Morality of Predicting Death?

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The following question has today been posted on the horary forum :smile:
Hello all,
I am an amateur astrologer who has been using natal astrology for about 25 years now. I don't have any experience with horary astrology, so if someone would like to comment on my horary chart, it would be most welcome. :smile: Living to an old age shows up in my natal chart, so tonight I asked this question. All data is included with the attachment. Thanks in advance for any replies.
The querent is clearly interested to learn whether they are likely to live up to or past their 80's http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68322

The querent has added
If my natal chart is needed, I can post that as well....thanks! :smile:

One assumes that some would consider answering such a question as an immoral act

However, the querent has asked the question and presumably the question itself is not considered immoral
 

waybread

Well-known member
JA at some level we can distinguish people's questions from the people. At another level a question is an expression of a person, and as such it could come from ignorance of its implications, morality in a wider sphere, or other issues.

In any situation involving an expert and a client, doctor-patient, or comparable information/power differential, the onus is always upon the person claiming the greater expertise-- not on the person asking the question.

This is kind of Applied Ethics 101, if not the remedial class.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
JA at some level we can distinguish people's questions from the people. At another level a question is an expression of a person, and as such it could come from ignorance of its implications, morality in a wider sphere, or other issues.

In any situation involving an expert and a client, doctor-patient, or comparable information/power differential, the onus is always upon the person claiming the greater expertise-- not on the person asking the question.

This is kind of Applied Ethics 101, if not the remedial class.
So there's no fault in asking the question :smile:

And according to your comments on this thread, an astrologer answering such a question commits an immoral act
 

waybread

Well-known member
We can hardly blame astro-novices or non-astrologers for asking questions that aren't illegal, immoral, insensitive or trolling. They aren't posing as the experts here. The burden is on the astrologer either to decline to respond or else (more generically for non-death questions) to respond in ways that are morally sound, sensitive, and appropriate.

Tim has effectively banned OPs and responses where the OPer claims to feel suicidal.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
We can hardly blame astro-novices or non-astrologers for asking questions that aren't illegal, immoral, insensitive or trolling. They aren't posing as the experts here. The burden is on the astrologer either to decline to respond or else (more generically for non-death questions) to respond in ways that are morally sound, sensitive, and appropriate.

Tim has effectively banned OPs and responses where the OPer claims to feel suicidal.
The actual clarification posted states :smile:
All,
Paul said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_
...we cannot state that astrologers' codees of ethics expressly prohibit anything...for the subject of prediction, death in particular, that is just not quite true. The emphasis is on the patients' well being...

By request, I am posting to clarify the current position of the AW Forum on death predictions. This is not to discourage the conversation in this thread but to simply clarify the current "as is" situation on the Forum.

The forum rules of behavior are:
Quote:
Your participation on this forum is allowed and welcomed as long as you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually explicit, harmful to young people, hateful, racist, deliberately offensive, homophobic, threatening, defamatory, damaging, or otherwise violative of any laws. Respect of other members is expected at all times. No talking down to, being rude, dismissing of people, trying to shut someone down if they don't agree, or passive aggressively drawing people out to respond negatively.

There is nothing in the rules that forbids death prediction. However, ANY prediction needs to follow these rules of behavior. As you see, this is mostly a "judgement call" from the Moderator team as to the nature of the posting. While intent of the posting can not be known, the EFFECT of what is posted can be seen, so even postings with the best intent may be removed because they are having a negative effect.

And so it is with death predictions. If someone is keeping to astrology and has an astrologically reasoned, solid case for a death prediction an OP requested, that person can post their opinion about the POSSIBLE death of that person. In the same way an insurance company can refer to tables of the POSSIBLE deaths of the person's they insure, so astrologers can give their estimations of a POSSIBLE death date. This is with the understanding that this is simply an OPINION and NOT some type of "absolute truth". It is the OP's responsibility to decide whether they want to believe all, some, or none of the poster's death prediction.

As has been mentioned, there ARE some branches of astrology (particularly in traditional astrology) where death predictions are perfectly normal. Forbidding death predictions as a class is unfair to those who want to practice these branches of astrology. However, it is the sole judgement of the Moderator Team whether those death predictions are acceptable or are a violation of the AW policy rules for Forum behavior.

Following up,

Tim
 

waybread

Well-known member
Thanks for sharing your views, again, JA. I could equally copy and paste posts from Authoritative Persons to support my perspective.
 

Paul_

Account Closed
We can hardly blame astro-novices or non-astrologers for asking questions that aren't illegal, immoral, insensitive or trolling. They aren't posing as the experts here.

I wonder who is posing as an expert here? I also wonder why we might blame astrologers/experts for answering questions that aren't illegal, immoral, insensitive or trolling?

The burden is on the astrologer either to decline to respond or else (more generically for non-death questions) to respond in ways that are morally sound, sensitive, and appropriate.

Right, but, presumably, as determined by that poster, in accordance with the forum rules as upheld by the moderator.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Paul: As you know, I have requested via PM to Tim that the rules be changed for the ethical reasons I, Mandy and (earlier) several others identified. The rules have been modified in the past and can be modified in the future. There was a huge debate both amongst the moderators and on the "feedback" board about one memorable topic; with members in both groups taking opposing stands. Somehow the dust settled on that one.

Tim's response on death prediction to me was a "wait and see" attitude. If the rules do not change, the least I can do is raise the ethical issues in the hopes that some readers may take my principled stand to heart.

Thankfully, I've got your own arguments to bolster mine from your previous posts.
You wrote:

"I think rank beginners shouldn't be doing anything at all for clients. They should be honing their skills. That could mean reading every book they can get their hands on, being under a kind of 'master-student' or apprentice relationship with another astrologer, or educating themselves through an astrological school. They can of course look at charts, but, in my view, prediction is probably not something that is under the skillset of a beginner."

"Do I really need to KEEP saying I am all for advocating a ban on death prediciton on forums?"

"You also focus on online forums no matter how many times I say that I am all for a ban on death prediction for forums."

"I am not arguing that people have a 'right' to predict death willy nillly..."

"I do not think astrology is a science nor astrologers infallible... "

"astrology is not infallible and astrologers certainly not so. For medical concerns I always say a person should see their GP anywayastrology is not infallible and astrologers certainly not so. For medical concerns I always say a person should see their GP anyway.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Paul: As you know, I have requested via PM to Tim that the rules be changed for the ethical reasons I, Mandy and (earlier) several others identified.

The rules have been modified in the past and can be modified in the future. There was a huge debate both amongst the moderators and on the "feedback" board about one memorable topic; with members in both groups taking opposing stands. Somehow the dust settled on that one
That was the emotive DISCUSSING HOMOSEXUALITY ON THE FORUM topic at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51308
Tim's response on death prediction to me was a "wait and see" attitude. If the rules do not change, the least I can do is raise the ethical issues in the hopes that some readers may take my principled stand to heart.

Thankfully, I've got your own arguments to bolster mine from your previous posts.
You wrote:
Regarding Paul_'s comments, keep in mind that those comments were intended SOLELY to apply SPECIFICALLY to 'rank beginners'

Clearly, not all members of our forum are 'rank beginners'.

Indeed, is there any evidence that armies of nameless 'rank beginners' are posting multiple 'death clock predictions' on our forum?
:smile:
 

Paul_

Account Closed
I am aware, obviously, of what I myself said.

You'll also recall, though you appear to have chosen not to quote this bit, that my ethical rules that I was describing were not instructions on how I think the forum should be run, or moderated.

Indeed many of my points were about astrologers offline, not those on forums.

I have clarified precisely what I mean by my "all for a ban on death prediction on forums" quote now.

To summarise: I fully understand, in terms of practicality, it may be better to ban death predictions online, but to be clear, these are not driven primarily by issues of ethics - if you can't be bothered moderating them, and it can be exhausting, and can't have time to endless establish where the line is, then I am all for someone saying one way or another to ban it completely. Especially as there are so many rank beginners with no clue.

That said, this forum as of right now allows death prediction as dictated by whatever context the moderators recognise. Whilst you may campaign for change, we should not assume your campaign will succeed, or that it will fail. Let's work with what we currently have.

I still wonder who these astro-experts are that you're referring to, and why it is unethical to answer something which you accept is not illegal, immoral, insensitive or trolling.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Actually, JA, I was thinking of the copyright and plagiarism discussion. But you're correct that other issues come up and sometimes the rules change as a result. On this issue, I live in hope. Also, Paul posted twice that he favoured a ban on death prediction, not on the mods doing a preliminary sort-and-pitch of who could and who couldn't based on their credentials.

Paul, I think you've just reset your goal posts with your latest, but no matter. I don't recognize what I wrote in what you said I wrote or think I wrote about what you wrote or thought you wrote......

Yikes. I think Uranus square Pluto has finally gotten to this forum.
 
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Paul_

Account Closed
Actually, JA, I was thinking of the copyright and plagiarism discussion. But you're correct that other issues come up and sometimes the rules change as a result. On this issue, I live in hope. Also, Paul posted twice that he favoured a ban on death prediction, not on the mods doing a preliminary sort-and-pitch of who could and who couldn't based on their credentials.

Paul, I think you've just reset your goal posts with your latest, but no matter.

Yes, and I clarified what I meant by this.

As I clarified, twice already, this will be my third, I am all for a ban if a moderator wanted one. What I mean by this is that if it was me running this forum I would probably ban death predictions - but not out of ethical considerations for the judgement, but more so for practical concerns about not wanting to have to arbitrate in each individual case. [edited by request - Moderator]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
... if it was me running this forum I would probably ban death predictions .... for practical concerns about not wanting to have to arbitrate in each individual case.

Regardless of your motive and slight message-creep (i.e., shift) this sounds like agreement.

Three big factors:

1. The moderators have no way of knowing whether a horoscope reader knows what s/he's doing. As per your statements:

I think rank beginners shouldn't be doing anything at all for clients. They should be honing their skills. That could mean reading every book they can get their hands on, being under a kind of 'master-student' or apprentice relationship with another astrologer, or educating themselves through an astrological school. They can of course look at charts, but, in my view, prediction is probably not something that is under the skillset of a beginner." .

2. The moderators have no way of assessing the age, mental health, veracity, or emotional vulnerability of the OPer. This could be a suicidal minor posting a horary question, giving no indication of identity or circumstances.

3. Indications to the contrary, the moderators are not omnisicent, omnipresent, omnipotent, &c. It is way too big an expectation to assume they are capable of moderating the death prediction threads case-by-case 24/7 Occasionally they go off line, sleep, eat, go shopping, &c.

Therefore, you are on record as favouring the banning of death predictions-- setting aside momentarily other issues that my 3 points do not address.

This is consistent with your earlier statements:

Quote:
"Do I really need to KEEP saying I am all for advocating a ban on death prediciton on forums?"

Quote:
"You also focus on online forums no matter how many times I say that I am all for a ban on death prediction for forums."

Quote:
"I am not arguing that people have a 'right' to predict death willy nillly..."

Quote:
"I do not think astrology is a science nor astrologers infallible... "

Real simple.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Three big factors:

1. The moderators have no way of knowing whether a horoscope reader knows what s/he's doing. As per your statements:


2. The moderators have no way of assessing the age, mental health, veracity, or emotional vulnerability of the OPer. This could be a suicidal minor posting a horary question, giving no indication of identity or circumstances.

3. Indications to the contrary, the moderators are not omnisicent, omnipresent, omnipotent, &c. It is way too big an expectation to assume they are capable of moderating the death prediction threads case-by-case 24/7 Occasionally they go off line, sleep, eat, go shopping, &c.....
In that case, given the circumstances outlined, then ANY astrological comment could be outlawed for the same reasons FROM ANY AND ALL ASTROLOGICAL FORUMS or do you view this as yet another allegedly 'slippery slope' :smile:
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Regardless of your motive and slight message-creep (i.e., shift) this sounds like agreement.

Three big factors:

1. The moderators have no way of knowing whether a horoscope reader knows what s/he's doing. As per your statements:



2. The moderators have no way of assessing the age, mental health, veracity, or emotional vulnerability of the OPer. This could be a suicidal minor posting a horary question, giving no indication of identity or circumstances.

3. Indications to the contrary, the moderators are not omnisicent, omnipresent, omnipotent, &c. It is way too big an expectation to assume they are capable of moderating the death prediction threads case-by-case 24/7 Occasionally they go off line, sleep, eat, go shopping, &c.

Therefore, you are on record as favouring the banning of death predictions-- setting aside momentarily other issues that my 3 points do not address.

This is consistent with your earlier statements:

Quote:
"Do I really need to KEEP saying I am all for advocating a ban on death prediciton on forums?"

Quote:
"You also focus on online forums no matter how many times I say that I am all for a ban on death prediction for forums."

Quote:
"I am not arguing that people have a 'right' to predict death willy nillly..."

Quote:
"I do not think astrology is a science nor astrologers infallible... "

Real simple.



I think what the moderators do now is fine. It appears to me that you want to ban death prediction because it is against your beliefs or what you think is right...

As I've said from the beginning, if you are not involved in it and it doesn't hurt anyone outside of that transaction, why is there a need for you to regulate it.


[deleted possibly trolling questions by request - Moderator]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Marinka, one point I've made repeatedly is the ethical principle shared throughout developed societies, of protecting their most vulnerable members. Possibly this is observed less manifestly than idealistically, but a duty of care is nevertheless the objective.

Don't you imagine that insensitive, inexperienced chart-readers could hurt vulnerable people within the chart reading? Do you just turn a blind eye, shrugging that we have no duty beyond our own body and personal concerns? And by analogy, maybe you won't harm anyone by speeding through a red light, but maybe you will. Should your community take that risk? And can it realistically exempt you from a law it makes to protect people crossing the street? Or does it have to set one traffic law for everybody?

Yes, you are your brother's keeper.

Your attitude sounds almost anti-social to me. I don't accuse you of this, but ask, can you explain why it's not? The definitions vary, but basically it means behaving in ways that can negatively impact on other people, with no regard for the impacts and their consequences.

What about the possibility that a deeply depressed teenager asks for a horary death prediction, but you don't know this about the person: all you see is the question and the chart? Or many other problematic examples I could suggest.

Do you feel you have any duty beyond satisfying your own intellectual curiosity? Yet this is an illusion. How can you get the feedback enabling you to learn from your possible errors in interpretation? On another thread, a 50 year-old man wonders if he will live past 80. If he lives that long, 30+ years later, the feedback will be meaningless. If he doesn't live long, he will not return to tell you.

If your objective is to learn death prediction techniques, you don't need to practice on living people who could get harmed out of your advice. New medical students, after all, learn anatomy on cadavers, not living patients.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
 

waybread

Well-known member
In that case, given the circumstances outlined, then ANY astrological comment could be outlawed for the same reasons FROM ANY AND ALL ASTROLOGICAL FORUMS or do you view this as yet another allegedly 'slippery slope' :smile:

JA, how many times do I need to address this? I am not refering to "any and all" astrological comments. [deleted joking comments which may be misinterpreted - Moderator]
 
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Paul_

Account Closed
Waybread

[deleted possibly trolling question - Moderator]

I am not on record as voting for a ban on death prediction as you're trying to insinuate. All my posts fall under the umbrella of the topic the OP referred to - this is not a discussion about rule changes.

I am on record as saying were I a moderator I would probably ban it for practical reasons. But I am not. Therefore my practical concerns may not apply for the moderators here.

Please do not try to turn the context of my posts into something which was never discussed here.

If you wish to campaign for rule changes, I suggest a new thread. Certainly do not assume that replies here pertain to a context of wanting rules changed here because for clarity mine do not, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't imply they are. They are statements of what I would do - not what I want others to do.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
In that case, given the circumstances outlined, then ANY astrological comment could be outlawed for the same reasons FROM ANY AND ALL ASTROLOGICAL FORUMS or do you view this as yet another allegedly 'slippery slope' :smile:

I said this previously but it just sank in the sea of arguments. I seriously thought very much equal to the entire forum needed to shut down and the entire history and practice of astrology should be abandoned and removed, according to some people's belief as if Astrology only as good as low class psychology. I really feel in great extend that all the books I collected in my library and all the hard working and talented predictive astrologers are now being like fool in some people's standard. To some extend including the sponsors of our forum...As I said many times before, to me a great insult to astrologers in large.

However this post is about morality on death prediction. Along the argument, it sounds like all predictive works don't work.
 
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