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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #1  
Unread 02-14-2014, 05:18 AM
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Cypocryphy Cypocryphy is offline
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I have found the signature for alcoholism

Or at least one/some of them. Feel free to test me with charts of those who may or may not be an alcoholic. I would like to see.

This is a hypothesis at the moment, but if you have any anonymous charts of alcoholics and wouldn't mind posting them on here, then I shall attempt to identify. Please do not reveal whether the person is an alcoholic. It's the only way to test.

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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:26 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I don't think there is a single signature for charts of alcoholics. Neptune squaring a personal planet is common; but then many people with such an aspect are not substance abusers, and some people who are substance abusers don't show it.

If you want to look up charts of alcoholics, I recommend the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst. Many celebrities had this affliction; and the data bank also indicates ordinary citizens with this problem.

What signature have you found?
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:32 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Yeah. Already did that. Looked at a lot. Thanks.

I work with the premise that astrological potentials operate as probabilities. Probable outcomes rather than deterministic. But you have a great probability under certain stellar configurations.

I'm not going to publish it on the forum if I found it. It will either come out in a research journal or a book.

I first of all want to look at a lot more, and second of all, would like to apply it to see if the result is noteworthy.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:36 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post

I work with the premise that astrological potentials operate as probabilities. Probable outcomes rather than deterministic. But you have a great probability under certain stellar configurations.
I too follow this same perspective: trends, susceptibilities, likelihoods, but not determinism!
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:38 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Here's a test: subject the Marilyn Monroe chart to your method-it is known that she had a significant drinking problem (and, today, she would have been considered an "alcoholic")
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:40 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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I too follow this same perspective: trends, susceptibilities, likelihoods, but not determinism!
Ha ha. Oh yeah. I think just like you. Experience and my experiments bear that out. That's why I apply statistics. I think astrology is very suitable to statistics, some of it anyway. The trick is to creatively develop experiment models to test some of these astrological "understandings." That is the challenging part.

Speaking of which, I am developing some experiments for some of the hellenistic work. I'll share it with you when something noteworthy occurs.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:48 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Here's a test: subject the Marilyn Monroe chart to your method-it is known that she had a significant drinking problem (and, today, she would have been considered an "alcoholic")
Okay . . . I looked and she doesn't really have those key astrological configurations. As of now, I am truly only operating under a hypothesis, but if I were to apply that hypothesis to her chart, I would say that she is not an alcoholic, which (1) may mean she wasn't or (2) she's an anomaly or operates under a different signature or (3) this needs to be further refined.

Speaking of which, I think I might be able to download the Gauquelin database. Have you done that?

(Just looked up Marylin. Clearly used alcohol a lot, so point (1) is clearly not it.)
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Unread 02-14-2014, 06:18 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Dr. Farr. I'm going to PM you something that you'll find very interesting, and it will give you a hint on where I am going.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 06:18 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Marilyn Monroe was a very special "case", in many ways-so perhaps she might have been an anomaly or under a different signature.

No I have not looked at the Gauquelin database-mostly I have used charts of people wh have come to me for homeopathic therapeutics, also the astro-databank somewhat; actually though, most of what might be termed my "research" has been along astro therapeutic (ie medical astrology) lines, and a special area of mine (avocationally) has been with disaster charts (rather than personal natal charts)
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Unread 02-14-2014, 06:35 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Marilyn Monroe was a very special "case", in many ways-so perhaps she might have been an anomaly or under a different signature.

No I have not looked at the Gauquelin database-mostly I have used charts of people wh have come to me for homeopathic therapeutics, also the astro-databank somewhat; actually though, most of what might be termed my "research" has been along astro therapeutic (ie medical astrology) lines, and a special area of mine (avocationally) has been with disaster charts (rather than personal natal charts)
Oh yes! A lot of your work with the lunar nodes. I remember. I hope one day you publish that. I would certainly buy it!!
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Unread 02-14-2014, 08:07 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Here is a chart of an alcoholic. Feel free to interpret.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 11:21 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Ebenia...
My bet is that the chart you posted blows Cypocryphy's signatures out of the water. I would venture to say that none of those signatures appears in this chart.

But look who is singleton by hemisphere, the exactly-centered handle of a striking bucket pattern..."ruthlessness", opposing Jupiter (emotional responses blown out of all proportion, and Jupiter rules 12th) along the meridian axis, and partile square the Asc; also trine Saturn (who stands on the 6-12 axis and is lord of the horoscope) and quincunx her lord Mars. She (Moon) absolutely dominates the chart [The "emotional nature" -- as described by the chart in detail -- dominates the personality and life].

We also find Mercury in Virgo (who rules 6th and is very weakly aspected) disposing all planets but Sun (using 7 planets) -- who is in the 8th and independent, sesquicuadrate Moon.

These are the factors in this chart that, to my mind, are principal indicators of alcoholism.

We could add the octile of Mercury and Uranus in 8th as corroborative. The aspect is indicative of "friction" and involves the 8th.

[P.S.: Saturn/Uranus=Moon is said by Ebertin to suggest "Strong emotional tensions and strains, states of depression. Inconstancy. The sudden desire to liberate oneself from emotional stress...." and Moon holds an exceptionally strong predominance in this chart, and this midpoint formation provides the structural basis for the whole chart -- and comes to focus on the IC. There is a strong emphasis on "ego" (self-centeredness) in the chart, with the predominant Moon in Aries and the whole chart structured on the grand trine in Fire and both Lights in that Element, to which is added a preponderance of Fire.]

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Unread 02-14-2014, 08:32 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Ebenia, I brought up the Neptune squaring a personal planet as a "quick and dirty" guide, with the caveats I posted above.

There are at least two other types of alcoholics. One are people with a fairly painful chart. Life hurts. Alcohol is a form of self medication. I think this person's chart falls into this category. You've got that 8th house sun-Pluto-Mars in Leo with a Saturn square to Mars-Pluto. This person's ego takes a beating. But Neptune and the moon (traditional ruler of alcohol) offer some relief.

Another type of alcoholic or drug addict has a chart showing s/he is headed for some very underworld experiences, and substance abuse is a quick ticket to get there.

But there are always wild cards in astrological signatures. Sometimes people drink out of boredom, to be one of the guys in a drinking culture, &c.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 12:12 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Ebenia...
My bet is that the chart you posted blows Cypocryphy's signatures out of the water. I would venture to say that none of those signatures appears in this chart.
I'd agree with that . Yet there are occasions and charts that prove the exception to the rule.

Quote:
But look who is singleton by hemisphere, the exactly-centered handle of a striking bucket pattern..."ruthlessness", opposing Jupiter (emotional responses blown out of all proportion, and Jupiter rules 12th) along the meridian axis, and partile square the Asc; also trine Saturn (who stands on the 6-12 axis and is lord of the horoscope) and quincunx her lord Mars. She (Moon) absolutely dominates the chart [The "emotional nature" -- as described by the chart in detail -- dominates the personality and life].
Like Waybread, I would look to Neptune ('spirit' in whichever way one interprets its meaning) regarding alcohol issues; too often in a harsh aspect with either Mars or Saturn, as ego/self esteem problems. Yet Neptune's function isn't recognised in traditional techniques.
Are you saying that, traditionally speaking, Moon-Jupiter is the equivalent of a Neptune issue OR, that Jupiter alone, as ruler Pisces, is the planet associated with alcoholism?

The chart is Equal House because of high latitude. Although Saturn is chart ruler, it may not be conjunct 12th-6th house axis in other house systems.
Traditionally, is its importance therefore judged as chart ruler only?

Quote:
We also find Mercury in Virgo (who rules 6th and is very weakly aspected) disposing all planets but Sun (using 7 planets) -- who is in the 8th and independent, sesquicuadrate Moon.

These are the factors in this chart that, to my mind, are principal indicators of alcoholism.
Yet would/could you have made the same judgement had you not known beforehand that the chart was that of an alcoholic? Not all emotionally reactive people grab for the bottle.

Ebenia:
Saturn, as ruler Asc., in Sag. is on a heart degree. Does Mars square Saturn refer to blood pressure/clots issues that could lead to the Leo heart problems?? Or any chronic disorder (e.g.muscle) that affects agility and mobility (mutable sign emphasis). A heavy drinker might also see the issues with Virgo arise....intestinal area, pancreas;
Mercury, as probable ruler 6th house, does not make any harsh aspects that might be associated with any physical disorder.

Just curious for learning purposes.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 05:41 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
Here is a chart of an alcoholic. Feel free to interpret.
Interesting chart. This is an unusual chart since it is at such a high longitude. I would like you to keep this chart up here, if that is alright. (And thank you for posting it.) I would like to come back to this at a later point.

Would I say that this chart is the chart of an alcoholic? I would say it is definitely possible, and I would say that it has nothing to do with Neptune. I will PM you, if that is okay, but I must do so at a later point because I am too tired at the moment, and I would like a clear head and mind before I say anything about the chart of someone whom I imagine you have a personal relationship with.

As to further insights about alcoholism, further work needs to be conducted, but I definitely see that I am on to something. If only there were grants for this kind of work, then it would be so much easier and quicker.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 07:25 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

My answer to Frisiangal is yes, I would have seen the potential.

The Moon is so powerful in the chart....and all the personal characteristics I cited, plus things I didn't say, show the strong possibility of dependence of some sort.

What makes for an alcoholic? Having been a member in good standing of Bill W.'s gang, I am familiar with typical personality traits, and these are shown in spades in this chart.

We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars... Before 1850 there was no Neptune, but there were alcoholics.

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Unread 02-15-2014, 08:24 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I can't say for certain if I would have diagnosed alcoholism (per se) from this chart-however I definitely would have noticed some significant indications for "problems of excess" here, and a significant likely psychological motivation at the root of such potential problems:
-the primary "significator" for excess-Jupiter, is high in the chart (placed highly)and is squared by the ascending degree (so-"excess" Jupiter is in conflict with the personality and bodily health, signified by the ascending degree) and is also opposed by the Moon
-Moon is in partile square to the ascending degree: an important disruptive aspect (mind/emotions signficator Moon in conflict with personality and overall bodily health-ie, ascending degree/1st house)
-the qualities (positive and negative) of Scorpio are amplified by positing the North Node; also the significance of Neptune for this person (again, both positive and negative quality potentials) is also magnified because Neptune shares this sign(Scorpio) with the North Node (is sign conjunct the North Node); the qualities of Taurus (which can include self-indulgence) are at least somewhat vitiated by the South Node positing that sign
-5 planets (including Moon and Sun) posit fiery signs, with only 1 planet (Neptune) in water: could indicate a "burning" quality, with no offset by elemental water, which perhaps could be an indicator of a kind of "thirst" as basic to the astrological/elemental constitution of this person
-the most elevated point of the chart, the MC-in NN amplified Scorpio-applies to a close square to 8th house Pluto: certainly indicative of deep, hidden potential disruptive tendencies possibly affecting the "fate" of the person (oldtime astrology considered the MC to be indicative of the "fate" of the individual)
-some disruptive stars are connected with elements of this chart: the ascending degree conjuncts the nebula Facies; the dispositor of the rising sign (and also the monomoiria ruler of the ascending degree), 12th house placed Saturn, is conjunct Han and (probably) Antares; the Moon is conjunct Algenib; and potential "excess" significator, Jupiter, through its conjunction with the star Nodus I, is thereby connected with influences from the constellation, Draco (for indications of these stars and their connections, see for example, entries @ constellationsofwords.com)...
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Unread 02-15-2014, 10:27 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
My answer to Frisiangal is yes, I would have seen the potential.

The Moon is so powerful in the chart....and all the personal characteristics I cited, plus things I didn't say, show the strong possibility of dependence of some sort.
Thank you, Greybeard. The Moon dependence issue is strong.
My questions were asked seriously.
Too old to want to venture fully and deeply into the methodology of traditional techniques, yet I'm becoming more aware of its value and assets in interpretation.
Must be tr. Saturn through Scorpio.

Quote:
We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars... Before 1850 there was no Neptune, but there were alcoholics.
Just because it couldn't be seen with the naked eye didn't mean it wasn't there to exert its influence upon mankind as a whole.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 10:52 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Thank you for all of your comments. Very interesting comments.

Few things that come to my mind about your posts
- This person is VERY emotional. She gets emotional about everything and she lives life through emotion, both good and in bad. She gets emotional about other peoples things and does blame her self for things, but is unwilling to go very deep in things - this person is not very "insightful" into deeper psychological processes or anything like that but connects to the depths of life only from emotional perspective, not mental
- Kept a good job for many many years until was laid off because of alcoholism
- Has been drinking for 15 years, with worse and better times in between but never sober
- Has never admitted having a problem with drinking
- Unwilling to go to treatment
- Marriage was destroyed because of drinking (there were other problems before that that might have "lead" to drinking)
- Health has been pretty good and has only been in hospital once because of excessive drinking in the summer
- Once fell while was drunk and broke her shoulder and had a surgery on it
- Bloodpressure problems to some extent but not massive (mostly due with alcoholism and weight gain)
- Mostly very healthy and strong body, no flues or infections
- Main personality very loving and gentle but under the influence can be harsh and unsophisticated
- Not aggressive whilst drunk, but drinks to the point of being unconscious
- Can be very critical towards other people at times

Even though this person is definitely an alcoholic, there are parts to their personality that are whole and very loving. Very generous and a people-person. A strong need to be liked.

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Unread 02-15-2014, 12:40 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Hi. I think that the tension between Saturn and Neptune is the core astrological signification of alcoholism. Obviously this can show up in many ways and needn't involve a Saturn Neptune aspect. Where Neptune is strong in a chart (including by rulership) the native can struggle to meet the corporeal world on its own, seemingly harsh and demanding, terms. This can lead to a retreat from life through something like alcohol, whether or not Saturn is also strong in the chart. These views aren't grounded in going over loads of charts of people suffering from alcoholism. But they are based partly on reflection on some actual cases, including people known to me personally.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 03:45 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
Here is a chart of an alcoholic. Feel free to interpret.
I see a lot of signatures there that could trigger addictive behavior. However, that comes to the question of WHY someone drinks. I think you need several factors in place to create an alcoholic or any addictive behavior - the astrological signatures, the opportunity, and the environment. The astrological signatures we can see in the chart. The opportunity comes with transits. The environment we cannot predict and often comes down to free will - the person has to take the first step, or not.

People drink or engage in addictive behavior for many reasons. Not all signatures will be conducive to each one.

1. Traumatic events (death of someone close, PTSD from war, etc)
2. escape personal pain (depression, bad home environment, etc)
3. escape chaotic environment (bad marriage, celebrity, etc)
4. peer pressure (young person in a party college atmosphere)
5. boredom (soldier far from home and little else to do)
6. physiological problems (body is addicted to the substance even after just a couple events)

Each of the reasons above may be result of different astrological signatures and triggers. In the chart you have provided, the signatures I see as "possible" triggers but not guaranteed (still need opportunity and environment) are:

1. Uranus opposite Chiron - classic addictive behavior indicator. Escaping (uranus) of personal emotional pain (chiron), a struggle (opposition). Made worse with Chiron in Aquarius (erratic behavior, drugs, fantasy)

2. Mars conjunct Pluto square Saturn - major problems with self control, abilities to solve problems or handle stress compromised. Mars semisextile Uranus provides outlet with addiction through Chiron. Sun conjunct Pluto also in Leo, gives "poor me" syndrome.

3. Moon trine Uranus, with Moon in Aries. More open to bold, obnoxious behavior, easy release point of stress.

4. Moon opposite Jupiter - struggles with excess, can over do things or over indulge. Jupiter in Libra so maintaining balance a struggle.

5. Mars sextile Neptune, classic substance abuse signature. Provides opportunity for abuse, doesn't guarantee it, but certainly makes it much easier and more appealing.

6. Moon square ASC - highly susceptible to outside influences, negatively impacted by the outside world. Sun also sesquiquadrate the ASC, same issue, heavily impacted by outside world.


I see a lot of signatures in this chart to indicate the POTENTIAL of substance abuse. We'd have to study the transits to see if they are triggered into action. With Uranus having crossed the Moon and Pluto crossing the ASC at the very least, I'd say yes.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 03:58 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I can't say for certain if I would have diagnosed alcoholism (per se) from this chart-however I definitely would have noticed some significant indications for "problems of excess" here, and a significant likely psychological motivation at the root of such potential problems:
-the primary "significator" for excess-Jupiter, is high in the chart (placed highly)and is squared by the ascending degree (so-"excess" Jupiter is in conflict with the personality and bodily health, signified by the ascending degree) and is also opposed by the Moon
-Moon is in partile square to the ascending degree: an important disruptive aspect (mind/emotions signficator Moon in conflict with personality and overall bodily health-ie, ascending degree/1st house)
This ^

That is exactly what I was going to say. I don't have the chart up above, but of particular concern was the state of Venus (emotions/social interactions), conjoined to Jupiter, the former in a state of fall. And as Dr. Farr said, you have Jupiter (operating as an exaggerating force) in opposition to the Moon (personality and temperament)—both of which are quartile the ascendant (the self and component of ego). This is a big personality and quite social, and at first I was going to say this is the man who spends a lot of time at the bar (granted I would not have red-flagged this chart as an alcoholic), but since this is the chart of a female, I would have labeled her a "party girl." She has big moods, and for lack of a better word, I would have said (did write this down) she has what can only be labeled as a histrionic temperament. [As an aside, I knew I should have mentioned this before you posted, but I was so tired last night.]

Why would this lead to drinking or someone with the potential for an alcohol problem? Well, like others have said, there are various and diverse reasons for why one comes to drink, sometimes from social situations (repeated parties in college) to boredom (the bored housewife who begins drinking to ease the malaise of house cleaning) to the person who numbs themselves. This person I would judge to be the latter. She drinks to (1) be social and (2) to clam down.

I would also have said, though it doesn't sound like it, that she can be combative when she drinks. She sounds nice, but judging from the chart, I would say she can be very difficult, especially when she drinks.

As to my signatures, she has one minor one but her chart is not one that I would put a red flag on because many others have such a situation and are not alcoholics. Maybe, just maybe, I would place a yellow flag here.

This quick analysis is approaching the chart from the standpoint of what personality and temperament indications would lead someone to use alcohol based on my knowledge of what an alcoholic is. My statistical approach makes no suppositions, and it is this reason that I think it might provide some interesting insights. The problem at the moment is that there are certain spurious factors that may account for certain patterns that could have nothing to do with alcoholism but symbolize, or represent, common life situations for these individuals. These need to be identified, and this is why I am giving myself more time to work with this research theme.
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Last edited by Cypocryphy; 02-15-2014 at 05:14 PM.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 04:00 PM
Ebenia Ebenia is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Great analysis mdinaz.

I personally always thought that the Neptune at 0 degrees could indicate a karmic problem with this illusionary type of energy that Neptune provides. It might be that the energy of Neptune is worked in a paradoxical way: instead of turning dreams into reality, the reality is turned into an foggy illusion by the use of substance. So the person sees the world and the things that are wrong with her life, but instead of using her visions and dreams to make it better, they cannot cope with it and just turn the reality to something that they can live with better by dozing themselves up with a substance so nothing in the reality bothers them anymore. So instead of becoming a hero (Neptune can make one into with the use of dreams and rising from the ashes with the strength of a vision and a dream), they become the victim of their own vision. So they fight the reality and they are unable to accept it. But if they would just accept the reality and work with it and themselves (Saturn) they would be able to make it dream-like over time (Neptune+Saturn). But because they are pushing against the reality, they are never getting where they actually want to be.

I think this is the main problem with people with substance problems. That is why when people with substance problems go to rehab and actually face their problem and the reality (Saturn) with other people who have a more of an realistic and loving perspective on the reality, they start to get better and they do not need the substance anymore to dull out their own perception because they already feel better about the situation where they are in and the reality where they are in.

Anyway...a lot of thoughts, but hope it makes sense. So basically the clash of reality (Saturn) with the vision (Neptune)...and this can be seen in the chart with Neptune 0 degrees and squaring Saturn...

Last edited by Ebenia; 02-15-2014 at 04:02 PM.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 04:00 PM
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Cypocryphy Cypocryphy is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi. I think that the tension between Saturn and Neptune is the core astrological signification of alcoholism.
Nice observation, Miquar. Nice, indeed.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 04:11 PM
Ebenia Ebenia is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
This ^
This is a big personality, and at first I was going to say this is the man who spends a lot of time at the bar (granted I would not have red-flagged this chart as an alcoholic), but since this is the chart of a female, I would labeled her a "party girl." She has big moods, and for lack of a better word, I would have said (did write this down) she has what can only be labeled as a histrionic temperament.

to the person who numbs themselves. This person I would judge to be the latter. She drinks to (1) be social and (2) to clam down.

I would also have said, though it doesn't sound like it, that she can be combative when she drinks. She sounds nice, but judging from the chart, I would say she can be very difficult, especially when she drinks.
.
Definitely a big personality. I went and read some part of the "symptoms" for histrionic temperament and I can definitely see parts of that in her. Definitely. However, she is not ALWAYS like that. Sometimes she is actually understanding and very likeable, but sometimes very selfish (especially when drinking).

She can be very much of a drama queen and very difficult to deal with, the ego gets absolutely massive when she drinks. She is not aggressive physically (at least not that I know of), but she is very passive aggressive and demanding and does not seem to see any wrong in herself and is unwilling to admit to anything like that. So she is definitely a difficult person to deal with when under the influence. She just does not have a lot of flexibility, she is very stubborn...She is also very jealous of others and likes to gossip...this comes off a lot when drinking, especially when getting tipsy.

When she does not drink, she loves to cook and indulge in great food, throw small "get togethers" and likes to be the center of attention in those.

But to mention, she was actually for years very good at her work. She received great compliments and always did her work really well. She was very neat, precise, excellent with learning new languages and did well in a social environment at work.
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