Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology > Research and Development

Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 01-30-2018, 05:05 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

What would you steer him toward, using your system?

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 01-30-2018, 05:32 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
What would you steer him toward, using your system?
Given the lack of empathy due to the eclipse and the Neptune/Moon Opposition; and, Pluto as Facilitator in H8, I might have suggested a career in the mortuary field. I'll be more attentive to the "lack of empathy" factor due to Moon afflictions. I don't recall seeing a Moon so badly afflicted.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 01-30-2018, 05:44 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

I've been testing using the Charts of famous people, with known habits and accomplishments, as well as failures. Serial killers are in a category of their own. Should we include all of the Presidents who have signed off on mass killings in "justified" wars?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 01-30-2018, 05:54 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Given the lack of empathy due to the eclipse and the Neptune/Moon Opposition; and, Pluto as Facilitator in H8, I might have suggested a career in the mortuary field. I'll be more attentive to the "lack of empathy" factor due to Moon afflictions. I don't recall seeing a Moon so badly afflicted.
Wow... now that you mention it, there is a lot of "finality" just in that eclipse placement alone - It occurs in the final sign, and it is located at the bottom of the chart, a place characterized by death, burial and the "end of matters". The extinguishing of the Moon through thr eclipse in this final sign is also pretty powerful symbology in leiu of what he did in his life.

Here is the chart for anyone who is following along.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gacy,_John_Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 01-30-2018, 05:56 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I've been testing using the Charts of famous people, with known habits and accomplishments, as well as failures. Serial killers are in a category of their own. Should we include all of the Presidents who have signed off on mass killings in "justified" wars?
The motives are different so I don't think putting them together would be useful.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 01-30-2018, 06:07 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
The motives are different so I don't think putting them together would be useful.
What about serial killers who justify their motives by claiming the moral high ground?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 01-30-2018, 06:12 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
What about serial killers who justify their motives by claiming the moral high ground?
Do serial killers the likes of Gacy, Ramirez, Bundy, Chikatilo, Fish etc care about the moral high ground? They seem to revel in the perversity of their killing techniques.

Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 01-30-2018 at 06:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Unread 01-30-2018, 06:22 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Do serial killers the likes of Gacy, Ramirez, Bundy, Chikatilo, Fish etc care about the moral high ground? They seem to revel in the perversity of their killing techniques, among other things.
Right. That's in its own category. But there ARE those who claim moral justification for their killing. Terminology like "for the greater good", "in defense of the Motherland (or Fatherland), "in the cause of Freedom", usually means claiming that God is on their side. There's also the more personal type of justification involving "putting people out of their misery", such as an "Angel of Death" in a nursing home.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 01-30-2018, 06:47 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

The fictional "Dexter" had his own way of justifying his admittedly sadistic practices. A serial killer of serial killers!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:09 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Hmm. This Thread took an unexpected turn. J.A. was the instigator!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:23 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

It just so happened that I was looking at Gacy's chart the other day and following some discussions on it. The seed was already there which JA conveniently watered.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:28 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Well, presumably a Materialistic-scientist would demand statistical proof that all sadistic serial killers have afflicted Moons. For some reason, I don't really care what Materialistic Science says about Astrology. I have my own Astrological description of Materialistic Science, but it requires the use of the Age Tuning Fork, otherwise labeled "Gaia's Trident" in the Tropical setting. End result: "This too [Materialistic Science] shall pass." But Astrology will continue on.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:36 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Hmm, how about Ted Bundy's chart?
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted

Do you see an afflicted Moon in his case and/or a compounding of testimonies to explain his serial killing?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:44 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

I've been looking at Tesla's versus Edison's Charts. No firm conclusions yet, but looks promising. Also, the Chart of another famous inventor interested in electricity, Benjamin Franklin. I actually got the idea for the depiction of an Astrological "tuning fork" as a means for describing Earth's "Resonance Field" as projected into the Ecliptic, from Tesla's purely materialistic version of the Earth as an electromagnetic "tuning fork". Interesting to me that Pluto's pitchfork was like unto the tuning fork image--unlike those of his two brothers, Pluto's lacked the center tine. Sea-ruler Neptune held the Trident of Earthly Authority as the fisherman's trident, and Sky-ruler Zeus/Jupiter held it as a three-pronged lightening bolt.

Last edited by david starling; 01-30-2018 at 07:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 01-30-2018, 07:54 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,524
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Is Pluto's pitchfork and it's similarity to a tuning fork image significant to your system, are is just an interesting "coincidence"?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Unread 01-30-2018, 08:20 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Is Pluto's pitchfork and it's similarity to a tuning fork image significant to your system, are is just an interesting "coincidence"?
It's significant. That was the Foreground, Tropical Age of Sagittarius, and with Jupiter as the Foreground Age-ruler, and Pluto as the Background Age-ruler (since the tuning-fork here is designed to cover a Sign's length), Mutable-fire versus Fixed-water (concurrent Background Age of Scorpio) required a go-between, Pisces, Mutable-water, which brings in Neptune as the middle brother. The Age Trident is formed with the (constructed) tuning-fork centered on the center-line of Earth's elliptical orbit, at the Earth's Point of Perihelion. I've identified the three points as relating to Individuals (1st-point in the direction of motion), the center-point to Society, and the 3rd-point to Tradition. Pluto's pitchfork would therefore have connected Sagittarius directly to Scorpio, without the intercession of Pisces and Neptune as a Social influence--with death a purely personal matter between the Individual and Tradition.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 01-30-2018, 08:38 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Petosiris, I take the opinions of every serious, experienced Astrologer seriously, whether I end up agreeing with every opinion or not. You came down very hard on using more than one House system as valid, whereas I consider them as descriptive of different "Life Paths" one might choose along the way. Just wondering why you're so adamant about there being only one valid House system, and one valid coordinate-system regarding the Signs. Also, what you consider them to be--Sidereal or Tropical, and which is your confirmed House method? (If you don't mind saying).
I am fine with modern astrologers doing their thing with whatever house or zodiac.
I am not fine with an astrologer who has the same methods as I do, but uses different workframes - tropical and quadrants. It is obvious that this will lead to contradictory results and nothing to do with approaches to life and astrology. Personally I use sidereal and whole signs and that means a tropicalist will delineate the chart very differently, and there will be differences between the house (and ayanamsa) users too. This is not currently that big of a problem as there are hardly two astrologers who use the same methods, but if there was a school of astrology, they would need to figure things out. There is no middle way between sidereal and tropical, one is better (it could be slightly, or it could be greatly) than the other.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-30-2018 at 08:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
david starling (01-30-2018), JUPITERASC (01-30-2018)
  #43  
Unread 01-30-2018, 08:42 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Hmm, how about Ted Bundy's chart?
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted

Do you see an afflicted Moon in his case and/or a compounding of testimonies to explain his serial killing?
Well, let me see....All right, Whole-sign looks more clear. A loaded H5, with Sun in Sagittarius "Catalytic", Mars "Motivational" and the Moon, which is "in-Service" to Sagittarius, is essentially supercharged in terms of providing personal, emotional-energy. That adds up to very powerful energy. Normally Ouranos (the correct Greek for ) would be the Moon's "Benefactor", but it's in direct Opposition--lack of emotional guidance. Meanwhile, the deadly enmity between Saturn and Pluto is being played out in H1, and the Moon and Mars are in close Trine to that situation. [Pausing to pull up the Chart again]....Just checking to see why Jupiter couldn't help--it's in Scorpio, Pluto's Sign, directly Squaring Pluto. Pluto in Leo is a Facilitator, while (extremely contrary to Traditional) Saturn in Leo is Enhanced. So, Death made easy, in H5, for the Chart-native's entertainment, with Mars as Motivator. I would say this Moon has extremely scary energy, on tap, without Guidance. While lacking empathy, it does possess a great deal of intuitive ability. Terrible combination! Hmm, Sun's at the bottom again....

Last edited by david starling; 01-30-2018 at 09:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 01-30-2018, 09:08 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I am fine with modern astrologers doing their thing with whatever house or zodiac.
I am not fine with an astrologer who has the same methods as I do, but uses different workframes - tropical and quadrants. It is obvious that this will lead to contradictory results and nothing to do with approaches to life and astrology. Personally I use sidereal and whole signs and that means a tropicalist will delineate the chart very differently, and there will be differences between the house (and ayanamsa) users too. This is not currently that big of a problem as there are hardly two astrologers who use the same methods, but if there was a school of astrology, they would need to figure things out. There is no middle way between sidereal and tropical, one is better (it could be slightly, or it could be greatly) than the other.
Thanks. I've accepted Zoller's distinction of Tropical as being about our Mundane lives, and Sidereal about our Spiritual journey--or situation, if you prefer.

Last edited by david starling; 01-30-2018 at 09:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 01-30-2018, 09:17 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks. I've accepted Zoller's distinction of Tropical as being about our Mundane lives, and Sidereal about our Spiritual journey--or situation, if you prefer.
I would have to disagree with that notion. It is possible theoretically, to use two astrologies for two different things, but I have never seen one who does that. Pretty sure most Tropicalists think they cover both, and same for Siderealists.

Robert Zoller says tropical astrology can reveal the length of life. Obviously the same chart in sidereal zodiac will always show a different year, whatever technique you use. Therefore what he says is a contradiction or a sop.

However, in my opinion, there is a universe that allows both modern and traditional astrology, as one is focused on prediction, the other more on personality. Even if they use different zodiacs it is possible, provided they do not contradict each other in their delineation. If this is not possible and there will always be some contradiction, there must be one astrology to rule them all I suppose.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-30-2018 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-30-2018)
  #46  
Unread 01-30-2018, 09:26 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I would have to disagree with that notion. It is possible theoretically, to use two astrologies for two different things, but I have never seen one who does that. Pretty sure most Tropicalists think they cover both, and same for Siderealists.

Robert Zoller says tropical astrology can reveal the length of life. Obviously the same chart in sidereal zodiac will always show a different year, whatever technique you use. Therefore what he says is a contradiction or a sop.

However, in my opinion, there is a universe that allows both modern and traditional astrology, as one is focused on prediction, the other more on personality. Even if they use different zodiacs it is possible.
Nearly all Tropicalists are using the Tropical coordinates for the working Chart, and some variation of Sidereal for the Ages. And these "Ages" are accorded tremendous influence, altering the course of civilization itself. May I assume you're not using an Age Indicator in your Sidereal system?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 01-30-2018, 09:31 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

The ''Ages'' (if you accept that) would only have an effect on very mundane delineations, you realise that? Most practice is on nativities, I've given you a very practical example where it shows that two zodiacs are incompatible.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-30-2018)
  #48  
Unread 01-30-2018, 09:53 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,238
Smile Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The ''Ages'' (if you accept that) would only have an effect on very mundane delineations, you realise that? Most practice is on nativities, I've given you a very practical example where it shows that two zodiacs are incompatible.
I disagree concerning the Ages. That's because what's known as an "Age" is really just a result of Earth's affect on the nativity. What makes it so powerful is, 1) we live on the Earth; and 2) it changes position in each native's Chart so slowly, it influences each successive generation in the same Sign, for millennia. Why pretend the Earth has no Astrological effect on a Chart? That doesn't make sense to me.
As for compatibility, the Aspects remain nearly the same, from Sidereal to Tropical (with an exception for out-of-Sign Aspects and Conjunctions). I see it as two different angles of view. Suppose, as an analogy, there are two windows looking out into the same yard, but they're at opposite ends of a hallway. Neither gets the entire view of the yard, only what can be seen from its own vantage point. You can't look out of both windows at once, but you can gain information about the yard from each. And, there would naturally be both similarities and differences.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 01-30-2018, 11:46 AM
Solar Flare Solar Flare is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Northern hemisphere
Posts: 190
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I am fine with modern astrologers doing their thing with whatever house or zodiac.
I am not fine with an astrologer who has the same methods as I do, but uses different workframes - tropical and quadrants. It is obvious that this will lead to contradictory results and nothing to do with approaches to life and astrology. Personally I use sidereal and whole signs and that means a tropicalist will delineate the chart very differently, and there will be differences between the house (and ayanamsa) users too. This is not currently that big of a problem as there are hardly two astrologers who use the same methods, but if there was a school of astrology, they would need to figure things out. There is no middle way between sidereal and tropical, one is better (it could be slightly, or it could be greatly) than the other.
petosiris, what methods do you use? And why do you choose sidereal over tropical? I don't want a debate on which zodiac is better and which is worse, just genuinely curious, especially since you seem to be quite knowledgeable in astrology. Is it an attempt to follow the ancient authors more closely or have you had enough experience to claim confidently that sidereal works better? Also what ayanamsa do you use?
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Unread 01-30-2018, 02:43 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,357
Re: Does Materialistic Modern Science Have Limitations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar Flare View Post

petosiris, what methods do you use?
And why do you choose sidereal over tropical?

I don't want a debate on which zodiac is better and which is worse, just
genuinely curious, especially since you seem to be quite knowledgeable in astrology.
Is it an attempt to follow the ancient authors more closely
or have you had enough experience
to claim confidently that sidereal works better?
Also what ayanamsa do you use?

the few western sidereal astrologer members of our forum
have no board on which to post
and mostly
unsurprisingly no longer post
there is no area for sidereal delineation
except the General Astrology Board aka Read My Chart et al

in fact
our traditional Hellenistic western sidereal member Konrad closed his Account

but is a member of Skyscript
if anyone is interested to read his delineation there
ex-member Konrad also has a webpage at
https://esmaraldaastrology.wordpress.com/
on which one may comment
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
limitations, materialistic, modern, science

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.