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  #26  
Unread 06-07-2018, 09:58 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
And what kind of 'force' do you suggest we apply to separate people from their money?

Why is it fair to do that?
The same "force" that separated the slave owners from their slaves and feudal lords from their peasants.

Fair? First people are forced to live in dog-eat-dog world by the rules of some crazy Russian psychopath writer and if that same people rise some day and say: "Enough of this madness, the game is over! We say so because we are the strongest!", then suddenly you don't want to play dog-eat-dog game anymore?

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  #27  
Unread 06-07-2018, 10:04 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

I see. All rich people are evil, therefore you can do anything you want to them. Sure, mob rule would be a real improvement over what we have now.

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The same "force" that separated the slave owners from their slaves and feudal lords from their peasants.

Fair? First people are forced to live in dog-eat-dog world by the rules of some crazy Russian psychopath writer and if that same people rise some day and say: "Enough of this madness, the game is over! We say so because we are the strongest!", then suddenly you don't want to play dog-eat-dog game anymore?
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  #28  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:18 PM
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I see. All rich people are evil, therefore you can do anything you want to them. Sure, mob rule would be a real improvement over what we have now.
I'm just talking about an economic system that does the most good and the least harm, and includes maximizing individual liberty. Having a LOT of money gives one a LOT of power under Capitalism, and, unfortunately, that power CAN be abused. But, honestly, is a high but not exorbitant tax rate on the extremely wealthy equivalent to declaring them "evil" and doing "anything you want to them"? We're all in this material world together, and I'd like to think there are very rich people who would welcome the chance to help make it better or everyone.
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  #29  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:33 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...middle-income/
The wealth gap between America’s high income group and everyone else has reached record high levels since the economic recovery from the Great Recession of 2007-09, with a clear trajectory of increasing wealth for the upper-income families and no wealth growth for the middle- and lower-income families.

(the last recession in 2008 was caused by fraudulent derivatives. this has been established. but there has not been any legal action taken against this institutionalized fraud. the middle class lost over 40 trillion dollars in equity and the banks and financial institutions ended up with over 40 trillion dollars in off shore banks.
the "recovery" has been fueled by the fraudulent gain of the banks/financial institutions.
the united stes has driven the worlds economy for most of the 20th century because of consumer spending. but know with the extinction of the middle class, the economy is now driven by war. the US has been in a war economy since Obama escalated the middle east war . this means that the middle class is no longer benefiting from the economy, but rather the corporations that built instruments of death are the main benefactors

rahu)

Last edited by rahu; 06-08-2018 at 10:33 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:34 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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How do I move this to Cap's anti-capitalism thread?


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  #31  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:36 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Taxation without representation was a big thing in US history. Look it up.

Okay. So you charge exorbitant taxes on the rich, and imprison them if they don't pay. What if they opt out by moving their businesses, money, and themselves to a more market-friendly country? Would that be permitted?

A lot of wealthy folks help out by donating to charity, albeit that has problems, too.

Also, do you believe that the government is all-wise and benevolent, not prone to corruption and greed, and is the best vehicle for fair wealth distribution?

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I'm just talking about an economic system that does the most good and the least harm, and includes maximizing individual liberty. Having a LOT of money gives one a LOT of power under Capitalism, and, unfortunately, that power CAN be abused. But, honestly, is a high but not exorbitant tax rate on the extremely wealthy equivalent to declaring them "evil" and doing "anything you want to them"? We're all in this material world together, and I'd like to think there are very rich people who would welcome the chance to help make it better or everyone.
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  #32  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:37 PM
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There's a fun anecdote about Ernest Hemingway and F.Scott Fitzgerald concerning wealthy people. Fitzgerald was in awe of them, and said "The rich are DIFFERENT you know." To which Hemingway replied, "Yeah, they've got more money!"
Calvinism equates having great wealth with being in God's favor. That's the Capitalistic equivalent of Feudalism's concept of the Divine Right of royalty.
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  #33  
Unread 06-07-2018, 11:47 PM
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Taxation without representation was a big thing in US history. Look it up.

Okay. So you charge exorbitant taxes on the rich, and imprison them if they don't pay. What if they opt out by moving their businesses, money, and themselves to a more market-friendly country? Would that be permitted?

A lot of wealthy folks help out by donating to charity, albeit that has problems, too.

Also, do you believe that the government is all-wise and benevolent, not prone to corruption and greed, and is the best vehicle for fair wealth distribution?
No, the idea is to find a NON-exhorbitant tax-rate that works. As for the Government, it's full of people out to enrich themselves. That's why I want the distribution methods "built-in" and automatic, so politicians can't mess with them. An analogy would be an automobile engine, with both a storage battery (the wealthy) and a distributor. If you can't draw energy (money) from the battery, the engine stalls out.

Last edited by david starling; 06-08-2018 at 06:17 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 06-08-2018, 12:11 AM
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Same analogy--the alternator (the Consumers) puts energy back into the battery, keeping it charged up. Everybody wins.
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  #35  
Unread 06-08-2018, 06:28 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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What I want is a functional system that works to preserve individual liberty without opening the door to suffering, war, and degradation of the Environment.
Here's one for you--do we have the right to use whatever medications and recreational drugs we choose? Or, do we have to curtail that right for "the greater good"?

Liberty is based on our presumption that we are beings capable of rational thought, which is our defining trait as humans, and can co-exist in a free society. When an individual is not capable of rational thought, society needs to ensure this individual will not harm others or himself.

This reason is, for example, why young children are under the legal care of their parents, because their rational thinking capabilities have not yet fully developed and can't make decisions by themselves.

I believe you have a right to consume whatever drug/medication you want. However, while under the effects of drugs, your cognitive abilities are impaired, and if you become incapable of rational thought, society has a right to take measures to prevent you harming others.

I'm fine with you getting high in your own home having fun. What you can't do is drive, hurt or harras other people under the effects of drugs, or sell that drugs to others specially to minors. I mean, you don't want people selling cocaine to 10 year olds right david?
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2018 at 06:31 AM.
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  #36  
Unread 06-08-2018, 06:53 AM
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Lock that liquor cabinet! We're in agreement on self-medication and recreational drugs--adults should have a right to use them. There are laws against harming others, and whether it's because of alcohol or drugs, or mental imbalance of any sort, including fatigue and PTSD, those laws should be enforced.
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  #37  
Unread 06-08-2018, 07:00 AM
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

There was a sign on the door of an office building in San Francisco, which said, "Please do not interfere with our courier robots."
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  #38  
Unread 06-08-2018, 07:05 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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It depends which statistic you choose. Around 40% of adult population in USA doesn't work. Around 22% of population aged 25-54 doesn't work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/03/u...r-options.html

This is just a beginning of robot industrial revolution. We haven't seen anything yet. Technology is advancing at an exponential rate. In 10 years there will be things possible we cannot even imagine today.

This is an old video but it has very good message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

What I don't understand is the following:

If human society advances to such technological level that we could make all human labor obsolete, if we advance to such level that we could provide abundance for all humans on this planet, why would anyone in the right mind be against reorganizing society in such way to make this possible?

Why would anyone want to stick with this old inadequate system if there is a better option? If you are freed from labor and given a gift of free life why would you still insist on this dog-eat-dog world?

We've heard that for the past 150 years, and it still hasn't happened. As I explained you before, the more technology advances, people simply move into other areas, or venture into new industries. Technology makes some jobs obsolete, but it also creates new ones.

What you are failing to realise is the capacity for humans to adapt and interact. I used the entertainment industry as an example of a growing market.

The system is the best there has been in the entire human history. ALL other systems have utterly failed. And marxists usually say capitalism is failing... based on what? capitalist countries are the wealthiest countries on earth, and there is no evidence to the contrary. In fact the more that capitalist countries have moved to the left with policy the worse they have been.

What human beings need is opportunity to do things. You do that by allowing them to freely interact with others, not by giving them money.

--------------------------------


The unemployment statistics are what they are in every period. Currently, in the world the rate of unemployment is around the same it was 20, 30, 40 years ago, despite massive technological improvements, always jumping between and around 5%-10%.

My mention of unemployment rates today wasn't to push some Trump propaganda, but to show you that the rates remain the same, despite population increasing, which means that people still get jobs at an equal rate. According to your logic, the U.S. should have a 40%-50% unemployment due to technology replacing this jobs. It hasn't.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2018 at 07:15 AM.
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  #39  
Unread 06-08-2018, 07:06 AM
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A morally-based Economic-system should be expected to serve the People, not the other way around.
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  #40  
Unread 06-08-2018, 07:29 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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The same "force" that separated the slave owners from their slaves and feudal lords from their peasants.

Fair? First people are forced to live in dog-eat-dog world by the rules of some crazy Russian psychopath writer and if that same people rise some day and say: "Enough of this madness, the game is over! We say so because we are the strongest!", then suddenly you don't want to play dog-eat-dog game anymore?
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
No, the idea is to find a NON-exhorbitant tax-rate that works. As for the Government, it's full of people out to enrich themselves. That's why I want the distribution methods "built-in" and automatic, so politicians can't mess with them. An analogy would be an automobile engine, with both a storage battery (the wealthy) and a distributor. If you can't draw energy (money) from the battery, the engine stalls out.

You can have a flat tax rate, in which every person in society pays the same rate (lets say 20%). The rich are still paying more in any case.

The problem is when you presume that because someone has more money, he has to pay for everyone else. Lets work it out with an example:

Lets say I write a book. Lets say that you guys (cap, david, odd) each buy a copy from me for $100 each. Now I'm $300 wealthier, while each of you is $100 poorer. But now because I have more money, cap and david want me to pay more taxes than them.

- Why should I pay more taxes? you exchanged your money to me freely.
- Did I force you to buy the book from me, as if I was an overlord with power over you? no
- Should I give you the book for free because you think you are entitled to read my book? no

I mean, what the hell? why am I suddenly the bad guy because I have more money?
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  #41  
Unread 06-08-2018, 08:33 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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I see. All rich people are evil, therefore you can do anything you want to them. Sure, mob rule would be a real improvement over what we have now.
It's called democracy. I say, lets put the question of economic system on global referendum. If capitalism wins I'll accept it as a will of human race. If capitalism loses, will you accept it?
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  #42  
Unread 06-08-2018, 08:39 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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The system is the best there has been in the entire human history. ALL other systems have utterly failed. And marxists usually say capitalism is failing... based on what? capitalist countries are the wealthiest countries on earth, and there is no evidence to the contrary. In fact the more that capitalist countries have moved to the left with policy the worse they have been.
But there are dozens of proposed systems that haven't been tried yet.

Slave owners also argued that slavery is the best system of all.
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  #43  
Unread 06-08-2018, 09:00 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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It's called democracy. I say, lets put the question of economic system on global referendum. If capitalism wins I'll accept it as a will of human race. If capitalism loses, will you accept it?

Your majority rule doesn't get to trample my individual rights.

- The majority of the people in Germany decided that Jewish individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the people in Turkey decided that Armenians individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the people in Japan decided that Chinese individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

- The majority of the population in the Soviet Union decided that farmer's individual property rights needed to be confiscated, and later them as a population needed to be extinguished, and proceeded to kill them all.

Many things have been done in the name of the majority. So if people refuse to live under your socialist regime, would you follow the same path? Would you just force people to give up their stuff and live under your thumb?

If your answer is no, then I have an alternative solution: let every person or community choose how to live; we can divide the world and those that choose capitalism can go live in countries that value free market, and those that would like socialism can go live in socialst countries. I think this way its actually more fair, and everyone can live in peace with their choices.

Oh wait we already did that: its called the 20th century.

And even so, you can choose to establish your own little socialist community within the U.S. Gather your friends, buy some land, and live in a socialist regime where everyone shares with others, and everyone takes care of everybody else. You can have your mini-socialist experiment within the country if you want to.

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But there are dozens of proposed systems that haven't been tried yet.

Slave owners also argued that slavery is the best system of all.

All systems revolve around 2 concepts: big goverment or small goverment. Not much variation.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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  #44  
Unread 06-08-2018, 09:29 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

No one owns the planet, we are all stuck here together, whether we like it or not. I am for full set of personal rights and liberties but some things are just insane. No one needs billions while his fellow human beings are unnecessary starving to death. If this is the outcome of the system, then the system is idiotic. No one has a right to pollute and irreversibly damage the planet (in the name of profit). If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.
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  #45  
Unread 06-08-2018, 09:49 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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No one owns the planet, we are all stuck here together, whether we like it or not. I am for full set of personal rights and liberties but some things are just insane. No one needs billions while his fellow human beings are unnecessary starving to death. If this is the outcome of the system, then the system is idiotic. No one has a right to pollute and irreversibly damage the planet (in the name of profit). If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.
What is it to you if someone has millions or even trillions? He did not steal them from you. People give them to him freely in exchange for goods and services. Jeff Bezos is the richest man alive. Did he steal that money from the poor?

People aren't starving because some guy has a lot of money. People are starving because they DO NOT know how to manage their resources. People in Venezuela are starving right now. And they are a socialist country. Because the goverment takes their taxes and their money, and does not allow them to buy food from other countries. Because the goverment presumes to manage the wealth of the country instead of allowing individuals to be free to manage it.

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If you refuse all democratic negotiation, what you essentially say is that you demand to be defeated by force.
I see, so if I do not do what you say, you will hurt me.

So just like the kulak farmers in the soviet union, or the jews in nazi germany, I have to give my property to you, and do what you say, or you will be morally justified to hurt me, because you represent the will of the majority.

Cap, are you serious? You seriously don't realise what you are saying?
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  #46  
Unread 06-08-2018, 10:37 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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I see, so if I do not do what you say, you will hurt me.

So just like the kulak farmers in the soviet union, or the jews in nazi germany, I have to give my property to you, and do what you say, or you will be morally justified to hurt me, because you represent the will of the majority.

Cap, are you serious? You seriously don't realise what you are saying?
I am perfectly aware what I'm saying but are you?

All economic advantage of Europe, Japan and USA over the rest of the world is not due to "a magic of capitalism" as mass media propaganda might led you believe but due to a relentless exploitation and theft of the third world. All of this has been accomplished by the use of brutal force in the past and today is mostly replaced by financial machinations through the IMF. It's essentially what the U.S. has been doing for the past 50 years.

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.

You are arguing that a 'dog-eat-dog' world with all its use of force, exploitation and coercion, both on micro and macro level, is just a natural order of things, the way "it is supposed to be". But if someone within the system wants to use the same strategy against oppressive elements then it's not right.

Last edited by Cap; 06-08-2018 at 10:51 AM.
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  #47  
Unread 06-08-2018, 11:51 AM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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All economic advantage of Europe, Japan and USA over the rest of the world is not due to "a magic of capitalism" as mass media propaganda might led you believe but due to a relentless exploitation and theft of the third world. All of this has been accomplished by the use of brutal force in the past and today is mostly replaced by financial machinations through the IMF. It's essentially what the U.S. has been doing for the past 50 years.

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.
As a person that lives in the third world, and that has studied how local politics affect the region, I can testify that everything you just said is false. And I will explain to you why:

The problems in south america are 100% big goverment. We pay huge taxes here, personal liberties are reduced (despite the fact we live in democratic nations), economic growth is stumped, and an outrageous miss-management of funds leads to heavy inflation.

The idea that "the great powers" steal our resources is hilarious and dumb. Nearly all the resources have been under control of the national goverments, and nearly all the companies run by the goverment are miss-managed and have a net loss. We actually hope every year that economic conditions improve so your companies can come into south america, invest capital and create jobs, so people can earn a living. In fact, when the goverments sell the resources to private capital (whether foreign or national), production usually increases and the prices of those products gets lower, the economy grows and people end up having more jobs.

I can go into details and give you a 25 page explanation of the economic problems in my country, and by extension in other countries if you want.
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I am perfectly aware what I'm saying but are you?

On the micro level, I don't buy your "free market" theory BS. If someone is offered an extremely exploitative deal as only alternative to death by starvation - that's not a free choice. That's exploitation.

You are arguing that a 'dog-eat-dog' world with all its use of force, exploitation and coercion, both on micro and macro level, is just a natural order of things, the way "it is supposed to be". But if someone within the system wants to use the same strategy against oppressing elements then it's not right.
Cap you are clearly willing to use physical force, which leads to death, to impose your system. So you have no problem in harming others in the name of your "revolution".

You like to assume that third world countries are beautiful paradises, until the big and bad Euro-Americans come and trash the place, enslave the population and take all the resources which is just a dumb belief. Most third world country economies encourage foreign capital to invest in the country. In fact those that do, see their economies and standards of living increasing.
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Last edited by Dirius; 06-08-2018 at 11:58 AM.
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  #48  
Unread 06-08-2018, 01:54 PM
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Smile Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

Reasonable taxation of Billionaires and Millionaires doesn't interfere with their pursuit of happiness, because they will still have more than enough money to buy anything they want and go anywhere they want, in-style and with special privileges. The source of their wealth is the labor of others, and the natural resources that belong to the Planet we all live on. So, it's not their sacred right to hoard massive amounts of wealth while many starve and die for the lack of it. In fact, I would call THAT immoral.
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  #49  
Unread 06-08-2018, 02:36 PM
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

It doesn't work like that, David. You're not poor because Bill Gates is rich. It doesn't even make sense.

If you want to get rid of crony capitalism, I'm with you all the way. It's a huge problem in Canada, and also in the US. It's one of the things that drove Venezuela into ill-fated socialism. But do note that Venezuela was a very wealthy country where the majority of people were NOT starving when it was capitalist. It was socialism that brought on that catastrophe.

I'd be more than happy to get rid of most corporate welfare and many of the corporate/governmental deals. Up here they usually lead to things like collusion and price-fixing. This is not free-market capitalism.

But there isn't anything immoral about someone having a lot of money. Their money doesn't make you or anyone else poor. Capitalism has done a lot to lift people out of poverty. Socialism has been a nightmarish reversal of that.
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Re: Anti-Capitalism Thread

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Reasonable taxation of Billionaires and Millionaires doesn't interfere with their pursuit of happiness, because they will still have more than enough money to buy anything they want and go anywhere they want, in-style and with special privileges. The source of their wealth is the labor of others, and the natural resources that belong to the Planet we all live on. So, it's not their sacred right to hoard massive amounts of wealth while many starve and die for the lack of it. In fact, I would call THAT immoral.
Every great famine in the 20th century has occured in countries where the goverment has a large control over the economy. Never in the history of free market societies has starvation existed. Not even during the great depression of the 30's was there starvation (which by the way, was caused mostly by bad goverment policy).

Countries such as the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc. have suffered mass starvation during the 20th century. In fact in some countries form the west, obesity is actually a larger problem than starvation.
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