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  #1  
Unread 06-14-2007, 10:00 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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mental health and the "ego"

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Unread 06-14-2007, 02:16 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

What we perceive as mental issues in people are indeed defense mechanisms and are indeed designed to protect the individual. dark or ego energy is quite wimpy and it will not confront dark energy. dark energy/ego energy will travel to the path of least resistance and of least suspecting, ex a small child who throws temper tantrums and is giving into their own dark energy/their own ego, or a small child who has every reason to be very upset, his/her parents are or have been abusing him/her, etc. and then as we grow from childhood on we forget that we gave into the dark/ego energy and yet we are still carrying it around with us no matter how well behaved or misbehaved we are. the better behaved we are the more we absorb universal dark/ego energy. the person who is well behaved is unaware they move through the world absorbing ego energy and occassionally gives some of their energy out because they are provoked to do so and they wonder why they have such a hard time getting ahead. the person who is less well behaved may well have a better chance of getting ahead because there is less resistance against them. we all reach our higher abilities when we expel the ego energy we've carried and heal that energy so that it does not travel on to someone else who is not healed.
it makes perfect sense to me that astrology cannot show defense mechanisms in specific parts but only as a whole. and since we do not typically harbor constructive thoughts (we are societally trained to be thankful we are not that, or to give them their extra space, or to not confront them, etc), toward people who exhibit defense mechanisms, it would also be very difficult for us to see the whole picture astrologically.
We need to have compassion, not pity and not a thanks it is him/her/them not me attitude, we also need not give anger to not so pretty truths.
we absolutely must stop condemning anyone for any reason. if you perceive something as questionable, you are closest to the truth to think that the root of what you find questionable is not known.
news is designed to make us feel strongly about some event, and until we know the whole truth which news raely to never does, we need to stop taking this bait. and when you do take a stand on one side or another, try to do so leniently in case the side you are on is actually not where you would stand if you knew the whole truth.
~rainbows
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Unread 06-14-2007, 04:00 PM
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insanity, to rainbows

rainbows,

You said:
Quote:
we absolutely must stop condemning anyone for any reason
I think there are reasons to condemn (i.e., to "express strong disapproval of") an insane person. Once an insane person becomes an insane KILLER, we need to condemn and punish their actions. The Manson killings, Boston strangler, etc. are all actions that need to be condemned and punished.

Non-astrologically,

Tim
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Unread 06-14-2007, 05:10 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

a few ways to look at killer's motive.
1. some are born with a mission to be a psychopathic killer, then we do so with the intention of teaching everyone about psychopathic natures. a killer has the make up that someone who merely holds in his/her mind the idea of wanting someone killed. if this is the case, the killer is taking the rap for someone else. in which case thanks should be given to the killer for doing someone else's dirty work. and boy should the one's who had a mind to want someone killed feel really bad with self and likely they do feel really bad but on a subconscious level which manifests as unpredictable behavior.

2. no one is born with the intention to harm anyone and his/her physical life went terribly wrong to produce a killer.
until very recently i was guilty of thinking thank God I am not in those shoes, but now i feel compassion for anyone who took a road that lead them to kill anyone for any reason. now, no matter how violence comes about, my responsibility to it is to work even harder at being the peace i want for the world and not to wrack my brain wondering how violence came to be.

3. people who kill people they know, people they supposedly love: i think in
extreme times and cases, murder is the only way we can come up with to save our loved ones. suicide is surely about leaving the pain of this world. we know at our core that there is no pain in 'death' and we also know there is no such thing as actual death, just life in an unseen way. i also think people get confused on how to pay back karma.
i am still on the fence whether or not 'death' by murder is a person's destiny or prematurely ends our physical life.
2012 prophecies is approaching as a permanent disconnect between peace and violence and i hope everyone chooses peace.
No person anywhere deserves permanency to violence, but free will has a very strong hold on violence. and i do not think free will will be dissolved. absolutely everything was created with free will.
~rainbows
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Unread 06-15-2007, 11:19 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

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Unread 06-15-2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

Some stuff to add to the pot. i had/have what i consider an A+ mother, one who devotes her time to her children, who gives her love and her wisdom and does so quietly and unassumingly. she had no unhealthy habits, so i only knew/know her as healthy. i was 12 when she suffered an anuerism and she passed about 2 weeks later leaving her 4 children with a father who was developed only in one area, the ability to provide for his family. i have uranus in house 4 in libra, my mother's sun sign, pluto at 29 degrees virgo in house 4 and neptune in 5.
my husband grew up in the projects with very little money, with a very controlling and very young mother and a father who also took the role of provider as best he could. my husband sustained a lot of abuse and consequently there was a lot of holes in his development stemming from his
formative years.
one week after we began going out, i bought him a book about abusing God. a friend of mine asked if he was on drugs. no, his mother did prevent from turning to drugs. and i learned that abuse of any kind has the exact same symptoms.
the only thing my husband has in the southern hemisphere of his chart is chiron in house 1.
i have always had a passion for philosophy, i am a piscean on the cusp of aquarius.
~Rainbows
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Unread 06-15-2007, 10:05 PM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

Jag,
You said, " whole chart has to be taken into consideration, some aspects might stand out more frequently in some disorders than others, though. but globally it rests still a very elusive thing."

This is ALWAYS true....
However, there are always major hints when someone has the chart of a being who will have more than the usual share of human torments in his/her life.
First, notice the oppositions. Oppositions are always a hint of trouble. The worst oppositions are those where an outer planet (I call them "god" planets because they represent energy we think as coming from god... when an outer planet opposes a personal planet. In Neitzsche's chart, there are 3 such oppositons.

Often these oppositions represent early trauma in the subject, and if that person is suseptible to emotional repercussions, that can be the beginning of a lifetime of emotional trauma. I think that with a first house Moon, squared by Venus, Nietzsche falls into this category.

As for the insanity, here is a man who was chronically ill almost all his life. He probably had a depleted immune system - maybe genetically..... and of course there's the possibility of his having syphillis, which, before modern drugs, could produce symptoms of madness. Short of having a postmortem, we just don't know.

But for the purposes of an astrologer seeking to notice problem areas before the fact, the opposition, major squares, inconjuncts give a lot of information.

ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT: Look at the transits of the MAJOR problematic planets as the person matures.... so for Nietzsche, look to Pluto, Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune transits for the couple of years before he died and you will see that major crisis was coming.

Why Neptune? That powerful trine to his Sun is, to me, NOT positive.... but a potential crisis because of the "idealistic" nature... the delusional nature of such a trine to begin with. NOw, without the oppositon from Pluto also to the Sun, that would not be true, at least not in the same way. But there WAS the opposition.

There is also what I feel is an inconjunct between Jupiter and the Sun, and combined with the oppositon to Mars, this is a major identity crisis lifetime, because the 4th house is ruled by Neptune. So as time passes, the person constantly comes up against disillusion after disillusion.....

And I never like to see such a strong moon in a man's chart.

He was doomed to seek the source of creation, as so many philosophers are, and like so many, find at the end more and more questions instead of answers.

I think we all have the answers we need within us. I don't know how many of us can have answers for other people.... I don't mean answers such as astrologers and therapists provide, I mean the really BIG answers - what force PUT me here??? What happens when my body dies? Is there a God?
If asking these big questions keeps you from having a "real life" (as in: 'get a life!) you can use up your whole life NOT living it, but seeking information no one can have.
At least this is my opinion.

I've seen so many people obsessed with one dimension of their life... focusing on one issue .... not living their lives fully or authentically. As an astrologer, I try to direct my clients to the road of living authentically, according to their chart, yes, but to the best polarity of their potentials.... and we all have choices there..... but first we need "consciousness". Nietzsche was hobbled by that Neptune trine Sun. I think he believed he would find the "big answers". Until he realized he wouldn't.
LIN
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Unread 06-15-2007, 10:28 PM
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spiritual, to Lin

Lin,

You said:
Quote:
That powerful trine to his Sun is, to me, NOT positive.... but a potential crisis because of the "idealistic" nature... the delusional nature of such a trine to begin with...Nietzsche was hobbled by that Neptune trine Sun.
I think the idea that Nietzsche's problems were all about a very easy connection (trine) between his spirituality (Neptune) and his Ego (Sun) doesn't make astrological sense. If there had been a square, conjuntion, or opposition of the Sun to Neptune, then things could get challenging, but the trine is a very gentle connection that helps the person very easily take the energy of the connecting planets. It is the oppositions that provide the challenges and eventual breakdowns if the person does not master their energies.

Energetically,

Tim
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Unread 06-16-2007, 09:31 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

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Unread 06-16-2007, 02:50 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

a psychopath by definition lacks the ability to have compassion. so if we who have compassion do not give it, does this not keep pyschopathic behavior alive? darkness does not exist where there is light. we need to strive to shine so bright that darkness will be cornered and snuffed out. i like to think that there is no anger in heaven no matter how harsh something may seem. and i definitely question channeled messages which verge on condemnation. maybe the condemnation comes from the person they use to channel the message, not the spirit source of the message. i find the majority of channeled messages come from a loving spirits to spirits who are strongly neutral. obviously, this is not to say lets cheer on murder. all lives are valuable. and how sweet it will be if someone(s) would shine on the darkness in a psychopath and change that soul for eternity. how many prison wardens are trained to be compassionate? they are trained to be tough and quite emotionless and have body and armor strength to protect themselves. aha!, is this what the Green Mile was about? i have only seen it once and was having a hard time following it so kind of skipped out on it.
Cheers!,
Rainbows
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Unread 06-16-2007, 03:27 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

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Unread 06-16-2007, 07:16 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

God is all over everywhere and does work through us. But the Light of God is only visible to people who see the Light instead of the darkness.
The entire world can be light, but if one person subscribes to darkness, darkness is what they will see and experience.
when we work on our own internal Light, we share this with every single person we cross paths with. if we subscribe to a prison type of life, a dark life, this is what we share with every single person we cross paths with. psychopaths are a sure rarity with wide notariety, often ostracized and live a hermit life style rarely sharing their dark selves with anyone, i call this heavenly protection, for the many. when a psychopath strikes, we need to check in with ourselves, not the killer.
~Rainbows
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Unread 06-17-2007, 02:29 PM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

Quote:
By Jag Thanks Shing Ray for the further analysis. you mentioned the Saturn Pluto square. you hit a very good point. i use Astrodienst chart, so you see a T-square Sun, Pluto with Saturn at the apex. i often consider a T-square typical indication for defense mechanisms, the planet at the apex could give indication as to the type. in this T-square, the conflict of Sun/Pluto could find its way out by Saturn, as you've mentioned in the previous post, his aquarius Saturn is extremely strong. you could imagine then what kind of defense mechanism Niestche's ego could "use" to fend off the anxiety of Sun/Pluto---by saturnian surpression. but mechanism defense is only a defense, the real problem of Sun/Pluto is always omnipresent, with a tight orb like his, there was not really too much marge to "relax". you make a lot of sense in speaking of the chronic depression and inferiority complex, i think that is what Saturn about in this chart.

Oh yes there is a t.square if the orb is slightly widened, and I believe the Saturn is strong in this chart as it is also at 0 degrees, which Tim has said in previous posts that planets at 0 degrees are planets which can have strong energy, plus as you have said it is at the apex of a t.square. I think underneath all the philosophy and thinking the intellectual defence, lies a deep depression all contained in this t.square you spotted in the chart. Below is an interpretation by Liz Greene for Saturn/Aquarius, I got this from the Lindaland forum. Not sure if you have Liz Greenes book on Saturn but here is the interpretation.

Saturn in Aquarius and the eleventh house

It has been said of Aquarius that everything may be seen in the shop window but nothing is to be found in the shop, and it is easy enough to draw this conclusion when confronted with the textbook descriptions of the sign and the association of the eleventh house with hopes and wishes, clubs, and societies. The immense depth and wisdom which are revealed by a study of astrology are not so apparent in this rather incomplete interpretation of the eleventh house and sign. With Saturn and Uranus as its rulers, Aquarius is perhaps entitled to a more complex meaning, and it is possible that the eleventh house is also more complicated and more abstruse than it is traditionally considered.

The tenth house is both the high point of achievement for the individual and his place of burial for it symbolises his deepest immersion in the material world and demands of him the sacrifices of his private and personal desires in order to obtain his goal. If the circle of the twelve houses is seen as a cycle of progressively more complex steps in the unfoldment of the individual's outer life, the tenth house, which belongs to Saturn, may be considered the end of the climb of the personality. In the remaining two houses, both of which are connected with "higher octave" planets and therefore with states of consciousness that are collective or transpersonal rather than personal in nature, the individual loses himself in the group and shoulders his responsibility as a cell in the larger body of humanity. His tests have been met, he has developed personal integration to the point where his mind, emotions, and body function as a disciplined and finely balanced tool to serve his inner purposes, and he is now free to join in the larger task of group integration and development. The passage from Saturn to Uranus marks the transition from the supremacy of the personal will to the development of group consciousness. Group consciousness is not mass consciousness for with the former the contribution is voluntary and the worth of the individual is not lost. This may appear to be a rather esoterically inclined interpretation of what is apparently a superficial house and sign. But if we are ever to make any sense of Saturn and his houses and signs from any viewpoint other than a fatalistic one, or are ever to understand the real nature and extent of the individual's free will and purpose, it is possible that in the esoteric tradition of Saturn some information may be found which helps us to lead freer lives.

People who are strongly Aquarian or Piscean in temperament, yet who have not yet developed a purpose which permits them participation in a larger expression, are often lost creatures, and it is perhaps more difficult for this kind of temperament now because the idea of group consciousness is not yet a reality. It is reasonably common to find the average Taurean personality concerned with his security for this is his natural outlet of expression—or for the average Libran to concern himself with his personal relationships, or the Geminian with his education. But the Aquarian and Piscean temperaments have no personal concerns. And if they are not yet sensitive to the more universal concerns which are the natural expression of these signs, they are left with no concerns at all. It is small wonder that so many alcoholics and drug addicts are strongly Piscean or Neptunian by temperament and that so many of the mentally ill must cope with Aquarian or Uranian energies. To balance this, it must be considered that we owe some of our greatest scientific and psychological discoveries to the Uranian type and some of our greatest poetry, music, and spiritual vision to the Neptunian. It is somewhat easier to understand the great potential and the great failure of these two types in light of the urge toward group involvement and contribution which motivates them both.

If we then look past the level of clubs and societies when considering the eleventh house and apply the idea of group consciousness and the nature of one's responsibility and contribution in this area as a possible additional meaning for this house, more insight may be gained into the meaning of Saturn's placement here. The more ordinary meaning of the eleventh house is often in evidence with its connotation of friendships and social acceptance, and Saturn in the eleventh may display his usual aloofness and isolation and thereby mark the individual as a "lone wolf', one who somehow does not fit into the group. He may find difficulty in making casual friendships and in functioning at the more superficial social level which, in our present society, is considered of such value. He may feel himself to be an outsider and will often behave as one, and his separateness is deeper than a mere inability to conform to popular standards of behaviour. The group which is presented to him as the "acceptable" one—those people whom he meets through family, business, religion, or interests—rarely receives him warmly, and he rarely feels himself to be a part of any artificially structured social unit. He is looking for another kind of group, a deeper group, but he rarely understands that the bounds which link this more abstruse group are of an inner, not an outer, nature.

Saturn is often painfully self-conscious and hopelessly inept at the social graces, but he is always the enemy of superficiality when he is expressing his true nature. His presence in the eleventh house is made doubly difficult because the nature of our present ideas about friendship and group activities can be eminently superficial. Saturn may often feel awkward and uncomfortable as he often indicates an introverted and shy tendency. Thus the usual effect of Saturn in the eleventh house is a deep, although often concealed, feeling of loneliness. He may want badly to feel himself a significant part of a larger whole, to be released from the burden of self-consciousness and "differentness". Yet he is often unable to express his need and will sometimes not even admit it to himself.

We consider man to be a gregarious animal, a communal creature rather than a solitary one, and the man who spends long periods alone or rejects the opportunity for social intercourse is somewhat suspect to the average individual. We are brought up to believe that there is something neurotic or unwholesome about aloneness, yet it is probably far more painful to carry the sense of separateness into a crowd than to be physically alone yet experience a sense of belonging. The man with Saturn in the eleventh house is often compulsively driven to be alone, and he may draw back from friendships because he is afraid he will not be accepted. It is frequently necessary for him to balance this fear and sense of inadequacy with a need to glamourise his uniqueness so that out of pride his separateness is demonstrated to be a virtue rather than a shortcoming. It is probably neither a virtue nor a lack, but the unconscious man with Saturn in the eleventh house is not aware that he has more choices than this. So one of the most typical reactions of an eleventh house Saturn may be demonstrated: he must be superior, he can have no equals. Just as Saturn in Leo finds it painfully difficult to express his uniqueness in an open way, Saturn in Aquarius often finds it painfully difficult to express his ordinariness, his similarity with every other human being—although it is this ordinariness, this blending with the group, which he desires the most. Saturn in the eleventh house is often interpreted as having few and faithful friends; and it is the quality, rather than the quantity, which is important.

Overcompensation is often expressed by this Saturnian placement, and it is common to find the individual who crams his life full of social activities so that he scarcely has time to be alone. He will
often fill his time so that he rarely needs to have personal confrontations, and it is often so important to him that he demonstrate his belonging that he will subdue his own individuality in order to cater to the standards and ideas of the group. So Saturn in the eleventh house may become a follower rather than the leader which he essentially needs to be. His own ideals, his wishes, and his dreams are worthless when compared to the final and inexorable word of the great They. Saturn in the eleventh house may sometimes symbolise this kind of social butterfly in the same way that Saturn in the third house may suggest a chatterer and Saturn in the seventh a perpetual Don Juan. But this butterfly often has wings of lead. He remains as essentially isolated and apart, as if he were alone, because inwardly he seeks a deeper and more meaningful sharing. But the work involved in achieving that deeper level of interchange would lead him into himself and into a search for a different set of social values as well as a deeper understanding of society itself and its purpose.

The opportunity which is offered by Saturn in the eleventh is not easily utilised without the kind of broad view of human oneness and gradual evolution and unfoldment which marks the truly progressive mind. This has little to do directly with political involvement although this area is a natural adjunct to the kind of vision which is often found in the Aquarian temperament. But Saturn has little to do with theories; he offers his wisdom through the more difficult but more meaningful channel of personal experience and realisation; and the understanding of the psychology of the group and the direction in which man's consciousness is slowly striving is an understanding which can be the inner illumination of the individual who has Saturn in Aquarius or in the eleventh house. Esoteric literature speaks repeatedly of "the Plan" for man, and this plan must remain in the realm of the theoretical and the visionary for the majority of people. To the discerning eye of an eleventh house Saturn, it is possible that the reality and nature of this plan may become visible if he seeks long enough and deeply enough the inner group which means so much to him.

If he permits his vision to be narrow, Saturn will rarely find the solution to his isolation, and we may then observe the fulfilment of the prophecy of hard luck through friends which is said to accompany this placement. For one who sets himself apart to such a degree, and who feels such mistrust of others is bound to attract something similar in return from his fellows. Like forever attracts like, and the bristly defensiveness which may often be seen in an eleventh house Saturn—even in those who have polished the surface of social charm until it shines but who cannot permit deeper friendships—usually attracts defensiveness back.

Each individual contains the potential of the higher or more universal meaning of the eleventh house to unfold along with the more personal. Few people are conscious of this potential because a more careful investigation of values and a more inclusive interest in humanity is generally a prerequisite for its unfoldment; however, the eleventh house is present on every birth chart, and the challenge of finding meaningful expression for the urges which are symbolised is present in every life. This becomes more urgent a task for the person who has Saturn in the eleventh house, or in Aquarius, because as with any other Saturnian position, second choice is not acceptable, and with this placement the sense of commitment to and participation in group life must be real.


Heres his North Node reading by Jan spiller. I found it interesting as his Achilles Heel is mental security. And in the end he lost his sanity the very thing he may have desperatly tried to cling to. For a man who must have valued his knowledge and wisdom, to lose his mental faculties, at the end of his life must have been soul destroying, but whether he could comprehend this or not is difficult to answer. Once your mind has gone and you have slipped into insanity I doubt if he could have understood what had happened to him.


North Node in Sagittarius and the 9th house

Attributes to develop – work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents:
Reliance on intuition, prophetic abilities, and invisible guidance
Speaking from Higher Consciousness
Spontaneity – developing a sense of freedom and adventure
Direct communication free from censorship
Trusting oneself
Spending time alone and in nature
Patience
Intuitive listening – hearing the meaning behind the words
Tendencies to leave behind – working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable:
Second-guessing what others are thinking
Indecisiveness
Perpetually seeking more information
Saying what others want to hear
Invalidating intuitive knowing with logic
Gossiping
Impatience – wanting immediate answers

Trusting others’ perceptions instead of one’s own – including others’ perceptions about oneself
Sagittarius North Node people’s Achilles’ heel is mental security ("If I can figure out what other people are thinking and then say the right thing so they’ll agree with my ideas, I will always feel secure"). This can lead them into the trap of an unending search for information ("If I can just get enough facts, I’ll be able to find the ‘truth’, and then I will know what to do"). But it’s a bottomless pit: they can never read people’s minds well enough to assure themselves that they will say the right thing. They need to let go of control and heed their own intuition. Trusting and acting from their own truth brings out their integrity, which will draw the right people to them to help them gain the security and peace of mind they seek.

The bottom line is that they will never have enough information to know what the ‘truth’ is. At some point Sagittarius North Node people simply have to go beyond logic to their intuition, and demonstrate what their higher truth is telling them. Ironically, when they have faith in their spiritual guidance, they will also gain a correct perception of what is occurring around them.

Last edited by Shining Ray; 06-17-2007 at 02:44 PM.
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Unread 06-18-2007, 08:51 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

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Unread 06-19-2007, 08:15 AM
mwright mwright is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagetoile
people don't get mad ovenight, like genius, madness are prediposed, aggravated by life environment and triggered by symbolic life scenes.
that truly is the recipe for all conditions and behaviors, both chronic and temporary.

it's all predispositions, aggravations, and triggers - nativities, progressions, and transits.

no matter how seriously we take ourselves, we are subject to the influence of an impartial, and very large universe.
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Unread 06-22-2007, 08:19 AM
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

The thing with psychopaths--they are soul-less. They HATE the light in people.

Even people with other (less severe) personality disorders for instance--their egos are shattered(NPD) or non-existent(BPD) from childhood trauma. From personal experience, working on myself and shining a light on them does no good. They are so wrapped up in their illnesses that it would truly take a miracle for them to "see the light" that I am sharing with them. There is nothing a well-intentioned person could say or do to change that. It's just a fact.

These people are destroyed. It happened to them as babies. If you're nice to them, they have contempt for you because they see kindness as weakness. They don't think like normal people.

I am on my path, working on myself to the best of my ability, facing my dark side, etc.. So, I for one will not "check in with myself" if a psychopath happens to kill someone.

As far as psychopaths being a rarity--I have read that as many as 4% to 5% of the population has pychopathic personality. That's not rare. I think that that amount is truly frightening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2rainbows
when we work on our own internal Light, we share this with every single person we cross paths with. if we subscribe to a prison type of life, a dark life, this is what we share with every single person we cross paths with. psychopaths are a sure rarity with wide notariety, often ostracized and live a hermit life style rarely sharing their dark selves with anyone, i call this heavenly protection, for the many. when a psychopath strikes, we need to check in with ourselves, not the killer.
~Rainbows
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  #17  
Unread 06-22-2007, 01:15 PM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: Some Thoughts On Nietzsche's Chart

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  #18  
Unread 06-22-2007, 05:41 PM
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Re: Some Thoughts On Nietzsche's Chart

Hi Jag,

I understand what you are saying about the ego and BPD. I guess what I meant (but did not type) is that the ego APPEARS to be non-existent. But as you say, it's most likely there (somewhere), however minimal.

Pixiequix has a good point about Neptune/Saturn reflecting a nihilist world view. Of course not everyone with the conjunction holds such a view, but in his chart it would seem to point to it.

I also don't believe a Neptune trine to Sun would have much influence. And I've never thought about the 5th/11th axis' as a classic struggle between ego and will. That's interesting.

As I too, have Sun opposite Pluto (but from the 6th/12th and no T-square) and Sun trine Neptune as well, I have been following this thread closely!

I do think Pluto represents "will". In my case with Pluto in the 12th, it seems I have been surrounded by extremely willfull people in this lifetime (family) and have just recently come into my own--finding my own power (thanks to transiting Pluto forming a T-square to my natal Sun/Pluto opposition).

The family members I mention all have Pluto contacts--one has Pluto conjunct her moon, another Mars conjunct her Sun both opposing Pluto, and another Pluto conjunct his Mars. Of course there are other factors in their charts which factor in---but they are extremely willfull (and also have NPD).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jagetoile
hello pixiequix, thanks for joining in. i would like to hear about the "classic struggle between Ego and Will" aspect if you could elaborate .do you think "will" is represented by Pluto in a chart?

Mwright, i agree. the simple truth that you've mentioned is not easy for people to understand sometimes though.

allie b, you hit the point. but i don't quite agree about "the BPD has no-existent ego" even though it is almost so. i prefer to say that their ego are not well formed, i do think that there is an "ego" for everyone, however damaged or minimal it is---in each chart, there are Sun and moon however they are afflicted.

best, Jag
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  #19  
Unread 06-22-2007, 08:06 PM
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allie_b allie_b is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

My husband has Mercury in 11th opposite Saturn in the 5th. Curious to know what this means, if anyone may have some more insight on this axis.

As far as Pluto opposite Sun: I realize that we are singling out one aspect and dealing with generalizations only, but from my experience (having this aspect), I personally have not expressed my frustrations through negative attention seeking behavior (I'm thinking that I may have attracted people to me with this behavior).

My Pluto is in the 12th (along with Uranus and Jupiter), so it seems I turned inward and actually was loathe to be the center of attention, negative or positive; just didn't want any of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiequix
Perhaps it would be useful to elongate when deeming something to be "classic".

It was Barbara Hand Clow who refers to the 5-11 axis as the axis of Will. With my own Sun - Saturn opposition across that axis, I felt it was a particularly appropriate title. I believe what the description refers to is the opposing natures that are available for expression across that house axis; in the 11th we deal with hopes and dreams, but in the 5th we rely upon our creative ability to actually make things manifest.

The Ego comes in with the Pluto - Sun opposition taking place across the 5-11 axis in Nietzsche's chart. When Pluto is opposing the Sun there's a discordant sense of inner power, the childhood Ego hasn't learned how to properly tap into its own vitality. Without an understanding of how to properly satisfy the needs of the Ego, people with hard aspects between the Sun and Pluto can sometimes display the resulting frustration through negative attention seeking behavior.

So, from my perspective this all pointed to a struggle between Ego and Will.
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Unread 06-23-2007, 02:10 AM
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allie_b allie_b is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

Oh, I don't have Pluto conjuncting Uranus and Jupiter. Sorry if I typed that (mercury IS retrograde, after all!).

All three planets reside in the 12th, and all oppose the Sun...but Pluto is about 8 degrees from Jupiter and 9 degrees from Uranus, so I wouldn't consider them conjunct. Would you?

As far as childish behavior...I have always been uber responsible. My parents have projected many things onto me, such as not being responsible, possibly because I'm the youngest. My siblings who see me clearly would say otherwise. This maturity and responsible attitude, I attribute to my Saturn conjunct Venus, though.

I can't see how having powerful, willfull people around you or having an inablility to express personal power because of this, would then translate into childish behavior. Not sure about that. I'm thinking that it would express itself in the form of becoming a doormat or rebelliousness (acting out), perhaps.

An astrologer once told me that with this Pluto/Sun aspect, my father (sun) must have been a brute, bully, or somehow abusive. Has anyone read this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiequix
Well, I was specifically referring to the Sun - Pluto aspect. For you personally, with the presence of Jupiter and Uranus both conjuncting Pluto, it would combine all three planets into a single expression, and this significantly changes the way that particular opposition might turn up in your life.

The Sun opposing Pluto represents a lack of understanding in how to effectively express personal power. All Pluto - Sun aspects combine the two very potent factors of Ego and Power. And when you combine those two things, esp. when you're dealing with damage to the childhood Ego, the capacity for childish behavior exists more than it normally would. But like I said, when combining two other planets into the mix, its a whole different ballgame.
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  #21  
Unread 06-23-2007, 03:01 AM
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allie_b allie_b is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

You've hit the nail on the head, I do believe!

My therapist told me that I was/am a parentified child. With both parents being NPD, their needs/wants came first. Thusly, I was left to take care of myself (emotionally speaking, since the parents did do the usual parental caretaking duties such as putting a band-aid on a cut), while also helping out my parents (my next oldest sibling was like this as well, while the oldest sibling became an NPD like my parents).

I do believe without my next oldest sibling(sister,14 months older), I would have had some sort of ego destruction occur, for sure. We both have our issues, of course but we do not have personality disorders. We both have suffered from periods of depression. But for me they were usually situational, not major depressive episodes. I do believe that I am blessed (Jupiter in the 12th?), like an angel watching out for me, that I was not destroyed.

Thanks for the link. Haven't looked at it yet.

I can't seem to post my chart. How does one do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiequix
Well, there you go my dear. Your experience of what I've been describing is illustrated in your absence of the ability to be childish, and being burdened by expectations of adult behavior as a child. (But this is entirely speculation, I can't say anything with certainty without first seeing your chart)

The 12th house often contorts, limits, and restricts. The compensation for any losses suffered at the level of the personality is compensated at the soul or immaterial level. Read this artcle for more of an explanation about the compensation available to people with natal 12th house placements.



Take care.
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  #22  
Unread 06-25-2007, 10:57 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

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  #23  
Unread 02-14-2009, 05:02 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

I have a queation regarding mental health and the Ego.

How can you tell if someone has a weak ego? I have looked up what the proper definition. In wikipedia in wikipedi. Source:


The Ego acts according to the reality principle; i.e. it seeks to please the ids drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bringing grief.



"The ego is not sharply separated from the id; its lower portion merges into it.... But the repressed merges into the id as well, and is merely a part of it. The repressed is only cut off sharply from the ego by the resistances of repression; it can communicate with the ego through the id." (Sigmund Freud, 1923) The Ego comprises that organized part of the personality structure which includes defensive, perceptual, intellectual-cognitive, and executive functions. Conscious awareness resides in the ego, although not all of the operations of the ego are conscious. The ego separates what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.

According to Freud,

...The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world ... The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces [Freud, The Ego and the Id (1923)]

In Freud's theory, the ego mediates among the id, the super-ego and the external world. Its task is to find a balance between primitive drives and reality (the Ego devoid of morality at this level) while satisfying the id and super-ego. Its main concern is with the individual's safety and allows some of the id's desires to be expressed, but only when consequences of these actions are marginal. Ego defense mechanisms are often used by the ego when id behavior conflicts with reality and either society's morals, norms, and taboos or the individual's expectations as a result of the internalization of these morals, norms, and their taboos. The word ego is taken directly from Latin, where it is the nominative of the first person singular personal pronoun and is translated as "I myself" to express emphasis. The Latin term ego is used in English to translate Freud's German term Das Ich, which literally means "the I".

Ego development is known as the development of multiple processes, cognitive function, defenses, and interpersonal skills or to early adolescence when ego processes are emerged. In modern-day society, ego has many meanings. It could mean ones self-esteem; an inflated sense of self-worth; or in philosophical terms, ones self. However, according to Freud, the ego is the part of the mind which contains the consciousness. Originally, Freud had associated the word ego to meaning a sense of self; however, he later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality-testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory. In a diagram of the Structural and Topographical Models of Mind, the ego is depicted to be half in the consciousness, while a quarter is in the preconscious and the other quarter lies in the unconscious.

The ego is the mediator between the id and the super-ego, trying to ensure that the needs of both the id and the super-ego are satisfied. It is said to operate on a reality principle, meaning it deals with the id and the super-ego; allowing them to express their desires, drives and morals in realistic and socially appropriate ways. It is said that the ego stands for reason and caution, developing with age. Sigmund Freud had used an analogy which likened the ego to a rider and a horse; the ego being the rider while the id being the horse. The horse provides the energy and the means of obtaining the energy and information needed, while the rider ultimately controls the direction it wants to go. However, due to unfavorable conditions, sometimes the horse makes its own decisions over the rocky terrain.

When the ego is personified, it is like a slave to three harsh masters: the id, the super-ego and the external world. It has to do its best to suit all three, thus is constantly feeling hemmed by the danger of causing discontent on two other sides. It is said, however, that the ego seems to be more loyal to the id, preferring to gloss over the finer details of reality to minimize conflicts while pretending to have a regard for reality. But the super-ego is constantly watching every one of the ego's moves and punishes it with feelings of guilt, anxiety, and inferiority. To overcome this the ego employs defense mechanisms.The defense mechanisms are not done so directly or consciously. They lessen the tension by covering up our impulses that are threatening.

Denial, displacement, intellectualisation, fantasy, compensation, projection, rationalisation, reaction formation, regression, repression and sublimation were the defense mechanisms Freud identified. However, his daughter Anna Freud clarified and identified the concepts of undoing, suppression, dissociation, idealisation, identification, introjection, inversion, somatisation, splitting and substitution.
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  #24  
Unread 02-14-2009, 05:16 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: mental health and the "ego"

I have noticed Sun trine Jupiter in about 2 charts where the people could be described as mentally ill. Another chart was a firey trine of Sun in Sagittarius trine Mars in Leo, no other hard aspects to the Sun in this case. Where they lost control of the rational. Would this normally self enhancing aspect produce this sort of affect, the naturally self confident, (even self inflated personality). One case had Sun in trine to Jupiter, but also Sun square Saturn. This man thought he was talking to god, and acting on his wishes etc. but underneath the self inflation of Sun-Jupiter lies the deep inferiority issues of sun-saturn. Have others found this to be the case. Is the Sun the ego function, would we look here for this information?

Would these sort of aspects relate to a weak ego.

Last edited by Shining Ray; 02-14-2009 at 05:19 AM.
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