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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #26  
Unread 02-15-2014, 04:27 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.

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  #27  
Unread 02-15-2014, 04:32 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
Definitely a big personality. I went and read some part of the "symptoms" for histrionic temperament and I can definitely see parts of that in her. Definitely. However, she is not ALWAYS like that. Sometimes she is actually understanding and very likeable, but sometimes very selfish (especially when drinking).
Oh. I'm sure. And just to clarify, I didn't say she was histrionic; I just didn't have a better word for a lot of the character traits I saw in the chart. Sorry if I came off as slightly negative.

Quote:
She can be very much of a drama queen and very difficult to deal with, the ego gets absolutely massive when she drinks. She is not aggressive physically (at least not that I know of), but she is very passive aggressive and demanding and does not seem to see any wrong in herself and is unwilling to admit to anything like that. So she is definitely a difficult person to deal with when under the influence. She just does not have a lot of flexibility, she is very stubborn...She is also very jealous of others and likes to gossip...this comes off a lot when drinking, especially when getting tipsy.
The covetous I would associate with the state of her Jupiter and Venus, as has been previously mentioned by myself and others.

Quote:
When she does not drink, she loves to cook and indulge in great food, throw small "get togethers" and likes to be the center of attention in those.
Yes. Very social.

Quote:
But to mention, she was actually for years very good at her work. She received great compliments and always did her work really well. She was very neat, precise, excellent with learning new languages and did well in a social environment at work.
She has some really good qualities, too. That's for sure. I am sure she's a loyal friend and she's quite meticulous, which would certainly make her a good worker. She has Venus conjoined Mercury in the sign of Virgo, with Venus in a harmonious relationship with the midheaven, the latter loosely conjoined with Saturn. I think she takes her work very seriously and has leadership potential (Sun in Leo conjoined Pluto).
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  #28  
Unread 02-15-2014, 04:37 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Originally Posted by Yanel View Post
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
Possibly. That first step would to take either the converse or the complete lack of potential signatures, and assess the state of those individuals with such astrological configurations, whether many of them have been able to journey through life without developing any addictions.
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  #29  
Unread 02-15-2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks Ebenia.

The chart is so interesting, given the theme of this thread, because it does not contain the "traditional" markers for alcoholism.

With Moon so predominant, it is no surprise that the life is lived on emotion.
We might also keep in mind that the Moon indicates "ups and downs": manic-depressive -- or histrionic -- behavior is certainly within the realm.

In response to Frisiangirl, yes, Neptune was there in the heavens....but it was unavailable to astrologers. Therefore to diagnose this condition (as in this chart) would have to be done without benefit of Neptune. I purposely avoided mention of Neptune in my original post on this chart for that very reason (that everyone looks at Neptune nowadays...the "signature" planet for alcohol and other drugs.)

I think it is more useful to understand the things that go into a condition, or a direction in life (such as career), and develop the capacity to synthesize the chart in that fashion rather than to look for "signatures" in a chart. In other words, if we understand what the different astrological symbols actually signify in terms of living life, rather than simply as astrological symbols, we can more effectively see the personality and thus the life.

In this chart we find a powerful accumulation of "contributing factors" that -- if we understand alcoholism -- "synthesize" into a diagnosis of alcoholism. The psychological elements are all in place here.

Last edited by greybeard; 02-15-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 02-15-2014, 07:44 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The chart is so interesting, given the theme of this thread, because it does not contain the "traditional" markers for alcoholism.
Hi again,

In yourpost #16, you wrote:
Quote:
We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars...
I'm trying to understand but am still very confused.
You are saying that traditional astrology has no 'marker' for alcoholism as such; right?

From your previous posts it would seem that there has to be a harsh Moon (dependence) to account for any tendency towards alcoholistic tendencies. But how do you know that, 'by signal' Venus and/or Mars is going to lead to it? Venus could just as well refer to eating disorders; Mars to aggressive behaviour. Would there HAVE to be a harsh Jupiter or Saturn aspect
regarding excesses or coping difficulties to make 'the signal' work in one direction only?

Quote:
In response to Frisiangirl, yes, Neptune was there in the heavens....but it was unavailable to astrologers. Therefore to diagnose this condition (as in this chart) would have to be done without benefit of Neptune. I purposely avoided mention of Neptune in my original post on this chart for that very reason (that everyone looks at Neptune nowadays...the "signature" planet for alcohol and other drugs.)
When using a modern planet with its 'signature' of an addictive pattern, informative suggestion could be arrived at in an easier manner.

Quote:
I think it is more useful to understand the things that go into a condition, or a direction in life (such as career), and develop the capacity to synthesize the chart in that fashion rather than to look for "signatures" in a chart. In other words, if we understand what the different astrological symbols actually signify in terms of living life, rather than simply as astrological symbols, we can more effectively see the personality and thus the life.
In this chart we find a powerful accumulation of "contributing factors" that -- if we understand alcoholism -- "synthesize" into a diagnosis of alcoholism. The psychological elements are all in place here.


Yet, as I have always been given to understand, traditional astrology does not work 'psychologically' as modern interpretation inclines. I STILL cannot see where psychologically analysing the 'contributing factors' of a Venus or Mars will point to alcohol issues.
When thinking in terms of l-o-v-e, you wouldn't look to Saturn rather than Venus, even if the latter is only an 'astrological symbol', would you?

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-15-2014 at 07:48 PM. Reason: quotes not working correctly.
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  #31  
Unread 02-15-2014, 11:35 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanel View Post
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
Hi,
I'm still trying to work out the astrological factors that proved the chart offered WAS that of an alcoholic.

Elsewhere someone recently made the comment that traditional astrology is rather 'unfriendly' because it says it as it is. Modern astrology is 'more friendly' because it offers options. I guess this could be said to be the difference between fate and free will.

I'm almost wary of saying it, yet from a modern perspective the same harsh aspects that would be suggestive of a difficulty are the same aspects that could suggest how to stop it from becoming one. When speaking of an inner wall or control mechanism towards resistance, Saturn of/or Capricorn emphasis immediately come to (my) mind. However, as already has
been implied, the state of the other planets cannot be overlooked as all should work together to induce a state of good health and well-being.
Imho, it's the harsh aspects that are indicative of the effort required to deal with difficult situations and overcome the odds.

I once mentioned to a client that (s)he could look upon circumstances seen as 'difficult' as 'confronting challenges.' It offered an alternate perspective. Several months later I got a call with the excited message, "It works, it works."

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-15-2014 at 11:38 PM. Reason: English!
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  #32  
Unread 02-15-2014, 11:50 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Here are three charts of alcoholics. The 2nd one ignore the houses/ascendant as I don't know the birthtime.
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File Type: jpg 1.jpg (87.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 2.jpg (88.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 3.jpg (71.7 KB, 12 views)
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  #33  
Unread 02-16-2014, 12:05 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Here is another
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  #34  
Unread 02-16-2014, 04:30 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Oldtime astrology ("Traditional" astrology, including Hellenic, Islamic, Medieval, Renaissance/Reformation periods) really did not have an equivalent concept of "addiction", which we have developed over the past century/century and a half; of course they did recognize "wine-bibbers", for example, and those who ate to extreme excess, etc etc: but they classified all these under the term "gluttony" (whether food or wine), and they did have a primary significator for this "sin": it was Jupiter. Venus also played some role along these lines as well-a detrimented/afflicted Venus was often associated with "gluttony of pleasure" (what we might now call addiction to substances-and to food, and to sexual actions-based on pleasure, which we now understand as being related at least in part, to release of endorphins) So Jupiter, and somewhat Venus, were the oldtime significators for what we refer to now as "addictions".
I have always followed this signification of Jupiter for "excesses": of course now we have the important additional indications of the outer planets-particularly of Neptune-to give us even clearer insight into the causal factors of these types of health problems (I consider addiction to be a health problem)...
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  #35  
Unread 02-16-2014, 04:55 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Just expanding a bit on the Jupiter and Venus elements I briefly discussed in the previous post, lets take a quick look at the 4 charts of alcoholics posted by Kbell:

Chart 1: Jupiter elevated, detrimented in Gemini, afflicted by square from Mars; Venus elevated, detrimented in Aries, afflicted by close opposition from Moon

Chart 2: Jupiter elevated, strong by domicile in Pisces, but afflicted by partile opposition with Pluto; Venus strong by domicile but afflicted due to close square with Uranus

Chart 3: Venus strong by domicile in Libra but afflicted by opposition from Moon; Jupiter in a pitted degree; also, Sun is approaching an opposition to Jupiter (although since my maximum orb for opposition is 6 degrees, with the 7 degree difference found here I would not count an opposition between Jupiter and Sun as operative: however, others using wider orbs-especially for aspects involving the Sun-would)

Chart 4: Jupiter strong by domicile in Sagittarius but afflicted by square relationship with Uranus (also a quincunx involving Pluto); Venus afflicted by opposition relationship with Neptune
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  #36  
Unread 02-16-2014, 07:37 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Hi,
I'm still trying to work out the astrological factors that proved the chart offered WAS that of an alcoholic.

Elsewhere someone recently made the comment that traditional astrology is rather 'unfriendly' because it says it as it is. Modern astrology is 'more friendly' because it offers options. I guess this could be said to be the difference between fate and free will.

I'm almost wary of saying it, yet from a modern perspective the same harsh aspects that would be suggestive of a difficulty are the same aspects that could suggest how to stop it from becoming one. When speaking of an inner wall or control mechanism towards resistance, Saturn of/or Capricorn emphasis immediately come to (my) mind. However, as already has
been implied, the state of the other planets cannot be overlooked as all should work together to induce a state of good health and well-being.
Imho, it's the harsh aspects that are indicative of the effort required to deal with difficult situations and overcome the odds.

I once mentioned to a client that (s)he could look upon circumstances seen as 'difficult' as 'confronting challenges.' It offered an alternate perspective. Several months later I got a call with the excited message, "It works, it works."
Yes, Saturn and Capricorn are exactly the same things that come to my mind. But also Pluto. Pluto is power and control. Not power you can control in the way you can try to control other parts of your character, but still power connected with control that I imagine in the form of two polarities - either making you a passenger to the other side or giving you a staying power, a Scorpionic fixedness on this side. I could imagine a similar influence by Venus in an earth sign, although Taurus - an earth sign - is pretty much thought of as the sign of excess.

The harsh aspects really can turn tension into a transforming power. But still, a person can never really win over an addiction. The possibility of this tensed source inside him/her to again show its other side is just as high, isn't it? I think that it's very difficult to completely let go, especially if physical health is in the picture.
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Last edited by Yanel; 02-16-2014 at 07:45 AM.
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  #37  
Unread 02-16-2014, 04:33 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I have Jupiter in Gemini on the ASC and square uranus/Pluto/Mars in the 5th; mars is close sextile to Neptune in the 6th. I am not remotely over weight (in good shape and active) but did have a battle with alcohol in my early 20s. It wasn't an addiction however, mostly drank out of boredom as I was in the military far from home in remote places. It was more of a crutch to deal with loneliness (not lack of friends but intimacy). Once back home I eventually gave it up on my own and now just have one beer here or there. In the old days I was able to drink anyone under the table and still retain all my faculties but never had a physical addiction to it. The negative Jupiter aspects are supposed to indicate one who can over-indulge and the Mars/Neptune sextile the opportunity to also over indulge in drugs/alcohol. Never a drug user.
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  #38  
Unread 02-16-2014, 08:11 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanel View Post
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
Hi. I think that the best way to overcome any kind of dependency or destructive tendency is to attune to one's solar vitality. Obviously if one has Sun in Pisces or a Close Sun Neptune aspect, then this needs to be done with care, because attuning to the Sun is more likely to awaken escapist tendencies. A Sun Saturn aspect can bring a sense of defeat which can fuel alcoholism, although it can also bring solid boundaries and self-discipline. It is the Sun which, when functioning healthily, stands in the centre and orchestrates the other functions so that the ultimate purpose of one's life can be realised - it reigns in any excessive dependency of the Moon or Neptune, and excesses of Venus or Jupiter, any excessive demands on the self made by Saturn, and any excessive sense of being a victim caused by Chiron, Pluto or again Neptune, and so on. I think it is relevant here that in myth, the Sun god Apollo was the curse-breaker.
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Unread 02-17-2014, 04:56 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Again, I think Neptune in a stressful aspect to a personal planet is often but not always involved.

kbell, of the 4 charts you posted:

1. Neptune-ruled sun in Pisces square Mars. Drinks to relieve inner pressure.

2. Neptune square Moon-Saturn, opposite sun-Mercury. Depressed feelings, self-medication.

3. Uranus square sun-Mars is the big news of this chart, but note Neptune conjunct Mercury. This person probably drinks to relieve the inner tension.

4. Neptune square Mars, opposite Venus. Saturn-moon-Mercury suggests depressed thinking>>> self-medication.
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Unread 02-17-2014, 10:30 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Again, I think Neptune in a stressful aspect to a personal planet is often but not always involved.

kbell, of the 4 charts you posted:

1. Neptune-ruled sun in Pisces square Mars. Drinks to relieve inner pressure.

2. Neptune square Moon-Saturn, opposite sun-Mercury. Depressed feelings, self-medication.

3. Uranus square sun-Mars is the big news of this chart, but note Neptune conjunct Mercury. This person probably drinks to relieve the inner tension.

4. Neptune square Mars, opposite Venus. Saturn-moon-Mercury suggests depressed thinking>>> self-medication.
From post #2:
Quote:
If you want to look up charts of alcoholics, I recommend the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst. Many celebrities had this affliction; and the data bank also indicates ordinary citizens with this problem.
Being as I am () I put Dr. Farr's post #34 to the test .
I checked 15 horoscopes on the 1st page of astrodatabank, in addition to those already provided on this thread.
Of the 15 people (known and unknown to me) only one chart showed no adverse aspect from Jupiter to a personal planet. I did not look further at any Saturn influence.

Jupiter's link as 'excess' is way beyond what would be considered above average in astrological research.

I also checked Neptune influences to a personal planet. Here I did expect to find many links because the charts are of celebrities and Neptune is largely associated as 'astrological symbol' in the 'icon' status through which they were known (artist,model,novelist, etc.).
Of the 15 charts, 3 showed no aspect between Neptune and a personal planet. I was not surprised about Buzz Aldrin, but I didn't expect Alice Cooper to be one of them.

Neptune's influence is also above what would be considered average.

This small exercise sheds new light for me. I am thankful for Dr. Farr's explanation of its traditional nature.
The question that arises for me now is whether alcoholism can be shown by THE ADDITION of Neptune's influence, or there is sufficient evidence without it?

Jupiter rules the liver; the physical complaint from which many alcoholics
eventually suffer. Is it the addictive status of Neptune that becomes a decisive factor that a causal drinker is not an alcoholic, and vice versa? Would there have to be an astrological link, as well as aspect, between the two?

I'll have to go back and re-check further (aah! for a retro.Mercury in Taurus ) .

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-17-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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  #41  
Unread 02-17-2014, 02:49 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Repeating myself, it goes back to WHY people drink. That will determine what planets will be involved as transits will then trigger the problem.
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Unread 02-17-2014, 08:26 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Repeating myself, it goes back to WHY people drink. That will determine what planets will be involved as transits will then trigger the problem.
I agree with you. Charts show all kinds of different inner stresses for people. People drink for different reasons: self-medication, to be part of a group of friends/cultural pressures, or to take the fast-track to the depths of human existence.

Once people start drinking excessively, some will get addicted but some won't. I believe there is a genetic predisposition with the former.
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  #43  
Unread 02-18-2014, 04:18 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I think we do need to look at Neptune as a very significant factor for addictions, as well as Jupiter and, to some extent, Venus: probably these are the most significant 3 of the planets as potential markers for addictions, and I think bringing in also the Moon and Mars, would round out the indications quite well (of course the South Node and crescent-on-cross Lilith, are never to be excluded in such considerations)
...I notice that Lilith is mising from all of the charts posted on this thread: I'd like to see where Lilith (crescent on cross Lilith) is and connections to it, in these charts.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:40 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

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Repeating myself, it goes back to WHY people drink. That will determine what planets will be involved as transits will then trigger the problem.
I agree with you. Jupiter is the planet of happiness. Go figure.
My small test was to see if Jupiter would be adversely aspected in the chart of those recognised as alcoholics and/or any relevance of Neptune. It wasn't 'psychological' of nature. The link to a personal planet might provide more info. in that direction?

Jupiter is associated with good health and well-being. Where there's a predisposition towards a physical complaint, one might expect to find a harsh Jupiter, don't you think?
As a 'control' test, I took another physical complaint. First thought that came to mind was deafness. Checking 15 charts on 1st page of astrodatabank again, I wanted to see if Jupiter would be as relevant as a 'health' complaint as, astrologically, it appears to have little to do with the ears. Neptune, however, rules the labyrinth of the inner ear.

It proved to be more difficult as Jupiter made several aspects within a chart to the personal planets. My work pad got a bit messed up! It may be easier to say that there were 5 charts without harsh aspect to Jupiter. This would still be considered above average.
Neptune, however, was completely different. Only 1 chart showed no harsh aspect from the personal planets with Neptune; as did Saturn, also considered an aspect of deafness.
Mercury, ruler of the ears as per 'hearing' was strongly in evidence.

What does this little test prove? That people suffering from deafness have a tendency towards alcoholism that cannot be controlled????

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  #45  
Unread 02-18-2014, 10:34 AM
MissScorpio MissScorpio is offline
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I have become very aware of the 8th house when looking at alcohol and drug issues. I have three friends that have alcohol and drug issues and all of them have a stellium of planets posited in 8th house.
I believe that strong water aspects can feel the urge to escape through alcohol because thoughts are so reactive and personal,it is easier to dwell in self pity, especially if there is no earth or nothing to ground one with. The Pluto conjunct Sun in 8th does it for me and with the Sun being in Leo emotions are very dramatic causing one to reach for the bottle. Because addictions are hard to bypass if you have an obsessive soul or mind. I know this being a Scorpio myself, I am lucky to have my Sun in the sixth as it reminds me of the intense dangers that I could so easily fall into and have suffered with addictive rituals myself.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 11:36 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I think also that Jupiter is ultimately associated with confidence and often speaks about how much we feel we can get away with - for example, criminals may have strong Jupiter because they believe it is their right to be acting in a certain manner or taking what they believe to be theirs, it is Saturn that keeps hold of reality check. What is interesting is that both Jupiter and the Moon are in their own houses but because Jupiter is in opposition perhaps the feelings of this Moon just compel the urge to let go and act on what they feel comfortable and happy with, especially as reactions are so quick with Aries, but the Jupiter Opposition, the glass is never really full enough, hard to keep a balance with Libra as they constantly oppose each other, it's that awkward tension of not knowing when to stop..
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Unread 02-18-2014, 04:27 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Jupiter indicates areas of excess and over indulgence - some people have an alcohol problem not because they are physically addicted to it, but because they over-do it and can't handle themselves when they do. If they are continually in an environment where excess is the rule and peer pressure is present, then they may end up with a problem that is more emotional or psychological, and not physical at all. They can quit, physically, with no problem, but not until they are removed from the environment that fosters it.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:52 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

I agree. Jupiter can be the energy of "if a little is good, a lot is better."

Sort of the "Eat, drink, and be merry," or "Wine, women, and song" tropes.

If one drink is good, five should be even better-- especially at a feel-good event like a party.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 10:30 PM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I agree. Jupiter can be the energy of "if a little is good, a lot is better."

Sort of the "Eat, drink, and be merry," or "Wine, women, and song" tropes.

If one drink is good, five should be even better-- especially at a feel-good event like a party.

If one woman is good, five must be better also. Hmm.
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Unread 02-19-2014, 01:55 AM
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Re: I have found the signature for alcoholism

There are men who think that way. Call it polyamory, promiscuity, playing the field, or.......

In either sex, look for a Venus-Mars aspect, plus Jupiter in the mix.

No kidding.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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