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  #51  
Unread 06-08-2018, 05:24 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

I actually don't envy the super-wealthy. Capitalism NEEDS them in order to function properly. Never wanted to be one though. We also need a strong middle-class. And, a less wealthy labor-pool in order to get things done. In my line of work (landscaping) it's the millionaires and the middle -class that hire me. But substantially income-taxing the HIGHEST brackets is also necessary for the economy as a whole. The middle-class should hardly be income-taxed at all. Everyone, the poor included, pay local taxes on property and/or consumer goods. In the U.S. in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, we had VERY high upper-bracket taxation, and a booming economy (albeit with an occasional but mild recession), a functional social-safety-net and a relatively low National Debt. Corporate-taxes were high as well. Then, suddenly, "Greed Was Good", and we ended up where we are now.

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  #52  
Unread 06-08-2018, 05:42 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I actually don't envy the super-wealthy. Capitalism NEEDS them in order to function properly. Never wanted to be one though. We also need a strong middle-class. And, a less wealthy labor-pool in order to get things done. In my line of work (landscaping) it's the millionaires and the middle -class that hire me. But substantially income-taxing the HIGHEST brackets is also necessary for the economy as a whole. The middle-class should hardly be income-taxed at all. Everyone, the poor included, pay local taxes on property and/or consumer goods. In the U.S. in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, we had VERY high upper-bracket taxation, and a booming economy (albeit with an occasional but mild recession), a functional social-safety-net and a relatively low National Debt. Corporate-taxes were high as well. Then, suddenly, "Greed Was Good", and we ended up where we are now.

There are a number of taxes that are charged on every citizen to mantain large goverment. But here is a point we can agree:


You are charged an income tax. Ok so you have to give part of your salary to the goverment. But then they also charge you a sales tax on every item you purchase with that money you earn, money which was already previously tax. And then, for some of those items that you purchase with that money which was already taxed when you earned it and which was taxed again at the purchase, you have to pay an annual tax to keep the item you purchased.



Now the problem with socialism is that, their solution si to keep a large goverment and only tax the rich.

How about small goverment, cutting spending, and allowing people to keep their money and save/invest it the way they prefer?

Some taxes are needed, because we do need some things from goverment. But some taxations are crazy.
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  #53  
Unread 06-08-2018, 08:36 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
There are a number of taxes that are charged on every citizen to mantain large goverment. But here is a point we can agree:


You are charged an income tax. Ok so you have to give part of your salary to the goverment. But then they also charge you a sales tax on every item you purchase with that money you earn, money which was already previously tax. And then, for some of those items that you purchase with that money which was already taxed when you earned it and which was taxed again at the purchase, you have to pay an annual tax to keep the item you purchased.



Now the problem with socialism is that, their solution si to keep a large goverment and only tax the rich.

How about small goverment, cutting spending, and allowing people to keep their money and save/invest it the way they prefer?

Some taxes are needed, because we do need some things from goverment. But some taxations are crazy.
We currently have Corporate-Capitalism, and a Supreme Court that has actually equated Corporations, which the Founding Fathers warned us about, with individual persons! This is the version of Capitalism that has devoured all the other versions, and is now the only fish left in the tank. I can't see any effective competition from any other form of Capitalism in the here and now.
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  #54  
Unread 06-08-2018, 09:41 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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As a person that lives in the third world, and that has studied how local politics affect the region, I can testify that everything you just said is false. And I will explain to you why:

The problems in south america are 100% big goverment. We pay huge taxes here, personal liberties are reduced (despite the fact we live in democratic nations), economic growth is stumped, and an outrageous miss-management of funds leads to heavy inflation.

The idea that "the great powers" steal our resources is hilarious and dumb. Nearly all the resources have been under control of the national goverments, and nearly all the companies run by the goverment are miss-managed and have a net loss. We actually hope every year that economic conditions improve so your companies can come into south america, invest capital and create jobs, so people can earn a living. In fact, when the goverments sell the resources to private capital (whether foreign or national), production usually increases and the prices of those products gets lower, the economy grows and people end up having more jobs.

I can go into details and give you a 25 page explanation of the economic problems in my country, and by extension in other countries if you want.
--

You like to assume that third world countries are beautiful paradises, until the big and bad Euro-Americans come and trash the place, enslave the population and take all the resources which is just a dumb belief. Most third world country economies encourage foreign capital to invest in the country. In fact those that do, see their economies and standards of living increasing.
You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo

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Cap you are clearly willing to use physical force, which leads to death, to impose your system. So you have no problem in harming others in the name of your "revolution".
I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.
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  #55  
Unread 06-08-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cap View Post
You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo



I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.
Ooh, Mars in Scorpio! Versus....Dirius, where's your Mars? I'm guessing Leo or Virgo.
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  #56  
Unread 06-08-2018, 10:31 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
There's a fun anecdote about Ernest Hemingway and F.Scott Fitzgerald concerning wealthy people. Fitzgerald was in awe of them, and said "The rich are DIFFERENT you know." To which Hemingway replied, "Yeah, they've got more money!"
Calvinism equates having great wealth with being in God's favor. That's the Capitalistic equivalent of Feudalism's concept of the Divine Right of royalty.
the late Herb Caen , a Pulitzer prize winning columnist for the san Francisco chronicle last century
https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=he...p=mss&ei=UTF-8
had a modern take on this legendary anecdote.

"the rich are different you know"
"yeah, they have better dope"

he wrote this is a column some months before the cia drug hits on mayor moscone(Italian mafia head)and supervisor Harvey milk(gay mafia head) in 1978

rahu
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  #57  
Unread 06-08-2018, 10:40 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Here's something to consider: Nuclear Fusion plants, coming on line by about 2040. That will mark the end of the Fossil-fuel dominance that's the current cause of global conflict. The economic impact will be enormous, and how well it's handled will determine whether Capitalism is fit to survive.
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  #58  
Unread 06-09-2018, 04:34 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

BAHAHA this thread.

Cap, you've honestly have got to be kidding me. Your Marxist's beliefs shall perish before me. For I am the voice of reason. The voice that fights for capitalism! <3

First of all... people who don't like capitalism don't like freedom. That's literally what they're saying. They don't want people to be free. They want people to be like animals.

Capitalism, is essentially, individuals freely trading with one another.

It's individuals freely trading with one another.

It's individuals FREELY trading with one another.

Can we agree on that please?? Thanks.

If I have something that you want, and you have something that I want, we must VOLUNTARILY agree to trade with each other.

The reason why we have private property and have ownership is so that trading can be made possible. How do you make a trade if everyone owns everything? And if everyone owns everything, how do we decide who gets to have what? Cuz material resources are finite.

When you work at a minimum wage job, you are trading your time and labor in exchange for money. If you don't like it, then quit your job. Start your own business and hire people to work for you.

The world doesn't owe you anything. If you want something, you have to give something first. If want a lot of something, then you have to give a lot.

People who make good trades are capitalists. Why? People they mass produce something that people are willing to trade them for. The more people that trade with them, the richer they get. They build wealth, they invest, and they become even more rich.

People who fail to make good trades are punished for it. Working a minimum wage job your entire life is stupid trade. Freedom comes with a price. You are responsible for your own actions.

So the only people who have a problem with capitalism, are people who don't like freedom. And people who don't like freedom, are people who make bad choices. People who make bad choices want other people to take care of them for their bad choices. And people who want others to take care of them are either children, ultra lazy, parasites, Democrats, Communists, Leftists, SJW's, and Marxists.

The world can't go on if everyone isn't responsible for their actions.

Let me repeat.

The world can't go on if everyone isn't responsible for their OWN actions.

I'm responsible for myself. You are responsible for yourself. That person is responsible for themselves.

We can't have more people riding in the wagon than there are pulling it.
We can't have more people sitting on their asses then there people doing work.
We can't have reward the diseased, the imperfect, the unproductive, and the victimized, while punishing the healthy, perfect, productive, and responsible.

We can't have more people taking the wealth than there are people producing the wealth.

Capitalism is true justice and fairness.
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  #59  
Unread 06-09-2018, 05:15 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

I think it's so funny when Marxists say that capitalism has failed... Like omg, you need to stop and look around for a second.

Like when when you say that you think capitalism is a destructive force, this the analogy that comes to my mind:

The Sun has failed to warm the Earth properly because you could overheat in the desert, or freeze to death in the poles, or get sunburned if you're outside too long.

The Sun isn't perfect at warming the Earth.

Therefore, we must obliterate the Sun and replace it with our own made-up Sun that we're somehow going to create?

Because we have Scientists, or an all powerful leader that claims to know how to replace the Sun.

Oh, and we already tried it 100 years ago, but we're just gonna do it again anyway...

I mean if you wanna destroy the Sun, you probably could because people are easily persuaded by the dream, but I can guarantee, the new Sun we create will be a HELL of a lot worse than the imperfect Sun we have now.

Capitalism probably suks because there's inequality, and that people are exploited, and that we are constantly bombarded with advertisements.... but I'd much rather live with those things, than the alternative. The alternative is literally hell on Earth. People starve to death and die.

ALSO, even if the alternative did work, it's still immoral. Because the people that work the hardest and smartest won't be entitled to the sweat of their brow. Everyone would be living off of them.
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  #60  
Unread 06-09-2018, 05:22 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Like, if you somehow managed to destroy capitalism, what would you replace it with?

I'd seriously like to know.

Who's gonna control the means of production? Who's gonna control the wealth? How will it be distributed? And how is it going to be fair and just?

I mean if you say that you wanna replace it with Venus Project...
The Venus Project sounds like Stalin's Five Year Plan and we all know how that ended...
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Last edited by AppLeo; 06-09-2018 at 05:25 AM.
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  #61  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:52 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

AppLeo, you're not allowed on this thread!
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  #62  
Unread 06-09-2018, 09:58 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Welcome Appleo!

Just a few quick remarks for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post

First of all... people who don't like capitalism don't like freedom.

Capitalism, is essentially, individuals freely trading with one another.
Quite the opposite! I don't like capitalism because I love freedom.

Markets and trade have existed long before capitalism. What was new and specific for capitalism was employer - employee relationship. And this is nothing but a modified slavery.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
If I have something that you want, and you have something that I want, we must VOLUNTARILY agree to trade with each other.
According to latest statistics 85% of people on this planet hate their jobs. It can hardly be said that they happily and voluntarily go to work every day.

https://returntonow.net/2017/09/22/8...lup-poll-says/

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
The reason why we have private property and have ownership is so that trading can be made possible. How do you make a trade if everyone owns everything? And if everyone owns everything, how do we decide who gets to have what? Cuz material resources are finite.
Yes, the idea of moneyless economy is to abolish trade. Trade as an indicator of demand is no longer necessary, nor it is necessary to have some socialist centralized planned economy. In our modern times of internet and iphones we, as a society, can know exact demand at any given moment, with a precision down to a single potato.

There's plenty of resources, if managed intelligently, for everyone on this planet to have extremely high standard of living, much higher than average American today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
When you work at a minimum wage job, you are trading your time and labor in exchange for money. If you don't like it, then quit your job. Start your own business and hire people to work for you.
If we all start our own business, 99,99% of businesses will fail and there will be no one left to work. The nature of the system is such that only a tiny group of people can be successful, everyone else must fail. That's reflected in wealth disparity reports.

If we all, as a society, own automated production then we are all slave owners and machines are our slaves. All people win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Like when when you say that you think capitalism is a destructive force...
Just wait until 2040 when there will be no fish left in the oceans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Capitalism probably ***** because there's inequality, and that people are exploited, and that we are constantly bombarded with advertisements....
I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
ALSO, even if the alternative did work, it's still immoral. Because the people that work the hardest and smartest won't be entitled to the sweat of their brow. Everyone would be living off of them.
That's why only just alternative society would be automated society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Like, if you somehow managed to destroy capitalism, what would you replace it with?

I'd seriously like to know.
That's why it is imperative for all people to sit down and discuss the best course of action. I'm sure humanity will find excellent solutions if they really put an effort to it.

Last edited by Cap; 06-09-2018 at 02:41 PM.
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  #63  
Unread 06-09-2018, 10:02 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap View Post
You're not the only third world country. I was talking mostly about European 19th century imperialism and USA's 20th century imperialism.

Super fast crash course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alJaltUmrGo

I was just exposing your double standard when it comes to use of physical force. Exploitation is form of violence, too.

Don't worry, I don't think that mobs you are going to experience in coming years will be politically motivated. Most likely they will just be hungry. Since governments will be poor (especially when billionaires decide they don't want to pay taxes any more), there will be no law enforcement. But this probably won't be a problem for you since you are successful in this system and you will easily pay your private army to protect you and your loved ones from mobs, gangs and your fellow rich man's armies. Everything will be private, truly a libertarian heaven, I think you'll enjoy it.
Colonialism failed as an economic system, because the "mother nation" would impose restrictions to the colonies for trading with other countries, and they would impose a heavy taxation to colonialist merchants which would stump their capacity for growth. This does not constitute a free market economy, and thus it is not capitalism. The actual name for this system is mercantilism.

The U.S. was one of these many colonies. And the american revolution happened because of these reasons: heavy taxation on goods, restrictions for trade (closing of ports) and a general intervention of the royal goverment into local colonian administrations. The american's suffered exactly the same restrictions Africa, South America and Asia did. However they managed to get their independance, and South America soon followed them. If you check the economic statiscs of Both northern and southern american countries during the 19th century and early 20th century, both continents had a rapid economic expansions and good standards of living.

What we have today in the west is, in reality, closer to mercantilism, because national goverment's have a rather heavy intervention in the economy, and a strong say in its direction; with the biggest diference being that they prefer a balance between enterprise and worker. This is not what classical liberals (today called libertarians) want. This is not capitalism.

We are not in favour of goverment bailouts.
We are not in favour of protectionist policies.
We are not in favour of lobbying politicians.
We support the creation of worker's unions (if workers join it freely and are granted no priviliges by goverment)
We support suing your employer for wrongful termination.
We support consumers taking companies to court for damages.

Low taxation for everyone means more money for workers, to save or invest in themselves. It means more money for entrepeneurs to invest in business which will produce more jobs.

You call this "explotation", of what? I want you to earn more. If you have a job you pay as a minimum 10% of your salary as income tax, 15% on everything you buy on a sales tax, and a different amount of taxes that range from 2%-10% or much more, so on the very least around 40% of the total money you make as a worker is taken away from you by the goverment. And, because businesses are also being taxed, they sell at higher prices, so you are paying at least 20% more in prices on everything you buy.

So in reality the amount of money the goverment takes from you is at least 50% of your income!
Who is exploiting you in reality Cap? the rich guy or the politician in washington?

What we have today is a big goverment that benefits the rich. What you want is a big goverment that benefits the poor. What I want is goverment that doesn't get in the way of anyone, neither rich nor poor. We are the children of Adam Smith. We are on the side of freedom.

On the other hand, what you are pushing is for more goverment. More control, more intervenion. You know why communism failed? because the only ones who got rich were the goverment officials, because goverment is the only entity that gets money under that system. Not to mention the amount of blood they spilled through decades of cruelty over their own population. This is what you are supporting Cap.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-09-2018 at 12:46 PM.
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  #64  
Unread 06-09-2018, 10:24 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Here's something to consider: Nuclear Fusion plants, coming on line by about 2040. That will mark the end of the Fossil-fuel dominance that's the current cause of global conflict. The economic impact will be enormous, and how well it's handled will determine whether Capitalism is fit to survive.
It really depends if nuclear fusion is cheaper than oil.
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  #65  
Unread 06-09-2018, 04:53 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Colonialism failed as an economic system, because the "mother nation" would impose restrictions to the colonies for trading with other countries, and they would impose a heavy taxation to colonialist merchants which would stump their capacity for growth. This does not constitute a free market economy, and thus it is not capitalism. The actual name for this system is mercantilism.

The U.S. was one of these many colonies. And the american revolution happened because of these reasons: heavy taxation on goods, restrictions for trade (closing of ports) and a general intervention of the royal goverment into local colonian administrations. The american's suffered exactly the same restrictions Africa, South America and Asia did. However they managed to get their independance, and South America soon followed them. If you check the economic statiscs of Both northern and southern american countries during the 19th century and early 20th century, both continents had a rapid economic expansions and good standards of living.

What we have today in the west is, in reality, closer to mercantilism, because national goverment's have a rather heavy intervention in the economy, and a strong say in its direction; with the biggest diference being that they prefer a balance between enterprise and worker. This is not what classical liberals (today called libertarians) want. This is not capitalism.

We are not in favour of goverment bailouts.
We are not in favour of protectionist policies.
We are not in favour of lobbying politicians.
We support the creation of worker's unions (if workers join it freely and are granted no priviliges by goverment)
We support suing your employer for wrongful termination.
We support consumers taking companies to court for damages.

Low taxation for everyone means more money for workers, to save or invest in themselves. It means more money for entrepeneurs to invest in business which will produce more jobs.

You call this "explotation", of what? I want you to earn more. If you have a job you pay as a minimum 10% of your salary as income tax, 15% on everything you buy on a sales tax, and a different amount of taxes that range from 2%-10% or much more, so on the very least around 40% of the total money you make as a worker is taken away from you by the goverment. And, because businesses are also being taxed, they sell at higher prices, so you are paying at least 20% more in prices on everything you buy.

So in reality the amount of money the goverment takes from you is at least 50% of your income!
Who is exploiting you in reality Cap? the rich guy or the politician in washington?

What we have today is a big goverment that benefits the rich. What you want is a big goverment that benefits the poor. What I want is goverment that doesn't get in the way of anyone, neither rich nor poor. We are the children of Adam Smith. We are on the side of freedom.

On the other hand, what you are pushing is for more goverment. More control, more intervenion. You know why communism failed? because the only ones who got rich were the goverment officials, because goverment is the only entity that gets money under that system. Not to mention the amount of blood they spilled through decades of cruelty over their own population. This is what you are supporting Cap.
How did you get the idea that I am for "big government"?

I am pushing for Resource Based Economy. But I am not emotionally attached to that idea. If there is something even better, then I'll support it. What I am 100% sure is that I am against capitalism.

Here is what I am pushing for:

- no money
- no nation states
- no government
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached

- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* if you don't want technology (if you are Amish or for whatever reason) - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES

---

Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.

Now, you want to throw all this away and push us back to horrors of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do you have a heart?



Oh, wait, you don't have to push us back because the horrors never left.



Meet Dorsen, 8, who mines cobalt to make your smartphone work

https://news.sky.com/story/meet-dors...-work-10784120

What you don't understand is that capitalism cannot exist without government because there will be no one to enforce the contracts. On the other hand, government mechanism is abused by capitalists so they can get the competitive edge. So called "crony" capitalism is the only possible way capitalism could ever evolve and now it's here and there is no way to "un-evolve" it. This is what you get, this is how capitalism story ends.

Even if you could magically somehow go back and implement "pure free market" it couldn't work because market cannot address externalities nor any problems for which there are no profitable solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDFtHly3uoA
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  #66  
Unread 06-09-2018, 05:40 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
AppLeo, you're not allowed on this thread!
Pfff... where's the real debate if I'm not here?

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Originally Posted by Cap View Post
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Quite the opposite! I don't like capitalism because I love freedom.

Markets and trade have existed long before capitalism. What was new and specific for capitalism was employer - employee relationship. And this is nothing but a modified slavery.
Well you're wrong. Because people can VOLUNTARILY decide to become an employee or an employer. If I have money, and you have a job that I want you to do, and you decide to do that job for money, that is freedom.

I don't understand how that's slavery. I'd love if you could explain how it's slavery, but I don't think you will.. (probably cuz you actually can't lol)

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According to latest statistics 85% of people on this planet hate their jobs. It can hardly be said that they happily and voluntarily go to work every day.
They still choose to go to work though.
Why?
Because the wage they get an hour is more valuable than being able to do whatever they want.

It's also ridiculous to expect everyone at every moment of their career they're going to enjoy it. Let's be realistic. We live on planet Earth. We have to do things that we don't want to do.

Besides, on average, the american will change their job like 5-7 times. No one stays in the same job they hate forever. You move up, you gain experience, you make more money...

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Yes, the idea of moneyless economy is to abolish trade. Trade as an indicator of demand is no longer necessary, nor it is necessary to have some socialist centralized planned economy. In our modern times of internet and iphones we, as a society, can know exact demand at any given moment, with a precision down to a single potato.

There's plenty of resources, if managed intelligently, for everyone on this planet to have extremely high standard of living, much higher than average American today.
Dude, no. Do you know why we have all those resources in the first place??? The resources will run out when we all decide to stop working.

Also, who's gonna manage these resources? No one's going to manage it for free.

The reason why America has such a great access to food, as an example, is because capitalism effectively manages the resources by trading with individuals. The store owner hires farmers to get him the food, and then he hires some other guys to deliver the food, and then he hires workers to manage the store, etc...

The management is already there. The problem is that the countries who are starving don't have capitalism or free trade, OR they're still working their way up economically.

Lastly, and this is what really bothers me about commies, is their "equality" mentality. Not everyone is the same. People value different things. One person's idea of a good living is different from another. To just scrap capitalism and replace it with a system where everyone has the same everything completely rejects people's wants and desires.

Some people want to live on the beach. Some people want to live in the mountains. Some people want Mac computer, some people want no technology. You're idea of what is enough for all Americans is completely irrelevant.

Capitalism is the best at effectively managing resources already. IF someone wants more stuff for themselves, they will figure out a way to make more money. The people that want less stuff will sell their stuff to people who want more stuff. Individuals freely trading with each other until everyone is happy.

millions and millions of econonmic transacts take place. Why? because everyone has something that other people want. The store has food, I need money, so work for this company, so that I can get money (1st transaction), then I buy food (2nd transaction), and then the store uses that money to buy more food from farmers (3rd transaction)... Capitalism already works.

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If we all start our own business, 99,99% of businesses will fail and there will be no one left to work. The nature of the system is such that only a tiny group of people can be successful, everyone else must fail. That's reflected in wealth disparity reports.
OMG.. you've gotta be kidding me

Why do you think businesses fail??? Because they don't deliver a service that the public wants. If you can't make something that people want, why do you deserve to have money? Rich people get rich because their business is so good at delivering the services that people want. It's so good that people will pay their own hard-earned money for it.

When a business does good, everyone wins. IT creates jobs, it produces a service or product that people want. Better products and services means a more comfortable and easier way of life. Which means people have even more opportunity to create products and services to make life even better.

I'm so tired of communists complaining about wealth disparity. If you don't want super rich people, then stop buying from them. If people are going to freely buy from a rich person and then complain about how rich they are, I don't know what to tell you.

In a capitalist system, there is no such thing as the haves and the have nots. There are just people who have. Some have way more than others, but everyone has something.

Do you want everyone to be equally poor?? (everyone has 10 dollars)
OR
Do you want everyone to be unequally rich?? (The poorest has 100 dollars and the rich have 10,000 dollars)

Like seriously, who cares about wealth inequality if everyone is better off in the end.

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If we all, as a society, own automated production then we are all slave owners and machines are our slaves. All people win.
We're nowhere close to that, so keep dreaming.
Robots can't even open doors.

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Just wait until 2040 when there will be no fish left in the oceans...
K first of all, you don't know that.

Second of all, companies that make money from selling fish will find a way to replace the fish because that's where their profits come from.

Thirdly, so what if fish actually do go extinct? How is that destructive?

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That's why only just alternative society would be automated society.
Can you explain the details of this? I'm having a hard time seeing how this would actually work in the REAL world.

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That's why it is imperative for all people to sit down and discuss the best course of action. I'm sure humanity will find excellent solutions if they really put an effort to it.
Businessmen have been providing solutions already with their businesses.
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  #67  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:00 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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How did you get the idea that I am for "big government"?

I am pushing for Resource Based Economy. But I am not emotionally attached to that idea. If there is something even better, then I'll support it. What I am 100% sure is that I am against capitalism.

Here is what I am pushing for:

- no money
- no nation states
- no government
- no work, no obligations, no strings attached

- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* if you don't want technology (if you are Amish or for whatever reason) - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES
You are so delusional. What you are saying is FANTASY! This doesn't happen in the real world.

People who believe in that stuff are easily manipulated.

---

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Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.

Now, you want to throw all this away and push us back to horrors of Laissez-Faire capitalism. Do you have a heart?
Yes, get rid of it all.

I think those things came about as a mutual agreement in the end. Like you can have laissez-faire capitalism and still have those things. The government doesn't need to be involved to have those things. Like, if people refuse to work more than 8 hours a day, then they don't have to. And if the business owner agrees then that's great.

But if someone else wants to work 9 or more hours a day to take your job, then I don't see a problem with that.

Or if a kid wants to work for lower than minimum wage. I don't see that as a problem. It's your choice.

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Oh, wait, you don't have to push us back because the horrors never left.



Meet Dorsen, 8, who mines cobalt to make your smartphone work

https://news.sky.com/story/meet-dors...-work-10784120
Pulling out the sappy pictures won't change my mind.
Besides, those people (kids) wanted to work those jobs so that they could have money to things that they need.

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What you don't understand is that capitalism cannot exist without government because there will be no one to enforce the contracts.
Actually, that's half true.

The government is needed for many contracts no doubt. But if you look in places like the black market, capitalism is rampant and the government isn't needed. People make trades constantly. If you're someone who can't be trusted or steals, people will stop trading with you.

Also, if you take relationships for example, those are kind of like capitalism too. I'll be your friend if you be my friend. We're friends because we both value each other's company and support. Many friendships are broken, betrayed, or lobsided because one person isn't regulated by an external force like the government. But nonetheless, these relationships still take place, and many successful romantic relationships are able to occur despite no government intervention.

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On the other hand, government mechanism is abused by capitalists so they can get the competitive edge. So called "crony" capitalism is the only possible way capitalism could ever evolve and now it's here and there is no way to "un-evolve" it. This is what you get, this is how capitalism story ends.
So shrink government power. Stop trying to take wealth from the rich. Take away power from the government. That will fix the problem.

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Even if you could magically somehow go back and implement "pure free market" it couldn't work because market cannot address externalities nor any problems for which there are no profitable solutions.
What are you talking about...?

If you can't make a profit with your solution, it's a solution that no one wants

People only pay money for services or products that solve their problems. If the market doesn't create a solution to your problem, then your problem doesn't exist or matter.
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Last edited by AppLeo; 06-09-2018 at 06:04 PM.
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  #68  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:02 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Originally Posted by Cap View Post
Here is what I am pushing for:

- no work, no obligations, no strings attached
- absolute personal freedom

* if you want to contribute something to the society - that's fine
* if you don't want to contribute anything in your entire life - fine
* if you want full set of technology - fine
* you get to live in the place of your choice
* if you want to be isolated and live away from people - fine, you still get everything you need delivered by flying automated drones
* highest possible individual expression and preference - you get to customize every single item in your life if you wish

You could argue that one is not completely free because you don't get your own spaceship, still close enough to freedom for me.

Is it utopia? No, there will be problems.
Is it possible? YES
Ok so... this is pure nonsense. The only thing missing from this statement is that every person would also get a flying unicorn as their personal means of transportation. If people can choose not to work. Then who would do all those magnificent things you propose happen? Let me guess, magical robots?


You know, the zeitgeist videos are cool and fun and all, but they are just naive. The first problem with your info, and that way of thinking is this: who is going to create all this technology for you to use Cap? some nice guys while you sit and do nothing? the goverment (specifacally, people working for goverment) ?

Where does this beautiful stuff come from Cap?


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Now, lets examine what you are pushing for (unregulated capitalism).

Are you aware that all "luxuries" you are enjoying in your workplace today were hardly fought and won battles against unregulated capitalism by the left (people you despise)? People paid with their lives so that we can have today:

- no child labor
- safe(r) workplace
- 8 hours work day
- free weekends and holidays
- minimum wage
etc.
So before capitalism children did not work right? And farmers did not work from dawn to dusk? I presume that the thousands of years of human history before capitalism those did not exist right?

So your logic is this:

- People worked to death thousands of years before capitalism, children included
- People worked to death once capitalism was "created", children included
- Capitalists are bad and mean and they are responsible for people working to death.

That doesn't even make sense Cap. People worked from dawn to dusk, because it was the costume of ancient societies of working a lot of hours. You are blaming free market society for up until that moment in life, was how human life operated for thousands of years.

So did the children of native americans, before the europeans arrived, did not grow crops? did not hunt? did not fight in tribal wars? These are societies that used no money, have no laws, no jobs, no goverments, and you telling me that the life of these children was awsome before the development of capitalism right? I mean sure, only the europeans are cruel enough that they made children work, after all, its not that for the most of human history children had a horrible life, if you know, they even managed to live past the age of 1 month.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-09-2018 at 06:12 PM.
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  #69  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:09 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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I believe each individual has a right to do whatever they want with their property. The goverment has no actual right to take more from you than from others.
But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.

Question for you: the super-rich can use their money to buy up TV networks, newspapers, media outlets, and then hire writers and producers to produce whatever content they want and in doing so, control what the populace think. They can also influence the outcome of elections by donating to candidates that support policies that benefit them (the very rich). Does this seem right to you? I agree that when people say, "nobody needs hundreds of billions", it seems unreasonable at first, but after you see the way the wealthy have so much control and influence over the rest of us, then maybe we need to re-think the current way we do things.

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Lets say I write a book. Lets say that you guys (cap, david, odd) each buy a copy from me for $100 each. Now I'm $300 wealthier, while each of you is $100 poorer. But now because I have more money, cap and david want me to pay more taxes than them.

- Why should I pay more taxes? you exchanged your money to me freely.
- Did I force you to buy the book from me, as if I was an overlord with power over you? no
- Should I give you the book for free because you think you are entitled to read my book? no
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.

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  #70  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:23 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.
What's wrong with the rich getting richer???

WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM???

Should we stop the super intelligent from getting more intelligent?

"omg dude, einstien is too intelligent with his E=Mc^2 formula, we better give him brain damage because his intelligence makes stupid pepole feel bad."

"it's not fair that he's able to be the best mathematician, everyone should be an average mathematician"

Or the super attractive from getting more attractive?

"im a beautiful woman, but Marilyn Monroe is so beautiful and attractive compared to me, so I should kill her because it's unfair."

Why are we trying to put an end to people's successes? Like I don't understand. The envy is real.

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Originally Posted by wan View Post
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.
There is no such thing as slavery in capitalism. Wage slavery is a term created by the left to justify government intervention.

If you look at the perspective of the business owner, he created the business from his own free will. It's his business and he can run it however he wants to. He didn't create the business to give people a living wage. He didn't create the business from a moral perspective.

He created the business to make money.

Honestly, if you feel bad for these people, why don't you start a business of your own and pay them 50$ an hour to do a job that anyone can do, and see how stupid it feels.

Why would I pay someone 50$ an hour to run the cash register???

Why would I even start a business and hire people if I have to pay so much money to have workers?

Business owners would just hire themselves and pay themselves from the money they make from the business. But what happens when the business fails and the fail to pay themselves minimum wage??? Do they go to prison because their employer didn't pay them money?

But going back, if a business owner just refuses to hire people because he could make more money working by himself then he will. But ultimately that's worse for the economy because that means less jobs for people. And that means the people who are "slaves" don't even have the opportunity to work a minimum wage job. And if a business is smaller and only run by one person, that means less products are manufactured, and the less products that are created means that the products are more expensive, which means less products for the public to buy. Which means less comfort and opportunity for the public, which means less businesses for the public to create, which means less jobs, which... you get the point.

No one owes you a job. No one owes you a salary.

Also, as I've said before, no one works a minimum wage job forever. People change jobs, gain experience, etc...
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Unread 06-09-2018, 06:30 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

I answered some of this stuff in some later post after the one you quoted, by I'll sum it up.

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But we can re-organize our society in such a way so as to stop the rich from getting even richer.

Question for you: the super-rich can use their money to buy up TV networks, newspapers, media outlets, and then hire writers and producers to produce whatever content they want and in doing so, control what the populace think. They can also influence the outcome of elections by donating to candidates that support policies that benefit them (the very rich). Does this seem right to you?
You are choosing where to get your news from. You don't have to watch those shows if you don't want to. And in any case what you should actually do is watch all of them. Watch msnbc, watch fox news, read the leftist blog, read the right wing blog, then weight out the diference and balance the evidence presented (if any) and you will get the answers.

And why does lobbying happen? because of big goverment! Because you allow the goverment to have too much control over the economy.

A company lobbys a politician, who in turn votes to bailout that company. How does the goverment get the money to bailout said company? from taxes they take from the people!

Lower taxes = less things goverment can spend on = no goverment bailing out a failed company.
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Originally Posted by wan View Post
But things are not simple as that. Have you heard of the term "wage slavery"? Basically, in our current society, there is no slavery ostensibly. However, people need money to survive, so they take any jobs they can. Even though technically businesses don't force people to work for them, and that on the surface people apply for these jobs voluntarily, there is still an element of slavery (for a lack of better term) in all this. Maybe not in a legal sense, but definitely in a moral sense.
As I said before, almost half of the money you make, even if you earn a rather low wage, goes to the goverment, on a number of different taxes. So as a start, worker's living conditions would improve if taxation wasn't so high.

Then, you need to account that the more taxes there are, the less money people can save, and becuase of that, there is less money people can invest, which in turn means there are less jobs being created. You get more money, you invest it, you profit, and while you profit you create a job for someone else. It is a win-win.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-09-2018 at 06:33 PM.
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  #72  
Unread 06-09-2018, 06:52 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Thirdly, so what if fish actually do go extinct? How is that destructive?
I can't believe you actually said that. What is wrong with human race?

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  #73  
Unread 06-09-2018, 07:07 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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I can't believe you actually said that. What is wrong with human race?

Out of all the things I said, you respond to that one thing.

You also didnít answer my question, which means that you donít have a good reason for why fish going extinct is bad.

Also, people can create their own aquariums and own their own fish if they actually care about fish.
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  #74  
Unread 06-09-2018, 07:28 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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They still choose to go to work though.
Why?
Because the wage they get an hour is more valuable than being able to do whatever they want.

It's also ridiculous to expect everyone at every moment of their career they're going to enjoy it. Let's be realistic. We live on planet Earth. We have to do things that we don't want to do.

Besides, on average, the american will change their job like 5-7 times. No one stays in the same job they hate forever. You move up, you gain experience, you make more money...
Have patience...

It is also possible that many of them already changed 5-7 jobs and hated all of them.

Your logic of "VOLUNTARY" trade works only if you count death by starvation as option.

Much more realistic is to conclude that people are extremely unhappy in current system.
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  #75  
Unread 06-09-2018, 07:34 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Have patience...

It is also possible that many of them already changed 5-7 jobs and hated all of them.

Your logic of "VOLUNTARY" trade works only if you count death by starvation as option.

Much more realistic is to conclude that people are extremely unhappy in current system.
Well businessmen could just decide not to start a business or not hire anyone for any wage.

So people should be lucky to have the option to have a job than starving to death.
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