Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Unread 10-01-2018, 01:49 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,344
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


That means there are hundreds of people born at the same time as Gacy

who may be wicked, with strange minds!
perhaps "born at same time" but in different locations
with different ascendants
so
planets located differently in houses
different PoF and so on and so forth
ad infinitum
Q.E.D.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Unread 10-01-2018, 02:55 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
perhaps "born at same time" but in different locations
with different ascendants
so
planets located differently in houses
different PoF and so on and so forth
ad infinitum
Q.E.D.
Impressive! Any way to know what ayanamsa was used by the Tradionalist?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Unread 10-01-2018, 06:15 PM
miquar's Avatar
miquar miquar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North West England
Posts: 3,218
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Someone else used to use that stuff in his signiature. When people use it I think they are grasping at straws. For it to constitute a strong argument you'd have to find all the people with a similar chart and see how they all turned out; and you'd have to look at his sidereal chart to see if that had 'psycho' written across it (and if it did you'd be in a worse place, because what about all tbe 'good' people born around the same time and place - and of course such charts are less distinct using Whole Sign houses).

I don't know why so many siderealists campaign against tropical astrology the way they do. Tropicalists seem to just get on with it (with a few exceptions) and let Sidearalists do the same. As far as I'm concerned there can be more than one way to locate a zodiac along the ecliptic. Perhaps Siderealists have 'Aries node envy' because they don't have something like the vernal point to define 0 degrees Aries.

Best wishes

Miquar
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Unread 10-01-2018, 06:41 PM
Oddity's Avatar
Oddity Oddity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,982
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

It is useful to read a thread before asking questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi. I hadn't much idea of what postmodernism is so I looked into it a bit. I can't see Rudhyar could be described as such. Sure, he was radical and felt that civilisation needs an overhaul, but he didn't claim that individuality is threatened by collectivity per se - but that true individuality and true collectivity unfold in tandem. He warns against ego-led rebellion against social participation.

Oddity, how do you see that?

Best wishes

Miquar
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oddity For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-03-2018)
  #55  
Unread 10-01-2018, 07:28 PM
miquar's Avatar
miquar miquar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North West England
Posts: 3,218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
It is useful to read a thread before asking questions.
What are you talking about? If you don't feel willing or able to respond to my questions, just say so.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Unread 10-01-2018, 07:44 PM
Oddity's Avatar
Oddity Oddity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,982
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
What are you talking about? If you don't feel willing or able to respond to my questions, just say so.
It means someone else already asked me that question and I answered it earlier in the thread - if you could be bothered to read.

Why do you require a personal, separate answer that will be the same thing I already typed?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oddity For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-01-2018)
  #57  
Unread 10-01-2018, 07:48 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Rudhyar appears to have been solution-oriented rather than fate-oriented.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Unread 10-01-2018, 08:14 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Jung says that as long as something is unconcious it appears to be fate.

The main thrust of the Eastern religions is to bring one into the light of consciousness; when this is accomplished, freedom (from fate) is gained.

Mark Twain said that the best place a man can be is Solitary Confinement (12th house) because then he is free to go anywhere he desires.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-01-2018 at 08:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to greybeard For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-01-2018)
  #59  
Unread 10-01-2018, 08:37 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Most people, while strolling through the 12th house, would probably not send a postcard saying "Having a wonderful time."

It is after you emerge, with time and hindsight, that you may recognize the good.
You don't "stroll through" Areas of Life, and then leave them behind. You live in them. Apparently, H12 isn't everyone's favorite Area! But, we all have to deal with it, and some are apparently better at that than others.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:35 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,344
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post

You don't "stroll through" Areas of Life, and then leave them behind.
You live in them.
Apparently, H12 isn't everyone's favorite Area!
But, we all have to deal with it, and some are apparently better at that
than others.
So CIRCUMNAMBULATIONS are unknown to you
Dorotheus used a method
he called "circumambulations through the bounds"
which used oblique ascensions.

Circumambulation through the bounds/confines
according to Ptolemy and Dorotheus
is similar to primary directions
but the ancients used these procedures
as a way of defining the general periods of life.
Circumambulations figure prominantly
in many of the procedures for determining length of life.
http://www.projecthindsight.com/prod...hicoracle.html
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:45 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,277
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Well, to each her own.

Rudhyar was a kind of second or third generation theosophist, which in today's terms is more akin to evolutionary astrology. If you Google theosophy and the Golden Dawn you'll get the idea. If you believe in the Perfectability of Man [sic] by intuiting all kinds of mystical stuff by-the-numbers, then maybe Rudhyar is for you. If you're totally into Christ-consciousness or Buddha-consciousness as these might be shoe-horned into houses, signs and planets; then maybe Rudhyar will appeal to you.

It was noted on another thread that when modern astrology emerged ca 1900 there were laws in Britain and in the US against fortune-telling. Astrologers Alan Leo and Evangeline Adams both ran afoul of the law. Understandably astrology of personality and spirituality was on safer ground. But also preferred by the theosophists.

I found Rudhyar very appealing once. I got into astrology during a real crisis of confidence, and began questioning why I-- as this unique individual-- was on the planet. Rudhar has some spiritual guidance.

But when I got on-line in 2007 and began reading horoscopes for people, I found his books to be worth a lot less. People want to know about the practical problems of their daily lives: relationships, jobs, money, &c. They're not so interested in some kind of Illumined Way.

I also found that Rudhyar's notion that the goal of enlightened men was to rise above Nature (encoded as feminine) to be unappealing. Yes, he wrote most of his stuff before today's environmental crises were well known, but to me, that just makes him dated.

I don't see Rudhyar as a post-modernist. In many ways, his project was very modern: using humanistic psychology in service of the Perfectability of Man.

I don't see Rudhyar as post-structuralist. The horoscope is precisely a kind of deep structure.

Linguistic? Possibly, but I doubt it. Rudhyar's work is more like a lot of early/mid-20th century narratives about the nature of humanity, namely men. Some of these just don't hold up to factual evidence today. In Rudhyar's time, Social Darwinism argued that some humans (notably elite white guys) had an advanced potential unavailable to the unwashed masses.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:46 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

So, after H12, it's back to "where it all began" in HI? Even so, you're still stuck with the Houses as they are in your birth-Chart , for better or for worse.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:48 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

I "walked through" chilhood, then left it behind. True, I carry it with me still. But I can never return, so I guess that, allowing for some literary license, I walked through it.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:54 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,277
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
The coursebook is online, it was written down by Saussure's students, and eventually translated to English: https://monoskop.org/images/0/0b/Sau...stics_1959.pdf

I think you'll find some astrological common ground with signifiers and signifieds.
Oddity, it's fair enough in astrology to talk about signifiers (cf. astrological significators) and what they signify. (Cf. the planetary ruler of the first house and what it means when it's in the 12th house.)

I have argued strongly on this site and others that a horoscope is a specialized kind of graphic language.

I just don't see Rudhyar taking this material and running with it. Where in his texts would you see it?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:57 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,277
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Rudhyar appears to have been solution-oriented rather than fate-oriented.
David, have you read his stuff? I would put him more in the "free will" camp, though this isn't a term I particularly like. Think about today's evolutionary astrologers.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Unread 10-01-2018, 09:59 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I "walked through" chilhood, then left it behind. True, I carry it with me still. But I can never return, so I guess that, allowing for some literary license, I walked through it.
So, you see the Houses as STAGES of Life. In that sense, I understand what you're saying.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Unread 10-01-2018, 10:03 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

All in the same day...

I get up, shower, have breakfast (4th house)
Drive to work (3rd house)
Work (6th house)
Go to the bank (2nd)
Kiss my wife (7th)
Read Dane Rudhyar (9th) ...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to greybeard For This Useful Post:
AppLeo (10-01-2018)
  #68  
Unread 10-01-2018, 10:17 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
David, have you read his stuff? I would put him more in the "free will" camp, though this isn't a term I particularly like. Think about today's evolutionary astrologers.
I get very uncomfortable reading the "Authorities", although they usually have some good insights. So much is coming from their own, personal viewing-angle. I read something The Great Dane wrote about the 12th House that sounded like he believed you can "take the lemons and make lemonade".
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Unread 10-01-2018, 10:20 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
All in the same day...

I get up, shower, have breakfast (4th house)
Drive to work (3rd house)
Work (6th house)
Go to the bank (2nd)
Kiss my wife (7th)
Read Dane Rudhyar (9th) ...
Imagine that! (12th)
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Unread 10-01-2018, 10:35 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

They're interconnected: You wouldn't have money in the bank of you didn't work, you wouldn't have a place to shower and shave if you didn't have money, and you can study philosophy there, as well. It's about what Area your energy is focused on at any given time. You sound capable of very intense focus!
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Unread 10-02-2018, 03:13 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Much of what Rudhyar says, although it may be true, is often expressed in a rather other-worldly sort of way...probably in reaction to the very worldly astrology that preceded him. His adherents, possibly lacking his vision, responded with one-sided excess. And so we got the rather wishy-washy "humanist" astrology that says "The stars impel but do not compel."
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Unread 10-02-2018, 03:17 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Much of what Rudhyar says, although it may be true, is often expressed in a rather other-worldly sort of way...probably in reaction to the very worldly astrology that preceded him. His adherents, possibly lacking his vision, responded with one-sided excess. And so we got the rather wishy-washy "humanist" astrology that says "The stars impel but do not compel."
That WOULD explain why 2 people with virtually the same Chart would behave differently.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Unread 10-02-2018, 03:28 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
That WOULD explain why 2 people with virtually the same Chart would behave differently.
You can't have the exact same chart for two nativities.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-03-2018)
  #74  
Unread 10-02-2018, 03:29 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
You can't have the exact same chart for two nativities.
It's theoretically possible.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Unread 10-02-2018, 03:30 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Thoughts on Dane Rudhyar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
It's theoretically possible.
Perhaps, but it will still be impossible to be born in the same space, thus invalidating your sophistic objection to fate.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-03-2018)
Reply

Tags
dane, rudhyar, things, thoughts

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.