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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #51  
Unread 09-24-2018, 12:23 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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That makes sense too. Since its fixed Mercury.

Its not combust your Sun is it?
Nope. Sun is 2 degrees Leo.

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  #52  
Unread 09-24-2018, 12:25 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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This is all really interesting. Now that you've explained the process and mechanism that led to your conclusion / personal methodology. I'll look into David Cochrane.

Maybe I'll try not looking at signs or houses for X amount of days, and see what my brain picks up. Then I'll add all the colors back in, and see what the difference is in how my brain process things.
Just watch this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u67OQS0DgFU&t=
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Unread 09-24-2018, 12:54 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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They could be different, but I haven't had much evidence to help me see the differences. For aspects I have.
I am lazy enough to not go look for your natal chart on this forum if posted previously. However, we can take what we believe in and dissect it to prove how sign placements/ house placements are also important, if you care to post your natal chart (from astro.com)

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And, I would say that a Venus-Pluto person is going to be way more dark, sexual, and evil in love than say a Venus in the 8th house or Venus in Scorpio.
Now that is what brother Cochrane would call anecdotal astrology or anecdotal evidence. I would say that Venus - Pluto is not the same as having Venus in the eight house or Venus in its detriment in Scorpio. Hence the effect of Ven-Plu as an aspect is going to be different, if one were to consider the aspects to the outers.

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First and last time in this case.
Now that's the Leo Mercury talking arrogantly (Leo) about learning (Mercury) Not being a lifelong process. So on your own thread and through the words coming out of your own mouth we can prove how important sign placements of planets are.

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I think the signs are more likely to be unreliable than the actual dates. Especially houses. Houses are floogey. However, planets touching the house angles I have seen good enough evidence for.
"Signs are most likely to be more unreliable than actually dates"?? We started out by talking about planets in signs in natal charts. I am saying that we cannot rely on the sign placements of planets if the native is unsure of their birth date, far worse month because then the fast moving planets like the Moon, Sun and Merc. will have changed signs, even others if they are on the far end of the signs. That would make the sign placement unreliable. What a sign stands for on its own in terms of information (arrogance associated with Leo, for instance) is quite clear and stable. However, there are multiple ways and areas of life that that arrogance might show up, and a holistic approach helps understand the full pic.
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  #54  
Unread 09-24-2018, 01:13 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
I am lazy enough to not go look for your natal chart on this forum if posted previously. However, we can take what we believe in and dissect it to prove how sign placements/ house placements are also important, if you care to post your natal chart (from astro.com)
astro_2gw_chris.343.65911.jpg

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Now that is what brother Cochrane would call anecdotal astrology or anecdotal evidence. I would say that Venus - Pluto is not the same as having Venus in the eight house or Venus in its detriment in Scorpio. Hence the effect of Ven-Plu as an aspect is going to be different, if one were to consider the aspects to the outers.
Oh. They technically are the same though. All have the same underlying theme.

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Now that's the Leo Mercury talking arrogantly (Leo) about learning (Mercury) Not being a lifelong process. So on your own thread and through the words coming out of your own mouth we can prove how important sign placements of planets are.
pffft..

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
"Signs are most likely to be more unreliable than actually dates"?? We started out by talking about planets in signs in natal charts. I am saying that we cannot rely on the sign placements of planets if the native is unsure of their birth date, far worse month because then the fast moving planets like the Moon, Sun and Merc. will have changed signs, even others if they are on the far end of the signs. That would make the sign placement unreliable. What a sign stands for on its own in terms of information (arrogance associated with Leo, for instance) is quite clear and stable. However, there are multiple ways and areas of life that that arrogance might show up, and a holistic approach helps understand the full pic.
Yeah, I agree with that.

All I'm saying is that aspects tell you a lot more about someone's personality than anything else. Houses and signs or whatever may be helpful for other things, but not personality. Houses and Signs only flavors the personality.
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Unread 09-24-2018, 01:38 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

I understand what you are saying about aspects - and them being more reliable. In comparison to house placements (esp. with an off time), that may even be the case. However, I am saying that sign placements is equally important, and sign placements do not get affected (except perhaps with Moon though) even with an incorrect time of birth. As to the importance of sign placements, already explained in a previous post.

Thanks for posting your chart. Feel free to not respond to any statement or question. What is the deal with your dad? Although the Sun is well situated in Leo, it has a close square to Saturn as well as to the outers. The mother is the more grounded and sensible of the two, but has had a hard life. The Moon is not a happy one in Virgo and also suffering in the 8th house. It's an earth Moon and its trine to earthy Saturn shows she longs or longed to create a stable and secure household/family life, but lives with the feeling, even guilt that that is not the case.

Not sure what you are up to studies wise and too lazy to go dig into your posts, but you should be ready to put in a fair bit of extra effort when it comes to making your career. The ruler of your career house, Mars, is in its fall (weak) in Cancer. However, it will get some help from Venus and Jupiter. However, the help is weak due to the wide orb with Jup., so it will take time and struggle for you to settle down. There might be some help involved from the partner - when the time comes. And, by this I don't mean just packing your lunch for you to take along, or get your shirts laundered, but actively helping out. It could be your own partner or someone that actually helps you stabilise your career and feels like one (Mars-Venus conj. in 7th). It could also be someone from the family given Venus rules your fourth house. Keep an open mind (I will too) and respond honestly, so that both of us can learn from each other.
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  #56  
Unread 09-24-2018, 01:51 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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I understand what you are saying about aspects - and them being more reliable. In comparison to house placements (esp. with an off time), that may even be the case. However, I am saying that sign placements is equally important, and sign placements do not get affected (except perhaps with Moon though) even with an incorrect time of birth. As to the importance of sign placements, already explained in a previous post.

Thanks for posting your chart. Feel free to not respond to any statement or question. What is the deal with your dad? Although the Sun is well situated in Leo, it has a close square to Saturn as well as to the outers. The mother is the more grounded and sensible of the two, but has had a hard life. The Moon is not a happy one in Virgo and also suffering in the 8th house. It's an earth Moon and its trine to earthy Saturn shows she longs or longed to create a stable and secure household/family life, but lives with the feeling, even guilt that that is not the case.

Not sure what you are up to studies wise and too lazy to go dig into your posts, but you should be ready to put in a fair bit of extra effort when it comes to making your career. The ruler of your career house, Mars, is in its fall (weak) in Cancer. However, it will get some help from Venus and Jupiter. However, the help is weak due to the wide orb with Jup., so it will take time and struggle for you to settle down. There might be some help involved from the partner - when the time comes. And, by this I don't mean just packing your lunch for you to take along, or get your shirts laundered, but actively helping out. It could be your own partner or someone that actually helps you stabilise your career and feels like one (Mars-Venus conj. in 7th). It could also be someone from the family given Venus rules your fourth house. Keep an open mind (I will too) and respond honestly, so that both of us can learn from each other.
Well I'll admit; what you're saying is right on target.

My dad has been a major jerk for most of my life. He's just barely starting to change for the better this year.
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Unread 09-24-2018, 03:04 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Well I'll admit; what you're saying is right on target.

My dad has been a major jerk for most of my life. He's just barely starting to change for the better this year.
Thanks for sharing. Well, the dad will come around. See the placement of the outers that affect your Sun (your father, also you) is in your 1st house, so it has mostly affected your formative (young) years, and due to the disillusioning and rebellious habits of your dad (perhaps also alco or something of the sort involved), you may also be rebellious and standoffish. Be kind to your mum and don't make it hard for her than it already is. The Moon in the 8th actually needs a shoulder to cry/lean on. Also, given the tight orb between your North Node and your Moon - it shows your common karma with your mum, which will help you both grow. The wife will also be a bit of a challenge with that Moon and also Mars on the Dsc. With the Saturn-Sun aspect there, your dad will come around though a bit later than he should have (Saturn delays). Would you say that that the challenge with your dad actually thrust more responsibility on your shoulders - like did you have to be more the man of the house at a very young age, or was there the granddad or an older uncle that took over that role?
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  #58  
Unread 09-24-2018, 03:12 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Thanks for sharing. Well, the dad will come around. See the placement of the outers that affect your Sun (your father, also you) is in your 1st house, so it has mostly affected your formative (young) years, and due to the disillusioning and rebellious habits of your dad (perhaps also alco or something of the sort involved), you may also be rebellious and standoffish.
Yes, my dad was a major alcoholic. He barely quit drinking like 3 months ago.

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Be kind to your mum and don't make it hard for her than it already is. The Moon in the 8th actually needs a shoulder to cry/lean on. Also, given the tight orb between your North Node and your Moon - it shows your common karma with your mum, which will help you both grow.
Good to know.

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The wife will also be a bit of a challenge with that Moon and also Mars on the Dsc. With the Saturn-Sun aspect there, your dad will come around though a bit later than he should have (Saturn delays). Would you say that that the challenge with your dad actually thrust more responsibility on your shoulders - like did you have to be more the man of the house at a very young age, or was there the granddad or an older uncle that took over that role?
Good to know that my dad will finally come around. This year I think he finally has. There was no grandad or uncle.. I would say that my mom became "the man" of the house honestly. I definitely had to be more responsible though. I often found myself regulating my dad and his behavior rather than him regulating me and my behavior. It's funny cuz my mom would often say that, "you know it feels like I live in a house with three kids, instead of a house with a husband and two kids." And often throughout my life I've been seen as like an old soul and mature person for my age, but still very immature though because I was still a kid that did kid things.

I actually really appreciate your analysis. I kind of take back what I said about houses and zodiac signs. I just need to study more charts and read more books.
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  #59  
Unread 09-24-2018, 03:27 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

I thank you, too, for sharing the info. readily as corroboration from a person really helps learn. Remember, Saturn on the Asc. means sensibility and hard work and Sun in Leo means confidence and conviction - two strong qualities you have been blessed with. However, everything is only energy, so remember to use that combination the right way, always let sensibility and hard work control the arrogance of Leo. That will bring you success. It helps to do what serves the purpose more than what serves the ego (which can be the bane of the Leo energy). Just remember that.

Good luck.
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  #60  
Unread 09-24-2018, 11:47 PM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Whilst I understand the reasoning you provide and in part also agree with the contention between the considering the first breath vs. the moment the soul enters the body, how does one decide when the latter happens? I have done little research on the latter, so if you have any sources (books or websites) you can share, would be nice.

Not only the above, but also the fact that people use different house systems, moves the planets to different houses. However, the sign placements regardless remain the same and are very important.

There are books authored by John Willner that have been purposefully spiritually closed of from the majority of the astrological community for a very long time. These books, specifically in this case "The perfect horoscope", doesn't necessary provide the toolkit to arrive at the exact correct ascendant but should give a broader overview and increase the probability of at least finding the correct ascendant Sign.

I would say that the sign placements of the planets are equally important to the aspects since the aspects builds on the foundation of the planets location/expression in the signs even though a cluster in combust or an elevated planet of course adds more to that foundational expression. In regards to house systems it is my understanding that the Placidus system is the original and correct design.

Y
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Unread 09-26-2018, 02:51 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

You're not entirely wrong. I agree aspects are way more important like look up the mars effect. However, there is an explanation why it is more important and why many people's sun or moon signs just don't fit them.

When looking at a birth chart, you're looking at five things: signs, houses, aspects, lunar mansions/nakshatras(further division of zodiac signs into smaller constellations) and house lord dynamics.

When assessing a chart there's two things astrologers assess: personality, and prediction.

When assessing personality: Two things more important than the signs are the lunar mansions and aspects. I don't want to make this post long so I don't want to explain lunar mansions in full detail but to give you an idea, a lunar mansion can have contradictory or very different qualities than that of a zodiac sign. Lunar mansion and zodiac wheels are different. One is constellation and the other is based on solstices and equinoxes(seasonal). I have seen lunar mansions be an amazing descriptor of personality (sun, moon asc). And to find out more about them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK8vzc4EjYI&t=2s

This is an example of her video exploration of the nakshatra/lunar mansion of hasta. She does a lot of research.

With that being said then you have aspects and this is what I would like to call a nurture reacting or reinforcing with nature. Which means, you'll be born with these traits but you will also be required/reinforced or put in circumstances to develop these traits which in some cases fully mitigates the zodiac sign.

Then you have houses. This is the nurturing aspects. This is where you will be in life. It will in some way or the other be physically manifest as opposed to zodiac signs which will be overpowered a lot of the time by lunar mansion and aspects.

But many say that if the sign isn't present in personality itself, it still shows up as how you use the planet in the house. For example, I have moon which is my 10th house ruler in 8th house in the sign of taurus where moon is exalted. I am studying psychology in one of the best schools in the country.
So in conclusion, zodiac sign is just the dignity/resources for the purpose of the house.

Think of it this way, let's say someone goes to the school MIT. which is the zodiac sign. In this case the house would be what the person studies. The planet would be the person itself. And the aspects to other planets would be the friends she/he makes that influence his/her personality.

So in this regard, let's say hypothetically MIT has the best psychology program, the person in venus would be happy in the 8th house if it is exalted in pisces because the school provides her/him with all they need to be successful. Now let's say Venus is then conjunct neptune(the artsy crew for example), she would identify with the neptunian crowd because that's the crowd she belongs to and will influence her very much throughout her time in university and their beliefs will rub off on her but she wouldn't be hanging out with them if she didn't identify with them in the first place.

I hope that makes sense and wasn't too complicated to understand. As for the lady gaga example, they say a benefic in his/her own sign can elevate a debilitated planet.
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  #62  
Unread 09-26-2018, 05:48 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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As for the lady gaga example, they say a benefic in his/her own sign can elevate a debilitated planet.
Looked at Gaga's chart and circled 4 areas where the 'genius' may come from. Mercury is making a wide conjunction to Jupiter (rules Pisces in traditional astrology), so according to theory above elevates it. Don't forget Mercury in Pisces also Quintile's Neptune, this by itself is an aspect of talent and genius, brought out in a Piscean way. This aspect is where I believe accounts for majority of the 'genius'. Jupiter, now blended with Mercury, is itself making a positive contact to Neptune. Lastly, Mercury is retrograde, making the mental process just really different, and this inward rumination may lead to exceptional artistic talent.

Note: I am using the Cap ASC chart as no way is she Gemini ASC to me.

Last edited by GemwDepth; 12-24-2018 at 12:04 PM.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 07:14 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Looked at Gaga's chart and circled 4 areas where the 'genius' may come from. Mercury is making a wide conjunction to Jupiter (rules Pisces in traditional astrology), so according to theory above elevates it. Don't forget Mercury in Pisces also Quintile's Neptune, this by itself is an aspect of talent and genius, brought out in a Piscean way. This aspect is where I believe accounts for majority of the 'genius'. Jupiter, now blended with Mercury, is itself making a positive contact to Neptune. Lastly, Mercury is retrograde, making the mental process just really different, and this inward rumination may lead to exceptional artistic talent.

Note: I am using the Cap ASC chart as no way is she Gemini ASC to me.
How is she not a gemini ascendant?
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Unread 09-26-2018, 07:25 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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How is she not a gemini ascendant?
Her bone structure and demeanor just seem more Capricorn to me. She's rather solemn despite the constant outfit changes. And I am familiar with the Gemini ascendant look and demeanor - they usually have a sparkle in their eyes, and an nervous, chatty energy in their demeanor. Don't wish to argue this though.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 07:54 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Her bone structure and demeanor just seem more Capricorn to me. She's rather solemn despite the constant outfit changes. And I am familiar with the Gemini ascendant look and demeanor - they usually have a sparkle in their eyes, and an nervous, chatty energy in their demeanor. Don't wish to argue this though.
No, I agree with you, I just wanted to know why. I didn't know she had another chart that could be her chart.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 08:21 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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No, I agree with you, I just wanted to know why. I didn't know she had another chart that could be her chart.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lady_Gaga

I usually ignore the ratings and use common sense (astrological) and intuition. I can't count the number of times famous figure's ASC were wrong.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 08:24 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lady_Gaga

I usually ignore the ratings and use common sense (astrological) and intuition. I can't count the number of times famous figure's ASC were wrong.
Which is another reason why I prefer aspects over everything else.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 08:30 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Which is another reason why I prefer aspects over everything else.
I was thinking it could be useful when you only know the date, and can't figure out the ASC.

In any case, I will experiment looking only at it with a blank canvas below and possibly report back findings, and situations this may be a useful technique.

Last edited by GemwDepth; 09-26-2018 at 11:37 PM.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 09:08 AM
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From my own astrological understanding and research, I think you can tell a lot more about a person and their life based on the aspects they have.

For example, someone's sun in Capricorn vs. their Sun aspect Saturn. I think the person with the Sun in aspect to Saturn is going have a more dry, practical, and Capricorny personality and view of the world than the person who actually has their sun in Capricorn.

When people say their sun, moon, and rising to describe their general personality, they have it all wrong...what they should say is their strongest sun aspect, strongest moon aspect, and strongest rising aspect.

I think zodiac signs and houses flavor the aspects and give a richer understanding. But the aspects are the actual bones and structure to a true discovery of a person's psyche.

Zodiac signs and houses are wishy washy. Especially since there's already a disagreement among astrologers about which zodiac system we should use, and what house system we should use.. but aspects are pretty straight forward. A square will always be 90 degrees. A conjunction will always be less than 10 degrees. A trine will always be 120. You can't really argue with that.
You are not far from the truth however you should dig deeper.

A person natally born with Capricorn sun feels comfortable there because that's thats their natal potential, which means they have no need to over exhibit their qualities.

A person with Sun conj Saturn is so to speak new to this aspect. It's something they have to learn. Even the conjunction is a hard aspect and its Saturn after all, the teacher. Also the house that Saturn falls in would be majorly important and exhibited as the person grows.

And again, someome might have Saturn trine Venus and be naturally mature about how they express love and deal with relationships. A person who has Venus square Saturn will also exhibit the same qualities in the latter part of their life, simply because it's a lesson they have to learn. It's just that it will manifest in a more turbulant way and chill out with age. However, both aspects have the same outcome, it's just the journey is different.

So I don't think it's correct to undermine the natal comfortable potential when it comes to planets in signs , to aspects.
One shows what we are naturally good at, the other shows the lessons that shape us too.
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Unread 09-26-2018, 11:12 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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A person natally born with Capricorn sun feels comfortable there because that's thats their natal potential, which means they have no need to over exhibit their qualities.

A person with Sun conj Saturn is so to speak new to this aspect. It's something they have to learn.

So I don't think it's correct to undermine the natal comfortable potential when it comes to planets in signs , to aspects. One shows what we are naturally good at, the other shows the lessons that shape us too.
In theory Yes. Yet Conjunction is enmeshment, you can't separate out the two energies. They are born enmeshed. To that note, Trines are gifts. They are born talents.

I think the learning and development part only applies to Squares (conflict), Oppositions (internal tension) and Sextile (potential capability that can still be developed).

Last edited by GemwDepth; 09-26-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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Unread 09-27-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Which is another reason why I prefer aspects over everything else.
You know I was thinking about the aspects thing you said and I've realized we should do a test to see whether people more so readily identify with their closest conjunction more readily than anything else in the chart. Of course it must involve: asc, sun, moon, Venus, mars or mercury.
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AppLeo (09-27-2018)
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Unread 09-27-2018, 07:02 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

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Originally Posted by love-thinking View Post
You know I was thinking about the aspects thing you said and I've realized we should do a test to see whether people more so readily identify with their closest conjunction more readily than anything else in the chart. Of course it must involve: asc, sun, moon, Venus, mars or mercury.
I kind of did in another thread... but yeah, I think it would be a great test. Because a conjunction, at least I've heard, is so powerful that the native cannot understand why people dont act the same way.
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Unread 09-28-2018, 10:04 AM
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Re: Planet Aspects are 100x more important than planets in houses or zodiac signs

That's a really good idea.

However, about the conjunction, it depends where it is. If it's to an angle it CAN be separated and it does get separated from time to time. But I've noticed the planet that conjuncts an angle, overtakes the angle.

And I don't believe this is true about the conjunction. It's not that they don't understand, but they think their way is better than other people's ways, so they try to preach it a lot. But they do understand. I suppose it depends on the person and how wide their perception is.
Two of my closest friends had 6 planets in capricorn, that's roughly 15 conjunctions. That's A LOT. Insanely goal driven, literally nothing can stop them. Unshakable. Both very understanding and supportive. So it all depends on the growth of the person, not so much the chart.
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