but you can't pretend this isn't happening.
Where did I post that I believe this isn't happening?

Honestly, Oddity. Your slippery slopes http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...ery-slope.html are getting very tiring.
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  #34  
Unread 11-09-2015, 06:46 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Waybread, I was referring to the impact on the world, not the people working and teaching in the fields of science. During the Vietnam War, some people were so frightened by "the Red Menace" they thought the ends justified the means; now it's the "Terrorist Threat". I'm sure those working for Monsanto have been convinced they're doing good work in the area of GMOs, and some universities have had their science departments co-opted by ruthless power-hungry corporations.
In the field of agronomy, there are some conflicts of interest. The ag program at the University of Guelph (one of Canada's major agricultural colleges) was called into question for its ties with industry. Maybe you are familiar with other cases.

Maybe you are also familiar with the Union of Concerned Scientists, Engineers Without Borders, and "ENGOs" like the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._organizations

I also have to note that a lot of the science research that takes place in universities is called "curiosity-driven," meaning that it is not applied, let alone commercialized, but is directed towards finding out how natural and physical systems function.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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  #35  
Unread 11-09-2015, 02:13 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

In the field of agronomy, there are some conflicts of interest.

Quite
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


The ag program at the University of Guelph (one of Canada's major agricultural colleges)
was called into question for its ties with industry.
Maybe you are familiar with other cases.
ANOTHER CASE OF AGRONOMY AND CLEAR CONFLICT OF INTEREST

the following 98 word QUOTE is well within forum rules

'.....Consider the Honey Bees anticipated replacement, RoboBee
whose frankenbee parents Monsanto and DARPA
are inspired by real-life honey and bumble bees currently plummeting toward extinction.
RoboBee mechanical bee is in design stage at Micro-Robotics Lab, Harvard University
Publicists state: "But we have nothing to do with colony collapse,
and we're sorry that the Honey Bee is dying..."
Nevertheless RoboBee project's top goal is to achieve mechanical pollination.
Monsanto, Bayer, Syngenta, et al,
those Big Ag companies whose agricultural chemicals are driving the honey bee's die-off
are waiting in the wings with their money-spinner robot bee pesticide-proof pollinator
....'


THE PROMISED LAND OF THE ROBOBEE - MONSANTO AND DARPA
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/revere...b_5441190.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Maybe you are also familiar with the Union of Concerned Scientists, Engineers Without Borders, and "ENGOs" like the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._organizations

I also have to note that a lot of the science research that takes place in universities is called "curiosity-driven,"
meaning that it is not applied, let alone commercialized,
but is directed towards finding out how natural and physical systems function.
Note also that current research at Harvard MicroRobotics Lab on the Robobee
may well be "curiosity-driven"
however
the intent on the part of Monsanto et al is clearly commercial application
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  #36  
Unread 11-09-2015, 06:20 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

I have been very active in the local food movement where I live; and trust me-- Monsanto here is equated to the Evil Empire. One of our neighbours who grew organics had a sign in the driveway saying, "No Mr. Monsanto: you do not own this land!" Please don't get me started on Roundup or "Terminator" seeds. A local organic dairy is highly concerned about the potential of GMO alfalfa contaminating its organic cattle feed.

And let's also not forget the role of government approval agencies for new products. Their bosses come up for periodic re-election by the public, in case nobody's noticed.

Let's at least be balanced about this. There is no uniformity amongst scientists. They don't all march to the same drummer. Some work for Monsanto. Others actively criticize Monsanto and promote more environmentally sustainable solutions to honey bee colony collapse and other Big Agribusiness problems.

What saddens me on forums like this one is the knee jerk reactions against scientists and science in general. Most of the reactors appear to be people with no serious science background, who fail to acknowledge their own role as consumers of ecologically harmful products. If you buy mass-produced monoculture-raised food crops from California at your local supermarket, point the finger at yourself. You're driving the problem of colony collapse. Buy organics and non-GMO foods. If they're more expensive, you'll at least put your money where your mouth is.

The science-haters really haven't a clue about science or scientists today.

And no, the science of yesteryear is not the science of today. Incidentally the earliest "mad science" stereotype was not based on Tesla. Mary Shelley's first edition of Frankenstein came out in 1818, and the myth of Dr. Faust (who sold his soul to the devil in exchange for genius) goes back to the Middle Ages.

I personally knew scientists who were doing the basic research to measure (and thus hopefully countering) global climate change and destruction of coral reefs. Others were involved in wetland restoration and water quality enhancement. One engineer was studying aircraft safety, another was looking at the safety of the highway infrastructure. Another was engaged in work to help lame people walk better. Most were engaged simply in the "curiosity-driven" fundamental research of finding out how different systems work.

And let's be honest. "Evil scientists"? Compared to what or whom? Jesus? Show me professions characterized by their utmost attention to integrity. The clergy? Used car salesmen? Bogus astrologers have the capacity to harm vulnerable people. A recent major scam involved an astrologer promising incredible help for people-- for fees well beyond the norm. She then gave them worthless readings that appear to have been computer-generated.

The problems of evil-doers have been noted since ancient times, long prior to the emergence of modern science. (Read Ecclesiastes.) It's not like the US military-industrial complex is unusual in this. But it's easier to blame them, than all of the voters who put the hawks into office.

From the Department of Reality Checks, W.
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  #37  
Unread 11-09-2015, 08:50 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by rahu View Post
your cheer leader support of science betrays the fact you don't know what you are talking about.
the archetype of the Evil scientist first appeared n the 20's In comic books. the evil scientist was modeled after nickolai tesla and in the first editions ,this evil scientist was identified as tesla. if you know who tesla was ,then you would know he was for world peace and a advocate of supplying the people of the world with free energy.

historically science has only been used to create better weapons of war and/or make the rich richer.
aristole designed weapons of war and alexander the great could have not conquered the world had he not sat at the feet of Aristotle and learned these idea. galileo, da Vinci , they were all commissiondr for purposes of war in-between their artistic endeavors. Einstein only became a popular hero after he advised Roosevelt to make an atomic bomb.... he offered this advised before the ww11 even started.

I suggest you read Robert laughlins book a different universe. he was awarded a nobel prize and in this book he describes a few of the "frauds " that science perpetrates to this day.


rahu
But this has nothing to do with science itself.

Science is merely the study of our natural laws, using the approach of testing different hypothesis based on evidence to understand how our world works, and through research see how we can modify it.

The fact that a portion of human beings choose to use this knowledge and its derived tools to kill each other, has nothing to do with what science really is.

Violence has been the economic drive of.... every living organism in the world, given that the biological priority of any entity is to kill and survive. So yeah, maybe a lot of the scientific research is oriented towards war and weapon manufacture, but thats just how life is.

I'm not saying it is a good thing, its just how the world works.

Many of our "good" scientific achievements have come from that. Mainly in the areas of medicine and communication
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Last edited by Dirius; 11-09-2015 at 08:57 PM.
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  #38  
Unread 11-09-2015, 10:17 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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But this has nothing to do with science itself.

Science is merely the study of our natural laws, using the approach of testing different hypothesis based on evidence to understand how our world works, and through research see how we can modify it.

The fact that a portion of human beings choose to use this knowledge and its derived tools to kill each other, has nothing to do with what science really is.

Violence has been the economic drive of.... every living organism in the world, given that the biological priority of any entity is to kill and survive. So yeah, maybe a lot of the scientific research is oriented towards war and weapon manufacture, but thats just how life is.

I'm not saying it is a good thing, its just how the world works.

Many of our "good" scientific achievements have come from that. Mainly in the areas of medicine and communication
since the beginning of the enlightment, science has replaced the concept of god in our consciousness. but as rational creature we reject that observation. But it is true as now a days when problems arise, everyone says "oh science will fix it" rather that god will fix in the times before the enlighten mine.
what you think the potential of science is ,is immaterial ,the fact is science has always been used for war and profits. we as I culture are programmed to believe democracy, science and justice are all synonymous. but this is just cultural propaganda.
look around you, fukishima has killed the north pacific and in a few years the entire pacific will be sterile. the problem with nuclear energy were pointed out in the very beginning, but scientists said" science will find a way to fix that".but science has not.

you should read a different universe as it gives example of the little lies that "science " covers up to keep the populous believing in science's omnipotent power for good.

rahu
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  #39  
Unread 11-09-2015, 10:35 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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But this has nothing to do with science itself.

Science is merely the study of our natural laws, using the approach of testing different hypothesis based on evidence to understand how our world works, and through research see how we can modify it.

The fact that a portion of human beings choose to use this knowledge and its derived tools to kill each other, has nothing to do with what science really is.

Violence has been the economic drive of.... every living organism in the world, given that the biological priority of any entity is to kill and survive. So yeah, maybe a lot of the scientific research is oriented towards war and weapon manufacture, but thats just how life is.

I'm not saying it is a good thing, its just how the world works.

Many of our "good" scientific achievements have come from that. Mainly in the areas of medicine and communication
Yay, Dirius! I totally agree with what you wrote.

(I know, I know-- shocking, isn't it?)
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #40  
Unread 11-09-2015, 10:49 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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since the beginning of the enlightment, science has replaced the concept of god in our consciousness. but as rational creature we reject that observation. But it is true as now a days when problems arise, everyone says "oh science will fix it" rather that god will fix in the times before the enlighten mine.
what you think the potential of science is ,is immaterial ,the fact is science has always been used for war and profits. we as I culture are programmed to believe democracy, science and justice are all synonymous. but this is just cultural propaganda.
look around you, fukishima has killed the north pacific and in a few years the entire pacific will be sterile. the problem with nuclear energy were pointed out in the very beginning, but scientists said" science will find a way to fix that".but science has not.

you should read a different universe as it gives example of the little lies that "science " covers up to keep the populous believing in science's omnipotent power for good.

rahu
Rahu, nobody denies instances of Science Gone Bad, but what you have here is a straw man debate fallacy. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Are you aware of scientists opposed to nuclear power, from its very inception? Or the admissions of some of its early proponents? Apparently not. In your universe, a monolithic science was in total agreement about its unqualified benefits. But this simply isn't the case. Apparently you are also unaware of the efforts of geoscientists to do a better job of forecasting tsunamis.

Science as it is practiced is a highly diverse field, engaging millions of scientists, technicians, and students globally. It covers all kinds of disciplines, literally from A (astronomy) to Z (zoology.)

Science never replaced the concept of God in modern society. This is called "scientism," incidentally. The US is still an extraordinarily religious country, compared to Europe or China. When I was working, it wasn't at all unusual at my employer to find religious scientists from the world's major religion.

Further, societies were plenty violent prior to the rise of science in the 18th century. Check out the 30 Years and Hundred Years Wars in Europe, the Roman invasions of their peaceful neighbours, and subsequent Teutonic conquests. You cannot blame science for war. Gunpowder, steel, and other weapons of war were developed prior to the Enlightenment.

Please cite your source on the entire Pacific ocean becoming sterile from the Fukashima nuclear disaster. I doubt that it was written by anyone who truly understood the marine science behind such a claim.
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  #41  
Unread 11-09-2015, 11:45 PM
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Smile Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

If Astrology is a science, it's not a science in the "orthodox", "establishment" sense, because that version excludes Astrology from its format. Waybread, since you know a lot of people in the modern scientific community, can you estimate how many of them accept it as a valid field of scientific study? One special case: I believe that mainstream Jungian analysts use astrology in their practice, and are themselves accepted by Establishment Science.

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Unread 11-09-2015, 11:46 PM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Yay, Dirius! I totally agree with what you wrote.

(I know, I know-- shocking, isn't it?)
Yeah!.... you and me to suddenly agree...

We've probably broken the universe with this.
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Last edited by Dirius; 11-10-2015 at 12:17 AM.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 12:13 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by rahu View Post
since the beginning of the enlightment, science has replaced the concept of god in our consciousness. but as rational creature we reject that observation. But it is true as now a days when problems arise, everyone says "oh science will fix it" rather that god will fix in the times before the enlighten mine.
what you think the potential of science is ,is immaterial ,the fact is science has always been used for war and profits. we as I culture are programmed to believe democracy, science and justice are all synonymous. but this is just cultural propaganda.
look around you, fukishima has killed the north pacific and in a few years the entire pacific will be sterile. the problem with nuclear energy were pointed out in the very beginning, but scientists said" science will find a way to fix that".but science has not.

you should read a different universe as it gives example of the little lies that "science " covers up to keep the populous believing in science's omnipotent power for good.

rahu
Not really.

The enlightenment was never opposed to the idea of a "God" or a deity of the sort. In fact most prominent figures of the era were indeed deeply religious men, and part of the enlightment was freedom of religion.

What they opposed was the idea of a dominant "church", the european caste system known as "nobility", and the monarchial political system known as "absolutism" of ruling by right of birth.

The individuals mostly pushed for freedom and rationale thinking. Science began to bloom under both this principles. But what science mostly did was oppose the man-made doctrines of the church.

Most great scientists of that time, were indeed religious men.

Galileo, the father of modern physics, was very interested in religion...and none of his work involved war machines.

---------

Science is used for whatever man needs it to be used. Its just a tool.

And it does fix your problems. Medicine fixes a lot of problems. We've found cures for lots of diseases that used to kill or cripple people.

Communication, transportation, medicine, mathematics, physics....what we have achieved as a species is just amazing.

-------

And on the subject of war. It is not just a "human" thing.

Most animals fight for territory and resources. When lions kill hyena's, they do so to reduce competition, and avoid predation of their cubs. In fact male lions are pretty much programmed to attack and kill other smaller/weaker predators on sight.

Recently, primatologists discovered that chimpanzee packs attack other groups of the same species with the only objective of territorial expansion and resource advantage. This has been seen as a war-like activity.

In fact we humans are, in a way, above this petty things. We created "commerce" (the practice of exchanging good), and through the study of economics we attempt to constantly refine this. In a way commerce is what separates us from beasts, given that we did learn to share, rather than to conquer.

War is only used as a last resort.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 01:25 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

astrology works plain and simple
especially horary!

we have a theory
we have examples / cases

theory = proof.

case closed
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Unread 11-10-2015, 03:34 AM
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Smile Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Yes, but how and why does it work? Until we know that, it's an Art, not a Science. Personally, I like the mystical mysteriousness of it all.

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Unread 11-10-2015, 05:20 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

We don't know how gravity works. That's why it's a law instead of a theory.

Astrology will never be a science under the current scientific paradigm. Astrology can't even reasonably exist in that paradigm.

But so what? Why do we need the approval of modern science to do what we do? It still works, even if it doesn't fit into a current scientific definition.
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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If Astrology is a science, it's not a science in the "orthodox", "establishment" sense, because that version excludes Astrology from its format. Waybread, since you know a lot of people in the modern scientific community, can you estimate how many of them accept it as a valid field of scientific study? One special case: I believe that mainstream Jungian analysts use astrology in their practice, and are themselves accepted by Establishment Science.

Astrology was considered scientific in centuries past, but it was always under scrutiny and criticism, even in the Greek and Roman worlds. This is why you see Hellenistic astrologers like Ptolemy and Firmicus Maternus going to considerable lengths to justify astrology to the sceptics. Part of the reason why astrology became a university subject in the Middle Ages was because of its affiliation with medicine.

The one astronomer I'm aware of who takes astrology seriously is Mike Brown, discoverer of some of the trans-Neptunians like Eris. http://www.mikebrownsplanets.com/200...trologers.html This isn't because he agrees with astrology's truth-claims; but rather, because he sees astrology as a cultural phenomenon with a poetic vision about humanity's relationship with the sky, and that shares a common history with astronomy.

Once the Copernican Revolution took hold and medicine began to make advances without the benefit of astrology, astrology's status as a science waned. The Copernican Revolution (ca. 1500) is really the beginning of the split between astronomy and astrology.

It is important to recognize that the science of the past is not the science of today. Science has evolved throughout its history, and we can't look at a past century as somehow typifying science in 2015.

Astrology today has very little in common with science. Science relies on the scientific method: hypothesis-testing, experimentation, data collection and analysis, and conclusions drawn from the results. This is usually done in a laboratory, observatory, or at carefully controlled field sites. Many disciplines are empirical, but we wouldn't call them science: like history, law, or accountancy, for example. The distinction between science and not-science isn't so much its factual basis (although astrology mightily struggles here,) but the methods employed. And astrology has yet to demonstrate its validity under scientific research conditions.

The scientific method is explained at: http://www.livescience.com/20896-sci...ic-method.html and http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html

This just isn't what astrologers do.

So David, the number of card-carrying scientists today who except astrology as scientific today (not in the Middle Ages) would be extremely small. (I dunno, like maybe 2 or 3?) This doesn't mean that historians of science dismiss astrology as a cultural phenomenon, or as a part of science in the past. Historians of science have uncovered a lot of intriguing information about astrology at different times in the past. It is understood that a lot of good astronomy in ancient times and during the Middle Ages was conducted for purposes of astrology.

I can supply references if anyone is interested.

Jungian psychology is not mainstream psychology. I tried to look it up in university catalogues and in overviews of psychology some months ago, and found only two accredited comprehensive universities in the US that offered Jungian courses in the psychology departments. Jungian psychology is taught at specialized institutes, however. Some of them are approved by higher education accreditation bodies, and some are not. Today psychology is considered to be "behavioural science" and even has some overlap with neuroscience. Jungian psychology just doesn't fit this model, as none of it was based on controlled experiments. Actually, some of Jungian psychology is more akin to the humanities, with its emphasis on mythology.

I can't say how many Jungian psychologists use astrology in their practice. If you start googling these practitioners, I suspect that they would be in the minority. Liz Greene's psychology credentials were suspect, as her Ph. D. was from a short-lived "institute." When she recently returned to university (Bristol, 2010) for a credible Ph. D., she did not get it in psychology, but in history.

A few years ago a judge in India declared astrology to be a "science." This got the actual physicists, chemists, &c in India rather alarmed. The text of the judge's decision, however, reads more like a very loose definition of science that we see used in English, just meaning a body of knowledge of long-standing. In this sense, I might talk about the "science" of baking a cake. I personally don't mean anything physical or chemical about cake-baking, but more that there is a body of knowledge about baking, and the procedures can be exacting.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 09:16 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Yes, but how and why does it work? Until we know that, it's an Art, not a Science. Personally, I like the mystical mysteriousness of it all.
That isn't really the case.

Like Oddity mentioned, we don't know how gravity works. We don't know many things that are used by science, we just know their effects.

Like the renown physicist Richard Feynman states:

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

Science is merely the compound knowledge done by research, through testable evidence, done for an extended period of time. We still have no idea why many things in our universe work the way they do.

-------

Regarding astrology as a science. The problem with astrology is that its foundational idea is based on a hypothesis.

The whole framework of astrology works on the asumption of aristotelian thought combined with myth, and the percieved notion that ancient humans gave to certain planets (like Venus being the planet of "Love").

Using that perspective, anyone can challenge the basis of astrology.

Also, while astrology can be submitted to the scientific method, it is rather hard to find parameters accepted by science, given that astrology is too much subjective, and while certain patterns do explain similar things, you would need a rather broad margin in order to achieve a scientific conclusion regarding it.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 09:46 AM
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Smile Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

Excellent answer. Establishment science has finalized the divorce of astronomy from astrology, and scientific method has been used to "prove" that astrology "doesn't work". My impression is that the scientific community got the results it wanted from those tests, and the astrologers involved weren't careful enough. Aside from the possibility the tests were rigged, there's another factor to consider: Social and traditionalistic pressure cause a majority of people to go against their own chart; and it takes either a staunch Individualist or a supportive situation for a test subject to match what an astrologer would say about chosen profession, for example. Anyhow, scientists and astrologers have agreed to disagree, and that's that.
I had missed that connection between astrology and the practice of medicine. In the 16th Century, astrologers (men) could dispense medical advice while the real healers, (mostly women herbalists, like Kepler's mother) were targets of religious persecution.
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Unread 11-10-2015, 10:21 AM
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Re: Is Astrology a Religion?

There are serious problems with scientific testing of astrology. One is that the tests are often devised by scientists - who often don't know what they're looking for, are testing claims that astrology has never made in the first place, and wouldn't know a significant result if they fell over it (looking for one thing, but accidentally finding something else, for example).

A few times I've known of science offering to 'sponsor' research by astrologers. But how that's worked - hey, we'll give you $5000 to test this theory. When astrologers don't jump at the chance of that much money being able to support themselves, a staff, software coding, and probably a research facility, however modest, for a year or two - well, obviously the astrologers are con artists. After all, any scientist would love to get that kind of funding for a couple of years' full-time work - right?

Let's not forget the jewel in the crown: horary. How would you test sincere questions, the kind people lose sleep over and ask when they just have to know (those pretty much being the conditions) in a scientific way? It's not something that can be performed on demand. Granted, any competent horarist has enough charts in their files to be personally convinced of its value, but that doesn't translate to 'scientific evidence'.

It also really, really, really bothers me that doctors are allowed to be wrong - and medicine is not invalidated. Physicists are allowed to be wrong - and yet physics is still valid. Even in the non-sciency fields, if an accountant makes a mistake, that doesn't invalidate accountancy. But let an astologer be wrong, or let there be an astrological charlatan, or even let an astrologer not be a mind-reader, and the field is considered invalid. Why the wild discrepancy in standards here?

There's one web page I'm looking for that I can't find, but meanwhile:

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscience/harding.htm

and

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscience/elres.htm

Lengthy, but worth your time if you're really interested in this.

And really, why would we want to do this? I don't agree with Dirius that astrology's foundation is mostly Aristotle and myth (though I did have to read a tonne of Aristotle when I started studing traditional astrology, it was one of my first assignments, and yes, he's important), but then again, I get into the really hysty-mysty stuff like stoicism, hermeticism, and astrological magic.

Somehow I just can't see modern-day science saying that astrology is something God gave humans to help us.

I'm not bitter about that, but the atheist-materialist paradigm, and the paradigm(s) astrology comes out of - not even close to each other. Yet there are scientists who don't dismiss astrology, sometimes even in their work, because it can have some pragmatic value. And, of course, there are astrologers who don't hate science.

I just wish we could get of of this damnable binary thinking of us against them.

Last edited by Oddity; 11-10-2015 at 10:24 AM.
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